TM 2021 Large Normal 2: Wikipedia Integer Facts (Over)

[OkaPoka]

this is not to say im not efforting/trying to win

i am

but doing what i did last game is not that interesting to me

[mastina]

Mastina's only contributions have been a wrong push on LLD and a wrong push on me. I'm being charitable there.

Today I learned Titus believes that scumreads are the only thing which counts as contributions according to Titus and that making repeated full readslists including hard defense of players like DGB doesn't count as contributions to her.

Because that's apparently what's required for Titus to genuinely believe this given my posting is far, far, FAR from just "Titus is scum, LLD is scum".

[mastina]

Also look how pure that Ythan wagon is

Vote Count 1.19

Ythan

(8):

OkaPoka

, Luca Blight, Dannflor, Cephrir, Lady Lambdadelta,

Titus

,

AGar

, innocentvillager

Lady Lambdadelta

(5): DrippingGoofball, Xtoxm, mastina, Ythan, jjh927

DrippingGoofball

(2): Dunnstral, Bell

Bell

(1): Winter Flakes

AGar

(1): Hopkirk

Not Voting

(1): Almost50

You mean the wagon which has 2-3 of my scumreads on it?

Yes, Luca is town; yes, IV is town; yes, Cephrir is town; yes, Dannflor and LLD are flipped town.

But the wagon's far from pure.

[mastina]

Why isn't Oka voting anyone

Because he's scum.

Why aren't you obvtowning?

[OkaPoka]

although if you are a meta nerd and now that im thinking about my own past

also probably why titus townreads me

my play here is probably closer to the later days of titus vs alisae. i had my own opinions but i was much more deferential. maybe meta is a circle

[mastina]

tell me what am i shading iv about exactly

The play around end of day regarding LLD/DGB.

this is a weird take i think? wasn't titus a wagon that had like 5 or 6 votes on it at one point?

She never got above four.

In fact, the response to the worst's wagon is the LLD wagon shrinking rather than growing. Another sign that Bell may not be scum.

can you explain why this is a sign bell might not be scum? i don't think i'm following the logic

Bell is the worst's slot.

worstie was wagoned up to 6-7 votes. (Oka switched off.)
There wasn't a counterwagon. To the contrary, the lead wagon shrunk.
Which means either Bell is scum and scum didn't put any effort into saving him or Bell is town.

Tho I now am thinking the former over the latter off of Bell's lackluster play and worstie's lackluster play before that and Dannflor wanting to look more at Bell and for that matter: nobody having announced that they were investigated by Dannflor.

Scum killed Dannflor; Dannflor would never holster; Dannflor wasn't going to be blocked by a town role (jk would've saved him so obviously wasn't jk'd, rb would never target him), Dannflor wasn't going to be blocked by a scum role (scum aren't going to rb and nk the same target, scum can't jk Dann while killing him), and yet nobody has come forward to say that a Neapolitan, AKA, Dannflor, targeted them.

Since nobody has come forward to say they were Dann's N1 target, it leads me to believe that scum was his N1 target, and Bell was someone he was quite likely to be targeting with his role.

[OkaPoka]

lol ok i dont feel like you understood my complaint about iv's play then?

[Ythan]

Consider clarifying!

[OkaPoka]

im more interested in mastina's interpretation of my shade

[Ythan]

Cool cool.

[OkaPoka]

maybe if we had like 48 hours id clarify but we have time to drink some pina coladas

[mastina]

unless your reason for hard TRing those people is primarily because of the fact that they took stances on the two slots?

Partially, yes.

Fact: yesterday was TvT between LLD and DGB.
Fact: there were players who hard-pushed one of the two as scum while hard-defending the other as town.

Ask yourself: when it is a TvT fight, what do scum get from hard-defending one while hard-pushing the other? They don't get anything; regardless, they come out as discredited because while they were half-right, they were so strongly half-wrong that they lose a lot of their power/authority on future days when it is revealed as TvT.

Also, scum didn't care who died in the two. Why would scum want LLD so strongly dead rather than DGB so strongly dead? Why would scum want DGB so strongly dead rather than LLD so strongly dead? Both are incredibly strong town players who have similar clout to them, so one's death D1 is just as good as the other. To scum, due to it being TvT, it makes no difference which of them dies, the town loses a strong scumhunter regardless. So scum have no incentive, no motive, to fake a scumread on one and generate a sincere defense of the other. They gain nothing from it.

Scum have no reason to defend one town in the TvT and attack the other given who the players in question were.
Town, being uninformed, however, had no way of knowing it was TvT. If a town player genuinely believed it was SvT, they would defend the T and attack the perceived S.

So the players who strongly took a TvS stance in DGB vs LLD are disproportionately likely to be town.

The players who didn't take a stance, or took the stance that it was TvT, on the other hand, can both contain scum.

[OkaPoka]

yo ythan when u are catching up do you ever just skip/skim my posts because i post so much

[OkaPoka]

i used to write walls a lot but those got skipped ~ i do wonder if i swung the pendulum to far and breaking my posts up like this leads to skipping

[Ythan]

I don't think so.

Pedit oh I gotchu, nah I like little posts

[OkaPoka]

hmm okay

i guess ill wait until mastina finishes

[Almost50]

Fact: yesterday was TvT between LLD and DGB.
Fact: there were players who hard-pushed one of the two as scum while hard-defending the other as town.

I actually wanted to engage you 9and everyone else) about this. D1 we had a wagon on hercule, then DGB vs LLD, then Ythan, then Titus, then back to DGB vs LLD. Now we know DGB vs LLD was Town, and I will concede Ythan's reaction to my fake guilty on him was kinda townie. If that's the case, why did Titus get wagoned at all? I don't get how the game went from Town vs Town to 3rd Town and then a 4th wagon sprung on "unknown".

Notes: I call Titus "unknown" because I don't want to you (mastina) to argue she's Scum and all. Town or Scum doesn't really matter here. Why did Titus get wagoned after 3 Town wagons that all looked very "doable"? I am also ignoring the hercule wagon as it would have no bearing on the answer to my question, since it happened before the DGB vs LLD thing, although if hercule (now Luca) is also Town then it's even more bizarre that we'd have run 4 townies in a row and then a 5th wagon sprung on Titus still.

So, I guess I want someone to theorize what Scum have been doing exactly on D1, cuz I fail to imagine what the plan was.

[mastina]

But Titus is just scum this game and has been from her very first post.

The one where she went v/la......

Yeah, and? I explained that in the case.

so mastina you think it's Ythan/Titus scumpair?

Noooooooo, Titus is very much not scum with Ythan and for that matter, not scum with Bell.

Titus very well could be scum, but if she is, it's not with either of them.
Ythan I don't think is scum at all, regardless of Titus's alignment, but if Titus were scum Ythan would go from "I don't think he's scum" to "locktown".
Bell I do think is scum, but I don't think he's scum with Titus.

@mastina, Explain your Ythan read please.

The one and only way I can see Ythan as scum is if his toxicity is being used as a mask for being scum, a la Xtoxm's from last game. However, overall, Ythan's given a bunch that doesn't feel like it comes from scum. He has a bunch of trash pushes, but he has made dozens upon dozens OF pushes, and while most are trash, some of them were actually really damn good. And even the fact that he has so many pushes is a positive indicator. In this game, scum have no reason to push like 10 different people; town however can throw shit at the wall to see what sticks. Also, overall, just gut about him, plus a similarity to last game. Ythan looks a lot like he did last game.

why did that one statement from Titus make you rethink your 4-5 hours on casing her?

Simple:

im not really sure why people strongly TR'd Hopkirk at all, maybe someone can enlighten me there

Hopkirk doesn't post much compared to the rest of the game, but I just feel he's town when he does post.

I think that this is literally the first thing Titus has said all game that I can see as possibly town from her, because as it so happens, yes, it is pretty much this.

(Note that my vote's still there because I fully believe Titus as scum can and will say this, too, because saying it is a scum mediator move, it's just that it's the first thing Titus has said that I have shared her stance on.)

My read on Bell is improving.

Also, where did this come from
Because I can't think it came from Bell directly

It did. Scum!Bell doesn't try at all here. No need for him to.

Okay, but what points to Bell trying here? I was severely unimpressed by his catchup posts that even included team reads. And then he made an excuse for "all replacements are gonna be scummy."

This makes me want to rethink Bell too.

Titus said not one, but two, things that I happen to agree with: Hopkirk is just town whenever he posts, and Dannflor was suspicious of Bell at end of day when Bell's posts have been incredibly lackluster.

If you read my Titus case, do you remember what I said?
"When Titus and I agree on something, it is an incredibly promising sign for her being town. Sadly, a lack of agreement isn't alignment indicative", or something like that.

Prior to those two posts, Titus and I were not agreeing on literally anything--not a scumtell, but an absence of a strong towntell.

Those two posts have Titus and I having common ground--not absolute proof of the strong towntell, but potentially an indicator OF it.

In short: Titus and I mindmelding means that Titus is town. Titus hasn't approached full mindmeld territory, but she posted things that COULD be indicative of the start of a mindmeld--that's enough for me to have some benefit of the doubt, to second-guess my Titus case in favor of voting a common scumread in Bell.

[Ythan]

If anyone cares at all I don't think I can intentionally fake toxicity against players I know are town and I feel it would be unethical and destructive to try.

[Almost50]

Also, scum didn't care who died in the two. Why would scum want LLD so strongly dead rather than DGB so strongly dead? Why would scum want DGB so strongly dead rather than LLD so strongly dead? Both are incredibly strong town players who have similar clout to them, so one's death D1 is just as good as the other. To scum, due to it being TvT, it makes no difference which of them dies, the town loses a strong scumhunter regardless. So scum have no incentive, no motive, to fake a scumread on one and generate a sincere defense of the other. They gain nothing from it.

Counterpoint: Scum also had no incentive to TR them both if they wanted them both dead. Like, come one. If I was Scum I certainly would have faked a SR on one and sided with the other. As a matter of fact I am convinced DGB would have been pushed today had she not been vigged overnight, using her bad push on LLD as a/the reason. Stating a TR on BOTH makes it harder to elim the one that didn't get roped (which would have meant Scum would have had to shoot DGB, which is apparently not the case).

Sorry if I'm going round in circles now, but I am trying to understand how your thought process works with all these assumptions.

[Ythan]

I mean I almost want to reign in even the the free flowing stream of consciousness posting because it sometimes leads to toxicity but that's not a decision I've made yet.

[mastina]

Well I'm exhausted and going to bed. But it looks like A50 fake claimed a guilty on Ythan? Okay. But y tho? A50/Ythan weird scum gambit maybe? Yep, I got a headache thinking about the motivations for each possible combination. It feels dumb.

This is a slot people are not wagoning right now.
This is a slot who we're not wagoning, in favor of wagoning players like Ythan who had an insanely town reaction and Almost50 who almost certainly doesn't pull this stunt if he's scum (it conftowns Ythan which is bad for the scum and puts him in the spotlight which is bad for the scum if he's scum), and Luca Blight for ???.

This is the slot people are glossing over, in spite of his reaction to the A50/Ythan reaction instead of being "okay they're both town", being, "maybe they're both scum?".

We gave the worst a pass on D1 because he replaced out. If he was struggling in this game, which his replace-out proved he was, his lackluster content was excusable.

We gave Bell a pass on D1 because when he replaced in, we were near deadline, so it was understandable that Bell, as a replacement, especially as a player who takes time to get going, would be lackluster at the end of D1 upon replacing in.

But Bell has no such excuse now.

Why is the Bell slot so lackluster even after Bell has had the time to get firmly established in the game?

[Cephrir]

Is this what bell being useless looks like? I haven't actually seen it so I wasn't sure

[mastina]

Mastina, can you remind me why you TR jjh?

Experience.
(Meta stuff mostly.)

Speaking of which tho, updated not-readslist:

I will fight hard against eliminations on:

{Hopkirk, innocentvillager, Xtoxm, hercule/Luca Blight, Cephrir, Dunnstral, Ythan, Almost50, probably-jjh}

I disapprove of eliminations on:

{jjh}

TODAY

(pending further updates in the future)

I don't want to wagon:

{Titus}

I will explicitly wagon:

{AGar, OkaPoka, Bell}

Wagonwise I am now unsure on:

{Winter Flakes}

[mastina]

Counterpoint: Scum also had no incentive to TR them both if they wanted them both dead.

Sure they do, if they don't push hard to dismantle the wagons.

There's a world of difference between saying "DGB and LLD are both town :/" and going, "DGB is town for this this and this, LLD is town for this this and this, I really don't want to do either, can we PLEASE do X instead? Hey, playerA, you were suspicious of X, can you join me? PlayerB, I know you're on DGB but trust me, we wanna do X instead. Player C, I know you're on LLD but can I sell you on voting X? Or if not X, would you consider Y?"

The former is the majority of the players who said it was TvT; it is the scum mediator style where they say something that they TMI know to be true but do nothing to try and actually change the outcome; the latter is a town mediator style where they do their damnedest to try and eliminate scum instead of the two town.

There's a world of difference between resigning yourself to the elimination of town regardless of which wagon (null-at-best, scum-at-worst), and actively trying to change the elimination to not be on town. And most of the people who said it was TvT were the former rather than the latter.