Mini Number 2195 | Brutalism | GAME OVER

[Datisi]

#2000

[midwaybear]

Midway, can you explain for me again why you chose to vote Italiano over GC or Lotus at the end of D1?

I voted because Italiano was the largest wagon at the time.

[Datisi]

I scum read Harumi who max replaced. I just got to his posts on the thread, but recent developments make me question if its scum theatere

can you elaborate on this?

what about his "attack" on duchess don't you like? (also iirc, he didn't even vote duchess?)

oh, you also said you don't think dunn is scum, right? tldr on that?

[Datisi]

Open 802 was me just kicking ass though MAAAAN.

thanks, i needed the laugh today.

[VP Baltar]

You also immediately tagged on the amished tell there and completely ignored it here. I get the sense that you could make a read of it, successfully did it there but isn't paying mind to it here.

I really was not following this between you and Dunn, but as I said to Dunn, if you expect me to remember a discussion from a forum mafia game from 11 years ago, that just isn't happening.

I did not play mafia, or even think about playing mafia, between 2013 and 2020. After Dunn tagged the actual game, I went back and read that section to even understand what the tell was you guys were referring to. I can certainly weigh in on the point now that I refreshed on it, but I had no memory of it until that point.

[VP Baltar]

k since yall prob gonna try to hammer this while im at work - ill just out my theory now ~ i will ellaborate on this tomorrow if im alive but if somehow italiano flips town, im looking at a crackpot theory of andres, maxwell, GC.


but the way italiano formed their reads list suggests they arent flipping town so im not too pressed about it, i just would rather do this in case im nightkilled and all.

This may not be entirely crackpot.

at which cracks in this pot are you looking at here?

(does that even make sense? you know what i mean)

I would be surprised if that's the entire team, but GC and/or andres have variously made me feel uneasy this game in ways I haven't really articulated to myself. When I've gone back over each, they have pushes that seem logical, but I don't get a lot of passion from what they are doing in the game? Maybe it's just a side effect of life getting in the way, but andres like game out swinging today about voting on wagon and stuff...and then votes off wagon onto GC? It's weird.

maxwell, as I said above, I don't have a lot of strong feelings about right now.

[VP Baltar]

Midway, can you explain for me again why you chose to vote Italiano over GC or Lotus at the end of D1?

I voted because Italiano was the largest wagon at the time.

Did you find him scummy? I felt like, looking at your ISO, earlier in the day you did not.

[Momrangal]

I find it difficult to beleive that a person entirely forgets a tell they used to use once upon a time BUT I guess I could give you the benefit of the doubt.

@Datisi

Give me a mo on VP, Dunn largely amounts to gut and rough meta. Mostly, I don't see the scumgenda in the way he's engaged with Baltar and also myself.

[Momrangal]

Looking at the case VP has on Max, I'm not sure VP ties their mindsets so closely like this as partners. At the same time, he is giving both town reasons and scum reasons for him so it may be a way to defend him without really defending him but having a bit of an out maybe if max flips scum. I feel like interaction wise they are unlikely to be partners but the case makes me question the lack of possible scum theater here

lol
Cookie Monster's "read list" is a scum claim
VOTE: Cookie Monster

Depressingly, don't think so, they appear to be a gimmick alt, not really expecting anything useful from them in terms of content.

I don't really have thoughts on the argument between datisi and andres, they don't look like scum to me, still think midwaybear is scummy.

Do you think elements' vote is scummy?

It kind of comes across that way to me. Cookie could be an alt, but if they are an actual noob, it seems like LHF

lol
Cookie Monster's "read list" is a scum claim
VOTE: Cookie Monster

Depressingly, don't think so, they appear to be a gimmick alt, not really expecting anything useful from them in terms of content.

I don't really have thoughts on the argument between datisi and andres, they don't look like scum to me, still think midwaybear is scummy.

Do you think elements' vote is scummy?

It kind of comes across that way to me. Cookie could be an alt, but if they are an actual noob, it seems like LHF

I don't think the kneejerk reaction is inherently scummy, no, and their explanation for the vote that came after you made this post is

fine

, but I'm having a hard time finding real scumreads this game

I am mostly focusing on this interaction between the two of them. On VPs end, it looks like genuine solving and on Max's end it looks like it could he possible buddying

His vote on me is fine for the reasons he gave, but it is more of an interpretation thing that I don't want to get in an argument about. I hope he will see that I am town soon enough.

i wasn't arguing as if the "lol why am i still top wagon" is the crux of my dunn case anyway.

i am not actually sure what the above quote means? like yeah it's an interpretation thing and you agreed w me, no?

What is the crux of your case, exactly? As far as I can tell, it's that Dunn didn't vote Italiano and made a useless vote on midwaybear near the end of the day. Correct me if I'm wrong. I don't really townread Dunn, but that's not...especially convincing?

The point of lurking is that there is never an especially convincing case to make, right?

And this one doesn't really feel like partner interactions however it could be. For them to be partners, it would have to be the ultimate theater but I also think that they are individually scummy. It's either TvS or TvT but I think the former is more likely than the lattee

[VP Baltar]

So Mom Ran Gal, if I'm reading you correctly, you think maxwell and I were the scummiest people on the Italiano wagon?

[VP Baltar]

Oh, is it Mom Rang Al? I like that one.

[VP Baltar]

Where is everyone btw? This is extremely hard if no one is playing.

[Momrangal]

I haven't actually read Maxwell himself but I think (harumi slot) and you are individually the two most scummiest people ye.

[VP Baltar]

I haven't actually read Maxwell himself but I think (harumi slot) and you are individually the two most scummiest people ye.

This is a bad post.

[VP Baltar]

And yet I town read your two predecessors. This is going to be a rough game

[OutWorldER]

Official Vote Count 2.02

Cultural Education Center, Albany, New York

---

Elimination

With 11 votes in play, it takes 6 to eliminate someone.

Dunnstral (3): VP Baltar, Datisi, Green Crayons
Green Crayons (2): Andresvmb, midwaybear
midwaybear (2): Dunnstral, maxwell
VP Baltar (2): Momrangal, Cookie Monster
Cookie Monster (1): Elements

Not Voting

(1): RLotus

Deadline:

(expired on 2021-03-17 21:34:56).

Mod notes: Unofficially prodding both Cookie Monster and Elements. These prods will not be counted as official until their prod timer properly reaches the limit (Remember: Prod timers pause during the weekend).

Also, please do not put votes inside spoiler tags. I counted it this time, but I will not for future votes of that kind.

[/area]

[Andresvmb]

I have more pressing matters atm, I'll get to this game "properly" when that's dealt with

Is this ever going to happen?

[Andresvmb]

i'll get to your other stuff tomorrow. i'm decently confused about your recent posts, claiming you'd be floored if dats/baltar(/lotus) was all town, then turning around and calling that speculative because we're being loud and scum often isn't loud. i feel like i need to review your d1 again which i do not have the brain cells for right now

I tried to explain this I believe but maybe I wasn’t clear. I would be floored if you were all Town in the universe that Dunn is Town. Because then that’s two consecutive executions of relatively easier players to push lead by a combination of the group I highlighted plus a few other actors.

[maxwell]

His vote on me is fine for the reasons he gave, but it is more of an interpretation thing that I don't want to get in an argument about. I hope he will see that I am town soon enough.

i wasn't arguing as if the "lol why am i still top wagon" is the crux of my dunn case anyway.

i am not actually sure what the above quote means? like yeah it's an interpretation thing and you agreed w me, no?

What is the crux of your case, exactly? As far as I can tell, it's that Dunn didn't vote Italiano and made a useless vote on midwaybear near the end of the day. Correct me if I'm wrong. I don't really townread Dunn, but that's not...especially convincing?

The point of lurking is that there is never an especially convincing case to make, right?

I guess. If the stated point is just, "let's kill the lurker" that's...understanable, I just thought there was something more backing the conviction and I'm not especially whlemed? I don't know. I'm conflicted.

k since yall prob gonna try to hammer this while im at work - ill just out my theory now ~ i will ellaborate on this tomorrow if im alive but if somehow italiano flips town, im looking at a crackpot theory of andres, maxwell, GC.


but the way italiano formed their reads list suggests they arent flipping town so im not too pressed about it, i just would rather do this in case im nightkilled and all.

This may not be entirely crackpot.

I think it's 1/3 at best.

[Andresvmb]

i feel like i'm reading... needless aggression from you here. not quite sure what to make of it, i'll have wait until you elaborate on your "there's scum in this group" vs "probably not because you're being loud" arguments. i don't get them.

For this, I’m going to have to re-read D1. And a bit like you, it feels like a drag and I haven’t gotten around to doing that carefully. But anyway, I am trying to do two things at the same time.

Given what I’ve seen and read, I don’t think I can, at this point in time, narrow down the Scum (if there indeed is one) between {You, RLotus, VPB}. You and VPB keep throwing skepticism my way, voted for RTP, and ended up on Italiano (and were somewhat tunneled), whereas RLotus thinks I’m obvTown today, called me Town yesterday as well, and did not end up on Italiano. There are enough other players that think that I’m Town that I think one of two strategies could be playing out (if I may say so): either whoever is the Scum is trying to disagree with me, but not attack me directly (since I’m being TR by a lot of players in the game), or I’m being hard TR to be pocketed. For me to feel like I have a better sense of the game, I’m going to have to see probably some more flips and reactions. That’s the truth.

On the other hand, I feel it’s entirely sensible to push some of the players RTP was skeptical of already. RTP thought Green Crayons was Scum throughout most of the day, included them in most POEs, and I also thought had some bad interactions (if you take the view that Duchess / GC was SvT, and given the fact that multiple votes piled onto Duchess, then it’s not out of the question that GC could be Scum just from that). I think pushing there is entirely warranted. I haven’t seen anything today that would make me reconsider either. That’s where I ended up yesterday, and that’s where I’m voting today as of now.

[maxwell]

It's factually inaccurate that no one asked him to claim, and it's like a "well, I guess he deserved it!" post. Dunn's doing the same thing of course. It's probably not alignment indicative, but my gut says those types of slams upon the yeeted could be more likely from scum. IDK, I'm rambling.

I'll be honest here: I had so completely checked out of the game mentally that I missed the posts asking him to claim, and his replies. I'm sorry. I shouldn't be doing that as a replacement, that's sloppy

that's... overly simplified.

- dunn had a bad case of lurk day one
- kept ignoring questions thrown his way
- had a post around mid day one where it seemed like he's town on italiano, but made absolutely no attempts of genuinely convincing anyone
- lurking up to deadline (i believe he got prodded around that time? not sure)
- once italiano wagon was basically a guarantee (i.e. he was literally implying he was going to hamer himself), popped in with a kinda weak midway vote
- the above looks bad when you notice that italiano flipped town, because it implies that dunn presented a townread, didn't try convincing anyone on it, and once it was guaranteed the wagon was going through, he voted somewhere else, in a very "scum staying off misyeet wagon for townpoints" fashion
- returns day two with like barely any reads, isn't showing much will to live, and is seriously questioning why he's top wagon
- also i really dislike his baltar shade(?)

like is this 100% slam dunk scumcase? no, i can see a few universes out there where this flips town. but like. individually, it's the best i got rig

All right, that's fair enough, when you put it that way, I understand where you're coming from. I am hesitant because I've seen Dunn as lurking underwhelming town before and it doesn't feel far off from that here (plus I don't think his points about midway are bad!). I probably need to quit being lazy and take a broader view of the game at this point, it's just...daunting.

[maxwell]

VOTE: VPB

think I'll probably go here now. Partly because I feel ignored, partly because I don't like the pushes he's making so far.

I feel like a push on duchess is LHF, and I'm not entirely understanding his push on lotus around the 40s

I'm not sure but I recalled (and correctly) that you were one of the few who defended me on rep in. You also immediately tagged on the amished tell there and completely ignored it here. I get the sense that you could make a read of it, successfully did it there but isn't paying mind to it here.

I don't like your attacks on Dunn and duchess, and feel lukewarm on your read on lotus.

Regarding Koba, you appealed to them and asked them to help you out, in figuring out if you were simply tunneled here but I didn't see a response to their answer

I just have a very strong vibe of you going through the motions instead of putting actual thought behind your suspicions and pushes

None of this really makes sense to me, and is not really how I feel at all. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make about the amished tell. He didn't push duchess as a scumread at all and I'm not sure what you're seeing there exactly.

That's two players in this slot who have made bad pushes on slots that are either flipped town or a townread and it's starting to add up. If it's hard to find scum in the game thread this slot might be a reason why given it's had long periods of absence from the game thread.

[Andresvmb]

I still don't see scum in VPB and Datisi after reconsidering. After reading a couple VPB games, it seems like he has a tendency to try to discredit people pushing on him as town. At first I thought it was scummy, but I think that is town behavior for him.

I still have this lingering gut paranoia about him regardless. Maybe he could be a deepwolf here? I dunno I guess I can't shake the feeling I got day 1. Anyway, he's in my townblock.

This actually makes no sense to me. So I’m going to say I think it’s coming from Town.

I mean, you say that a player that is discrediting those that question them after they’ve made a consistently bad push, and gives you bad vibes, is in your Town block, but could be deep Scum? What Scum doesn’t try to take advantage of these points unless they’re taking about a Partner?

[Momrangal]

Top of 57.

Will do Kobs a favor and look at GC. I've been null on them all game which doesn't vibe well with me considering I'm almost caught up.

Trying to stay objective on Max but not fond of his first few catch up posts

[Andresvmb]

You know VD is town which is why you preemptively defended him against a threat level 1 question.

Looking back, I find this Scummy.

GC was trying to consistently build a case against Duchess, who was criticizing GC’s line of questioning of Italiano. At first, GC makes the point that Duchess is trying to defend a Partner, and that they’re both Scum. But once Italiano takes offense at Duchess’ “defense” (Duchess seemed to insist that they weren’t defending Italiano but only criticizing GC’s approach), and turns around and votes Duchess, GC drops that line and argues that Duchess *knows* Italiano is Town, and is basically White Knighting Italiano and putting them (GC) in a bad spot. Now that we know that Italiano is in fact Town, this feels very much to me like Scum that is trying to take advantage of a situation to paint another player as Scum at all costs. Because well, didn’t this merit some reconsideration perhaps a little sooner? It came later, if I remember correctly, but only after the wagon on Duchess didn’t quite work out, and the attention shifted decidedly against Italiano. I am going to rely a little less on my memory and see if this played out how I remember it, but it is something worth returning to.