Titus v Nancy Drew (Game Over)

[SaraharaS]

True but even if it is Sarah, who is her buddy then?

I don't know, I don't really have a second scumread so I should look into things more today

I agree that there is at least 1 scum in the vt claims here

Starcrossed can't be scum
Tweetie can't be bus driver on account of her role being confirmable, and is also probably town
Fey is likely town by role and play

So that is who we shouldn't elim for sure IMO

And then:

Pyro - I thought he's been townie and I'm sure fey is better at reading him than I am and she says town for sure so I'll respect that
Kidamn - I don't get how they'd fit in what seems like the perfect claim as scum on day 2 - am I missing something

Pink Ball - He's felt towny and people brought up gamma and the replace out
Clidd - Was getting pushed by scum and is being pushed by sarahara now

Sarahara - People have pointed out that her reads changed in a weird way (which could have been a mason tell so I initially ignored), and the poe is shrinking so this feels likely scum unless I'm missing something big

when did my reads weirdly change? during my 120 page catchup is the only time i can remember people mentioning my reads changing (pyro talking about me on W&P)... and does 'has read another 20-30 pages of game' not seem like a perfectly ridiculously good reason for my reads to shift around a little?

Sarah was only on two wagons: Italiano and War and Peace.

see my consistent-across-multiple-games thoughts on how we should be acting. i spent the entirety of yesterday worrying if W&P was a mason and wondering if pushing them was going to get a mason killed because i wasn't sure if your reluctance to vote them when me and olaf and fey were vibing on the slot being scum and you were giving vibes that made me feel like they could be a mason so i didn't want to make it too obvious if you were trying to hint to back off

did i mention that i'm not the biggest fan of this style of setup...

Everyone is pushing Sarah. Hmm.

Coming from ANYONE but you. that post would make me wonder.

Everyone is pushing me. Hmm.

[Nancy Drew 39]

I can be on Starcrossed tonight

Tweetie needs to be too (on Starcrossed), so we can catch bus driver if we miss today.

@Tweetie

If I message Star and they are bus driven, it won't tell me who they were bus driven with. If they die, I won't even be able to know if they were bus driven or not

But you did with Koba, so why would Starcrossed be any different? I’m basing this on either Star or you being the likely kill tonight and because every single NK so far has been bus driven.

[Fey]

So, Sarah, why would you think that about W+P? Do you think that Nancy told her mason to claim an investigative role that would get them killed...?

[SaraharaS]

My main reason to think Sarah might be scum is just for the weird War and Peace progression. I know she insists it's not weird to only like a couple of things and have them in the PoE, but I still find it strange that she has good vibes on them and points out 1 or 2 posts of theirs she likes but then they're in the PoE with no sign of the progression for why they got there

pedit: because I seriously thought they were scum if not a Mason or vig

i could have sworn you know how my poe works. it takes a fair bit to get beyond neutral & i don't usually separate null&scum inside the poe until i'm more confident (later in the game)... if you look through my comments i'm pretty sure i didn't think anything they did was super townie as opposed to just 'kinda nice' and a couple of my top TRs (including you... the betrayal wow) was SRing them so idk why you don't get their position in the poe

[Fey]

I don't follow the logic on W+P at all. Why were you so heavily vibing on the slot, and not expressing these thoughts, where is the worry...?

[Nancy Drew 39]

No, I think that there must be a loud modifier with investigatives because both of them had the exact same thing happen to them.

What?

It’s kind’ve atypical for either Koba or you to have been given the bus driver’s target’s identity.

[SaraharaS]

i'll quote some posts from Nancy that were giving me paranoia, but it was largely feeling like Nancy didn't want us pushing W&P + the mech wasn't dissuading me of the notion

...that's why i kept posting around that time that i wished nancy would say whether she approved of the vote (including when unvoting W&P one time) and that i felt like scumhunting was mason hunting... because i had vibes that my top SR was a mason

So, Sarah, why would you think that about W+P? Do you think that Nancy told her mason to claim an investigative role that would get them killed...?

a claimed investigative is likely to get protected so dying isn't super likely
a claimed investigative is likely to get roleblocked (causing scum to waste a RB on blocking nothing)
helps hide other masons, scum kill less likely to hit masons
avoids claiming the mason which can help it live longer
i can definitely see a benefit to it mechwise

[Nancy Drew 39]

is (KidAm + Dunn) with a no protectives rule possible? that reaaaaally doesn't feel balanced at a glance

town wouldnt have a single decent PR in that case, and scum is... well.... *that* team

+1

Exactly, I think Titus’ rule was probably no loyal/disloyal based on the fact that no one has either flipped/claimed that.

[Nancy Drew 39]

i'm not 'seriously suggesting' i'm asking if it seems remotely balanced because, as i said, it reeeeeeally doesn't feel balanced to me

i think Clidd looks pretty bad from Krazy interactions especially when you consider that nobody gets voted off without your say, so scum can throw shade at each other in this setup knowing it's not likely to result in an actual scum!death unless you already dislike the slot. Krazy only throws shade at and pushes the clidd slot when Krazy knows you're after other votes. like i talked about this already, he ramps up the agression against clidd from shade to pushing when you're deciding between 2-3 non Clidd people. that feels performative > non associative

not sure what my problematic interactions with the slot are?

I didn’t sanction Toog and wasn’t exactly keen on BM. Only lim I enthusiastically endorsed was W & P, however I did push for Italiano.

[SaraharaS]

W&P wasn't obvscum so much as in a very small (4-5-maybe 6 players containing 3 scum) that some of my strongest TRs that i love sheeping (hey there pyro) were hard SRing

here's my general feelings of discontent with the way the day was flowing @Fey

this setup means that trying to scumhunt is pro scum right now. change my mind

UNVOTE: W&P

sorry haven't read in a while
not been feeling mafia AT ALL this past week and it's probably time for a break after this one
this game especially though is pretty demotivating
Nancy people who know how to read me and are good at reading me have repeatedly told you i'm town

could you maybe trust their judgement rather than pushing for me simply because i'm a VT?

there's nothing more demotivating than being pushed because of mech i have no control over

the only other reason i saw you give was you didn't like my reaction to the whole Morning ordeal
she herself has informed you that my reaction was perfectly normal
and that i know her tells and it's not weird at all that i know for a fact that she's town here

i only skimmed the stuff since i last posted so i may have missed questions or whatever
i'll TRY and get myself back into this later
maybe

oh and i still think War and Peace is scum who we should actually be killing today

you getting pushed by mech arguments that 'Olaf must be scum because one of the people in that group must be scum' which i'm arguing against based on you dropping some of your towntells you say?
not

exactly

the same scenario this time, but i'm still getting flashbacks

since you asked for some more thoughts on VT spec... here's some in depth
looking briefly though some past larges here's some precedent of same/similar vanilla:

7/17 VT: viewtopic.php?f=56&t=84560
7/18 VT: viewtopic.php?f=160&t=85653
6/17 VT, with mod note that town PRs were designed to be actively negative utility: viewtopic.php?f=56&t=85191

mod spec - the last VS was considered a stomp for town, and the masonary/setup veeeeery townsided if i'm reading that right. Reasonable to assume the mod for this game would aim to factor feedback from the last one and the discussion on masons there into it (when was it designed infulences this though)

i think you're treating '3 masons or your choice of any PRs' part of the setup as being a lot less powerful than it is and assuming more PRs when 3 masons/equivalent already take up a massive chunk of the overall power of a town (+ as noted below, vig exists & nightskip both are presumably town)

conclusion on possibilities
- 7 VT is reasonable by precedent/setup/reads and not impossible or even unlikely i think... but i don't exactly design setups so maybe i'm wrong on design spec
- 1 scum in the 5 remaining is also possible and incredibly likely if the vanilla cop is a real claim
- third option is that both are true. there's multiple slots that didn't claim vanilla or not vanilla. if there's a scum goon within those slots then we can also be in a world where the town VTs claimed, but any scum who were considering claiming VT saw that you were already looking at the VTs and chose not to (this obviously also works with more than 1 scum goon and 1 claimed goon within it + probably other cases)
- fakeclaiming of VT is possible and adjusts everything here/raises other possibilities

i'm happy to assume
- Vig is town
- Scum had day shot so town have nightskip to balance out the killpower increase from a dayvig (effectively cancel out to scum making their kill during the day instead of night if both used? discounting impact of vig)
- masons and/or equivalent powers exist
- locktown reads are almost definitely town because words have definitions that give you their meaning and the definition of locktown is a townread that's so strong it's bordering on 100%, so presumably someone who's locktown is presumably close to 100% town

Also to note
- my/town in general's reads are mechanically objectively worse than Nancy's because Nancy isn't going to push a mason whereas i/town in general might
- Nancy shares most/all of my locktown reads

This is follow the

cop

stump now imo. the masons hiding is an easy win condition. actively pushing anyone feels like a bad idea at this point. going into strong townreads being far more useful IF Nancy is pushing them but not if Nancy isn't pushing them

---
unrelated, but ignoring the vanilla things is imo, 100% pro town for reasons i'll explain if you want me to but not unless asked specifically

here's my W&P stance

i've got enough strong townreads that i'm good with eating through the rest of the POE

good ol' POE

VOTE: War and Peace

[Nancy Drew 39]

True but even if it is Sarah, who is her buddy then?

I don't know, I don't really have a second scumread so I should look into things more today

I agree that there is at least 1 scum in the vt claims here

Starcrossed can't be scum
Tweetie can't be bus driver on account of her role being confirmable, and is also probably town
Fey is likely town by role and play

So that is who we shouldn't elim for sure IMO

And then:

Pyro - I thought he's been townie and I'm sure fey is better at reading him than I am and she says town for sure so I'll respect that
Kidamn - I don't get how they'd fit in what seems like the perfect claim as scum on day 2 - am I missing something

Pink Ball - He's felt towny and people brought up gamma and the replace out
Clidd - Was getting pushed by scum and is being pushed by sarahara now

Sarahara - People have pointed out that her reads changed in a weird way (which could have been a mason tell so I initially ignored), and the poe is shrinking so this feels likely scum unless I'm missing something big

when did my reads weirdly change? during my 120 page catchup is the only time i can remember people mentioning my reads changing (pyro talking about me on W&P)... and does 'has read another 20-30 pages of game' not seem like a perfectly ridiculously good reason for my reads to shift around a little?

Sarah was only on two wagons: Italiano and War and Peace.

see my consistent-across-multiple-games thoughts on how we should be acting. i spent the entirety of yesterday worrying if W&P was a mason and wondering if pushing them was going to get a mason killed because i wasn't sure if your reluctance to vote them when me and olaf and fey were vibing on the slot being scum and you were giving vibes that made me feel like they could be a mason so i didn't want to make it too obvious if you were trying to hint to back off

did i mention that i'm not the biggest fan of this style of setup...

Everyone is pushing Sarah. Hmm.

Coming from ANYONE but you. that post would make me wonder.

Everyone is pushing me. Hmm.

I don’t understand why anyone would seriously think W & P were masons after I pushed them to outright claim and their claim was gunsmith?

I can understand that on D1 but I think that should have been pretty obviously not by D2.

[SaraharaS]

i'm not 'seriously suggesting' i'm asking if it seems remotely balanced because, as i said, it reeeeeeally doesn't feel balanced to me

i think Clidd looks pretty bad from Krazy interactions especially when you consider that nobody gets voted off without your say, so scum can throw shade at each other in this setup knowing it's not likely to result in an actual scum!death unless you already dislike the slot. Krazy only throws shade at and pushes the clidd slot when Krazy knows you're after other votes. like i talked about this already, he ramps up the agression against clidd from shade to pushing when you're deciding between 2-3 non Clidd people. that feels performative > non associative

not sure what my problematic interactions with the slot are?

I didn’t sanction Toog and wasn’t exactly keen on BM. Only lim I enthusiastically endorsed was W & P, however I did push for Italiano.

what happened isn't what should happen. we shouldn't vote anyone the stump doesn't agree to until all masons are dead. i stand by this

BM was before i got here and i remember you were annoyed about it but idr the specifics

Italiano you were happy with so it fits. clidd wasn't being seriously considered and most people were looking at the same people you were here. clidd/Krazy throwing shade at each other wasn't going to result in a exile and krazy waited until the other wagons had solidifed + got some degree of buy in from you before he seriously 'pushed' clidd. look at the timings of his case vs wagons

W&P also fits

[SaraharaS]

True but even if it is Sarah, who is her buddy then?

I don't know, I don't really have a second scumread so I should look into things more today

I agree that there is at least 1 scum in the vt claims here

Starcrossed can't be scum
Tweetie can't be bus driver on account of her role being confirmable, and is also probably town
Fey is likely town by role and play

So that is who we shouldn't elim for sure IMO

And then:

Pyro - I thought he's been townie and I'm sure fey is better at reading him than I am and she says town for sure so I'll respect that
Kidamn - I don't get how they'd fit in what seems like the perfect claim as scum on day 2 - am I missing something

Pink Ball - He's felt towny and people brought up gamma and the replace out
Clidd - Was getting pushed by scum and is being pushed by sarahara now

Sarahara - People have pointed out that her reads changed in a weird way (which could have been a mason tell so I initially ignored), and the poe is shrinking so this feels likely scum unless I'm missing something big

when did my reads weirdly change? during my 120 page catchup is the only time i can remember people mentioning my reads changing (pyro talking about me on W&P)... and does 'has read another 20-30 pages of game' not seem like a perfectly ridiculously good reason for my reads to shift around a little?

Sarah was only on two wagons: Italiano and War and Peace.

see my consistent-across-multiple-games thoughts on how we should be acting. i spent the entirety of yesterday worrying if W&P was a mason and wondering if pushing them was going to get a mason killed because i wasn't sure if your reluctance to vote them when me and olaf and fey were vibing on the slot being scum and you were giving vibes that made me feel like they could be a mason so i didn't want to make it too obvious if you were trying to hint to back off

did i mention that i'm not the biggest fan of this style of setup...

Everyone is pushing Sarah. Hmm.

Coming from ANYONE but you. that post would make me wonder.

Everyone is pushing me. Hmm.

I don’t understand why anyone would seriously think W & P were masons after I pushed them to outright claim and their claim was gunsmith?

I can understand that on D1 but I think that should have been pretty obviously not by D2.

i thought he'd flip scum because the wagon drivers felt super pure and he felt meh null lean scum
i had some paranoia that i was pushing a mason and unintentionally ruining your strategy and exposing your masons which made the push feel a lot more eh then it should
i got over it when i revoted after the confused unvote

[Nancy Drew 39]

My current PoE is you/KidAmn/Clidd. I have stronger reasons to be tr everyone else and as long as both scums are in that PoE, we win.

So fypov, do you agree with this? Minus you obviously.

[SaraharaS]

ok easier to summarise than quote because the quotes don't technically mention WP

-you were starting to hard push voting off within the VT claims at that point rather than W&P - that's when i got concerned that you were looking there due to your mason being pushed

[SaraharaS]

My current PoE is you/KidAmn/Clidd. I have stronger reasons to be tr everyone else and as long as both scums are in that PoE, we win.

So fypov, do you agree with this? Minus you obviously.

as i said earlier, yes. this either gets both scum, or there's a deepwolf that gets POE'd out from flips/power roles... but there's enough votes for all of that. if i had a smaller poe then i'd be a lot more irritated with a push on me here

I hard TR over half of the game without counting myself so this isn't game losing, it's just dumb. if you want to vote me then sheep me afterwards

[SaraharaS]

6350 was of course saying sheep me on Kidam/Clidd. if you're agreeing with that then i don't mind what else you do really

[Nancy Drew 39]

VOTE COUNT 1 . 5

• War and Peace
  ------- 6 ( Pyro(11), Fey(47), Sherlock and Watson(20), Morty and Rick(6), Dunnstral(46), Starcrossed(5) )
  
  ItalianoVD
  ---------- 2 ( ItalianoVD(1), Gamma Emerald(5) )
  
  Starcrossed
  --------- 2 ( Rogue Squadron(1), War and Peace(1), Titus(1) )
  
  Dunnstral
  ----------- 2 ( Batsunami(31), Battle Mage(19) )
  
  Toogeloo
  ------------ 1 ( Charlie and Snoopy(1) )
  
  Sherlock and Watson
  - 0 ( No One )
  
  Batsunami
  ----------- 0 ( No One )
  
  Saudade
  ------------- 0 ( No One )
  
  Gamma Emerald
  ------- 0 ( No One )
  
  Morty and Rick
  ------ 0 ( No One )
  
  SaraharaS
  ----------- 0 ( No One )
  
  Fey
  ----------------- 0 ( No One )
  
  Rogue Squadron
  ------ 0 ( No One )
  
  Clidd
  --------------- 0 ( No One )
  
  Battle Mage
  --------- 0 ( No One )
  
  Pyro
  ---------------- 0 ( No One )
  
  Charlie and Snoopy
  -- 0 ( No One )
  
  
  
  Not Voting
  ---------- 7 ( SaraharaS(0), Clidd(0), Toogeloo(7), Saudade(0), Nancy Drew 39(46) )

With 17 alive, it takes 9 to Flip
Deadline is in (expired on 2021-02-25 20:01:00)

I think this is all town. Dunn only unvoted because he really thought W & P were masons

[SaraharaS]

except Sherlock ^

[Nancy Drew 39]

Basically, I have very strong reasons to think that Fey, Tweetie, Starcrossed, Dunn, PB, Pyro are all town. Hence my PoE.

Why you look worse than Clidd is because of Krazy interactions. But you 3 are the designated lims. It’s just the order I’m not sure of yet.

I need to re-ISO Krazy because iirc, he was fine with limming Clidd iirc?

[Nancy Drew 39]

except Sherlock ^

Yes obviously.

[Nancy Drew 39]

@Kidamn why did you RS Dunn when Koba was the obvious kill target?

[Fey]

Nancy. Please, please read what Sarah said about Clidd.

Bussing/shading when YOU don’t want to elim Clidd means Sherlock can push there without consequence.

[Morning Tweet]

But you did with Koba, so why would Starcrossed be any different? I’m basing this on either Star or you being the likely kill tonight and because every single NK so far has been bus driven.

No, I messaged Sara who got bus driven with DKKoba. i know this because Sara did not respond to my message

Had I messaged DKKoba, then Sara (if scum) wouldn't say anything, and then I would have no idea whether or not DK got driven

My messages will be most powerful if I withhold who I targetted or am going to target

[Morning Tweet]

No, I think that there must be a loud modifier with investigatives because both of them had the exact same thing happen to them.

What?

It’s kind’ve atypical for either Koba or you to have been given the bus driver’s target’s identity.

I wasn't. i deduced it from Sara not responding to my message

And DKKoba was simply told who they investigated. [I.e. "Toogeloo is vanilla!"]. I do not receive feedback in the form of moderator feedback on my role. Everything has to do with my target signalling to me in thread (sometimes secretly) that they received the message.

N2 - Starcrossed, success
N3 - Olaf, success
N4 - SaraharaS, failure

Loud modifier means that I inform my target that I visited them, but I'm not loud and neither was DKKoba. The bus driver also isn't loud cause then Toogeloo and SaraharaS would know the bus drivers identity