Mini Number 2195 | Brutalism | GAME OVER

[RLotus]

In post 2822, RLotus wrote:
I don't see much difference from your opinions yesterday. Where have you re evaluated?

> arguing with you and trying to figure out if your points are bullshit or not
> trying to pull something out of dgb and dunn
> getting momrangal to explain her positions
> "where have you reevaluated?"

So you are completely wrong the past 2 days and you say hm I will poke and prod around. As opposed to, I don't know, looking at how the game has gone and trying to solve the game and find where you went wrong. Get out of here

My point is self evident and yet you keep being dense in your responses to me.

[RLotus]

And I think Momrangal is probably just bad Town this game.

I don't know. It is clear they are out of touch with the game, whether they are town or scum. I've also lost confidence in them being scum. But is it possible they use the fact they aren't in touch with the game as a scum defense? It's not impossible in my opinion.

[Andresvmb]

And I think Momrangal is probably just bad Town this game.

I don't know. It is clear they are out of touch with the game, whether they are town or scum. I've also lost confidence in them being scum. But is it possible they use the fact they aren't in touch with the game as a scum defense? It's not impossible in my opinion.

It’s a few things. I think they don’t use that defense for their vote on midwaybear as Scum. It’s... too transparent. Look had it been me, I would have embraced the role of hammer. And said I was hoodwinked by Datisi or something. Instead, they attack me in a clearly emotional way. I don’t see it coming from Scum, as much as it annoys me.

[Andresvmb]

midwaybear said something about VPB that left me thinking. That they had put too much effort into the game to be Scum. There’s something very true about that. VPB has not been afraid of putting all of their positions out there. And they haven’t been convenient, in fact some of them were hard. VPB put their foot down for midwaybear for example. They stood for things, even when wrong. I tend to be a little afraid of this sort of thing as Scum. Because who likes being wrong and leaving themselves open for an easy attack? There’s too much conviction there. I think I was a little hurt by some of the attacks against me, but I don’t know that I necessarily feel it’s coming from Scum to be honest.

[Andresvmb]

Sigh. I’ll take a break from this, let you guys drive more of the conversation. I’m a bit tired now.

[Green Crayons]

This btw is so obnoxious. It’s such a useless way of looking at the game. My metric wasn’t votes down for Town = Scum. It’s that you ACTUALLY argued against Italiano, you agreed about midway without making yourself super clear, you dismissed Cookie Monster’s claim, and got into a protracted argument with Duchess D1 who you consistently suspected until they replaced out of the game, on top of putting votes down on all those players (even if you didn’t necessarily end up on all of them towards the end of the day). I certainly am not comparable to you this game when it comes to bad arguments.

you didnt present your argument this way. you said "oh ho 3 votes on ppl who flipped town, must be scum" which is why i've been calling it out as BS

Spoiler: posts

Green Crayons has a lot of votes on Town actually. Cookie Monster, obviously midwaybear.

Green Crayons has a lot of votes on Town actually. Cookie Monster, obviously midwaybear.

RTP, voted for Dunn in the early part of D2 which I have been pointing is a slight rehash of D1.

also your characterization of my play is inaccurate

i didnt vote VD and i didn't want him eliminated

i agreed with a midway elim sufficiently clear that Baltar used one of my reasons as why he suspected midway

As for Duchess/Cookie, yup. i was wrong. it happens. i thought Dutchess was scum, Cookie was a lurkerscum with a fakeclaim.

[Green Crayons]

I also, looking back, didn’t like Battle Mage’s push on RTP. You’ll notice that RTP SR there, and then backed off because it seemed to be veering in a toxic direction. I think Scum definitely pushed RTP as well obviously, and Battle Mage was the more obvious proponent of it. Ultimately it’s a bit hard to figure out because they replaced out, but that’s part of it.

i'll reread BM entirely but i remember being on that vote and it feeling right

well the push itself wasn't bad imo, as I could see where a just-replaced-in BM!town could be coming from, but i had forgotten that BM jumped off RTP to vote me because I responded to Baltar's question about RTP's emotion, but BM (wrongly) said my commentary was unprompted. that's certainly something worth considering.

[Andresvmb]

I’ll correct the record.

Green Crayons is right in that they never voted or even attacked Italiano. I keep getting that wrong. It was a wishy washy position (Town side of the ledger, think it’s Town, but not much of a strong defense), but correct in that they never ended there. Most of their pushes D1 were Duchess (Town), RTP (Town), maxwell (claimed PR).

[Andresvmb]

Oh and Dunn of course. That ones also important.

[Andresvmb]

It’s that you ACTUALLY argued against Italiano

This really should read argued against RTP. I shouldn’t get your pushes wrong. That’s annoying.

[VP Baltar]

So no one knows what they believe. Cool cool cool

[VP Baltar]

Official Vote Count 3.02

Morris Mechanic Theater, Baltimore

---

Elimination

With 9 votes in play, it takes 5 to eliminate someone.


Green Crayons (2): Andresvmb, VP Baltar
VP Baltar (1): DrippingGoofball
Datisi (1): RLotus
RLotus (1): Datisi

Not Voting

(4): maxwell, Green Crayons, Momrangal, Dunnstral

Deadline:

(expired on 2021-03-31 19:39:15).

Mod notes:

[/area]

I feel like there have to be scum not voting here.

[RLotus]

Official Vote Count 3.02

Morris Mechanic Theater, Baltimore

---

Elimination

With 9 votes in play, it takes 5 to eliminate someone.


Green Crayons (2): Andresvmb, VP Baltar
VP Baltar (1): DrippingGoofball
Datisi (1): RLotus
RLotus (1): Datisi

Not Voting

(4): maxwell, Green Crayons, Momrangal, Dunnstral

Deadline:

(expired on 2021-03-31 19:39:15).

Mod notes:

[/area]

I feel like there have to be scum not voting here.

My strong town are Andre, VPB, and maxwell, so yeah there has to be at least one not voting

[VP Baltar]

Let's look at some vote counts and see what stands out. For reference, here are all the replacements first.

Player List:
(Harumi Ayasato) maxwell
Green Crayons
(Lunar Martian) midwaybear
Reformed Toxic Player
(Testarossa) (Battle Mage) Momrangal
Andresvmb
(Elements) DrippingGoofball
ItalianoVD
VP Baltar
Datisi
Dunnstral
(Duchess) Cookie Monster
RLotus


I'm going to look at just the larger wagons I think, but if I see something interesting elsewhere, I may flag it:

Harumi Ayasato (4): Green Crayons, Testarossa,

Duchess

, Elements
Elements (2): Dunnstral, RLotus
VP Baltar (2): Andresvmb,

Italiano

Datisi (2):

Reformed Toxic Player

,

Lunar Martian

RLotus (1): Harumi Ayasato

Reformed Toxic Player

(1): VP Baltar

Duchess

(1): Datisi

A lot of unknown on this Harumi wagon early on.

Duchess

(5): Datisi, Green Crayons,

ItalianoVD, Reformed Toxic Player

, Elements
Elements (2): Dunnstral, Lotus
Harumi Ayasato (1): Testarossa
Green Crayons (1):

Duchess

Reformed Toxic Player

(1): VP Baltar

ItalianoVD

(1): Harumi Ayasato
VP Baltar (1): Andresvmb
Datisi (1):

Lunar Martian

Duchess wagon came up fast after Harumi. Some town on there, but probably not all town? IDK.

Dunnstral (4): VP Baltar,

midwaybear

, Green Crayons, Datisi

ItalianoVD

(3): Harumi Ayasato, RLotus,

Reformed Toxic Player

Harumi Ayasato (2): Testarossa, Elements
Elements (2): Andresvmb,

Duchess

Green Crayons (1):

ItalianoVD

Testarossa (1): Dunnstral

This was the highest I could get the Dunn wagon to on D1.

Elements (4): Andresvmb,

Duchess, Reformed Toxic Player

, Dunnstral

Reformed Toxic Player

(2): Battle Mage, Datisi

midwaybear

(1):

ItalianoVD

ItalianoVD

(1): Harumi Ayasato
VP Baltar (1): RLotus
RLotus (1): VP Baltar

This one is actually maybe a little interesting. If you think andres and Dunn are both town, that's a pure town wagon that couldn't quite get over the edge on Elements.

Elements (4): Dunnstral, VP Baltar, RLotus, Battle Mage
maxwell(2): Elements, Datisi

Reformed Toxic Player

(2): Green Crayons,

ItalianoVD

Green Crayons (1): maxwell
VP Baltar (1):

Duchess

Duchess

(1):

Reformed Toxic Player

RLotus (1): Andresvmb

Now the Elements wagon almost completely reforms. That's a lot of different people on Elements without a yeet.

ItalianoVD

(7):

Reformed Toxic Player

, Datisi, RLotus, VP Baltar,

midwaybear

, maxwell,

ItalianoVD

<--EXECUTED
maxwell(1): Green Crayons
Green Crayons (1): Andresvmb

midwaybear

(1): Dunnstral
Elements (1): Battle Mage
VP Baltar (1):

Duchess

RLotus (1): Elements

I know I'm town. That wagon looks very town heavy. I think it's pretty obvious why I went after midwaybear D2 given I was town reading Datisi and Lotus and to a lesser degree maxwell. Blah if this entire wagon is town at a deadline. I really wish Italiano hadn't self hammered there.

Dunn (5): RLotus, VPB, Datisi, Elements, Green Crayons

midwaybear

(2): dunn, maxwell
maxwell(1): momrangal

A ton of unknown on this wagon. Elements is the one who flinches as soon as GC puts Dunn to E-1. Lotus follows shortly after when andres criticizes the speed of the wagon.

Cookie Monster

(3): DrippingGoofball, Andresvmb, Green Crayons
Green Crayons (2): Momrangal, Dunnstral

midwaybear

(2): maxwell, VP Baltar
VP Baltar (1):

Cookie Monster

Dunnstral (1): Datisi

I think this was the peak of the Cookie Monster wagon. Not a lot to see here, but I forgot andres was briefly on that. Weird that he ragged Datisi and me for not auto believing the claim when andres found cookie monster scummy. Doc is a very frequent scum claim. Anyhow, like I said, not much to actually learn here.

midwaybear

(5): maxwell, VP Baltar, Datisi, Dunnstral, DrippingGoofball

Cookie Monster

(2) Green Crayons,

Cookie Monster

Green Crayons (1): Momrangal
VP Baltar (1): Andresvmb

This is the first cresting of the midway wagon. Alot of our current playerlist on there. Make sense why we are coming back to this and the dunn wagon when there is so much unsolved on those compared to the Italiano wagon. And of course, cookie is voting for herself.

midwaybear

(6): VP Baltar, Datisi, Dunnstral, Andresvmb, Green Crayons, Momrangal <-- EXECUTED
Dunnstral (2): RLotus, maxwell
VP Baltar (1): DrippingGoofball

Cookie Monster

(1):

Cookie Monster

Not a ton to see here either. People are not moving their votes around much and lurking is giving cover to scum in that sense. I think Datisi and I were most responsible for finally pushing this wagon through. Dunn was voting midway since D1, but didn't do much on that wagon. Still, if you think Dunn is town, I'm inclined to think the scum might be on the back end of that wagon...which is where we've seen pressure today. I'm not sure what was really going on with Lotus on D2. He had a camped vote on Dunn, but I can't remember if he was doing much pushing on that or not.

Today's vote counts aren't saying anything yet unfortunately.

[VP Baltar]

I'm especially interested to hear people's thoughts on those two Elements wagons from D1. That feels like the biggest thing I didn't really know before writing all this out.

[maxwell]

I'm sorry for neglecting this game, I keep procrastinating on catching up which just makes things worse and it's not an easy game to read.

I'm especially interested to hear people's thoughts on those two Elements wagons from D1. That feels like the biggest thing I didn't really know before writing all this out.

Gut level take is that that many people voting Elements means the slot is pretty unlikely to be scum.

[maxwell]

I'm not really liking the way RLotus is pushing on Datisi with his arguments but don't have a specific reason why. Also, if momrangal is scum, RLotus outing a guess of Datisi/me/mom and then focusing his attention almost solely on pushing Datisi is classically scummy rule of 3 stuff.

My push on you isn't trash, it is the natural place to look. Your position and VPB's position are scummy based on the flips. The fact that you think my push on you is trash and that you aren't questioning your read on VPB makes you look even more scummy. You don't have a reason to think I am scum other than the fact that I am pushing you (a towny place to push), that is why your vote on me is bad.

Also I am just obvtown at this point

This line, in particular, just isn't really saying anything? My push on you is not trash because you are scummy, I am not scummy because I am pushing you, it's just circular reasoning with no substance.

[maxwell]

I think Datisi's explanation for his hood choices are entirely reasonable,

In my mind Max, lotus, Andre's makes the most sense. Max's play is as I already described but the way they defend GC is pretty top tier scum play especially if they are shutting down a theory that scumbuddy Andre's is pushing.

This is completely nonsenical btw, it just posits a hypothetical based on nothing - that me interrupting andres's theorizing

would

be top tier scum play, not whether or not it's

likely

to be or why it's more likely to be coming from scum than town, nothing that's actually a substantive reason for us to be scum

Also seems notable that RLotus is somehow creeping into momrangal's scumreads despite her barely mentioning him at all before this

(and I lost literally every scum game I joined last year, don't talk to me about top tier scum play)

[maxwell]

Not really convinced by momrangal's meta arguments referencing a single other game - the comparisons aren't that dissimilar and someone being different in another game can be a result of different circumstances - not playing the exact same doesn't make them scum.

[maxwell]

I'll keep catching up tomorrow

[VP Baltar]

I'm not really liking the way RLotus is pushing on Datisi with his arguments but don't have a specific reason why. Also, if momrangal is scum, RLotus outing a guess of Datisi/me/mom and then focusing his attention almost solely on pushing Datisi is classically scummy rule of 3 stuff.

My push on you isn't trash, it is the natural place to look. Your position and VPB's position are scummy based on the flips. The fact that you think my push on you is trash and that you aren't questioning your read on VPB makes you look even more scummy. You don't have a reason to think I am scum other than the fact that I am pushing you (a towny place to push), that is why your vote on me is bad.

Also I am just obvtown at this point

This line, in particular, just isn't really saying anything? My push on you is not trash because you are scummy, I am not scummy because I am pushing you, it's just circular reasoning with no substance.

This is actually interesting. Wasn't Lotus the one who first interrupted andres' push on momrangal too?

[Datisi]

- yes. yes i'm serious. if you don't think the push is malicious then there's no reason to suspect me over it. yet you're *anyway* saying that you suspect em over it because again, "midway flipped town". so what the fuck are you considering then?

Oh I thought you were asking for my thoughts on who else to push for today, which both Andres and Baltar have asked and been answered.

Scum can push a mis elim without being shot posting about it. Town do anti town or suspicious stuff. Scum can identify it and exploit it. That makes their reasoning solid and not malicious but still from a scum mindset.

So no, just bc you didn’t push bad reasoning on midway doesn’t mean you’re vote on him doesn’t get factored in. You (and everyone else on the wagon) will have it as part of the totality of the circumstances analysis.

i mean i disagree about scum's reasoning not always being "malicious" because they're still *knowingly pushing town* but maybe this is a talking-past-each-other case. i'll ask a different q: do you think i was genuine in what i was pushing?

[Datisi]

In post 2822, RLotus wrote:
I don't see much difference from your opinions yesterday. Where have you re evaluated?

> arguing with you and trying to figure out if your points are bullshit or not
> trying to pull something out of dgb and dunn
> getting momrangal to explain her positions
> "where have you reevaluated?"

So you are completely wrong the past 2 days and you say hm I will poke and prod around. As opposed to, I don't know, looking at how the game has gone and trying to solve the game and find where you went wrong. Get out of here

My point is self evident and yet you keep being dense in your responses to me.

yes, exactly! because guess what! for me, reading someone like dunn or dgb will be miles easier if they start producing content now, as opposed to me combing through the early game, trying to reverse engineer their alignment by making guesses about the gamestate and others' alignments, especially when we have *no flipped scum yet*! wild!

[Datisi]

ok here's like, my problem here. lotus is apparently dead set on me being scum, saying my scumminess is apparent or whatever. (the last votecount seems to disagree w that but ok.) and he said baltar's one of his strong towns. ok. so by his perspective, i'm scum pocketing baltar, and you'd think his priority here, if he wants to see me get executed, is to make baltar see the light. *he's not doing that.*

i asked him about which games specifically did he meta, no response. how exactly is my play similar-to-scumgames here, no response. ok, you can argue that he doesn't wanna talk w ~blatant scum~. but other people, his townreads, are asking that too! a while ago, andres asked him to provide a more detailed comparison between my/baltar's solving (2642), did that happen? no not really, just his continuous jabs that whatever i'm doing today is not a solving mindset. baltar asked him to explain the "hook people" thing (2814), did that happen? nope, he just trailed off talking about green and momrangal, to then circle back to throw more baseless shade at me.

how is this town who's dead set on someone else being scum? he's vote parked me but, other than weak shade here and there, he doesn't seem that concerned with making me eat rope or stopping people from getting pocketed by me.

[Datisi]

I'm especially interested to hear people's thoughts on those two Elements wagons from D1. That feels like the biggest thing I didn't really know before writing all this out.

spitballing, i'd say there's scum on ele, regardless of their own alignment. if they're town, there probably was scum on them somewhere, while if they're scum, i doubt they'd not be getting a distancing/bus vote at some point, especially since ele is kinda yeet-baity and prone to getting yeeted. i don't know if the wagon means much for ele's alignment, though.

if ele is scum, most likely scum on that wagon being lotus or dunn? dunn wasn't doing much to push it, and lotus' hop on was weird (after he proclaimed other people to be scum) and he jumped to italiano as soon as there was momentum there. if town, maaaaybe also battle mage? idk.

looking forward, elements and lotus were the first ones to jump off dunn on sod2? :thonk: does that make sense?

god i fucking hate vca