Mini Normal 2197: Noraaland ~Endgame~

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: murdercat hello!

[Infinity 324]

Hmm

[Infinity 324]

Murder do you have thoughts on your wagon

[Infinity 324]

The thought of an all town wagon did cross my mind, but would consensus town really be that comfortable bringing any wagon that close to elimination within the first two pages?

Lol you were in the game where koba hammered you on like page 2 and they were your scumbuddy right?

[Infinity 324]

I'm here, I voted murder because I always RVS murder and the vote is now kinda serious

[Infinity 324]

I think she's a slight lean town for voting on the biggest wagon without concern for how it looks, since it helps her VCA.

[Infinity 324]

I liked how you asked me about titus, but I still think you're scum

[Infinity 324]

Why am I scum?

[Infinity 324]

I'm E-2, fyi

This post was scummy to me because it's like "hey make sure not to kill me" but you don't contribute anything.

[Infinity 324]

Meh I still think you're scum

[Infinity 324]

Murder what's stopping me from having a death's curse read on you? You know I have early gut reads like this as town, so is it like a BoP thing or what?

[Infinity 324]

Gut is the real reason you're scum, everything else is back justification. Also it's not fake? You were spectating pokemon battles right? I gut scumread chara from its first post, this isn't really a rare occurence

42 pinged me at first, I think it's just ari's writing style

[Infinity 324]

Yeah I didn't overstate it here though.

[Infinity 324]

I don't believe that your read on me hasn't developed since my first 3 nothing posts.

It has, your posts keep pinging me.

[Infinity 324]

I have history with murder, it's a soulread.

[Infinity 324]

There are spicier non-contributing posts. Why is this the most notable for you?

Murdercat has a lot of initiative as town usually, what other non-contributing posts are you talking about?

[Infinity 324]

Sure, it doesn't feel scum-indicative to me though.

[Infinity 324]

Like, italiano and ari aren't the type of players that strike me as "I'm gonna confidently tell you what's going on in this gamestate", they're more like "here's where I feel like I should be looking, what do you think?" And this feels like the latter

[Infinity 324]

I just don't see how you could possibly know that, the only time I had to sort you was student council

I can see you not believing I'd be this confident or something, but not believing I'd SR you here is, well, not believable to me.

[Infinity 324]

?

[Infinity 324]

Dude I literally told scum!you what you had to do to look town, I don't think what you've done was unfakeable at all, you know the way I read you is 90% gut. That's nonsense

[Infinity 324]

I was showing initiative well before that though

I just don't think it was very difficult to fake, like at all

[Infinity 324]

I'm not really one for soulreads especially within the first couple of pages. I'll leave it be since it's apparently not uncommon for Infinity but I also think it is an easy place for scum to hide and/or pockets to be lined depending on usage.

I get this, and I'll stop focusing on murder so much if it's not useful. To be fair, I think I would have trouble faking a read like this as scum, and I generally have trouble faking SRs as scum. I think murder should know that too, which is why I don't see his SR on me coming from town. Gamma mentioned the game he modded where I was scum and murder was town--there, murder had doubts about my alignment and lots of people (including his neighbor) were SRing me, but he was willing to cooperate with me and work with me for the time being. Here he's like not doing that, he asked me about titus but the cooperative energy isn't there.

Ok onto other slots.

[Infinity 324]

Oh and obligatory: I use soulreads like this because they work, generally the earlier the better.

[Infinity 324]

I am looking forward to statue's reads. I find his current post underwhelming because it seeks to undermine townreads but doesn't really put forth scumreads.

Summary: Infinity isn't persuasive. Maybe there's scum on the murdercat wagon, maybe not. ITB is strange (note: no conclusion). People townread Flea too easily. No conclusion as to who is townreading Flea too easily. No conclusion as to whether that's townie or scummy. No conclusion as to Flea's alignment.

A lot of words, but it says nothing. I want to see more.

This post feels towny, also I think it's towny for titus to speculate the me/murder scum theater, she likes to sound more reasonable as scum. Not sure I agree with statue scum.

Ari feels towny to me so far, and italiano feels very newb towny. Johnny is scummy for popping in and saying nothing. Very slight townpings on gamma.

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: johnny

[Infinity 324]

Noraa no

[Infinity 324]

I'm going to be busy the next couple days but I'll hope in soon thereafter

When you come back, I'm interested to know what you think of my vote

[Infinity 324]

Frankly, it's almost exactly as helpful to say that "there is definitely scum off the wagon," so I don't see any special reason to focus on people on the wagon vs people off the wagon, or to use it as a reason to SR anyone.

This exactly

[Infinity 324]

I wanna TR the effort from a new player, I don't agree that what you pointed out are scumtells for a new player

[Infinity 324]

And you are a rare and precious faerie and that's how you tricked me! <3

[Infinity 324]

What am I cagey about?

[Infinity 324]

Call it a gut read then

[Infinity 324]

Why did you ask me about it then?

Because it was RVS, I think it's fine to have opinions about the wagon then but in general I don't agree with the "scum on the wagon" thing

Do you have history with ari, murder? How do you usually read him?

[Infinity 324]

If you're town, and too lazy to meta him, he often gets SRed for his posting style so keep that in mind

[Infinity 324]

Murder why aren't you trying to sort me

[Infinity 324]

You've posted a lot about how you don't believe my SR on you, which makes no sense to me because you transparently are less energetic than usual and I had a similar read on you in death's curse

I feel like I could be wrong on you but the fact that you're accepting that as a reason to SR me and aren't trying to develop the read further is holding me back

[Infinity 324]

In student council you had way more energy than this, same with haunted village

Or at least, an attention to nuance

Or something is different idk

[Infinity 324]

And you're not thinking "hmm why would infinity do something like this as scum" , even if you have a good answer

Or questioning me

Like, you know me well enough that you have so many tools available for you to sort me that you're not using

[Infinity 324]

Yeah I guess what I'm getting at is maybe different from energy?

[Infinity 324]

I'm on it! I think it's a good wagon but I want to see more from johnny

[Infinity 324]

I thought your sig was just a lie lol

I'll keep that in mind ig

[Infinity 324]

I think as town you are unlikely to gut scum read me given it hasn't happened before. I think as scum, there is motivation to try to do it as I think you think that I would be suspicious of you soul TRing me or weakly SRing me.

Lol if you're town you're going too deep in a WIFOM hole, I'd probably just TR you as scum but try to make it look more natural than metal covers.

Also death's curse ere

But yeah I think you're more likely town here

[Infinity 324]

I think as town you are unlikely to gut scum read me given it hasn't happened before. I think as scum, there is motivation to try to do it as I think you think that I would be suspicious of you soul TRing me or weakly SRing me.

Lol if you're town you're going too deep in a WIFOM hole, I'd probably just TR you as scum but try to make it look more natural than metal covers.

Also death's curse ere

But yeah I think you're more likely town here

[Infinity 324]

Yeah, I hate the Ari wagon and infinity is squarely third in the wagon which is a comfy scum position

I'm not on the ari wagon? Also, to clarify, you think I'm more proactive than usual?

[Infinity 324]

Pokemon battles? Weird ok

[Infinity 324]

Yeah I do think I was more energetic than usual that game

[Infinity 324]

Energy levels change. I don't think that is a particularly strong reading mechanism.

I'm starting to get a gut town ping from Toog

This post should be NAI though right?

[Infinity 324]

These are like... two completely different things? Don't you think that you're stretching to make your MURDERCAT fit your read rather than your read fit MURDERCAT. Like, maybe you are right, and I'm not seeing it, but I think it would be good for you to step back and try looking at it from a different angle. It would serve as a precaution snd a sanity check that you aren't actually confirmation biasing yourself on this read.

Don't agree that they're different things, the more energy someone has, the more they will be diving into nuance and things like that. What did you think of me reversing my read?

[Infinity 324]

UNVOTE: I like johnny's last couple posts tbj

[Infinity 324]

How about when I tunneled gloria/isis in ss3

[Infinity 324]

Spoiler:

Not sure if you saw it, but just wanted to hear your thoughts on 32.

I was wondering if any of the other murder votes were serious

Did this somehow do anything for you trying to sort my slot?

No, maybe if you had responded in a way that connected the two situations it would've helped me sort you

In 72 you mentioned the real reason you scumread MURDER is because of gut so was your initial vote RVS or straight out gut?

? Murder hadn't posted when I made my initial vote. It was RVS

Were you serious?

Yes? It wasn't a "why would anyone think I'm scum???" I just wanted to see his reasoning

Eh, maybe, but what's there to contribute on page 2? And wouldn't he just say that in the scumchat?

Maybe an initial vibe/gut read or something? And maybe his scumbuddies were not on the wagon, or were on the wagon but offline and he wanted to make sure town didn't hammer him

If this soulread was as strong as you made it why jump off of it just because Ari calls you out? Do you still scumread MURDER? Is it some type of test or something?

? I absolutely still SRed murder at this point, but a bunch of people were disagreeing with me and the push was going nowhere so I decided to (try to) hold back for a bit

So you're saying Titus' theatre speculation is unreasonable?

I think it should be unlikely from her perspective, yes

Why?

She was SRing me before, one of the reasons I voted johnny was to see her reaction. Was she going to like the johnny wagon less or like me more? I thought it would be helpful to sort her.

This felt very busy work-y. Did you draft this post in a PT?

Fixed broken spoiler

[Infinity 324]

So what are we waiting for?

A good wagon

Also I think it's a bit too early in the day for a claim

[Infinity 324]

Wow this game has gone slow

I don't generally feel confident about a claim on page 16

[Infinity 324]

What would be different about them it's mostly wallposting?

I'll take a look tomorrow

[Infinity 324]

Italiano you said you hadn't forgotten about me but...

JV what's your read on me? (Also I wasn't on the wagon)

[Infinity 324]

Why isn't she confbiased town

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: JV they're giving me busy-worky vibes and playing it safe more than they usually do as town.

Where is italiano

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: JV they're giving me busy-worky vibes and playing it safe more than they usually do as town.

Where is italiano

Que? I think he vibes differently from bears

Strong disagree, especially when compared to their normal town game

They're normally all over the place and tunnely, and disengaged until something catches their attention. They're kind of disengaged here, but trying to appear engaged, which is very out-of-character

[Infinity 324]

Did you draft this post in a PT?

This was about 365

[Infinity 324]

Also MURDERCAT you have been somewhat quiet imo even though you have the most posts in the game. I don't know I've played two games with you I believe, and you just seemed more involved in those games; like a more lasting effect in your posts and movements. This game it feels like you are on the outside looking in instead of inside trying to figure things out.

This is odd that you just mention this now

[Infinity 324]

Well you had my eyes on my early SR on murder for a very similar reason, why didn't you point it out at the time?

VOTE: italiano you didn't scumslip but I still like this

[Infinity 324]

You've posted a lot about how you don't believe my SR on you, which makes no sense to me because you transparently are less energetic than usual and I had a similar read on you in death's curse

I feel like I could be wrong on you but the fact that you're accepting that as a reason to SR me and aren't trying to develop the read further is holding me back

In student council you had way more energy than this, same with haunted village

Or at least, an attention to nuance

Or something is different idk

[Infinity 324]

As for the johnny read: I've done a bit of meta on johnny, and he can be limbait, and hasn't been super engaged this game, so it doesn't take that much for me to TR him.

I'm bored. Who up?

Wassup Jacko. How you feel about the game so far?

This feels like a towny thing to do, disengaged scum can be uncomfortable engaging people 1-on-1 because it's easier to read people in interactions like that, so they could get caught.

I played a game where scum no killed so one of them could claim doc and ride that claim to victory. I think Gamma was there.

And nah, I voted Titus because they had the biggest "i know both these wagons are on townies" energy of anyone yesterday

No, vote Titus. Or disagree with me and tell me why. It's a short iso

I didn't agree with the read on titus, but I can see where it came from. The follow-up made me feel like he really believed in the read.

[Infinity 324]

Italiano is trying to look town, titus isn't

[Infinity 324]

?

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: JV they're giving me busy-worky vibes and playing it safe more than they usually do as town.

Where is italiano

Busy worky as Ive been busy working? Am confused

Busy worky as in you've been doing busy work rather than genuinely trying to find scum

[Infinity 324]

MURDERCAT is town based on how Infinity has interacted with them.

What do you think about me pushing JV and italiano too?

[Infinity 324]

Yeah, though I think the replace-out post is +town, but I wanna see what the replacement says

[Infinity 324]

Did the replacement request completely swap your read on Italiano, Infinity? You're still voting the slot.

I've seen scum replace out under pressure at least a half dozen times, so it NAI as far as I am concerned.

No I said it was +town not that italiano is town

I'm still leaning scum on the slot, that's why my vote is still there as you pointed out

The towny part is not replacing out under pressure, but making a post calling the people voting him idiots before doing so

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: Italiano

Infinity seems to be a dead wagon, and days are apparently 7 days now, so we should strive to get more done.

This worries me, infinity let's both be town are you worried about beginning? Also I assume you know who this is?

Idk, I've been getting townvibes from ITB, and I think I'd be able to read him based on his style? Cautious/wallposty scum generally feel very scummy to me

[Infinity 324]

I don't know who it is though

[Infinity 324]

Disagree, that is like super easy to fake. He had like 3 votes, town doesn't get worried/annoyed about that number of votes

The question is not whether it's easy to fake, it's whether scum who's replacing out and no longer gives a shit about the game bothers to do so

[Infinity 324]

UNVOTE:

[Infinity 324]

Jacksonvirgo

Explain?

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: JV

[Infinity 324]

Strong disagree, especially when compared to their normal town game

They're normally all over the place and tunnely, and disengaged until something catches their attention. They're kind of disengaged here, but trying to appear engaged, which is very out-of-character

I may have to reread bears, basically it feels like JV is playing safe like they did there, and there's a tone that I can't quite describe but it feels like fake curiosity, and that reminds me of bears too. (JV uses they/them)

[Infinity 324]

Yeah I skimmed their ISO before looking at their alignment, and I leaned scum. They're more relaxed in that game, but there's a certain je-ne-sais-quoi about JV's town game. Generally it involves tunnelling.

[Infinity 324]

I definitely did NOT play safe in bears lmfaooo

In terms of day play yeah you did for the most part

[Infinity 324]

But like, do you wait for a powersolver to solve a game for you normally?
And you're waiting for "something fun" instead of, like, doing something to make it happen?

Why not wait for fae to do faer thing instead of just calling faer scum off the bat?

[Infinity 324]

Hi let's elim jackson

[Infinity 324]

Haschel, as far as I know, ari changes his mind under pressure a lot as town, I don't find the read switch particularly AI

[Infinity 324]

Have you ever considered that people don't want to elim me because I'm town

[Infinity 324]

Why are you SRing gamma slot

[Infinity 324]

Fleas town. This is faes town meta, and no matter much fae tries, fae is lhf. Why are you interested in fae and why is fae offering less than infinity? I don't actually see much effort from infinity here

Are you familiar with flea's scum meta?

[Infinity 324]

I'm capable of faking depth as scum, I'm just not really as motivated for mafia atm

[Infinity 324]

Am I the third scum member? How about dann, is he scum with us too?

[Infinity 324]

[3] Infinity 324: Momrangal, Flea the Magician, In the beginning

my opinion is that these votes should move to ari or flea

Why is flea scum?

[Infinity 324]

What do you think about the dann slot

[Infinity 324]

I don't think mom is scum

[Infinity 324]

Strong gut feeling ig

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: flea I like this better than ari ig

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: flea I like this better than ari ig

it's not really just between these two

why are you being so lazy

I don't SR anyone else besides your slot, your slot obviously isn't gaining tractioon

[Infinity 324]

JV felt like they were playing very safe and asking questions to look present rather than actually scumhunting

[Infinity 324]

Flea has a very good scumgame, I don't know how to read her, the other option is ari who is face up town imo

[Infinity 324]

faer* sorry

[Infinity 324]

Silent star 3

viewtopic.php?t=84991&f=23&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

[Infinity 324]

Could've sworn ITB was crumbing an inno, oops

VOTE: dann

[Infinity 324]

viewtopic.php?t=85951&f=2&st=0&sk=t&sd= ... er_sort=Go

That's a joint mod ISO for people who want to look at VCs

It looks to me like dann wasn't on the elim wagon?

[Infinity 324]

Could've sworn ITB was crumbing an inno

[Infinity 324]

Yeah, Ari is town here. Look elsewhere please people.

one of them is a slot I am not considering limming today. At all.

I remember starting to TR you on d1 but I don't remember why, I'll have to revisit the read

[Infinity 324]

?? Why would I TR you here, you haven't done anything murdercat-y

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: beginning

Why did you TR ari?

[Infinity 324]

Why should I not have townread Ari?

I just want to know what your reasoning was because you seemed very sure

[Infinity 324]

I was as sure in that read as in my other reads. Nothing more, nothing less.

I just want you to explain the reasoning that led you to townread ari. That's all

[Infinity 324]

it like... suits them better... or something?

Is the "or something" doubting the scum motivation for toog to play like this, or doubting the town motivation?

[Infinity 324]

I was as sure in that read as in my other reads. Nothing more, nothing less.

I just want you to explain the reasoning that led you to townread ari. That's all

Can you stop dodging the question please

[Infinity 324]

Yeah, Ari is town here. Look elsewhere please people.

one of them is a slot I am not considering limming today. At all.

I was also TRing him independently of the crumb for sure, but this was certainly part of it

[Infinity 324]

GODDAMMIT JV GET OUT OF MY HEAD!
Okay I really like that we are coming at this game from like the exact same place. Townread for JV is fucking solid!

Ehh this doesn't quite feel like a partner post.

Neither does ari's push on flea or shading of toog I think.

[Infinity 324]

His interactions with titus/johnny are a bit +scum for both slots, I'm still leaning town on titus though, not sure on johnny

[Infinity 324]

I know I haven't been the most active this game, but people really need to post more with the shorter deadlines. Also I want to talk to someone about the game

[Infinity 324]

{mara, toog, murder, titus}
{dann, johnny, salsa}
{itb}

is where I'm at now I guess? I think I've been confbiasing on the dann slot, and even with that I haven't found much scummy that he's done

[Infinity 324]

Neither does ari's push on flea

Flea is elimmed?

Hey that means I was right :)

[Infinity 324]

I bet you didn't get there based on interactions with ari though ;)

[Infinity 324]

I believe I'm at E-1

[Infinity 324]

I think you are correct. Want to try to case beginning?

My only reasoning for SRing him is that his defense of ari was bad and seemed out-of-proportion with how he's talking about it now

Like he said "I'm not considering limming ari today, at all" and now he's like "oh I just thought he was more likely to be town, is all"

Why do you think beginning is scummy?

I'll claim with intent

I'm not sure why I'm being run up tbh, I don't think people have any good reasons to SR me

[Infinity 324]

Keep in mind, I hadn't played with ari since his scum meta was to not play, I think that had a pretty big influence on my read, even though I knew his meta had changed

[Infinity 324]

Johnny what are your thoughts on dann?

[Infinity 324]

Meh ok, I'm a n1, n3 JK, targeted mom n1

[Infinity 324]

I don't think mom is scum

Strong gut feeling ig

That's what this was about

I think you're town, murder, after your play this day

Salsa is towny too I think.

Murder who are your strongest TRs?

[Infinity 324]

{JohnnyFarrar, Momrangal, Titus} - these 3 are basically conf town and we should never lim them. I think us 4 can town block?

I'm still good with this list. I feel like Beginning/Dann is making sense as a solve?

Maybe?

Can you explain why you're so confident johnny/titus are town?

[Infinity 324]

Short story number three: Queen Noraa and her search for the mysterious dragon, Ydrasse.
Part 3~

Noraa get ur shit together, where's part 1

Is johnny town for the ari push?

[Infinity 324]

Did titus claim something that I missed

[Infinity 324]

That's not very occam's razor-y, scum wouldn't take your babysitter claim seriously, and I'm just not sure why you would be killed n1?

[Infinity 324]

That's not very occam's razor-y, scum wouldn't take your babysitter claim seriously, and I'm just not sure why you would be killed n1?

We don't know why I would be the n1 kill. It's a conclusion we're drawing based on HC and Italiano's ISO.

This. But also the fact that scum killed Haschel suggests they may have been looking for someone who protected Titus versus someone who protected Mom (otherwise it's more likely you would be dead infinity)

Why would scum kill me? I'm probably gonna be mislimmed at some point

Also I didn't really leave clues

Forgot that haschel flipped protective, I'm fine with having titus as <rand scum on mechanics, and she was a TR anyway.

I protected mom because I thought she was pretty obvtown iirc, and she was playing more out there than when she was a PR in bears with guns

[Infinity 324]

Actually wait, Infinity + Haschel makes a lot of sense for why there were 0 kills on N1

I'm not sure we should talk about this too much

What's Infinity's claim again?

N1, N3 jk

[Infinity 324]

I guess I'm just surprised you went for a town read and not a scum read

That's the correct way to use JK early on imo

[Infinity 324]

Noraa get ur shit together, where's part 1

Oops it's under your other account

Toog I'm pretty sure I could find links of mini normals with 1 stronger protective and one weaker one, it's not that uncommon I don't think?

[Infinity 324]

I don't even think it's a gypyx thing, doctor isn't a cc to 2-shot BG imo

[Infinity 324]

Fair enough lol

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: dann

I protected murder

[Infinity 324]

Fair enough, scum still can't quickhammer though

PEdit: normally massclaim happens day before ELo right? So now?

[Infinity 324]

I can't case him, I can talk a bit about why I thought JV was scummy though? It's mainly just that they're really obvtown as town, and they were asking questions that didn't seem to have towny intent

[Infinity 324]

Unfortunately I think I'll have to be limmed before endgame

[Infinity 324]

Maybe

[Infinity 324]

Toog and salsa have both felt town to me, but also I don't know where the other scum could be so idk

[Infinity 324]

What is your current read list?

Damn scum, idk where the other scum is. Toog/titus or maybe you is my thought? There's still a decent chance titus was protected n1, but I'm wondering why she's still alive, and she isn't that towny by play

[Infinity 324]

Spoiler: JV not solving

Oh, good catch Italiano. E-1 this early is a bit much.

I agree there is likely scum there, will take a look in a bit. Any thoughts on who looks like a culprit there?

Vote on Ari now srs.

VOTE: Ari

Murder do you have thoughts on your wagon

A couple yeah. I think Flea is ever so lean towny. You and Gamma get a pass. The vote I'd be most worried about is pikachu but I'd probably do that as town, so it's fine. ITB I am just going to sort later.

What do you make of Titus Infinity?

Could you explain the reasonings behind this vote?

I'm not really sure what to think of MURDERCAT's hero solve. It seems not to jive with what his perspective should be, namely that scum deliberately wagoned him to claim. Which would mean at least one of Statue and Beginning should be in his solve. Also, Ari being in his solve is entirely opportunistic. If MURDERCAT is scum and the rule of 3 applies then Infinity should be scum as well.

Isn't a hero solve generally something you give a stab in the dark? But yeah I think you're strongly town from this

Also sorry for the inactivity, had irl issues going on including being sick

I don't like the top wagons.

We should just
VOTE: No Lim

instead.

Yeah this is just bad, I like my vote where it is

Actually

I don't think I like titus this game

Oh why's that? I am going to disagree with you here

I wanna TR the effort from a new player, I don't agree that what you pointed out are scumtells for a new player

Effort is not telling of alignment

My vote is serious and my tone is not

What does this mean?

---

In The Beginning: That vote to, quite deliberately, put MC at E-1 was scummy af. The no-elimination vote is super weird, but doesn't make any sense for scum to do, and I don't he's done anything scummy since. Probably town.

Scummy as fuck, does things that don't make sense, and then done nothing scummy for a while = probably town?

---

I feel like Johnny is just rolling over, which seems like something town do more often than scum.

Are you saying you TR both Statue and Farrar?

[6] JohnnyFarrar: Aristophanes, Titus, Infinity 324, Gamma Emerald, JacksonVirgo, StatueSurfer [E-1]

I have words about this once I finish catching up, probably bad if I say it now and I will also likely forget so poke me about it if so

Back to this now that I've caught up.

I am not the greatest fan of Statue's vote here, and I am currently trying to gauge, if they're scum, if it's an opportunistic vote or a bus type of vote. I'll have to look back

I'm gonna move MC up to my strongest townlean.

Do you have TRs at all or is MC simply your strongest town atm

[Infinity 324]

Now, we see at N2, there were 2 kills which means the mafia team has 2 killer roles, right?

Not possible in a normal, also one of the deaths was scum. I suspect we have a N2 vig

[Infinity 324]

Dann should claim first, he probably should've claimed before toog

[Infinity 324]

Wait until he gets replaced

I don't want to let scum gain an advantage in the claim order by lurking

[Infinity 324]

So far for claims/flipped roles, we have:

Loyal alien
Backup gunsmith
N1,3 JK
Odd-night motion detector

[Infinity 324]

Plus some sort of vig power

[Infinity 324]

Looks to me like he's gonna claim scum by replacing out

[Infinity 324]

I think we should wait until everyone has claimed

[Infinity 324]

Did you realize toog motion detected you last night and got a positive

[Infinity 324]

Dann is confirmed scum per toog's motion detect unless someone claims to have targeted him

[Infinity 324]

So far for claims/flipped roles, we have:

Loyal alien
Backup gunsmith
N1,3 JK
Odd-night motion detector

Plus a novice 1-shot vig

This seems like not much power tbh, even for 3 goons. The alien is the only strong PR, everything else is either severely limited or just a weak role. The backup gunsmith is just a named townie

[Infinity 324]

Honestly if scum had claimed a weak investigative I probably would've treated it as confirmed town lol

Imo me and toog have to be town for the setup to work

[Infinity 324]

I'm leaning towards titus, but it could be salsa or johnny.

I didn't think about scum potentially having a gunsmith, but that wouldn't make a ton of sense because it only has one positive. Or is the backup gunsmith positive too? Either way, it's still probably a greater benefit to scum than town

[Infinity 324]

And tbh, 2 goons and a gunsmith seems like a weak mafia team.

Imo it's a very weak town, but I might have bad setup spec or it's based on old site meta. In bears I wrongly TRed JV because I thought town didn't have enough power so /shrug

Still don't think you can be scum here

[Infinity 324]

UNVOTE:

[Infinity 324]

Maybe? It's mostly based on play, I think gamma was playing to his town meta and salsa has a lot of newb townie energy like she did in panic room

[Infinity 324]

I'll do some ISOs at some point, probably in the night phase

[Infinity 324]

I think that's mostly a result of the game being dead

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: dann

[Infinity 324]

I feel like an idiot for JKing murder now

[Infinity 324]

I JKed him on N3, also a vig being NKed doesn't stop his shot. All kills happen at the same time

[Infinity 324]

I wish I was an odd-night JK, then we could no lim and see what happens, I'm a N1 and N3 JK, which means if we no lim toog will just die and we're back where we started. It's probably correct to do so anyway, but we should still think about who scum is now. I haven't decided between you and titus

[Infinity 324]

I agree, I want to use the time to figure things out though

[Infinity 324]

If I'm scum, I have to be a JK or roleblocker right? Otherwise murder gets to big on N3. I don't think the setup is balanced then (maybe if I'm just a N3 roleblocker?)

Still remember mom being a lot more obvtown than you d1 but maybe scum disagreed

[Infinity 324]

I want to no elim, especially if you don't. It makes your life harder in the unlikely scenario that you're scum and doesn't really have a downside

[Infinity 324]

I've gotten townvibes from everyone still alive, especially from you. I got more townvibes from titus than salsa, but the chance that titus was saved n1 makes me lean a bit towards salsa atm. Have to reread though.

[Infinity 324]

? I gave my reads and am gonna reread when I have time, I'm not gonna say that I know who the last scum is when I don't

[Infinity 324]

Salsa a lot of those things I already explained in my ISO, which you presumably read, so I don't really want to go through them again. I explained 23 in 372, and I also explained what I thought murder could've contributed on page 1. I explain my johnny read in 495. Also, the accusation that I supported JV in 321 is pretty ridiculous, I asked the question because I thought JV's post might've been scummy, and I then proceeded to push the JV/dann slot as scum pretty much all the way up until it was dead.

[Infinity 324]

You answered this question: And wouldn't he just say that in the scumchat?. What about the contribution part?

"Maybe an initial vibe/gut read or something?"

Honestly I felt like there was quite a bit he could've talked about there, like what he thought about his wagon. He could've made a naked vote on someone he thought was a bit scummy, or for a reaction. Anything people do in the early game he could've done there, I think it's kind of a silly question

[Infinity 324]

Do people normally just not post on page 3 or...?

[Infinity 324]

Sorry I'm being lazy, I will properly respond to salsa and do my own ISOs tomorrow

[Infinity 324]

I think toog wanted a believable explanation for what happened last night

[Infinity 324]

Titus what did you think dann was going to claim?

[Infinity 324]

Ok

Over the night phase I ISOd you and salsa, and decided salsa was townier, there were a couple things I thoughts were towny from you, like your JV vote on d2, and I thought it would be weird to say that you knew what partner would claim. It makes more sense that dann was set up to be bussed, because otherwise you would just tell him to...not claim VT. It's possible that you killed salsa to make me suspicious of toog given that I implied it would make me sus of toog yesterday, but I don't think that's likely

[Infinity 324]

Toog, why didn't titus tell dann to claim something other than VT?

[Infinity 324]

I'll get to this today

[Infinity 324]

Why did you suspect salsa yesterday?

[Infinity 324]

I think I'm changing my mind, will elaborate tomorrow

[Infinity 324]

Toog why did you motion detect salsa?

[Infinity 324]

I ISO'd toog and I kinda can't see their ISO as anything but yowm

[Infinity 324]

What caused your switch there?

I was all excited about this when I was in bed a couple days ago and when I actually go to post this game just feels like work

Basically:

-I believe the setup makes more sense with toog's role than without it
-I think it can usually TR town!you than I did here. The last thing I remember TRing you for this game was on the first few pages, and I TRed you pretty easily? in among us mafia despite you not being that engaged
-Occam's razor says toog didn't guilty their partner
-Yes maybe hasch protected you but even that is less than a 50% chance in a vacuum because we don't know who he protected, also I think scum was more likely to kill mom than you because you were decently suspected
-Toog's ISO reads very uninformed
-I feel like a bunch of people suspected you throughout the game but no one really hard pushed you or tried to keep you out of the townbloc

[Infinity 324]

I also don't like how you keep being sold on different people being scum, given how disengaged you are you're more likely to just go "idk" as town, and maybe wait until you have/time energy to do some work in thread

[Infinity 324]

That's not what I'm saying at all, I think town!you would probably post what you're thinking about on both sides, maybe go back and forth, but generally it would feel more indecisive than the below posts? It's kind of a tone thing.

Infinity feels townier because his stances align with mine.

I find SF's tone incredibily fake and melodramatic. Her reasons don't amount to conftown Toog and it feels like she's attempting to pit me and infinity against each other. She retreats rapidly when called out on any position.

Looking at the votes, I'm inclined to think Toog since Infinity has more of a presence on voting scum but Dannflor did spend the day before he was a wet fish voting Toog. I'll need to dig in for more context.

I don't feel like you've given me too much to engage. You said you don't really believe my claim, which is fine, I'm not really sure how my claim would look from the outside and toog also didn't believe it at first. I do think my role makes the game more balanced, but so would toog's fypov

[Infinity 324]

I'm in lylo because I was a likely elim target for a while, and you wanted me to vote toog because I had indicated I would suspect them if still alive. Toog confirms this by saying they expected me to suspect them, which I believe regardless of their alignment.

[Infinity 324]

I want to no elim, especially if you don't. It makes your life harder in the unlikely scenario that you're scum and doesn't really have a downside

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: titus

Yeah sure.

[Infinity 324]

Town win :)

[Infinity 324]

Unless you did a delayed quickhammer lol

[Infinity 324]

:(

[Infinity 324]

You played great

[Infinity 324]

2 strong PRs and 2 weak ones feels weak against significant scum power, but that's based on my 4-year-old intuitions about balance I guess.

[Infinity 324]

Again, based on my outdated setup intuitions, this would be balanced if you gave town a 2-shot cop

[Infinity 324]

In this game the only power that was relevant was 1 shot of the vig (and the no kill was a bit helpful I guess), and it didn't feel particularly unlucky for town

[Infinity 324]

I think this was overall pretty balanced actually but look at the power Town had.

Not disputing any of this, I do think my intuitions are outdated

The thing that happened this game which made the alien protect not a clear is probably a pretty common occurrence for this setup though. All that has to happen is for the alien to die before they claim.

To me the gunsmith/backup gunsmith combo should favor scum because it's pretty unlikely the scum role dies before the town one, but it's true that the upside to town is higher.

[Infinity 324]

In this game the only power that was relevant was 1 shot of the vig (and the no kill was a bit helpful I guess), and it didn't feel particularly unlucky for town

This isn't really right, the vig getting blocked isn't great, and if the alien lives longer/gets a save on n2 it's way better for town. I guess it's a function of most of the town's power being protective, small-probability events increase town's winrate by a lot. I enjoy setups that have guaranteed clears more I guess

[Infinity 324]

I understand that, and it's definitely a style of game design. I am far more partial to encouraging dayplay despite the roles present. I love a good undermining of expectations and this game had a lot of that.

Having a role that clears/guilties can really demoralize scum and generally it's not worth the tradeoff imo.

I can see why, I don't really think my style would value dayplay less so much as it increases the odds that the night actions do their job for town. I'd much rather play a game where 70% of the time if I play decent I win and 30% I get a tough break from the setup than a game where 70% of the time I have to play really well to win and 30% of the time everything goes amazing and the game is pretty easy. I can see why it would be less enjoyable for scum the other way around though. However, splitting the power up more between the roles will probably help swinginess on both sides, and I still do think it would be nice to have a real investigative for town (doesn't have to be an actual cop obviously).

In conclusion, normals suck, I'm going back to the open/micro/theme queues :)

[Infinity 324]

Gunsmith/Backup was a cool interaction but it had the potential to decimate the scumteam. You take away scum numbers and reward town with a means to do that even more thoroughly. We were lucky the backup went down and that the main Gunsmith outlived them, because that could have recked us.

I wouldn't say you had to get lucky for the backup to die before the gunsmith, since town roles die at a faster rate than scum. It was another "oops we win" factor that could've went town's way though.