Happy Face Mafia (Game Over)

[Titus]

Do you guys think the top 2 wagons day 1 are both scum?

I also dont think titus is scum here

I'm pretty sure T3 is scum and his partners are ineffective players.

PP Dunn T3 is my solve.

[Retti]

Do you have a reason for T3 scum that is not related to him voting you?

[Andante]

Ok, this is going to be a super long post, but the TLDR at the end here is, I feel good about my Titus read, but I'm not 100% sold, at least I can see both sides now. Basically, I love Titus's lines, they SCREAM town, and it's exactly how I am as town. But I'm not truly sold about their Bell read/interaction. Like, the tone of "I really hope I am right on RMH though. It looks less likely to be the case with the self vote." feels like a very defeated Titus, like, "I have been defending you all day... and now you give up... sigh"

*Ok, I just typed all this, again. I am SO sorry it's so long... at the end I went on a tangent.. oops... I'd love to know what everyone thinks of Titus, lets resolve this today. (Please also include WHY you tr/sr... I know some of you struggle with sharing reasonings, but the reasoning is what actually helps this...)

Romance v Bell, I'll weigh in.

VOTE: Romance

^ This is one of those rare instances we get both alignments of a read to look back on. It's also in RVS I get that, a bunch of votes were between the 2 there:

Romance: Bell, T3, Titus, samantha
Bell: BEAR, Flea

Honestly, My take away from this would probably be more BEAR/Flea town, than the 4 being scummy, Unless it's common for the first wagon of the game to be scum voting each other, then ignore me, but I feel like scum wouldn't vote each other that soon given the chance.

the no flavorclaim rule makes me wonder if flavor just confirms people as town, or if there's some kind of hunting situation like dark/light fairy from the last boon game

I thought this too but I can't see any further positive than can come from further speculation and the risk of modkill is too high. So for now, no flavorclaim discussion if you don't mind.

^ I like this post, like, it reads as town to me, like "hey don't get modkilled" With an 18p game, wouldn't scum be rooting for mod kills to make their lives easier? I also believe that discussion would mainly benefit mafia, like another flavor game I've played, so by stopping the convo completely, there's no more hints of info, and I TR this.

Someone say they feel I am town or scum so we can start to break RVS.

Either that or comment on Romance wagon which is a gun to my head wagon on scum.

^I like the "wanting to get out of RVS" probably not the best way to get out of it, I normally tend to push on someone random for their "terrible entrance" then they take it seriously, and we move on, there's better ways to get out of RVS than going "hey, lets get on with this" Not sure why you yourself didn't comment on that Romance wagon, but I understand trying to grab town's attention, like "hey we got 4 votes super quickly, give thoughts" to clarify, I don't think I really sr this post, reminds me of my thoughts in a game... which also consist of a lot of behind the scenes yelling lmao.

Ok Titus is scum. convince me otherwise.

There is a vote feature.

who cares about that. convince me you are town.

Not going to towncase myself. I'm going to hunt scum. Deal with it.

^ This has to be a towny response, like my response to "convince me you're town" is "I know I'm town, so let's find scum" like, I'm feeling my read on Titus is basically me going "that's how I am when I'm town" lmao this is probably going to be a useless read then.. BUT I do genuinely like these lines from Titus. Like, "Not going to towncase myself. I'm going to hunt scum. Deal with it." feels like town going "no thanks, I'd rather find scum" which is exactly how I feel town would react here.

Bear, it's expected your hydra will have many posts. That's not an in depth secret, nor is Romance claiming your volume suggests something about your alignment.

I find it odd you're objecting to Romance but you're quiet on Willow.

VOTE: Bear hydra

^ By this point in the game, Bear didn't really have in depth posts (like what they're giving now) so I can see the thought process behind Titus's vote- I understand it was a real read based on RVS, but I feel like this is a reasonable vote given the context.

I think VFP v Willow is T v T (skimmed it) but VFP could be scum by voting pattern (weak reason due to low data).

I'm content letting them both live today and ignoring their back and forth because it is tedious "no you" comments.

^ This is exactly how I feel when a strong argument between people feels TvT to me, I also skim it, cause I don't care to read paragraphs on paragraphs of people going after each other, especially when it's only the 2 voices. I also like the fact Titus outed a possible sr and admitted it was a weak reason, like, thoughts like that are usually what I keep in my head, and jot down in my notes, again, same thought process as me when I'm town. If Titus is scum I'm gonna cry here cause I wanna say they're town due to them acting just like me as town, but what if this is actually I act like scum as town ahhhhhh

don't call it tvt if you're not going to read it, blame it on both of us if you want but that is exactly what I was trying to avoid and drawing a conclusion without reading it is awful

steer clear if you want but jesus

I draw my conclusions based on how players react to each other, rather than individual posts where I can. I have seen this type of posting before and it's usually not S v S, and that would elicit a certain reaction from other slots (no one in particular) I am not seeing.

I don't need to read every post in minute detail to get a jist of the behavior, so I won't.

You and I will have conflict because we process the game in different ways.

That's ok. You'll be useful to me to talk about emotion and tone later to check my reads.

It takes a village to solve the game for a reason.

I'm perfectly willing to discuss your reads on other slots, particularly t3 and Dunn.

On a side note as I go to bed, I want to take back my comment of this game being slow 3 pages ago, I was wrong.

The game still is slow. The volume of your Willow fight is not moving the game forward. Engage elsewhere.

^ This is in response to the post right above this, Willow feels super hostile here in 449,Feels like they're just trying to pick a fight (exactly why I don't read the 1v1 fights) however, Titus's response to this hostile "don't say anything if you're not gonna read it" feels like a super towny approach. It's very calm, and feels like it's trying to diffuse the situation, which is good for town. I mean, why not just let 2 people blow up and waste their 200 posts if you're scum? I LOVED this response from Titus though.

Bell should be the flip. I don't like to address the hippocrates in the room as much as the next guy, but Bell has tonnes of motivation and will to play the game as town, while he really has to force himself to post as scum. Him not having the willpower to dedicate some time to this game is very scum-indicative.

-Bam

While this is true of Bell, his exit post counteracts the lack of effort. Scum!Bell would just exit. Town!Bell left content. Him subbing out alone is not AI as we all have RL sometimes.

^ I understand not really reading into substitutions and all, but Titus has had minimal interactions with/about Bell all game (yes I know bell didn't say a lot) but if you haven't talked about someone, why have a line like this?? Yes I also liked Bell's exit post, but like it feels like you're defending Bell here off the 1 post, and you haven't even commented specifically off it. "Town bell would leave us with something, scum wouldn't" It's like, he just flipped scum and definitely left something, so that point just got proven wrong. But it's also like, Bell probably knew, just subbing out would leave that slot as confirmed scum, and normally people don't wreck their game then sub. Your response feels very "Bell town, just leave bell alone" without and actual substance to that read.

Anyone not seeing that this is staged Bell then Noraa flips is out of their minds imo.

Wait what do you mean by this?

Flip Bell.
Bell flips town.
Flip Noraa.
Noraa flips wrong town.

^This is a weird post, I just had to highlight it. Like, again, we're defending Bell, but we haven't given a solid reason as to why we think Bell is town other than "Bell posted before subbing, thus Bell town, but the sub isn't AI!!!" Anything related to Bell from Titus is throwing me, this is where I'm like, I understand the fos on Titus, but I can also see the TRs on Titus, I'd like to believe the Towny points outweight the scummy ones. Like, this post is a pretty bold "Bell is flipping town" which is really bold to say, instead of just bussing your scummy partner, HOWEVER, I'd have liked to seen more of a solid reason for why Bell was flipping town, maybe I missed it, but idk.

if robertbell is town, who is mafia?

I still think Raya is scum regardless.

I know RMH's posting hasn't been good and Retti is almost certainly town.

I really hope I am right on RMH though. It looks less likely to be the case with the self vote.

It really doesn't matter FMPOV if RMH is town, he's still the better play with Retti being obvtown. RMH's death, if town, confirms multiball which creates an interesting dynamic. It also weakens RMH's value. If RMH flips cop, it's unfortunate but still the optimal play as Retti is town. Scum Retti holds his gladiate I think unless his gladiate gates a stronger scum power.

^ This is where Titus kinda unravels after all the solid "Bell is flipping town!!" but saying stuff like "RMH's death weakens his value" like, what were you trying to say here? this almost feels like a panicked scum going "I could've saved Bell, but RMH isn't doing a good job at all, time to earn town points by hopping on the bus" I'm just overall confused when it comes to where Titus's thought process was/ was going with the Bell read. Like, Titus was trying to push a Raya wagon (the counter to Bell at the time) and it looks like more effort was going to Raya than Bell. All this is where I'm like, My TR on Titus is falling apart, and I would absolutely love for everyone to weigh in on where they're at with Titus. jj going "let's discus raya/titus" without saying a word?? like, There is PLENTY to discuss with Titus. Wheme going "I also dont think titus is scum here" WHY?? YOU HAVE TO EXPLAIN SOMETHING IF YOU WANT IT TO MAKE SENSE TO US - Unless you're scum just trying to ride whatever the popular read is... I HATE lines that call someone town/scum with 0 reason behind them. I literally just skimmed Wheme's ISO in case maybe I was wrong on that previous statement and Wheme had said something. Nope. Nothig from Wheme, just a super dry ISO.



Sorry for the mega long post, and it's not even like I come out of this going "Titus is lock town/scum" I'm legit just super confused, so I'll reread what yall are saying today on Titus, but I have to step away and do something real quick. tbh I don't even know. like, to me, town points outweigh scum points. It's a lot harder to earn town points in my books, so I should end on at least "Titus is leaning town" which is actually what I think I'll go with, BUT, I hate having the scum points I can't explain as coming from town. like, these scum points with the Bell stuff, I literally can't see coming from a town mindset, BUT the town points are points that I do not see coming from scum, and Titus has a lot more of those, ahhhh


@Titus I know all this is stupid long, but I do have some questions I'd love some answers on
* What made you TR Bell initially? - other than "bell subbed out and left something"
* Why did you push the Raya wagon instead of trying to convince the Bell voters Bell was town?

[jjh927]

Do you guys think the top 2 wagons day 1 are both scum?

I also dont think titus is scum here

I don't think Titus is scum either

Raya is. I think it was all town on the Raya wagon, so scum could have tried to move pressure away from the Bell wagon and they didn't

[WhemeStar]

Do you guys think the top 2 wagons day 1 are both scum?

I also dont think titus is scum here

I'm pretty sure T3 is scum and his partners are ineffective players.

PP Dunn T3 is my solve.

I was told town PP is inactive and scum PP tries to lead the game

[samantha97]

told by who

[Titus]

@Adante, I'll respond to your wall in detail but I'll comment on two reasons why I townread Bell.

First, the meta used to eliminate him is inaccurate. I just finished two games with an active scum Bell. Team Large Normal and another game that the name eludes me.

Second, there was chaining of eliminations if Bell flipped town. That scared me.

Third, there were other players with more vapid ISOs.

[Titus]

Do you guys think the top 2 wagons day 1 are both scum?

I also dont think titus is scum here

I'm pretty sure T3 is scum and his partners are ineffective players.

PP Dunn T3 is my solve.

I was told town PP is inactive and scum PP tries to lead the game

Hearsay meta.

I object!

[Titus]

Raya is. I think it was all town on the Raya wagon, so scum could have tried to move pressure away from the Bell wagon and they didn't

Counterpoint, as much as Raya is my backup.

They may not have had time to do so given the gladiate.

[Titus]

The other Bell game was Among Us.

[Flea The Magician]

Do you guys think the top 2 wagons day 1 are both scum?

I also dont think titus is scum here

I'm pretty sure T3 is scum and his partners are ineffective players.

PP Dunn T3 is my solve.

I was told town PP is inactive and scum PP tries to lead the game

You've played with the Peng before though, so why go on what you're told and not on what you know from previous live play?

[Bear HUGS]

I'll be honest I didn't even notice Esoaa's excellent case on why Bell is scum b4 today.

Esoaa locktown

jjh's rebuttal of Esoaa feels kind of gross in comparison

VOTE: jjh

Titus,

the meta issue isn't whether Bell-scum can be active. Bell-scum can certainly play an active opening if properly motivated and with sufficient free time.

It's that I've never see Bell-town be that soft on entry - it doesn't take Bell-town energy to look townie so he always looks really townie when he's actually town.

[Titus]

Oh and I also did highlight the meta was wrong. I argued it and tried to get a counterwagon to Bell.

[Titus]

Titus,

the meta issue isn't whether Bell-scum can be active. Bell-scum can certainly play an active opening if properly motivated and with sufficient free time.

It's that I've never see Bell-town be that soft on entry - it doesn't take Bell-town energy to look townie so he always looks really townie when he's actually town.

You're denying it's activity while outright stating he was soft, which is another word for activity.

We got lucky. Why we did is a whole other question?

[jjh927]

Esoaa has been locktown for a long time but I don't remember a particular case

Please elaborate

[Bear HUGS]

Esoaa has been locktown for a long time but I don't remember a particular case

Please elaborate

you literally refuted Esoaa's case on bell!scum

[jjh927]

I recall questioning why Esoaa scumread Bell and having a brief conversation about it

[jjh927]

I think there was an awful lot of activity based stuff in there and the case being correct doesn't necessarily make it excellent

[jjh927]

Which of the three of you am I speaking to right now?

[Bear HUGS]

You're denying it's activity while outright stating he was soft, which is another word for activity.

The logic you are using is flawed, what you would need to disprove the meta argument I used is evidence of inactive Town!Bell not active Scum!Bell, and even if you did have such an example you would need overwhelming numbers to overturn a meta-argument that relies on a large number of examples.

Anyway I don't think there's any point to continue to litigate the issue.

He was scum, we got him. Yay.

Let's catch the rest of the bad guys

[Titus]

@Bear,

Talk to me about T3, Dunn, PP and Raya.

I'd like to vote somewhere I feel is likely scum.

[jjh927]

I mean, you don't actually need to disprove meta arguments because they are inherently flawed

[Bear HUGS]

jjh and samantha are the two that I'm most interested in eliminating.

I don't like the way samantha jumps on and off the bell wagon it feels like a scumbag who wants to get bus-cred but then changes her mind when its possible to get away with a different elim and then changes her my back to bussing.

jjh's conversation with Esooa when she first scumreads Bell feels very much like a scumbag trying to make excuses for their buddy - also the rest of his ISO is not very appealling.

[Titus]

@Bear, I asked you to talk about my scumreads. How am I supposed to eliminate scum when people won't talk about my reads?

Second, I don't feel jjh starts the Raya wagon when Bell is DoA.

Third, This isn't Samantha scum by meta. Compare the last two Booneytunes games.

[jjh927]

Is it possible for circumstances unrelated to alignment to affect someone's activity level? Yep
Did I get elimed the first time I played an inactive towngame? You bet I did

Meta can be a hindrance when you're locked into that kind of thinking rather than thinking about the possibility of a first time for something- like someone breaking out of their scumrange. Activity levels will not be a consistent meta tell over someone's future play. Oh, and I like to believe that replacing out really is NAI because people who are more inclined to replace out as scum should not be playing this game.

Ultimately it doesn't matter because Robert looks pretty damn scummy with hindsight, although I'm afraid hindsight is all I can give you since I wasn't around after the gladiate.