Open 812 Guardians of the Fortress - Game Over

[Dunnstral]

Would this game have been harder if scum had scumclaimed and locked themself in the keep day 1, yes or no?

[unwnd]

Absin do you really think I'm just being double-bussed lol

[unwnd]

Would this game have been harder if scum had scumclaimed and locked themself in the keep day 1, yes or no?

I don't see anyone here who would kamikaze as scum

That includes ana

[Something_Smart]

Absin do you really think I'm just being double-bussed lol

Double?

[Dunnstral]

Would this game have been harder if scum had scumclaimed and locked themself in the keep day 1, yes or no?

I don't see anyone here who would kamikaze as scum

That includes ana

I would. I would have locked myself into the keep. It's not like I was particularly townread.

[Dunnstral]

That's also not what I asked, I asked if it would be harder, not if scum would actually do it

[unwnd]

Absin do you really think I'm just being double-bussed lol

Double?

You and catboi both think I'm scum

[Lukewarm]

Luke jumped to the wall right after absinthe jumped to the keep. Catboi was already at the gate.

That is incorrect. Me and Absinthe were both requesting to be the final slot at the keep, then

I

decided that Absinthe could have it, and then locked myself into the wall. Then Absinthe locked herself into keep.

[unwnd]

Would this game have been harder if scum had scumclaimed and locked themself in the keep day 1, yes or no?

I don't see anyone here who would kamikaze as scum

That includes ana

I would. I would have locked myself into the keep. It's not like I was particularly townread.

That's also not what I asked, I asked if it would be harder, not if scum would actually do it

So what, like a feint? Scumclaim just to prove a point?

[Something_Smart]

You and catboi both think I'm scum

Well that's only a single bus

[catboi]

It's just my gut when it comes to the situation. We could be playing a game where something like S_S/Infinity/Dunn could simply be overwhelmed by townies but I don't see the evidence in that world. I think the most likely answer is that scum is fully committed in you 3. Do you disagree?

I've held my tongue a bit when it comes to coordination around who chooses what. I briefly touched upon my own ideals and why I chose my decision, but there a few things that ping me when it comes to everyone's assumptions.

For one, S_S earlier said something along the lines of 'giving reads are bad/help scum' and I never got the chance to understand why he felt that way. I think mechanical talk turns more into an obligation instead of something we can potentially use, so I'm not really getting a good read on the people who are focusing their attention on it (S_S/Lukewarm)

I like your heady analysis in trying to make the setup more approachable for town, but I do have questions myself. Don't you think that giving scum a blueprint of our plans is a bit unwise? I think you agree with that in some regard, just differently. You think giving them information in terms of reads will make it so they can manipulate the mini-games more favorly, and see it as 1's and 0's.

the more unpredictable the townies can be going into D2, the more likely it is that scum will miss a potentially winning swap and execute a losing one instead.

This is where our ideals are parallel but not touching.

Well actually, I guess it depends what you meant. If you meant like saying exactly who we would be voting out in different scenarios, then yeah that's unwise. But if you're just talking about general things like "we want 2 townreads at the Keep" and "we don't want any obvtown at the Gate" I think they're definitely an overall plus.

Yeah I think quoted opinions are very universal, but to get there we would probably have to discuss who is obvtown and who isn't

why was it so important to you to continue to argue with her despite claiming a townread?

well if she's an influential player and likely town, then it matters more that she not be wrong, no?

I get this and tried to be a bit subtle about it earlier. I don't wanna dicuss anything further until a later point in time if that's alright with you

I would even go so far to say I like S_S's input

I'm not paying attention too hard to Infinity on the flipside

Spoiler:

Right now I'm sort of locked into the wall and the more shade you throw at me, the less likely you see any sort of movement

Well let's start with the basics

Would you agree that ana/absin/briar is likely an all town keep group?

My head says no but my heart could possibly say yes

If you think SS is town why don't you want him to join you at the Wall?

Because it probably doesn't happen? Scum can't be in the same minigame and if they are they have to switch them around....

I'm talking about my push to have SS/Infinity join you at the wall, you seem to be opposed to it.

I'm asking you why you would be opposed to SS joining you at the wall if you think he's town?

OK I'm starting to get what you want to do but it falls completely apart knowing that I'm town lol

Like if that's what you want to happen? I'm not entirely opposed to it

Fucked that up somehow

I don't like thinking about making that decision, because I truly want to believe it won't happen. I want to think that if my townread on S_S is correct right now that Infinity (even as scum) wouldn't just take that lying down or accept being in a 3-way of that caliber

I think he has my best interest, or at least is very good at faking he does. GTH I would put him below Briar/S_S who are my main townreads.

If I had to summarize myself up until this point however it'd be something like

1) Impulse voting is bad, Briar following my lead struck me but her posting has been townie
2) Ana trying to build a case on me based on expectation annoyed me, and I got obsessed with trying to explain why it was wrong
3) S_S's more grounded approach to using the setup to our benefit left me with good impressions, and his need to explain why Ana just for lack of a better term yolo'ing it is a bad idea even more so

439 is

really

interesting.

The sequence ending in 811 (sorry for the quotewall) is what set me off in the first place, I didn't think scum would be so awkward around a partner but ultimately I see him struggling to articulate a townread on a player while simultaneously flailing to

not

have that player join the same location as him, and it doesn't really make sense at all to me

[unwnd]

You and catboi both think I'm scum

Well that's only a single bus

You're both scum then even if the setup literally doesn't allow that

I'm just a bit frustrated with the one of you that is town

[Something_Smart]

I'm just a bit frustrated with the one of you that is town

Why? Our reads are the least relevant ones in the whole game, and it should make you look more town if it's guaranteed that scum is pushing you, no?

[absinthe]

Like, reading over this it feels like Infinity actually wants S_S dead versus catboi who is a scumread but like, not a lot of meat there?

Is infinity fairly inexperienced as scum?

Spoiler:

I feel like the amount of direct "you" posts re S_S vs more 3rd person re catboi could mean something.

How's this for a towntell

If I'm scum then we had six options and this seems like the literal worst one. Not only would we have chosen me over Infinity to try to carry the Gate, but we would have picked the IC to be someone who has demolished scum-me before and whose towngame I respect immensely. I don't know who Briar and Ana are but I highly doubt that I would be more scared of them as scum than I would be of ffery.

That demolishment was a long time ago. In our more recent games, I haven't been so much a ball of town fire.

[catboi]

You and catboi both think I'm scum

Well that's only a single bus

You're both scum then even if the setup literally doesn't allow that

I'm just a bit frustrated with the one of you that is town

What are the reasons I should be seeing you as town?

[Something_Smart]

That demolishment was a long time ago. In our more recent games, I haven't been so much a ball of town fire.

you were good in antechamber!

[Dunnstral]

Would this game have been harder if scum had scumclaimed and locked themself in the keep day 1, yes or no?

I don't see anyone here who would kamikaze as scum

That includes ana

I would. I would have locked myself into the keep. It's not like I was particularly townread.

That's also not what I asked, I asked if it would be harder, not if scum would actually do it

So what, like a feint? Scumclaim just to prove a point?

...Do you still not understand?

I'm saying that on day 1, mafia would have a greater chance of winning the game if they put someone in the keep.

It 'sacrifices' somebody, but

in reality, that player was lost anyway

, so they're not losing anything. If they don't do that, they'll have to send someone to the keep, and it's very unlikely that the person they send gets picked or even treated as anything other than mafia.

This is what happened here. They let absinthe take the slot, and then infinity got sent over and they confirmed absinthe as to have the least impact because it doesn't matter who of absinthe or infinty was scum if the keep was resolved first by choosing briar or ana, and then that reveals the alignment of infinity and gives an idea on absinthe.

If they had put infinity in during day 1, the day would have probably ended in a 1-1-1 split, or maybe some variation of 2-0-1/0-2-1. The wifom potential would be there, either way, making it a lot harder to figure things out.

Right now there's 2 people being considered in the Gate, 3 people being considered in the Wall, 1 person being considered in the Keep (as scum)

If somebody had sacrificed themself:

There would be 3 people being considered in the Gate, 3 people being considered in the Wall, 1 person being considered in the Keep

[Something_Smart]

and I mean my opinion of your skill is not going to go down over time unless I've seen you play badly, which I wouldn't really say I have? you were good in Illicit too

pedit: @absinthe

[unwnd]

You and catboi both think I'm scum

Well that's only a single bus

You're both scum then even if the setup literally doesn't allow that

I'm just a bit frustrated with the one of you that is town

What are the reasons I should be seeing you as town?

I'm just a bit frustrated with the one of you that is town

Why? Our reads are the least relevant ones in the whole game, and it should make you look more town if it's guaranteed that scum is pushing you, no?

I don't like reading the game merely reacting to people based on my content, I'd rather come in with some choice words and try to subtly lead somewhere, hoping that my logic wins out. For both of you to think I'm scum it basically becomes 'oh great, I have to appeal to someone who is just trying to get me killed and someone who just misunderstands me' lol

[absinthe]

That demolishment was a long time ago. In our more recent games, I haven't been so much a ball of town fire.

you were good in antechamber!

We nailed the traitor, yes.

my hesitance about scum-Bell, and my not pushing harder for a DS elim, though. Sad.

Do you feel like your scum game is weaker than Infinity's?

[Dunnstral]

^still only 2 at the gate because of the mechanic, but there's more wifom about the swap meaning the swap can be town-town, scum-scum, or town-scum

[Something_Smart]

For both of you to think I'm scum it basically becomes 'oh great, I have to appeal to someone who is just trying to get me killed and someone who just misunderstands me' lol

you don't have to appeal to either of us

you have to appeal to our one confirmed town, and our two sorta-confirmed towns, and the two people who can actually decide your fate

[unwnd]

Not true because I literally have to read both of you, and the act of thinking I'm scum is something I'm going to ignore. I have to determine which of you is coming at me with bad intentions

[Lukewarm]

Almost certain you said the exact opposite of the bolded during Day 1. Will go back to cross reference once I am caught up

I want you to go back to 769 and tell me what you think I was saying

You said that if Birar+Ana were town, and you were scum, then you would have already locked yourself into the Keep. You continued the argument to the conclusion that "I sort of doubt briar + ana as town." Then you went on to say that "logically" there must be a scum in the 3 of [Briar+ana+absinthe]

But that you felt like people were missing some other point you were trying to make.

I then dedicated many posts to trying to understand this so called "misunderstood point." And you stopped responding.

Spoiler:

I am asking what is the incentive to a scum locking themselves into the Keep.

If they lose the Keep minigame if they lock in early AND they lose the minigame if they don't lock in early

Then how are you using the fact that they did not lock in early to draw any conclusions?

I don't think we should discuss optimal scum strategy for them lol

He is claiming, that based on his logic there is most likely 1 scum between you+Briar.
We are considering hanging the Keep's minigame on collectively town reading you+Briar.

If his logic makes sense, then we absolutely should discuss it, because that would mean we need to re-examine our town reads on you+Briar
If his logic is flawed, then we are giving the scum team flawed advice anyways, so it does not matter.

If you + Briar are both in the keep, and both town read, the scum have lost this minigame - unless they can make us doubt the town read on Briar+you.

So imo, either dunn is scum, trying to cast doubt on you+Briar being town, or he is town and has figured out some reason we should not trust the town reads on you+Briar that the rest of the lobby missed.

Either way, I want to hear from him.

If you guys still think I'm throwing doubt at the players already in the keep you don't fundamentally understand what I'm arguing

It's not bravado, this is a continuation of me saying what I'd do if I were scum here, and why I sort of doubt briar + ana as town

That there's scum in those 3? Logically yes, but it feels like nobody understands what I'm getting at, so actually no.

I got only eyes for you, and I am dying for you to enlighten me.

I left a clear possibility that you were town who had figued something out that everyone missed, and that I very much wanted to understand your point, and you just never came back

[unwnd]

Yes the vote isn't particularly on me, but I want to help absin and generally I enjoy being right