Open 812 Guardians of the Fortress - Game Over

[Dunnstral]

I think his point is that two scum in the wall is better than two scum in the gate because it gives us an extra IC

Not following this?

The swap. Because you were both swapped and turned IC.

Thing is, I was playing optimally, with what I was given. Here's what I had wanted to do:

The

Gate

is where we should have/should put the towniest members, for obvious reasons, except for 1 person we are voting at the keep

But briar and Ana immediately voted themselves into the keep

[Lukewarm]

It wasn't about 2 at the gate or 2 at the wall, I saw a lot of people suddenly lock in, my reads aren't 100%, there was a chance in my mind that if I let S_S and Infinity do whatever they wanted, we'd end up in an unfavorable situation. And what S_S wanted was for Infinity to go to the wall.

This is shockingly similar to the reason I almost locked into the Keep immediately after Ana did.... which makes it harder for me to say this is a fake reason.

Not that it matters now, but I believe it would have been better for town to try and put 2 scum at the wall instead of at the gate.

Spoiler:

You stated you believed all 3 of [Briar+Ana+Absinthe} to be town.

Putting 2 scum at the gate let them IC one of those 3, which did not give us much info because they were already being townread.

Putting 2 scum at the wall would have forced the scum team to swap one of them into the wall, so Absinthe would have moved to the wall, and one of {catboi , you, S_S} would have been forced to be IC'ed

Forcing 2 scum into the gate, meant that they got to send the town read over to the gate to be ICed, and therefore not give us much more information.

[Dunnstral]

I don't want to tell the scumteam how to play but it's pretty obvious they're going to send briar into the gate and then ic her

[absinthe]

the scum are forced to swap you into the 2 scum group.

if the 2 scum are at the wall, then you get swapped into the wall but dont become an IC, they must give us an additional IC at the gate.

if the 2 scum are at the gate, then you get swapped into the gate and become an IC.

ah ok. a sort of pseudo IC.

[Dunnstral]

It wasn't about 2 at the gate or 2 at the wall, I saw a lot of people suddenly lock in, my reads aren't 100%, there was a chance in my mind that if I let S_S and Infinity do whatever they wanted, we'd end up in an unfavorable situation. And what S_S wanted was for Infinity to go to the wall.

This is shockingly similar to the reason I almost locked into the Keep immediately after Ana did.... which makes it harder for me to say this is a fake reason.

Not that it matters now, but I believe it would have been better for town to try and put 2 scum at the wall instead of at the gate.

Spoiler:

You stated you believed all 3 of [Briar+Ana+Absinthe} to be town.

Putting 2 scum at the gate let them IC one of those 3, which did not give us much info because they were already being townread.

Putting 2 scum at the wall would have forced the scum team to swap one of them into the wall, so Absinthe would have moved to the wall, and one of {catboi , you, S_S} would have been forced to be IC'ed

Forcing 2 scum into the gate, meant that they got to send the town read over to the gate to be ICed, and therefore not give us much more information.

It's moot because I didn't have the capability of making scum have two people at the wall

[Lukewarm]

I think his point is that two scum in the wall is better than two scum in the gate because it gives us an extra IC

I was not capable of forcing two scum in the wall

But if you thought me+unwnd had exactly 1 scum, adding yourself to the wall made it impossible for there to be 2 scum at the wall.

[Lukewarm]

It wasn't about 2 at the gate or 2 at the wall, I saw a lot of people suddenly lock in, my reads aren't 100%, there was a chance in my mind that if I let S_S and Infinity do whatever they wanted, we'd end up in an unfavorable situation. And what S_S wanted was for Infinity to go to the wall.

This is shockingly similar to the reason I almost locked into the Keep immediately after Ana did.... which makes it harder for me to say this is a fake reason.

Not that it matters now, but I believe it would have been better for town to try and put 2 scum at the wall instead of at the gate.

Spoiler:

You stated you believed all 3 of [Briar+Ana+Absinthe} to be town.

Putting 2 scum at the gate let them IC one of those 3, which did not give us much info because they were already being townread.

Putting 2 scum at the wall would have forced the scum team to swap one of them into the wall, so Absinthe would have moved to the wall, and one of {catboi , you, S_S} would have been forced to be IC'ed

Forcing 2 scum into the gate, meant that they got to send the town read over to the gate to be ICed, and therefore not give us much more information.

It's moot because I didn't have the capability of making scum have two people at the wall

So if you had put yourself at the gate, then there was a 50% chance of there being 2 people at the wall.

Putting yourself at the gate, from your POV, there was now a 0% chance of there being 2 people at the wall.

So you made that arrangement impossible, so I wanted to hear your thoughts about that arrangement

[Lukewarm]

It wasn't about 2 at the gate or 2 at the wall, I saw a lot of people suddenly lock in, my reads aren't 100%, there was a chance in my mind that if I let S_S and Infinity do whatever they wanted, we'd end up in an unfavorable situation. And what S_S wanted was for Infinity to go to the wall.

This is shockingly similar to the reason I almost locked into the Keep immediately after Ana did.... which makes it harder for me to say this is a fake reason.

Not that it matters now, but I believe it would have been better for town to try and put 2 scum at the wall instead of at the gate.

Spoiler:

You stated you believed all 3 of [Briar+Ana+Absinthe} to be town.

Putting 2 scum at the gate let them IC one of those 3, which did not give us much info because they were already being townread.

Putting 2 scum at the wall would have forced the scum team to swap one of them into the wall, so Absinthe would have moved to the wall, and one of {catboi , you, S_S} would have been forced to be IC'ed

Forcing 2 scum into the gate, meant that they got to send the town read over to the gate to be ICed, and therefore not give us much more information.

It's moot because I didn't have the capability of making scum have two people at the wall

So if you had put yourself at the gate, then there was a 50% chance of there being 2

people

scum at the wall.

Putting yourself at the gate, from your POV, there was now a 0% chance of there being 2

people

scum at the wall.

So you made that arrangement impossible, so I wanted to hear your thoughts about that arrangement

[Dunnstral]

It wasn't about 2 at the gate or 2 at the wall, I saw a lot of people suddenly lock in, my reads aren't 100%, there was a chance in my mind that if I let S_S and Infinity do whatever they wanted, we'd end up in an unfavorable situation. And what S_S wanted was for Infinity to go to the wall.

This is shockingly similar to the reason I almost locked into the Keep immediately after Ana did.... which makes it harder for me to say this is a fake reason.

Not that it matters now, but I believe it would have been better for town to try and put 2 scum at the wall instead of at the gate.

Spoiler:

You stated you believed all 3 of [Briar+Ana+Absinthe} to be town.

Putting 2 scum at the gate let them IC one of those 3, which did not give us much info because they were already being townread.

Putting 2 scum at the wall would have forced the scum team to swap one of them into the wall, so Absinthe would have moved to the wall, and one of {catboi , you, S_S} would have been forced to be IC'ed

Forcing 2 scum into the gate, meant that they got to send the town read over to the gate to be ICed, and therefore not give us much more information.

It's moot because I didn't have the capability of making scum have two people at the wall

So if you had put yourself at the gate, then there was a 50% chance of there being 2 people at the wall.

Putting yourself at the gate, from your POV, there was now a 0% chance of there being 2 people at the wall.

So you made that arrangement impossible, so I wanted to hear your thoughts about that arrangement

The answer is that I wasn't thinking about this, though I should have.

In reality, if mafia played it correctly, after I locked in at the gate, either Infinity would have locked into the gate in preparation for the exact play they made anyway (while s_s as town waits for infinity to pick the wall). Or, in a scenario where s_s is also scum, that would be pretty bad for them, but I feel like the scum team is less likely to find themselves in this situation. I think catboi is a bit more likely to be mafia off of how this played out.

[Lukewarm]

The problem I was having is that I can immediately spot why scum!Dunn could have wanted to quick lock into the wall, but could not see why town!Dunn would. It seems overall worse for town to do so imo.

But "people are locking in, and I don't want the scum team to get what they want" is the exact emotion I felt when Ana locked in, so there it is. A valid town thought process to get us here.

Much to think about.

Luckily, I don't have to decide who I want to vote until the very end (and maybe not at all if we win the first 2 games )

[Dunnstral]

Meanwhile I've changed my mind and I think Unwnd is scum in here now

[Anastasia]

I think what Dunn did was suboptimal for town but I kind of believe his thought process in getting there.

[Lukewarm]

Dunn, not to look a gift horse in the mouth or anything, but like, what changed your mind from

This:

Spoiler:

Anyways, last two scum are Lukewarm and catboi

Anyways, last two scum are Lukewarm and catboi

I don't think Luke is scum. To me, the wall comes down to you or unwnd.

All Luke talks about is:

-Keep Mechanics
-My briar/ana read
-my mech talk about scum going into the keep and how that relates to my briar/ana read

I think I can see your worldview but I'm going to be honest

Thinking about mech in less conventional ways usually fucks with my head. I can work with reasoning being applied to mech but the reason I've retracted my read on S_S is that his content is almost all mech and I shouldn't just give it a pass because it sounds interesting

So you need to explain how you're ruling out Luke here

I don't understand how everybody is looking at Luke write paragraphs on mech and thinking that they're either over their head or not a bold player

It seems obvious to me that they have some experience

to this:

Meanwhile I've changed my mind and I think Unwnd is scum in here now

[Dunnstral]

The problem is that Luke is right but they're arguing that it's suboptimal, not that it's scum motivated

Because if I'm scum, and infinity is also scum, and s_s wants infinity at the wall, then there's no problem with that unless you think I got spooked for a different reason, which sn all town at the wall (though from your pov there should be doubt about me being in that position as scum in the first place)

[unwnd]

Please stop talking about the stupid fucking mechanics

[unwnd]

Both of your arguments are just hearsay and me needing to believe what you would do in accordance to how the night played out

Not what you've organically gained from it

[Dunnstral]

Dunn, not to look a gift horse in the mouth or anything, but like, what changed your mind from

This:

Spoiler:

Anyways, last two scum are Lukewarm and catboi

Anyways, last two scum are Lukewarm and catboi

I don't think Luke is scum. To me, the wall comes down to you or unwnd.

All Luke talks about is:

-Keep Mechanics
-My briar/ana read
-my mech talk about scum going into the keep and how that relates to my briar/ana read

I think I can see your worldview but I'm going to be honest

Thinking about mech in less conventional ways usually fucks with my head. I can work with reasoning being applied to mech but the reason I've retracted my read on S_S is that his content is almost all mech and I shouldn't just give it a pass because it sounds interesting

So you need to explain how you're ruling out Luke here

I don't understand how everybody is looking at Luke write paragraphs on mech and thinking that they're either over their head or not a bold player

It seems obvious to me that they have some experience

to this:

Meanwhile I've changed my mind and I think Unwnd is scum in here now

1237 and 1240 aren't shading you, first of all. 1237 is in fact more about unwnd's thoughts, 1240 is unwnd plus whoever else said something similar, I think catboi

I understand where you're coming from more, while this feels more like scum Unwnd because it doesn't feel like he is trying to work with me, and I do think scum him would not go for you when I was and would instead continue to go for me where he believes there is more support. And when asked about his read on you in context to his read on s_s for mech talk, his answer wasn't very good

[Dunnstral]

Both of your arguments are just hearsay and me needing to believe what you would do in accordance to how the night played out

Not what you've organically gained from it

What do you need to believe from Luke in order to read him?

[unwnd]

I just want to state that my initial TR of S_S is exclusive to what I think of him as a person. I townread his efforts thinking he was tinkering in his head to try and make a favorable outcome for town. I changed my mind on this however because I'm just going to assume the same thing I always do about mechanics: They're really fucking easy to talk about and require zero commitment. Dunn, you yourself admitted this and made the basis of your argument against Lukewarm based on (Mechanics). Okay? So why are you two going rounds about postulating theories and how the mechanics should work in your town!favor instead of the opposite. I'm not going to pay attention to it much further and I hope to god that is not what becomes the majority of conversation you will absolutely lose me if it is.

Let me state that I don't think all mechanic talk is bad. It's protown to consider how to use the setup to your advantage and line up potential good moves in accordance to it. However? I think that's passed.

[Lukewarm]

Please stop talking about the stupid fucking mechanics

I was not trying to talk mechanics... I was trying to talk about his motivation for locking into the wall. To see if I thought the decision was town motivated or scum motivated. Isn't that how you are supposed to play this game?

Before I talked to him, I could only come up with a scum motivation (which was based on mechanics), but once I talked to him, I decided that I can see a potential town motivation.

I have not decided on either of you yet, but I do feel like that was a productive conversation for us to have.

[Dunnstral]

I just want to state that my initial TR of S_S is exclusive to what I think of him as a person. I townread his efforts thinking he was tinkering in his head to try and make a favorable outcome for town. I changed my mind on this however because I'm just going to assume the same thing I always do about mechanics: They're really fucking easy to talk about and require zero commitment. Dunn, you yourself admitted this and made the basis of your argument against Lukewarm based on (Mechanics). Okay? So why are you two going rounds about postulating theories and how the mechanics should work in your town!favor instead of the opposite. I'm not going to pay attention to it much further and I hope to god that is not what becomes the majority of conversation you will absolutely lose me if it is.

Let me state that I don't think all mechanic talk is bad. It's protown to consider how to use the setup to your advantage and line up potential good moves in accordance to it. However? I think that's passed.

So you think all of me, s_s, and infinity are scum, and we were the last 3 in a location, and that I got ahead of myself and hammered wall for no reason?

[unwnd]

I think what makes this situation worse is that I know you (Dunn) would absolutely have a plan set up in your head to wriggle your way out of a lim. I mean, I was your partner in that one game where you made town believe you were a friendly neighbor or something. You would absolutely manipulate the way you are right now, but I'll give you slight credit in that I agree with ana. You probably do believe how you feel about what happened and what you did. That hwoever doesn't make it so you can't believe those feelings as scum.

[unwnd]

Please stop talking about the stupid fucking mechanics

I was not trying to talk mechanics... I was trying to talk about his motivation for locking into the wall. To see if I thought the decision was town motivated or scum motivated. Isn't that how you are supposed to play this game?

Before I talked to him, I could only come up with a scum motivation (which was based on mechanics), but once I talked to him, I decided that I can see a potential town motivation.

I have not decided on either of you yet, but I do feel like that was a productive conversation for us to have.

I personally got nothing out of it knowing

1) How dunn is
2) The previous points I just made

[Lukewarm]

The problem is that Luke is right but they're arguing that it's suboptimal, not that it's scum motivated

Because if I'm scum, and infinity is also scum, and s_s wants infinity at the wall, then there's no problem with that unless you think I got spooked for a different reason, which sn all town at the wall (though from your pov there should be doubt about me being in that position as scum in the first place)

There was another reason I thought Scum!dunn might have done it, but there is not point in going over it (might make unwnd angry ) and the thought will actually resolve itself after the other minigames are revealed anyways.

[unwnd]

Let's start somewhere else

The whole game pretty much agrees that Infinity is caught scum. That's very much a given. I would like to state if you're not paying attention that both the two people who have a confirmed scum in them think I'm evil. Who's bussing me?