Mini Normal 2211 || Summer Meet [Endgame]

[humaneatingmonkey]

No, Egix. No, everybody who might be reading this and thinks this way. I don't think Lemons is scum specifically because I think he's taking an easier way out of the game state.

I think Lemons is scum because — The line of thinking Lemons demonstrates is not consistent with the choices Lemons make. See #492. I'll quote it.

Lemons hate T3 for the sins he had in a past game that gerain is doing even worse. if Lemons is the type to pressure someone for low info, and gerain is a scumread of his, how come i'm his preference? there's nothing consistent about that at all.

Evidence:
1. T3's ISO, which has been very engaged in the game, compared to gerain's ISO, which has been self-absorbed and completely disconnected from the game.
2. Lemons' scumlist, which includes gerain and me, but who didn't vote gerain. (despite the pressure that gerain has from people like Ivyeo, Andante, and Dunnstral — making him a very viable wagon).

Lemons has never interacted with gerain or did something about his suspicion that gerain is scum other than say that he's playing mafia terribly. playing mafia terribly is not a scumtell.

Evidence:
1. Lemons' ISO, whose only mention of gerain is a comment on how terrible he plays.

In fact, Lemons gave me "townpoints" and he had choof as "looking more town". Although he gave my other posts "scumpoints" check what his reasons are for me being scum. There's nothing consistent about this dude.

Evidence
1. Lemons' choofslot progression: #140 → #244 → #342 → #347 (after Umaluts' #346) → and now #395 → #406. This is not natural progression.

[humaneatingmonkey]

You vs osuka just feels like a slapfight over something I don't understand. Apologies if there's something big I'm missing but yeah.

This is very premature, and I wonder if this is because I'm annoyed. However, I have the impression that osuka seems to be intentionally being obtuse as I argue that Lemons could be scum. If it was town!osuka, it would be explained that he has Lemons as "conftown". But it's super early in the game, and Lemons being scum is still a possibility. This is highly irregular for me. There's also that "slip" where he said gerains is a mislynch. Although, I'm not the kind of guy that puts much value to that on its own. It just doesn't seem to have a town perspective when I was having that back-to-back with him.

[InsidiousLemons]

thanks all for the audition wishes. it went very very well so keep your fingers crossed for me lol

@everyone don't worry about misgendering me, my stated pronouns are he/they so i'm fine with either. honestly any pronoun works for me because gender is a fuck, so feel free to use she/her if it strikes your fancy. i really really wish this site let you select multiple pronouns but for some reason that has never been implemented.

looking back at this game with fresh eyes, i actually do agree with the monkey's criticism that i'm going too easy on gerain. i stand by 406, but i do wonder why osuka is defending me so hard. not convinced that that means anything about his alignment, but he had me in his pocket last game and i'm not about to let it happen again. i think i overfocused T3 because of last game and ignored the fact that, in a micro where 2 miselims already puts us in LyLo, gerain is asking for a free pass to D2. i think monkey is right to be suspicious of me for not calling that out more harshly.

gonna finish catching up now

[InsidiousLemons]

My guys, I will misgender frequently. This is not personal. I am not American, and my native language is genderless.

this is still not appropriate response tho lol. keep apologizing when you get someone's pronouns wrong and keep working on trying to stop doing it. giving up is not a viable option

[humaneatingmonkey]

Don't worry Lemons, I'm not giving up. But I will be doing it frequently, not be choice.

[InsidiousLemons]

2. Lemons' scumlist, which includes gerain and me, but who didn't vote gerain. (despite the pressure that gerain has from people like Ivyeo, Andante, and Dunnstral — making him a very viable wagon).

in a universe where lemons is scum, why on earth would he shift from pushing gerain to you, if gerain is looking like an easier mislynch? what the fuck?

yeah this is a good callout. hme's criticism of my supposed inconsistency is, in itself, not consistent. i should've been pushing gerain harder, but not for the reasons you're saying i should have been.

p-edit: i just think saying "i will be doing it" rather than "i will continue to try" does more harm than good. appreciate the effort

[humaneatingmonkey]

to be clear, i will be using your pronouns.

[humaneatingmonkey]

hme's criticism of my supposed inconsistency is, in itself, not consistent.

can you explain this?

[InsidiousLemons]

why is ti strange to not want to appear scummy? i don't want to get voted off, so i want to look townie/not look scummy

right now, i have nothing to offer the game except my claim. i find it incredibly hard/impossible to find scum day 1. i do try and get better as the game goes on though...

im now thinking you're town, gerain

you have got to be fucking kidding me

[humaneatingmonkey]

you have got to be fucking kidding me

no. do you think it's scummy?

[InsidiousLemons]

gerain, a scumread that you have, is doing a worse job than T3.

on the other hand, geraintm looks scummy as hell. nothing about this dude makes me think "he's playing to win as town", and everything about this dude makes me think "he's playing to win as scum."

Lemons has never interacted with gerain or did something about his suspicion that gerain is scum other than say that he's playing mafia terribly. playing mafia terribly is not a scumtell.

^ me not voting gerain is bad because his play lines up with what i associate with scum. i disagree because i think my vote is best on you atp, but i do agree that pushing harder would have been smart.

2. Lemons' scumlist, which includes gerain and me, but who didn't vote gerain. (despite the pressure that gerain has from people like Ivyeo, Andante, and Dunnstral — making him a very viable wagon).

^ now me not voting gerain is bad because he's a viable wagon. i disagree that a wagon being active is a good reason to put another vote onto it, all other things being equal. this is inconsistency

p-edit yes? in what world is self-preservation and deliberate inactivity town behaviour? these are literally the reasons you've been telling me to push gerain all game, and now suddenly he's town for doubling down?

[InsidiousLemons]

oh, day 1 i won't ask for clarification. i think anyone who claims a read strength greater than say.....33% is suffering delusions of overconfidence. why get people into trouble and ask them to clarify trying to catch mist on day 1?

"why get people into trouble" lmaoooooo

[InsidiousLemons]

I have the benefit of knowing that I'm town,

[humaneatingmonkey]

now me not voting gerain is bad because he's a viable wagon. i disagree that a wagon being active is a good reason to put another vote onto it, all other things being equal. this is inconsistency

gerain being a viable wagon is evidence that you would have had good information on your scum suspect by pressing more on that slot. so, your vote there would have been a good option for you NOT MY SLOT who you have previously given "towncred" for. it's not inconsistent. it's the same assertion.

p-edit yes? in what world is self-preservation and deliberate inactivity town behaviour? these are literally the reasons you've been telling me to push gerain all game, and now suddenly he's town for doubling down?

the things that I find scummy aren't the same things that you said you found scummy. so I only hold you accountable for what you think is scummy.

he's town to me because I think he's demonstrated enough consistency and has reacted genuinely to the pressure on him. still disagree? go push him and show me he's scummy.

[InsidiousLemons]

533 feels okay.

540 isn't a great post but 542 as a justification has town vibes. the only real scum reason i can think of for 540 is coaching, but that's just my pre-daytalk-era brain talking. egix is still hard to read but maybe town

@humaneatingmonkey what did you find scummy in gerain's posts before? what do you find has changed?

[InsidiousLemons]

the rest of pg. 22 from egix also leans town for me. done catching up now

[humaneatingmonkey]

on the other hand, geraintm looks scummy as hell. nothing about this dude makes me think "he's playing to win as town", and everything about this dude makes me think "he's playing to win as scum."

here.

i now think that it could be valid that he's town and this is how he plays, and his reactions feel like it's genuine. i would have expected that he would overcorrect, become defensive, and try a different tactic. this could still be true, but only time will tell.

[humaneatingmonkey]

but i do wonder why osuka is defending me so hard. not convinced that that means anything about his alignment, but he had me in his pocket last game and i'm not about to let it happen again.

does this mean we agree here:

You vs osuka just feels like a slapfight over something I don't understand. Apologies if there's something big I'm missing but yeah.

This is very premature, and I wonder if this is because I'm annoyed. However, I have the impression that osuka seems to be intentionally being obtuse as I argue that Lemons could be scum. If it was town!osuka, it would be explained that he has Lemons as "conftown". But it's super early in the game, and Lemons being scum is still a possibility. This is highly irregular for me. There's also that "slip" where he said gerains is a mislynch. Although, I'm not the kind of guy that puts much value to that on its own. It just doesn't seem to have a town perspective when I was having that back-to-back with him.

[InsidiousLemons]

i don't know if i buy that that's your real thought process. an indifferent regurgitation of his past assertions that barely playing this game is "just how he plays" is in line with the idea that he's just trying to coast to D2. i don't see a reason for town!hme to let up on the pressure here.

p-edit: yes and no. i don't think using the word "mislynch" was a slip, just walking down a particular path of possibilities. it's in line with the rest of his argument. i can understand you thinking that calling me conftown was an overstatement, and i'm inclined to agree that it's a little suspect so early in the game. the most important thing is internal consistency, and his posts don't indicate a significant shift in perspective regarding me. overall osuka doesn't strike me as particularly scummy, it just stood out to me that he would spend like a page and a half arguing with you and positioning his defense of me so prominently within that argument.

[Umlaut]

the dude's not in the business of finding out who scum is, and all about trying to not look like scum. also, I don't think he's ever done something about his vote on me? has he verbalized his reason on voting for me? nah dude, this guy's parking.

i will repeat, day 1 i am very, very bad at finding scum.
last time i looked though, there were 4 votes on you, so why aren't the 3 other people voting for you getting asmuch heat as i am?

Eww.

VOTE: geraintm
Why me fry me

[humaneatingmonkey]

i'll be very honest, Lemons. I don't think I can get much out of a 1 on 1 with you. My reason for wanting you lynched is inconsistency but your sudden self-aware comeback was enough to soften me up. I've already caught you being inconsistent once, so I don't think by tunneling you, I can put you in a position where I can be confident you're scum or confident that you're town.

[humaneatingmonkey]

What's the meta on osuka? Does he have a reputation for being obtuse and overhostile?

[humaneatingmonkey]

it's in line with the rest of his argument. i can understand you thinking that calling me conftown was an overstatement, and i'm inclined to agree that it's a little suspect so early in the game.

why is it only a small deal for you that someone seems to be more confident than he usually has to be? isn't that a scumtell?

[humaneatingmonkey]

Eww.

Is this a policy lynch? Or you think this was a scummy reaction?

[InsidiousLemons]

it's in line with the rest of his argument. i can understand you thinking that calling me conftown was an overstatement, and i'm inclined to agree that it's a little suspect so early in the game.

why is it only a small deal for you that someone seems to be more confident than he usually has to be? isn't that a scumtell?

i've only played one game with osuka, and he was scum, so there isn't much to go off of. his meta, on the whole, is very difficult to separate into scumtells and towntells. if anyone has more experience with him i'd be willing to listen.