Mini Normal 2209: Musicals II [Endgame]

[T3]

bloodhail can you not.
This only implicates you more.

[bloodhail]

bloodhail can you not.
This only implicates you more.

dude lmao i dont care if i get voted here, im town, the game on regardless

[bloodhail]

how much are you willing to bet on it, fucko

Quite a bit.

469 echoes my thoughts, I don't have much to add. Lemons doesn't discuss themself in the post, but I think the way they pushed against N_M also puts them in the "not credible as scum" camp. Meanwhile you were straight into today with a narrative about the boxxy kill (apparently having already researched my previous games) and your posts since day start read like you're trying to bluster your way out of a bad situation.

k, same thing i said to lemons: i die, you willing to go next?

[bloodhail]

i looked into you afterwards because the kill is, as a fact, close to a gamethrow for scum, and hopefully they are punsihed for making it. i needed to see if you were competent or not. but your content this game fucking sucks, your case against boxxy was awful, you've only contributed a lazy sheep against me today with halfassed justification

so, i flip town, will you selfvote tomorrow?

[UNOwen]

so, i flip town, will you selfvote tomorrow?

Nope.

[ItalianoVD]

i looked into you afterwards because the kill is, as a fact, close to a gamethrow for scum, and hopefully they are punsihed for making it. i needed to see if you were competent or not. but your content this game fucking sucks, your case against boxxy was awful, you've only contributed a lazy sheep against me today with halfassed justification

so, i flip town, will you selfvote tomorrow?

Need more time?

[ItalianoVD]

your defenses of him just didn't really make sense to me with the rest of your play. i got hyperfocused on 158 because it was incredibly strange to me that you would claim there was no useful content to post when we had long since left RVS.

I know I didn’t elaborate at the time, but when I said he would post useful content when there was useful content to post I was talking about Not_Mafia himself. He posts useful content when

he

feels it’s useful content to post and it’s usually non-existent on day 1, at least not to everyone’s liking.

it's subjective, but i didn't feel your defenses to my pushes on you were particularly strong, and i got pretty heavily confbiased by that observation.

I thought your push was shallow which is why I didn’t really give it much thought. I said what I said and moved on. You thought you had found scum and sure while town does make those types of pushesbut they way you were responding afterwards made me very suspicious.

it's actually kind of astonishing luck that you happened to roll FN, because i would have wasted a considerable portion of the day continuing to tunnel you and maybe would have even gotten myself eliminated in the process.

Even still, had I not fn’d you I don’t see how you could think I’d blatantly defend my partner like that. Even after RQS and seeing I’m not a noob. Even boxxy called you out on it. This makes me think that things aren’t as they seem.

as for keeping your alignment to myself, i briefly considered it for the purposes of keeping a mod-confirmed innocent from eating the NK for as long as possible. with the benefit of hindsight, outing that information was clearly the right decision because we're within striking distance of the end of the game now.

Hmm, okay. I would have still gone hard after the player but found a way to crumb to them that I got the message, so that player would know that I’m reaction testing scum, but I guess that’s just my complex mind.

[Anya]

tempted to vote bloodhail for the over the top bravado

[bloodhail]

i looked into you afterwards because the kill is, as a fact, close to a gamethrow for scum, and hopefully they are punsihed for making it. i needed to see if you were competent or not. but your content this game fucking sucks, your case against boxxy was awful, you've only contributed a lazy sheep against me today with halfassed justification

so, i flip town, will you selfvote tomorrow?

Need more time?

a lil bit

[bloodhail]

if i had to guess yea, i'd say last mafia is one of the two rat cowards who want to shove me into a grave but won't bet their life on it - both trying to discredit the argument i wouldn't make the kill with reasoning that betrays that they

would

make that stupid a kill - "maybe boxxy was lyin about being VT" isnt the thought that crosses a townies mind but it might be the thought of the stupid scumbag that did it

not_mafia: voting someone for voting you for not posting almost at all is not ignorance or inexperience. get posting cow man you have 3 of them

it really is quite disappointing to play against someone who is so determined to do nothing but troll. do you genuinely believe you are playing to your wincon?

so, these read like they could be frustration with an inactive partner

- don't like his advocacy of a n_m policy lim in 154

[snip]

i think at this point my vote will do more work trying to force not_mafia back into the thread than it will continuing a stale push on italiano.

VOTE: Not_Mafiai hated this quote from lemons here day 1 and it doesnt look better now - attacking me for suggesting not_mafia as a policy vote while simultaneously voting not_mafia. blatantly contradictory and considering their later posts pretty bad

@dannflor can we get a Not_Mafia prod?

i'm a bit miffed about the degree to which we're having to play around N_M's trolling here. i guess i didn't quite realize that having him in the game means minus one player and plus one vote on any and all potential lims

again, could this be annoyance at having a partner doing nothing? theres a hint of that

rereading makes me wonder if our pair could actually be Italiano and N_M. Italiano handled my suspicion of him strangely (see Owen's 113), and 158/159 are weirdly defensive of Not_Mafia after 3 nothing posts:

hes not gonna post anything useful

He does post useful content when there is useful content to post.

was there no useful content to post by page 7? your own post history certainly suggests otherwise.

then despite these assurances, in 189 he's fine giving N_M a free D2 pass even in light of a continued total lack of content from him.

if not_mafia is one of our (most likely) 2 scum, that could explain why everyone else looks so darn... town. it's hard to pick out 1 scum out of 8 active players, but italiano's nervousness around running up not_mafia makes me think he could be our magical 1/8. i think the best way to determine this without sacrificing anyone who's actually contributing would be to flip not_mafia and go from there. i know i said i wouldn't support a policy lim but 7 total posts D1 is abhorrent and the increased potential to gain information makes me think this could be the way to go.

thoughts?

but italiano's nervousness around running up not_mafia makes me think he could be our magical 1/8.

Nervousness?! Come on bruh the framing of that is so wrong it’s ridiculous.

way to attack the wording instead of the argument. call it what you want -- hesitancy, reluctance. what i'm saying still holds -- you were curiously cautious of a Not_Mafia elim from the very outset, to the point where you were willing to call boxxy a "true mafia" (163) for suggesting that a policy lim might be preferable early rather than in LyLo. to be clear, i was never a fan of that plan either, but your chainsaw is revving a little louder with every defense of not_mafia you make.

here lemons is trying to draw preflip associatives between italiano and n_m - typical scum tactic, tie someone to your partner so you have a miselim target in case your partner goes down

i'm unsure about CDB but not_mafia has made it clear he isn't interested in contributing to solving the game. he's dead weight at best.

i can compromise on cdb. with not_mafia lolhammer potential he's now essentially at E-1

@cdb claim? consider this intent to soft-hammer

also this is weaselly especially given the shit they're trying to give me today

i do still prefer n_m but it doesn't look like it's going to happen. if you guys want we can leave it until the morning but cdb has all the momentum and it looks like we won't get any help from t3 on a n_m exec for some reason

again, not great




is this a rock solid slam dunk open and shut case? nah, i cant say with 100% confidence. but i think lemons should always be one of the people you kill in he POE

[bloodhail]

i screwed up the quote tags sorry

[bloodhail]

I don't think policy executions are something that should be considered until the day is ready to end. N_M trolling is exactly what he did in my last game. Over the course of day 1 he eventually contributed enough relevant content to get a read, but I don't expect it to be possible to pressure him into doing so early.

Anya was also in that game so she should know this. Despite that her vote is currently sitting on the player least likely to provide meaningful content in response even though she claimed to want to provoke discussion, which is a major red flag.

VOTE: boxxy

Town can be erratic but the ISO doesn't look like a natural progression to me. Italiano/Anya are suspected initially, then vote against N_M and there's no follow up on the initial suspicions. Italiano renews his vote against boxxy, which is laughed off. T3's posts are dismissed even though there is suspicion against boxxy from him. No attempt to engage with either of these players about their votes despite one being a suspect and the other being one of the low content players boxxy has complained about. Instead of actually discussing suspicions the majority of boxxy's posts are wrapped up in the playstyle debate and the continued N_M vote is eventually justified by 167 which is fine in isolation but "lack of anything else to go on" doesn't match his previous opinions.

I don't see how he can end up on "Lemons might be scum white knighting" before first sorting his own voters.

boxxy's VT claim makes me uneasy but I don't like his case against me and don't feel particularly good about voting anywhere else. I suppose I'm not against a compromise on N_M, though that would just be a combination of PoE and policy.

re Anya: I've skimmed the ISO from the game that Italiano linked and while he's correct the vibe is different, that game was much faster so the comparison isn't sound at all. (Anya's 0-33 posts took place over a ~2 day period for both games linked, here it has taken ~7 days to reach post 28). If I ignore that my experience with Anya was from a more active game, nothing's really pinged me here except me interpreting her initial vote as more serious than she claimed it was. And considering her posts in the game linked the idea that scum!Anya would be pretending to have a semi-serious read in the early game is not realistic, so I think I was just wrong about that regardless of her alignment.

meanwhile unowen largely ignores n_m's existence and attacks boxxy for voting him, its pretty lousy and also how i could see a n_m partner playing - like those arre the only approaches, ignore/deflect attention from him or get annoyed at him

so yea im fine with one of those two

[bloodhail]

friendly neighbor is a weak PR so theres almost certainly 1 other pr in the setup, and thats likely it

dont ever vote cdb, dont ever vote anya, dont let italiano lead the game after today lmao

[bloodhail]

boxxy was pointing the finger at CDB on a n_m flip but i still dont think he makes that kill? i would think he has more sense. level 0, prob points way more to unowen but you can elim both of them and probably win the game



k i'm done here

[ItalianoVD]

Real quick I’m trying to get it through my head. Why was “vanilla town boxxy” a bad kill for scum? Explain like I’m 5 please?

[ItalianoVD]

i'm running out of explanations for a universe where bloodhail

isn't

the final scum here.

having said this, we have heard suspiciously little out of UNOwen -- as in literally one four-word post -- considering his relative activity yesterday. obviously everyone has a life outside of the game, but i'm very surprised that he hasn't had anything more to say on what's happened since the end of D1. i still think bloodhail is more probable, but his silence could be an indication that we're on the wrong track and he's just sort of folding his arms and watching us fight amongst ourselves.

This is an interesting take. Owen what’s your response?

[bloodhail]

Real quick I’m trying to get it through my head. Why was “vanilla town boxxy” a bad kill for scum? Explain like I’m 5 please?

sigh

even if you assume boxxy would be treated like an IC (not remotely a given thing)

in a 9 player setup with 2 scum there are going to be hidden power roles. if an investigative role exists, they have the potential to win the game mechanically, either by getting a guilty or generating enough clears to have a mechanical POE. to instead shoot a claimed VT is risking autoloss, and unlike what the weasels scumcasing me are trying to argue there was no reason to believe boxxy would ever claim VT as PR

in the large normal as scum i plotted out everyone night 1 and determined who was the best kill based on their reads + likely PR status, there was a guy who posted 800 times and was obvious town to me but i didnt kill him because he had effectively outed himself as VT by selfvoting. he ended up being the game losing misyeet for town because a couple people tunneled him. in a similar sense thats why i never kill boxxy here.


anyway, you dont gotta believe me here, it doesnt matter. idgaf if i die here and it probably doesnt hurt town win condition that much

you have cdb/t3/anya likely town, and yr poe is lemons/unowen. if one of them is the other power role then swap in anya i guess? (even that feels like a reach but on reflection feel slightly less confident in that read than the other two). there's very unlikely more than 2 PRs though unless theyre very weak

[InsidiousLemons]

your defenses of him just didn't really make sense to me with the rest of your play. i got hyperfocused on 158 because it was incredibly strange to me that you would claim there was no useful content to post when we had long since left RVS.

I know I didn’t elaborate at the time, but when I said he would post useful content when there was useful content to post I was talking about Not_Mafia himself. He posts useful content when

he

feels it’s useful content to post and it’s usually non-existent on day 1, at least not to everyone’s liking.

well, okay, sure, but i didn't know that was what you meant at the time, and as you say, you never bothered to elaborate even when i called you out -- you flat-out ignored the question in 333 in favour of a quibble about the use of the word "nervousness". you can see how the words you said would be suspect to me, no?

it's actually kind of astonishing luck that you happened to roll FN, because i would have wasted a considerable portion of the day continuing to tunnel you and maybe would have even gotten myself eliminated in the process.

Even still, had I not fn’d you I don’t see how you could think I’d blatantly defend my partner like that. Even after RQS and seeing I’m not a noob. Even boxxy called you out on it. This makes me think that things aren’t as they seem.

boxxy and bloodhail both suggested in quick succession that not_mafia would need to be policy'd sooner or later (152, 154). think about it this way: if you're not_mafia's partner, and two people have just mentioned offing him early on D1 with very little prompting,

this is probably the best chance you're going to get

to push against that and

not

have it look suspicious. you obviously want to at least

try

to prevent your partner from getting limmed, so shooting it down now before the idea starts to gain traction is a good way to make it look like you're just pushing against opportunism rather than defending your partner. maybe i'm just being dense, but i didn't think it was too blatant to have come from scum. you can tell me you don't think i'd believe that of your later posts like 356, but if we're going by boxxy's judgement, you can see that he agreed those very same posts were worthy of scrutiny in 383.

as for keeping your alignment to myself, i briefly considered it for the purposes of keeping a mod-confirmed innocent from eating the NK for as long as possible. with the benefit of hindsight, outing that information was clearly the right decision because we're within striking distance of the end of the game now.

Hmm, okay. I would have still gone hard after the player but found a way to crumb to them that I got the message, so that player would know that I’m reaction testing scum, but I guess that’s just my complex mind.

yeah i just didn't really think this deeply about it, and there's also no guarantee you would have believed the crumb depending on what i was able to come up with. i stand by the assertion that the simpler and better play was to just not try to hide it at all

[InsidiousLemons]

not_mafia: voting someone for voting you for not posting almost at all is not ignorance or inexperience. get posting cow man you have 3 of them

it really is quite disappointing to play against someone who is so determined to do nothing but troll. do you genuinely believe you are playing to your wincon?

so, these read like they could be frustration with an inactive partner

[...]

@dannflor can we get a Not_Mafia prod?

i'm a bit miffed about the degree to which we're having to play around N_M's trolling here. i guess i didn't quite realize that having him in the game means minus one player and plus one vote on any and all potential lims

again, could this be annoyance at having a partner doing nothing? theres a hint of that

meanwhile unowen largely ignores n_m's existence and attacks boxxy for voting him, its pretty lousy and also how i could see a n_m partner playing

why do you count prompting an inactive player to post as a partner tell for me, but ignoring that same inactive player as a partner tell for unowen? isn't this kind of a double standard?

and what do you think of this post? is this just unowen bussing to save his skin? if that's the case, why doesn't he unvote boxxy?

My best guess for a team right now is boxxy/CDB, but with CDB the confidence is low enough that I'd prefer executing N_M as the least readable slot and then attempting to solve with more solid information.

[Anya]

VOTE: unwen

the bird's talk of voting NotMafia might be a little too on the nose actually

[Dannflor]

VC 2.02

Wait For It

votes

[3] Not Voting

:

InsidiousLemons, ChannelDelibird, ItalianoVD

[2] bloodhail

:

T3, UNOwen

[1] InsidiousLemons

:

bloodhail

[1] UNOwen

:

Anya

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to eliminate

The Day 2 deadline is in

: (expired on 2021-06-06 03:04:10)

Mod Notes

:

[T3]

Town: Anya, Lemons, Italiano
Lean town: Channel
poe: everyone else not me
VOTE: unowen

[UNOwen]

This is an interesting take. Owen what’s your response?

I think that's a fair thought. There's less to post now we have a scum flip which I think gets us most of the way to victory.

My read is that the way the N_M wagon came about and was pushed makes it most likely all town and you are confirmed town, which leaves bloodhail. What I've seen today has just validated that impression. bloodhail reading our previous game, reporting "an attempt to pr hunt" and pushing this theory that I would kill a VT because I'm new was a clear giveaway to me that he has an agenda, since correctly identifying the PR was what the victory depended on in that game. More recently this reaction test he's talking about is transparently fake logic, the question is just nonsense. He seemed to be fairly considered day 1 but now his play has devolved into "will you self-vote if I flip town? No! How suspicious!". This is such basic thinking it's unbelievable that he actually thinks there's anything useful to get from asking that question. In general the step up in aggro is coming across as a last roll of the dice to try and escape a losing situation.

It seems pointless to waste energy indulging in paranoia theories when bloodhail-scum is a comfortable solve for the game, and unless someone scum claims I won't be changing my vote anyway.

[Anya]

i think it's the tree or bloodhail

possible that bloodhail recognised he looked really bad from being off wagon so needed to make a chilli flavoured kill

[Anya]

VOTE: bloodhail