Mini Normal 2209: Musicals II [Endgame]

[boxxy]

At last.

To start with Not_Mafia is clearly lying so...
VOTE: Not_Mafia

Do we know how many mafia there are in this game?

[boxxy]

Usually 2 mafia when 9 players.

Thanks.

it's interesting to me that it's specified that at least one person has received a VT PM because per the normal guidelines, there HAS to be at least one VT. wacky role interplay?

I don't follow.

Hi all! My username is usually abbreviated to CDB. I'm an old fogey from back in the day and this is my first game for a few years, so I'm definitely going to be rusty and probably quite bad. Apologies in advance!

Do we know how many mafia there are in this game?

Why did you ask this question, boxxy?

VOTE: bloodhail

Cause I didn't know how many mafia there are.

Tell me about yourselves! I’ve only played with Not_Mafia once and with UNOwen in my second game on site which was like May of last year.

1. What’s your mafia experience?
2. Do you like playing as town better? Or mafia better?
3. Is it hard for you to lie? Or can you do it with no problem? Both in real life and in mafia?

I think you should provide your own answers first.

[boxxy]

CDB why the bloodhail vote?

[boxxy]

according to the rules of the normal queue, every game must contain at least one vanilla townie. most games contain more than one. it's just weird to me that it's specified in the first post when it's obvious that there is a VT in play -- it suggests to me that the setup may be unusually PR-heavy, or have something like a group of masons or neighbours.

EBWOP -- fixed formatting

Is it common to share an example role PM in the pre-game? If so, then you'd expect the probability of seeing the VT as the example role PM to be higher in games that are VT heavy.

I would argue you are reading too much into it, and are possibly fishing for roles.

VOTE: InsidiousLemons

[boxxy]

why would i not be interacting as scum

this makes no sense

Scum want to stay under the radar. It's why sheeping is a scum play.

[boxxy]

Anyone who doesn’t answer now is anti-town.

And yet you still haven't answered your own questions despite me asking you too. Curious.

[boxxy]

RQS is anti-town nobody answer

Honestly I'm pretty out of date on the meta. I'd love for you to expand why you think RQS is anti-town, and for ItalianoVD to expand on why he thinks its pro-town.

[boxxy]

I see it now, sorry.

Maybe leave the quotes as just quotes then though next time? The pro-town play is to make sure your posts are easy to read.

1. Been playing in person for years, played on this site a few times many years ago.
2. Town
3. Yes, no, both.

[boxxy]

Sorry I don't have much time to post on weekends, getting caught up.

UNVOTE:

for now

I know my alignment, I don’t know yours, so if we have the same alignment (meaning both town) then both our time here will be better. If we were scum partners, like you said, what would’ve the point of saying that? It’s a stupid thing to try to fake and sort of no way anyone would actually believe it. But I’ll be able to tell before the day is out if you are town or not as I assume you will for me. And if we aren’t the same alignment meaning you are scum or I am I’m sure that will show as well.

But I’m gonna stop now before it starts getting deeper into self meta and wifom. I just wanna let you know it’s not what you think or hope it is.

At risk of buddying lemon, this reads scum to me. I agree that "if we're the same alignment" is performantive. This is a classic case of the "that's not why I'm scum." Scum tend to defend vigorously like this when they get caught for what they believe "the wrong reasons."

A reasonable townsperson could comprehend lemon's argument and agree that it looks scummy. Legit town don't feel the need to justify their actions as much.

So far Lemons is my strongest town read as I feel like they are making the most effort to get content out of people.

66 is some decent effort.

UNVOTE: InsidiousLemons
VOTE: Anya
Lemons makes a good point about Anya's change of tack. 29 doesn't look like it was intended as a troll vote.

@T3 - Can you describe the difference in play you're feeling?

how dare you insinuate i would troll i don't condone that behaviour at all and imo trolls deserve to be banned on sight

it was a random vote to produce literature in this barren excuse of a library

As barren as this is, there is at least some content to comment on, and you are always welcome to add your own content.

Anya moves up in my scum list, although there is little content from her to really base this on. She is posting small snippets and complaining about lack of content. Feels a bit like scum trying to sleep without appearing inactive.

[boxxy]

Honestly reading Anya and Italiano's posts together I could see them as a scum team.

No intereaction at first between them, always smart to stay distant from your partner.

Then here:

Anyone who doesn’t answer now is anti-town.

And yet you still haven't answered your own questions despite me asking you too. Curious.

do you think that actually makes him a wolf? fascinating.

A pointless attempt to defend, we had already settled why I was still chasing Italiano for answers, as I misread his post. Surely we can all agree it would be fishy to say sure I'll answer my questions, and then never actually answer?

Then we have Italiano defending Anya's sheeping as a town play, settings himself up to sheep anya's vote.

why would i not be interacting as scum

this makes no sense

Scum want to stay under the radar. It's why sheeping is a scum play.

Sheeping is not only a scum play.

As a matter of fact I’m gonna sheep Anya.

VOTE: boxxy

italiano's town on his birthday the world is right and round

I realize this post will likely make me look scummy, attacking the two voting me right now. It's possible I'm being defensive, but with Anya's play so far being unhelpful, and Italiano's "that's not why I'm scum." they both read scum to me.

[boxxy]

lol boxxy thinks long posts = town

I think effort = town. Anybody not putting in effort is making an anti town play regardless of their true alignment. Lack of content and coasting benefits scum. We can't all just sit back and judge others. The whole premise of mafia is "informed minority against uninformed majority." The only way to get informed is with meaningful content.

[boxxy]

Speaking of sleeping

VOTE: Not_Mafia

Let's get some content here Clearly_Mafia. Who are your current scum reads?

[boxxy]

anyas content is more valuable than most of the hot air lemons puts out

effort is not a towntell

Honest effort benefits town. Deceptive effort or sleeping benefits scum. I don't think this is advanced play.

[boxxy]

If you disagree, explain why

[boxxy]

You're already voting me lol

[boxxy]

Also bloodhail, I should clarify, by "effort" i don't mean "long." One can shit out lots of words without saying much. But look at T3's posts for example:

viewtopic.php?t=86556&f=2&st=0&sk=t&sd= ... er_sort=Go

These are what I would qualify as "low effort." Not much substance, just a lot of "joe reads town," with no analysis, no justification of reads, no pressuring. Such posts are basically fluff and don't help move the game forward at all.

[boxxy]

thats how t3 posts its not a scumtell

I said its an example of low effort posts, not explicilty a scumtell, but I'll tell what I'm not going to do:

1. Read a bunch of past games to see if that's actually how someone plays

2. Trust anybody saying "that's how so and so plays, trust me"

3. Continue arguing this point cause I think it's a distraction at this point.

Also sorry, what's "flipbait?"


Bloodhail reads town-ish for me. I disagree on playstyle and meta but that doesn't make him scum, yet.

lemons is such obvious scum jesus

Explain why and convince us and then we can lynch scum. Otherwise this is a worthless post.

[boxxy]

Also are we really going to just let N_M coast like this? I'm tempted to lynch him just to remove dead weight. Allowing such playstyle lets scum sleep, we get to Day 3 and its "well could be N_M but they haven't said jack shit so we can't get a read there."

[boxxy]

and n_m is not gonna do anything which means you probably need to policy him at some point

fair warning though if anyone is put at E-1 he will hammer

As town, or scum or both?

Do you think 150 was an attempt to hammer forgetting that he already voted or just more trollposting?

[boxxy]

Which also means that scum can comfortable let N_M take the fall by setting up a E-1 hammer and let him pull the trigger. Something to keep in mind.

hes not gonna post anything useful

He does post useful content when there is useful content to post.

You know how we get useful content? By generating it. Town can't just sit back and "observe" for scum, otherwise its just a quiet room waiting till night kill.

[boxxy]

I would rather make a mistake policy elim now, then be forced to make it where its lynch or lose.

[boxxy]

Vote stays where it is for now.

[boxxy]

I'll take one last shot to explain what I mean by effort = town.

I do not mean that effort = towntell, and lazy = scumtell.

I mean that effort benefits town, regardless of its source, and lazy benefits scum, regardless of its source.

Scum who make meaningful contribution can end up helping town inadvertently by outing themselves, sacrificing their partner, or making mistakes we can catch them out on later.

Town who are lazy benefit scum by leaving themselves as unknowns, and allowing lazy scums to also slip under the radar.

It's less about somebody providing effort is necessarily town, but more so that somebody providing effort _benefits_ town, regardless of their alignment.

For that reason, with lack of anything else to go on, I will vote against anyone playing what I consider to be play with benefits scum.

[boxxy]

140 feels town and makes me feel good about delibird. not sure if i've said so yet but i've been reading him as town

thats how t3 posts its not a scumtell

I said its an example of low effort posts, not explicilty a scumtell, but I'll tell what I'm not going to do:

1. Read a bunch of past games to see if that's actually how someone plays

do you disregard meta altogether? i'm kind of shocked that you said this so casually, as if it's obvious, considering that doing exactly what you're talking about is a huge part of the game

I don't disregard meta. I disregard people claiming meta without providing links/evidence.

If bloodhail wants to say "that's how T3 plays" he better back it up with examples. I'm not going to research other people's meta calls for them. By all means claim meta, but back it up if you want to convince others, don't just say "trust me this is how T3 plays."

[boxxy]

do you disregard meta altogether? i'm kind of shocked that you said this so casually, as if it's obvious, considering that doing exactly what you're talking about is a huge part of the game

I see that Anya lynched you as mafia for the win in this game here: viewtopic.php?p=12749033#p12749033

For someone who claims meta is "a huge part of the game," perhaps you should share some meta on how you think Anya's play there compare to here.

I find it a bit suspect that Lemons seems to be defending me when many here consider me pretty scummy (being at E-1 for a bit, and E-2 for a while so far). Could be scum trying to build street cred by trying to friend a town.

[boxxy]

cdb probably scum too

can you elaborate on this please?

i could troll you and just say "gut"

but in more words feels somewhat underwhelming, seems mostly like he's trying to not ruffle feathers, and 140 feels like he's making a show of being uncertain with how many times he mentions it in the post - like he really wants you to think "ahh gosh guys this is so hard i just don't know"

Reading CDB in iso I agree with this. Lots of nervous uncertainty on where to vote, town don't tend to display such nervousness, it feels more "performative" to use the word of this game lol.

Not to mention the majority of the rest of CDB's posts are just defending and justifying his play and then asking other people "what do you think about X"

CDB do you honestly still think Italiano is scum? On what basis?

[boxxy]

Is anybody else defending me? That from what I can remember.

For Lemons what I'm seeing is this.

I agreed with Lemons on the "performative" bit about Italiano's "if we're the same alignment" and called out Lemon's post on that as a quality post.

From that point on we hear the following from Lemons

boxxy can be town. i like what's come out of her recently.

Defending my argument for me against bloodhail here

bloodhail: i think you know that 131 is an obvious misrep. posting reads isn't fluff. posting reads without any further justification or pressure

is

fluff, and right now T3 is posting to post. it doesn't feel like he's reading or actively engaging with the game.

and here:

thats how t3 posts its not a scumtell

i'm not disputing that, i'm attacking your misrepresentation of boxxy's argument, and i said as much?

Defending here:

that's E-1 for boxxy. gonna read this page shortly but i really don't like this

And then despite not liking my stance on meta and policy elim compliment my play again here:

140 feels town and makes me feel good about delibird. not sure if i've said so yet but i've been reading him as town

thats how t3 posts its not a scumtell

I said its an example of low effort posts, not explicilty a scumtell, but I'll tell what I'm not going to do:

1. Read a bunch of past games to see if that's actually how someone plays

do you disregard meta altogether? i'm kind of shocked that you said this so casually, as if it's obvious, considering that doing exactly what you're talking about is a huge part of the game

lemons is such obvious scum jesus

Explain why and convince us and then we can lynch scum.

i like this approach rather than the dismissal i so often see of bare reads

also i really don't think 150 was anything other than a reaction test

I would rather make a mistake policy elim now, then be forced to make it where its lynch or lose.

woah yeah okay this sucks and is unexpected

[boxxy]

@boxxy re: anya meta since you like specific links

mini normal 2201 and electoral college mafia are town games i would consider to be representative of her play. as i said, her playstyle is very monotone, right down to pulling the fake "this is E-1" trick almost every single game

I was more specifically asking you to compare her play from when she beat you as mafia to this game that I linked to.

Is anybody else defending me? That from what I can remember.

ive been saying it repeatedly, anya decided you were town, cdb said he thought you were town tho i guess none of us as vocally

I don't really consider a townread as "defending." It's the active defense of my play that the rest of you think was bad. Only Lemons has done that as far as I remember. And trying to buddy a townie can be a scum play.

[boxxy]

Not a fan of boxxy's posts this page.

Expand pls.

[boxxy]

VOTE: Not_Mafia

i still don't want a policy lim today

Why even vote then.

A vote with no intent to follow through applies no pressure.

[boxxy]

Unless you're banking on N_M lolhammering himself so you can get to Day 2.

VOTE: InsidiousLEmons

[boxxy]

Do you think you are being suspected for good reasons?

I don't. But if more than 2 people are finding me scummy than I must concede that my play appears scummy to someone who is town. Rather than defend myself its more productive to scumhunt.

[boxxy]

UNVOTE:

I thought it was E-2, but I didn't see Anya's vote before Lemon's unofficial votecount.

Boy do I hate having a trollhamerr non-poster in this game. I still support a policy elim, this playstyle only benefits scum.

[boxxy]

Lemons is at E-1 by my count, which means he's dead once N_M get's online. I recommend unvoting so we can at least get a claim.

This is sketch though, why go fishing for a claim?

[boxxy]

cdb might be okay actually

What made you change your mind?

[boxxy]

UNOwen's #205 is the post that makes me most interested in the boxxy wagon of anything I've seen. @UNOwen, what did you think of boxxy's #206? You carried on the conversation with him a bit but didn't follow up on that particular caught-from-the-wrong-reasons angle.

I too would like to hear UNOwens response to this.

@CDB what do you mean by "caught-from-the-wrong-reasons angle"

[boxxy]

Why even vote then.

A vote with no intent to follow through applies no pressure.

the sense of 197 is that i'm not

pushing

for a policy lim, but at this point am comfortable starting to build traction on one. and if N_M continues to refuse to contribute anything of value? we can reevaluate. i'm saying i don't want him dead on principle as of yet, but that we've got to start doing something to get him back in here, or he's going to get away with ending D1 with literally <10 posts

I understand where you're coming from, but by admitting in the same post that you don't support a policy elim, you take the winds out of your vote. It applies no pressure. At the very least you could pretend to support a policy elim as a means of applying pressure to N_M, whilest still intending to back it off.

Such a move might look scummy, but since when does town care about looking scummy when trying to make a play?

UNOwen's #205 is the post that makes me most interested in the boxxy wagon of anything I've seen. @UNOwen, what did you think of boxxy's #206? You carried on the conversation with him a bit but didn't follow up on that particular caught-from-the-wrong-reasons angle.

I too would like to hear UNOwens response to this.

@CDB what do you mean by "caught-from-the-wrong-reasons angle"

'Caught for the wrong reasons' is an interesting scumtell that it seemed like UNOwen was trying to see if you were exhibiting. It's when scum players get annoyed in a condescending way that they're drawing votes for what they think are bad reasons, especially if they thought they were doing well at going unnoticed.

I'm aware of caught-from-the-wrong-reasons means, I called Italiano out on that early on when I felt he was being overly defensive on Lemon's calling him scum for the "if we're the same alignment" bit.

It didn't appear to me that that's what UNOwen was trying to call out on me, but maybe I just read his post differently.

[boxxy]

Also I'd still like the fishing comment explained.

You literally asked for a role claim.

[boxxy]

VOTE: boxxy

Town can be erratic but the ISO doesn't look like a natural progression to me. Italiano/Anya are suspected initially, then vote against N_M and there's no follow up on the initial suspicions. Italiano renews his vote against boxxy, which is laughed off. T3's posts are dismissed even though there is suspicion against boxxy from him. No attempt to engage with either of these players about their votes despite one being a suspect and the other being one of the low content players boxxy has complained about. Instead of actually discussing suspicions the majority of boxxy's posts are wrapped up in the playstyle debate and the continued N_M vote is eventually justified by 167 which is fine in isolation but "lack of anything else to go on" doesn't match his previous opinions.

I don't see how he can end up on "Lemons might be scum white knighting" before first sorting his own voters.

I'll be honest, this is my first forum mafia game in a number of years.

That being said, your post reads like you started out with wanting to make a push on me and are trying to find a way to justify it.

No attempt to engage with either of these players about their votes despite one being a suspect and the other being one of the low content players boxxy has complained about.

What is there to engage with an empty re-vote from Italiano?

Instead of actually discussing suspicions the majority of boxxy's posts are wrapped up in the playstyle debate.

I also have posts about possible scumteam Anya/Italiano, scumread Italiano for caught of the wrong reasons or "that's not why I'm scum" as I've been calling it, scumread Lemons for what felt like a buddying attempt.

the continued N_M vote is eventually justified by 167 which is fine in isolation but "lack of anything else to go on" doesn't match his previous opinions.

My Italiano vote felt like it got all the reaction it was going to get, nobody else was pushing with me, so i figured it was time to try to generate content elsewhere.

I don't see how he can end up on "Lemons might be scum white knighting" before first sorting his own voters.

I was starting to get a strong town read on Lemons and we seemed to be the only two who agreed on playstyle. This made me nervous that I was being buddied. I laid out my case for it in 185

And since others told me I wasn't going to get more out of N_M I figured a switch to Lemons might generate a useful reaction.

Unfortunately it fell flat cause I miscounted and put him at E-1, which with N_M here basically guarantees a lynch.

Finally, regarding T3. I honestly haven't looked to closely at him. His posts are pretty empty and the majority of the game seems to be okay with that.

[boxxy]

Reading page 10, I'm starting to think that Lemons and bloodhail are just two town with very different opinions on playstyle conflicting.

I don't like how after bloodhail justifies T3s posts T3 comes you saying that bloodhail is "very very very town"

That's a pretty strong read for day one page 9, @T3, what makes you so certain?

[boxxy]

Sorry for grammar mistakes, phone posting and autocorrect sucks.

Edited.

I don't like how after bloodhail justifies T3s posts, T3 comes out saying that bloodhail is "very very very town"

[boxxy]

You literally asked for a role claim.

That was a statement. It's standard to force a claim before execution, but it needs to be at E-2 with N_M in game.

-Have you read any other mafia games before joining this one?

Not in depth, but I'm reading a few as we go to try to get a feel for the players here.

-Right but that's my point, didn't you wonder why they are/were voting you? You were worried about Lemons defending you but from your point of view I would imagine the first priority would be the players voting against you.

Spending more time defending yourself than scumhunting is a scumplay.

My first priority is not to make sure people think I'm town, its not to stress about people voting me, its to try to get a read on others, its to scumhunt.

I trust that honest scumhunting will eventually shine though. Scum have to fake it, and fall back on defending their play to generate more content. It's partly why "caught for the wrong reasons" is a scumtell.

-That was poorly worded, it should be the majority of your posts until the Lemons read. I don't understand how this lines up with your next response, "lack of anything else to go on" reads to me as "lack of scumreads/suspicions". Was the Italiano suspicion for reaction?

Wasn't really much to talk about before there. The fastest way to get beyond RVS and get productive is to get content worth talking about. So yeah I talked about play style when it felt like we had 2-3 players who seemed unwilling to provide content. Sue me.

Italiano was legit suspicion, he's still on my minor scumlist, but rather than continue to park a vote there I figured it's more productive to try to generate more content. You're really zeroing in on that "for lack of anything else to go on." That was meant in a general sense, and in the context of the post means "for lack of anything else to go on, play that I consider to benefit scum warrants suspicion and voting."

I dunno your whole argument feels like "you didn't defend yourself strongly." The votes on me didn't warrant defense, there was not any content behind them to discuss IMO.

[boxxy]

wow i fucked the formatting on that one sorry.

Also re: "it's standard to force a claim"

Fair enough, felt a bit rushed to me, but I admit that's probably because I knew I was going to back my vote off if it got close to hammer.

[boxxy]

I disagreed with channels anallysis but I didn't think it was particularly scummy.

Is this an answer to anything or just a general statement?

I would still like to know where you get the "very very very town" read on bloodhail from.

[boxxy]

257 but with the correct formatting:

You literally asked for a role claim.

That was a statement. It's standard to force a claim before execution, but it needs to be at E-2 with N_M in game.

Fair enough, felt a bit rushed to me, but I admit that's probably because I knew I was going to back my vote off if it got close to hammer.

-Have you read any other mafia games before joining this one?

Not in depth, but I'm reading a few as we go to try to get a feel for the players here.

-Right but that's my point, didn't you wonder why they are/were voting you? You were worried about Lemons defending you but from your point of view I would imagine the first priority would be the players voting against you.

Spending more time defending yourself than scumhunting is a scumplay.

My first priority is not to make sure people think I'm town, its not to stress about people voting me, its to try to get a read on others, its to scumhunt.

I trust that honest scumhunting will eventually shine though. Scum have to fake it, and fall back on defending their play to generate more content. It's partly why "caught for the wrong reasons" is a scumtell.

-That was poorly worded, it should be the majority of your posts until the Lemons read. I don't understand how this lines up with your next response, "lack of anything else to go on" reads to me as "lack of scumreads/suspicions". Was the Italiano suspicion for reaction?[.

Wasn't really much to talk about before there. The fastest way to get beyond RVS and get productive is to get content worth talking about. So yeah I talked about play style when it felt like we had 2-3 players who seemed unwilling to provide content. Sue me.

Italiano was legit suspicion, he's still on my minor scumlist, but rather than continue to park a vote there I figured it's more productive to try to generate more content. You're really zeroing in on that "for lack of anything else to go on." That was meant in a general sense, and in the context of the post means "for lack of anything else to go on, play that I consider to benefit scum warrants suspicion and voting."

I dunno your whole argument feels like "you didn't defend yourself strongly." The votes on me didn't warrant defense, there was not any content behind them to discuss IMO.

[boxxy]

Wasn't really much to talk about before there. The fastest way to get beyond RVS and get productive is to get content worth talking about. So yeah I talked about play style when it felt like we had 2-3 players who seemed unwilling to provide content. Sue me.

Italiano was legit suspicion, he's still on my minor scumlist, but rather than continue to park a vote there I figured it's more productive to try to generate more content. You're really zeroing in on that "for lack of anything else to go on." That was meant in a general sense, and in the context of the post means "for lack of anything else to go on, play that I consider to benefit scum warrants suspicion and voting."

I dunno your whole argument feels like "you didn't defend yourself strongly." The votes on me didn't warrant defense, there was not any content behind them to discuss IMO.

It's not about defending yourself, it's about your perspective. As in, if you're being voted with no explanation, isn't that worth asking about. You talked about T3, but didn't directly ask him a question until 247 even though he was voting you for in your view not a good reason. Same deal with Italiano, you suspected him but didn't try to get some reasoning out of him. I'll admit I'm assuming how you'd react here but I imagine that if N_M had responded to your pressure with a reads list with no justifications, you would have pushed for more.

Your case on me is reaching further with every post.

You talked about T3, but didn't directly ask him a question until 247 even though he was voting you for

in your view not a good reason.

I never claimed that. His vote on me wasn't terrible I'm sure my post looked like LHF to people, votes were on me and I brought up Not_Mafia. Nothing really for me to say about it.

Same deal with Italiano, you suspected him but didn't try to get some reasoning out of him.

Someone I thought was scum puts a vote on me that's already on me. I'm not sure what you expect me to ask him.

I'll admit I'm assuming how you'd react here

I too can build imaginary cases on people based on things they didn't actually do.

At this point I'm unsure if you're just so tunnelvisioned that you can't/won't comprehend my perspective, or your scum trying to set me up for the day 1 lynch.

In particular it looks like you're trying to bring others onto this case by asking Lemons what he thinks.

[boxxy]

Quick summary of my reads:

Town

Lemons
bloodhail


I honestly think these are two town with different opinions on playstyle/tells/strategy arguing against eachother.

Slight Town

CBD

CBDs latest posts are more informative. His early work felt empty, like scum trying to avoid being called out for sleeping. But I like the new stuff.

Neutral

T3

Pretty devoid of content. Calling me out for LHF was decent, but then ignoring my question in 247 and basically being unhelpful makes me weary.

Null

N_M

For obvious reasons

Slight Scum

Italiano

For Italiano, the mincing words about "if we're the same alignment" felt like a case of caught-for-the-wrong-reasons. It felt overly defensive of the word choice, almost deliberately not seeing the other POV.

More Scum

UNOwens
Anya

After skimming Anya's other games, her style is consistent, but it also feels a bit more "oh so random" here, similar to her scum play in 2205 viewtopic.php?f=2&t=86324 as opposed to 2201 where her posts were a bit more informative viewtopic.php?t=86195&f=2&st=0&sk=t&sd= ... er_sort=Go

I admit I haven't read the games in question in immense detail yet.

For UNOwens I'm now reading scum because this case on me no longer feels honest. It's reaching and with trying to bring Lemons in, feels like scum trying to set up a day 1 lynch.

[boxxy]

What’s the difference between neutral and null?

Neutral: Some pro scum and pro town indicators, undecided where they fall.

Null: Dick all to go on.

And why haven’t you ever voted for any of your “scumreads”?

I've voted for you.

VOTE: UNOwen

happy?

Let's see your list.

[boxxy]

BTW that puts me at E-1 so I'm dead when N_M comes online, but I guess that's pretty convenient for scum like you

[boxxy]

Yoo legit though I think Italiano just scum slipped.

I don't think at this point in the game town puts someone at L-1 recklessly.


Especially someone who has said this in the past.

Also since Not_Mafia is playing the claim should be before the next person puts him at L-1.

But he claims he wants a reaction from me.

I really wanna see what you have to say about that post boxxy?

Doesn't ask for a claim, doesn't say he's decided and wants to execute, just wants a reaction.

If I get hammered and italiano just sleeps till tomorrow, don't trust him if he claims he just miscounted. I do not believe Italiano as town would make a mistake like that at this point.

He's using N_M for plausible deniability.

VOTE: ItalianoVD

Yep I'm happy here. You dun goofed scum

[boxxy]

Yoo legit though I think Italiano just scum slipped.

I don't think at this point in the game town puts someone at L-1 recklessly.


Especially someone who has said this in the past.

Also since Not_Mafia is playing the claim should be before the next person puts him at L-1.

But he claims he wants a reaction from me.

I really wanna see what you have to say about that post boxxy?

Doesn't ask for a claim, doesn't say he's decided and wants to execute, just wants a reaction.

If I get hammered and italiano just sleeps till tomorrow, don't trust him if he claims he just miscounted. I do not believe Italiano as town would make a mistake like that at this point.

He's using N_M for plausible deniability.

VOTE: ItalianoVD

Yep I'm happy here. You dun goofed scum

not_mafia's vote is already on you

For UNOwens I'm now reading scum because this case on me no longer feels honest. It's reaching and with trying to bring Lemons in, feels like scum trying to set up a day 1 lynch.

at what point do you feel owen's case on you become dishonest? and i think referring to owen asking me for an updated read on you as him "trying to bring me in" is a bit of a mischaracterization.

Yoo legit though I think Italiano just scum slipped.

I don't think at this point in the game town puts someone at L-1 recklessly.


Especially someone who has said this in the past.

Also since Not_Mafia is playing the claim should be before the next person puts him at L-1.

But he claims he wants a reaction from me.

I really wanna see what you have to say about that post boxxy?

Doesn't ask for a claim, doesn't say he's decided and wants to execute, just wants a reaction.

If I get hammered and italiano just sleeps till tomorrow, don't trust him if he claims he just miscounted. I do not believe Italiano as town would make a mistake like that at this point.

He's using N_M for plausible deniability.

VOTE: ItalianoVD

Yep I'm happy here. You dun goofed scum

Nice try but Not_Mafia was already on your wagon.

FFS, I guess I need more sleep. I knew the count was right, but forgot N_M was already part of it. Still would like to see your readlist.

There’s a reason why I was okay voting you and knew we’d be able to get a claim. I almost feel bad ow bad you failed on this one.

This is believable now that I realize N_M was already on me. That puts me back to UNOwen

VOTE: UNOwen

For UNOwens I'm now reading scum because this case on me no longer feels honest. It's reaching and with trying to bring Lemons in, feels like scum trying to set up a day 1 lynch.

at what point do you feel owen's case on you become dishonest? and i think referring to owen asking me for an updated read on you as him "trying to bring me in" is a bit of a mischaracterization.

As of 267

He misrepresents what I think of T3s vote on me, and continues to push the same tired argument that I'm scum because I go offence first instead of defence first, seemingly ignoring my justification for it in 260

Asking for your read is a casual way of trying to get people interested in the case he's pushing.

[boxxy]

Books y, why UNOwen?

See 286 and 287

[boxxy]

@Anya: What do you want me to respond to?

@bloodhail I'm a vanilla townie

If I go look for who joined my wagon opportunistically, there's scum here for sure. I'm rereading the whole thread now to see if I can find anything useful to share before I go.

[boxxy]

Still waiting on that readlist Italiano, stop stalling

[boxxy]

Still waiting on that readlist Italiano, stop stalling

I never said I was 100% giving one. Why’d you assume so?

I'm asking you to provide one, do you think it benefits town for you to keep your reads secret? Why? Most other players have provided read lists at this point.

[boxxy]

Sorry been busy, I have set aside some time tonight to finish rereading and catch up.

[boxxy]

Okay I've finished my re-read, all the early plays feel different after getting to know you all a bit more.

UNVOTE: UNOwen His case no longer feels dishonest, just tunneled.

VOTE: CBD

I would support voting CBD or N_M at this point. I don't like how CBD starts the game preparing us all for bad play from him due to being rusty. And his posts overall just feel more like trying to appear as contributing, than actually contributing. I'm happy with N_M due to policy and PoE.

I still unhappy with Italiano unwilling to provide reads at this moment, I could be persuaded to put a vote there but as it stands I'm okay to see what he comes out with day 2, I have some theories.

@UNOwen: I think you're tunneled bro.

Why is shifting positions a scumtell? You definitely prompted me to look at T3 again. I admitted early in our discussion that I had been ignoring him.

Later in our discussion when you insisted I thought his vote was bad, I took an actual look at it and decided that no I didn't think it was bad, I just didn't care.

I've been ignoring T3 because his posts are empty. I don't really know how to engage with or read a player like that. Early in the game when I voted N_M for sleeping, my intention was to push T3 next for coasting as well, but my N_M push got shut down pretty hard by the rest of the game so it didn't seem like pushing T3 for the same reasons would be useful. After that I basically wrote T3 off for the time being and decided to focus on players I could actually get content out of.

So yes your post did in fact prompt me to look at T3, I had been ignoring him since my N_M post fell flat, hoping that I could rely on more experienced town to get a read on someone like that.

When I said "I don't" in 206, you are reading it as if I said "I've analyzed the votes on me and decided that they are for bad reasons." but all I meant was "I haven't paid attention to the votes on me." I felt like I was drawing a lot of scumreads but that Lemons was defending me so I got worried I was being buddied and tried to push lemons.

[boxxy]

N_M leans town? On what basis?

I don't think Lemons is happening today, join the CBD train, choo choo.

[boxxy]

Oh I see your 359 now. I disagree but probably only because I still read lemons as town.b

[boxxy]

Cause I've still got time, I'm online, people have expressed interest in CDB as well. I can switch to N_M if need be.

[boxxy]

@Lemons regarding 346

I actually think N_M and Italiano are opposite alignments. From my L-1 wagon of N_M, T3, Italiano, and UNOwen, I still feel there's at least 1 scum on it, and probably only 1 scum.

I'm neutral on T3 and leaning town on UNOwen. That leaves Italiano and N_M.

I don't think Italiano defends N_M if they're both scum, I think its easier and safer to just keep your distance and say nothing or dismiss it as "yep that's N_M"

[boxxy]

can you point to any of cdb's posts in particular that look like "trying to appear as contributing" as opposed to actually contributing?

Read his iso, good number of townreads, almost no scumreads. Lots of "gee this is hard" posts.

Back in 216 he says his scum reads are Anya, T3, and NM, followed by saying

Will place a vote on one of those three in a few posts' time once I've addressed some other points and checked the vote count.

Of course he never actually places a vote on them, not until just recently in 345 he votes N_M. Why? "in the interest in actually having a vote down."

In fact the more I read this the less I like it. By 345 it may have been clear that the boxxy train wasn't arriving at station and that a policy elim on N_M was likely. He gets his vote on N_M early and can now coast to day 2 as town is forced to pull the trigger there.

Feels pretty opportunistic to me.

[boxxy]

Re: Italiano.

I also don't like 333, nor 158. Nor do I like 356, feels like getting ahead of the story for when N_M flips scum. Nor do I like how he won't give his readlist today. But I can see some scenarios where town!Italiano does this, and I don't think the Italiano train is happening today, so I'm willing to return to it day 2.

[boxxy]

I do think Italiano has a point regarding what information we get from a N_M flip in 355, but I don't think we get nothing from it.

Run your own thought experiment on how you'll react upon seeing town!N_M vs scum!N_M.

For me, I think there's some indication that N_M and Italiano are opposite alignment as I outlined above.

[boxxy]

Phone posting, and going afk for a bot.

I'll explain the opportunism later. But just putting this down now so we can hammer Incase I don't get back before days end.

VOTE: Not_Mafia

[boxxy]

By my count that's a hammer, glad to have that out of the way.

@CDB: Acknowledging that your actions look scum doesn't make them not scum. Scum often play the sympathy card "yeah I'd vote me" and you've done that many times.

The opportunity is putting your vote in a place where it will be scrutinized the least, and getting it there early, when it was evident that we'd end up on NM eventually for lack of better options (lol come at me UNOwen).

[boxxy]

It's the safest non participation play, putting your vote in a safe spot early.

This all just reads as scum doing what they think town would do. It's hard to get reads on people when you know they're all town.

If NM flips scum I'm looking here for CDB/NM scumteam

[boxxy]

Maybe he's trolling in your scum pt and your fed up with him

[boxxy]

Re: Italiano.

I also don't like 333, nor 158. Nor do I like 356, feels like getting ahead of the story for when N_M flips scum. Nor do I like how he won't give his readlist today. But I can see some scenarios where town!Italiano does this, and I don't think the Italiano train is happening today, so I'm willing to return to it day 2.

saying you're looking for a cdb/n_m scumteam is super sus considering you posted this just last night. i'm having trouble seeing a convincing case for this pairing.

Wat. Last night I said I think N_M and Italiano are opposite alignments. You are the one claiming N_M+Italiano scumteam.

though @cdb i think "guess i'll whine and policy my partner" is kind of a misrep of your own behaviour. 216 is as much advocacy as we see for a policy lim from you for a while, and it isn't until over 100 posts later that you actually place your vote -- not in favour of policying him, but "in the interest of having a vote down"

p-edit lol boxxy reaching across continents to make this pair work

lol 405 is clearly in jest. Reacting that strongly to it is sus.

[boxxy]

Why is shifting positions a scumtell? You definitely prompted me to look at T3 again. I admitted early in our discussion that I had been ignoring him.

Shifting positions is fine, it's that you said I was misrepresenting you because of it that bothered me. Your later explanation of what you meant is a plausible perspective, but then didn't you notice that I was interpreting your answer wrongly when I talked about it in 240 and 320?

I didn't parse that out of 240. I ignored 320 because I wanted to push Italiano for a scumlist and I wanted to see if you would push my case any harder. I felt your case was dishonest and I wanted to see if you'd slip trying to drive it home.

It wasn't until 372 that I realized you were hung up on the "I don't" and your case appeared more honest.

[boxxy]

Cool, participate next time.

[boxxy]

Lol, I think this is just more trolling.

No guilt here

[boxxy]

Good game all

[boxxy]

I am quite, box-like

[boxxy]

Wanted an avatar that's not from 2012

[boxxy]

Not going to lie T3, I thought you were throwing until your final play haha