Newbie 2067 - Pizza! - End!

[Lukewarm]

this is what luke saids now. but here is what hockey said.

Are you saying that you are going to compare what I said now compared to what Hockey said before, in order to prove that I am changing my reads to fit the situation?

Shouldn't you compare me to me?

more interested in showing why i think there is a distance play. here.

Yes. The classic "distance" play of town reading each other

[cyrus62]

i mean it could also be haschel who hasn't really posted much

Lack of activity should be looked at as a whole to really say that. This answer still feels very thrown out there, pulling an implication that they are possible lurking scum. Also, you've been pushing getting haschel into talking more, but then have them on a scum lean. I there's only one part of that, which makes sense. Getting them to talk more gives more opportunity to read them right now, but not what is considered a scum lean.

this is bad strange. every one has the right to have scum leans. most people who have played here long enough believe lurkers are scum. so are you voting him for voting hascal to get more info?

[cyrus62]

this is what luke saids now. but here is what hockey said.

Are you saying that you are going to compare what I said now compared to what Hockey said before, in order to prove that I am changing my reads to fit the situation?

Shouldn't you compare me to me?

more interested in showing why i think there is a distance play. here.

Yes. The classic "distance" play of town reading each other

yes why on earth would scum town read each other. look i said show me why i should follow you.

[Lukewarm]

No-

No you didn't... You told me that I should be voting Hockey.

I do not want to offend you again, but I do feel like if I keep responding to you, we are going to just dominate the thread.

I think I am gonna wait for Zyla to get back to me before I post again :/

[HockeyFan]

Do you really think that the best play for me to make here is to just follow your vote?

show me why i should vote strange over hockey? @ hockey show me why i should vote std over lukewarm . show me why you two are town. you may not be willing to work with me. but i'll work with you if you show me why i should trust you.

Alright well I think STD is scummier tbh because of their logs. They are super non-comittal imo and are just lurking(could be a difference in playstyles). They have made about 3-4 TR's(some of them being super lazy imo), and they havent made SR'S to push so this is why u vote STD over Luke

[StrangeMatter]

going through some personal shit atm so i may be in and out but tonally i'm not a fan of strange, trying to sort out if that's playstyle or if he's scum

it could be hockey with his constant push of me i don't know if the read has developed or if it's a lazy push

it could also be haschel

That last part of this just seems a little weird to me. It felt like you just kind of threw the thought out there. Also, I'm not sure what caused this, but what's the change between post #67 and now that changed your mind?

i mean it could also be haschel who hasn't really posted much

Lack of activity should be looked at as a whole to really say that. This answer still feels very thrown out there, pulling an implication that they are possible lurking scum. Also, you've been pushing getting haschel into talking more, but then have them on a scum lean. I there's only one part of that, which makes sense. Getting them to talk more gives more opportunity to read them right now, but not what is considered a scum lean.

this is bad strange. every one has the right to have scum leans. most people who have played here long enough believe lurkers are scum. so are you voting him for voting hascal to get more info?

Two things I really noticed from STD was their change from an early TR to implying a SR just today. Right now, I don't see a reasonable reason other than lurkers are scum from what you've said. Even then, their answer is pretty much just repeating what they've said already. By your standards its completely reasonable, but could've been explained better, which to me points towards a low effort, which I feel is something scum can do.

[Save The Dragons]

my content has probably gone down due to my future in-laws being in town and today's not a great day because i had to kick my fiance's father off of our property last night. i realize i haven't been around before that but i'll try to see if i can stay caught up and post a little more.

UNVOTE: let me see if i can recalibrate with a look at everyone

[Zyla]

@mod who is not voting

Luke and HC

funny huh.

How so? We've got a ton of time left and they currently don't have someone they want to keep their vote on, that seems like it's NAI to me

Maybe I am addressing the wrong person....

@Zyla, why do you think that Hockey is scummy?

Honestly, it mostly gut and possibly some confirmation bias at this point, but I haven't seen enough towniness to counteract the things I've pointed out before previously.

Also, Zyla, did you have any thoughts on Strange wrt 698

To me, while that's definitely a possibility, it's also quite possible for scum!strange that their partner is inexperienced, doesn't use the PT, etc. I don't think it does enough for their case to count it either way

Spoiler:

Here's a random question to everyone.

How confident or nervous are you about winning this game?

I'm very confident winning this game now because you have outed as scum by voting me so the 2 mafia are already outed to me

So, going through ISOs I actually found this kind of interesting. I didn't really notice it much the first time, and mostly thought it was a joke, but Hockey is saying "the

2

mafia are [known] to me". Strange is supposed to be the first of course, but who's the second one?

On the topic of HockeyFan, this is actually really interesting to me.

As far as I can tell, it seems like all of your scum leans have been partner reads so far. Is that coincidence or is it just your style to look more specifically for pairs then any individual player?

I tend to go for partnery reads alot more since mafia partners tend to have associative tells

Slightly random question for Hockey from this: if I were scum, who do you think my partner would be?

Probably should have worded this better. In post 268, you TR them in the first line but your final read is a null read on them? Your SR in that post was left blank(presumably because u

didnt

SR them)

I think you are not parsing out his comments the same way I am

Azeru - in 135 points out, rightly, that we somehow managed to get Hockey to e-1, and calls for us to chill the hell out. Read: town. But also establishes as somebody watching and tracking the game very closely. Read:scum. End result, I dunno. Neutral I guess.

I read that as

"Azeru - in 135 points out, rightly, that we somehow managed to get Hockey to e-1, and calls for us to chill the hell out. Read: town" Pav is giving Azeru townie points for 135

"But also establishes as somebody watching and tracking the game very closely. Read:scum" Pav is giving Azeru scummy points for this

"End result, I dunno. Neutral I guess" Since Pav has things that ping Azeru as scum and things that ping Azeru as town, they ended on neutral

Oh ok Yea I see now, I thought he formatted his comments like I tr Azeru <reasons> SR azeru : <nothing>. and at the very end, he Null read them. Okay well if thats the case azeru/pav probs arent partners but one of them is the 2nd scum

So, around this time, you had Azeru as a hard town read. If you were thinking either Pav or Azeru had to be scum, how come that didn't make you want to vote Pav?

Alright so as for 21, it was merely a meme.
If you were scum, you could be partners with about anybody tbh(except Strange(maybe))

Yes there is still a possibly of their being

1 scum between them

, but I am more confident in STD flipping scum(and being the 2nd mafia) rn so that is why I am pushing it more

Honestly, I'm not sure that quite answers my question: at

that

point, when you seemed sure that one of them was scum, and you were sure Azeru was town, why didn't you vote for or question Pav?

[Lukewarm]

Honestly, it mostly gut and possibly some confirmation bias at this point, but I haven't seen enough towniness to counteract the things I've pointed out before previously.

Okay, I guess I will look to your iso to try and figure it out

[Haschel Cedricson]

Alright there are a few directions I'm interested in going. First off, Strange spends the bulk of the game focusing on just three players. There's a lot of suspicion about HockeyFan, a whole lot of sound with no substance about Cyrus, and the interactions with Pavowski which ultimately result in a vote on Pavowski. There are a few things I see here. First of all, the push back on Pavowski is not good. Pav is playing very pro-town, and his vote for Strange is well-reasoned and well-justified. Meanwhile, Strange's defense of their own vote on Pav comes across as lackluster to me.

Also of note, Strange says that Zyla is a "decently good townread". No explanation is given.

So, is Zyla a good townread? She certainly has a long enough ISO that we should be able to find out. But are those posts substantial? No. No they are not. Out of all of her posts I was only able to pinpoint four that look like they are scumhunting or scumhunting-adjacent: A vote on Hockey with weak reasoning, a minor defense of Lukewarm with weak reasoning, a list of reads where the scumreads are justified with "Mostly gut read" on Strange and "I feel like I've made my case enough here" on Hockey (she has not btw).

Vote: Zyla

is a good road to follow and Zyla/Strange isn't a possibility that strikes me as beyond the pale.

Meanwhile Azeru is making some posts that I like, and Fen seems weirdly focused on me to a point that is disproportionate with the few posts I had made.

I'm still gonna be rereading more, but this should provide enough of a framework for a discussion for now.

[Lukewarm]

From looking at your mentions of him, I think it boils down to him avoiding your questions early in the day, and then you tthink his reads are not genuine because he can't back them up or outright walks them back when you press him on it

Spoiler:

18->74 with STD
112->153 with me
194->211 with you
544->738 with Pav and Azeru

Did I miss anything you want me to look at as well?

If that is your case, I will go back and look at his pushes. I think that for the first chunk of the day, I was mainly interacting with his weird partner interaction case on me. I know I have a tendency to TR people who loudly push me, because I don't feel like I am a particularly easy person to push a miselim on, and I expect scum to be looking for that kind of person to target Day 1.

I am not sure that I saw enough in your iso to shake my own read on him, but I will give it a second look.

[Lukewarm]

Spoiler:

Alright there are a few directions I'm interested in going. First off, Strange spends the bulk of the game focusing on just three players. There's a lot of suspicion about HockeyFan, a whole lot of sound with no substance about Cyrus, and the interactions with Pavowski which ultimately result in a vote on Pavowski. There are a few things I see here. First of all, the push back on Pavowski is not good. Pav is playing very pro-town, and his vote for Strange is well-reasoned and well-justified. Meanwhile, Strange's defense of their own vote on Pav comes across as lackluster to me.

Also of note, Strange says that Zyla is a "decently good townread". No explanation is given.

So, is Zyla a good townread? She certainly has a long enough ISO that we should be able to find out. But are those posts substantial? No. No they are not. Out of all of her posts I was only able to pinpoint four that look like they are scumhunting or scumhunting-adjacent: A vote on Hockey with weak reasoning, a minor defense of Lukewarm with weak reasoning, a list of reads where the scumreads are justified with "Mostly gut read" on Strange and "I feel like I've made my case enough here" on Hockey (she has not btw).

Vote: Zyla

is a good road to follow and Zyla/Strange isn't a possibility that strikes me as beyond the pale.

Meanwhile Azeru is making some posts that I like, and Fen seems weirdly focused on me to a point that is disproportionate with the few posts I had made.

I'm still gonna be rereading more, but this should provide enough of a framework for a discussion for now.

I feel like you made a better case against strange then you did against Zyla, but then you placed your vote on Zyla. Can you talk more about why you went with Zyla over strange?

A lot of what you said about Strange matches some of my own concerns over that slot, but I am reading Zyla as town, so I am curious what you are seeing there.

[Pavowski]

Sorry to make a 2nd post devoid of real content. RL got out of hand today and the thread went to 100 mph again... It'll be tomorrow morning before I can post anything of substance.

Sorry dudes.

[Lukewarm]

I mean, I literally just isoed her, and I felt like she was doing a decent amount of digging into Hockey. Questioning his reads and votes and how those didn't line up for her.

[Lukewarm]

I also find it strange that you boiled her scumread on Strange down to "mostly just gut" when this is what she said

Honestly, looking through their Iso, I just see a lot of posts with very little to say. Mostly gut read though

Sure she says that it is gut, but she also backs it up with saying that she is posting a lot with very little content. And, like compare that to the case you just made against Zyla

But are those posts substantial? No. No they are not.

Why is that a good reason for you to scum read Zyla, but then a weak reason for Zyla to scum read Strange?

[Haschel Cedricson]

I mean, I literally just isoed her, and I felt like she was doing a decent amount of digging into Hockey. Questioning his reads and votes and how those didn't line up for her.

"Decent amount" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there; besides the post preceding the vote and 155 it's all incredibly light. Why specifically are you reading Zyla as town?

As for why I'm bringing attention to Zyla over Strange, I am declining to answer that at the moment.

Preview Edit: For starters I'm not claiming "gut". Second of all, Strange had made a ton of game-relevant posts to comment on so "a lot of posts with little say" isn't really an accurate description. Up to that point in the game Strange had been saying a fair bit about Hockey and Cyrus. That's not nothing.

[Save The Dragons]

Azeru

105 i like, looks like he's trying to get a better sense of hockeyfan.

237 has a case on cyrus. i don't think i realized what cyrus was at this point and i agree cyrus laid a bunch of posts that were vote worthy.

333 i like the callout to 287 but i'm not sure my answer is the weakest, i would say that i never really understood the question or why it was asked. his point about luke is interesting though i'm not sure i agree with his "too townie" logic. but his point about haschel seems a little off to me, which is why i asked about it. there's a chance they could be partners and he picked his scumbuddy to be his town read.

399 i like the reference to cyrus being anti-town

604 raises an interesting point but i do think cyrus is town, i think he's just a lot of noise at this point. i think he's calmed down a bit but his wild vote swings have been strange.

Haschel Cedricson

17 i'm not sure what to make of his "vanilla town means zero fucks" post, it could come from vt or bombastic scum but i'm not sure it was a good idea to basically say "i'm not a pr don't nk me but also i'm supposed to draw the nk"

i've talked a lot about his interaction with strange

140 i agree with. @Haschel, how do you feel about Hockeyfan now?

759 i'm not focused on you i keep getting asked about you. why do you go for zyla instead of strange?

Hockeyfan

89 i guess i'm scumread for my interactions with strange here, which seems to make sense only if we're partners.

310 here is where i'm a gut read. when asked about it he points back to this post which is weird since he mainly called it a gut read.

then he just kind of pushes me over and over again 397 437

492 gives a reason which is weird because it didn't show up before and i don't think it's a strong case against me (but maybe i'm biased)

more push 539 634 654 692 but not much of a case against me still

754 i'm scum because of my posts but no posts given

I don't think i've been non-committal. I've given a few reads that have progressed as time goes on and i've voted my scum reads whether i've said them or not.

[Haschel Cedricson]

17 i'm not sure what to make of his "vanilla town means zero fucks" post, it could come from vt or bombastic scum but i'm not sure it was a good idea to basically say "i'm not a pr don't nk me but also i'm supposed to draw the nk"

i've talked a lot about his interaction with strange

140 i agree with. @Haschel, how do you feel about Hockeyfan now?

759 i'm not focused on you i keep getting asked about you. why do you go for zyla instead of strange?

1) I was asked in RVS if I preferred being Town or Mafia. My reply was I prefer being vanilla town most of all. Somebody caught that but I'm too lazy to find out who.

2) Better, although admittedly that's partially because my two strongest scumreads have gone after him. I've skimmed his ISO but haven't done a deep dive yet like I did with the others I mentioned in my last post.

3) No comment.

[Zyla]

Also of note, Strange says that Zyla is a "decently good townread". No explanation is given.

So, is Zyla a good townread? She certainly has a long enough ISO that we should be able to find out. But are those posts substantial? No. No they are not. Out of all of her posts I was only able to pinpoint four that look like they are scumhunting or scumhunting-adjacent: A vote on Hockey with weak reasoning, a minor defense of Lukewarm with weak reasoning, a list of reads where the scumreads are justified with "Mostly gut read" on Strange and "I feel like I've made my case enough here" on Hockey (she has not btw).

Apologies if I haven't explained my views on Hockey as well as I thought, tbh I'm not always the best at explaining my thoughts, and that's part of why I like this game, since it's a fun way to practice. I'll try and go back and figure out what needs fleshing out, but is there a particular part of it that you think needs improvement?

From looking at your mentions of him, I think it boils down to him avoiding your questions early in the day, and then you think his reads are not genuine because he can't back them up or outright walks them back when you press him on it

Spoiler:

18->74 with STD
112->153 with me
194->211 with you
544->738 with Pav and Azeru

Ye, I think that's pretty much it. Also the fact that I'm still not sure what his initial TR on Fenrir was even supposedly based on.

I am not sure that I saw enough in your iso to shake my own read on him, but I will give it a second look.

That's fair, honestly until we get NK info I don't think my read on him is going to change, but it's not like it's a 100% chance he's scum either

Pedit: haven't had a chance to look at 766+ yet, will reply to those after eating supper

[Lukewarm]

I mean, I literally just isoed her, and I felt like she was doing a decent amount of digging into Hockey. Questioning his reads and votes and how those didn't line up for her.

"Decent amount" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there; besides the post preceding the vote and 155 it's all incredibly light. Why specifically are you reading Zyla as town?

As for why I'm bringing attention to Zyla over Strange, I am declining to answer that at the moment.

Preview Edit: For starters I'm not claiming "gut". Second of all, Strange had made a ton of game-relevant posts to comment on so "a lot of posts with little say" isn't really an accurate description. Up to that point in the game Strange had been saying a fair bit about Hockey and Cyrus. That's not nothing.

I think that Zyla has not done as good of a job summarizing her read as she could, but she is definitely pushing him over posts that she thinks are scummy.

Spoiler:

70 into 87, pressing him over his STD read, and calling him out for trying to back off of it
She presses him over his read of me in 155 and 157
She presses him over his read of her in 207
And then she pushes him again in 720
And then again in 757

I also liked the way that she handled Cyrus.

I will admit that a decent part of the reason my town read on her is as confident as it is, is that I just witnessed her scum game, and she feels very different in this game.

I think my only real concern in regards to Zyla is that she seems a bit overly focused on Hockey, but I don't think that you can genuinely argue that she has not been pushing him and repeatedly questioning him over things that she found scummy.

[Lukewarm]

Maybe it is {HC, Strange}

That would explain his "sure, Strange is scummy, but lets transition to Zyla instead" move, and that could explain why Strange didn't have someone in a PT helping them deal with being put at e-1.

[StrangeMatter]

Or that could be the result of them having several posts on each other from what I remember.

[Haschel Cedricson]

I think that Zyla has not done as good of a job summarizing her read as she could, but she is definitely pushing him over posts that she thinks are scummy.

70 into 87, pressing him over his STD read, and calling him out for trying to back off of it
She presses him over his read of me in 155 and 157
She presses him over his read of her in 207
And then she pushes him again in 720
And then again in 757

Okay, let's look deeper at these posts she thinks are scummy.

• HockeyFan mentions that an RQS question was asked and doesn't answer it -> "I find it interesting that you mention my question but don't actually respond to either of them" and "Ignoring is NAI, but mentioning it and not responding seemed a little off to me."
  
  
  I don't know how many fucks the rest of you give towards a player not answering a blatant RQS question, but I promise you your number is way too high.
  
  
  
• Hockey makes a weak read -> Zyla points out it is weak -> Hockey acknowledges it was weak -> Zyla attacks Hockey for backing down from a read she herself pointed out was weak in the first place.
  
  
  
  
• Hockey says he didn't feel Luke was genuine in his first few posts -> Zyla attacks something that pretty much by definition is a subjective feeling, and adds that experienced scum would be less likely to defend their partner.
  
  
  While bussing is a thing, in a game with two scum it's incredibly important that the scum don't lose a member on Day 1, so this is an incredibly weak defense of Luke.
  
  
  
• HockeyFan mentions that Lukewarm had thrown minor suspicion onto HockeyFan along with Cyrus, although most pressure had come from me -> Zyla points out that Lukewarm wasn't thinking that Hockeyfan was scummy.
  
  
  That, of course, ignores the fact that Lukewarm had indeed been applying pressure to Hockey; Luke's 84/145/147/148/151/164 are certainly adversarial enough with regards to Hockeyfan that I have no problem whatsoever with Hockeyfan interpreting it as a minor attack on him.
  
  The remaining posts all refer to things that were said after I read Zyla's ISO but I'll indulge you anyway.
  
  
  
• Zyla attacks Hockey for a supposed scumslip in Hockey's very first post of the game.
  
  
  I don't care about the RVS stage at all on page 2; I'm not gonna start caring on page 31. I can't analyze the rest of this post or 757 until I do the deep dive on HockeyFan.

All of that is weak as hell.

[Lukewarm]

Dude, most of her posts are making multiple points, and you are cherry picking the ones that fit the case you are trying to make, and ignoring the others.

Like every single bullet point in 772 is terrible. You are looking at the posts, finding the weakest single sentence in the post, and then claiming that that is the primary content of the post, which is just wrong.

Spoiler:

Will go point by point. To be clear, I am not arguing that her case on Hockey is rock solid. The argument that I am making is that she is clearly digging into hockey, and the way you/HC are summarizing her posts is bull.

1) You focused on the RQS question, and ignored her calling him out over the the STD read

2)That is a good thing?? If he is pressed over a read, and the response is "don't pay attention to my reads" why would she not keep pushing?

3)Here she is asking him to define how he is coming to a scum read. You are also ignored the fact that she pushes him over his partner associations. Like the exact line of questioning that she puts towards Hockey here, is the same basis for your vote on him in 132, but then you completely skip over that aspect of the questioning.

4) I will concede the point about how Hockey would have perceived me; I was adversarial with his logic, which I can understand him taking to be that I thought he was scum.
But you ignore the part entirely, where she is also pressuring him over his scum read on her in that post.

5) Again, you are ignoring the thing that she is actually pressing him over, which is the stuff over his reads of Azeru and Pav.

[Zyla]

I think that Zyla has not done as good of a job summarizing her read as she could, but she is definitely pushing him over posts that she thinks are scummy.

70 into 87, pressing him over his STD read, and calling him out for trying to back off of it
She presses him over his read of me in 155 and 157
She presses him over his read of her in 207
And then she pushes him again in 720
And then again in 757

Okay, let's look deeper at these posts she thinks are scummy.

• HockeyFan mentions that an RQS question was asked and doesn't answer it -> "I find it interesting that you mention my question but don't actually respond to either of them" and "Ignoring is NAI, but mentioning it and not responding seemed a little off to me."
  
  
  I don't know how many fucks the rest of you give towards a player not answering a blatant RQS question, but I promise you your number is way too high.

In d1, how are we supposed to gather information? Random Questions seem as good a way as any, so isn't it better to answer them? And again, it's the fact that he interacted with the question but refused to answer.

[*]

Hockey makes a weak read -> Zyla points out it is weak -> Hockey acknowledges it was weak -> Zyla attacks Hockey for backing down from a read she herself pointed out was weak in the first place.

I'm confused on this one. Could you quote the posts in question?

[*]

Hockey says he didn't feel Luke was genuine in his first few posts -> Zyla attacks something that pretty much by definition is a subjective feeling, and adds that experienced scum would be less likely to defend their partner.

That was a genuine question, where does the line fall between not being genuine and cracking a joke? Are jokes inherently scummy?

While bussing is a thing, in a game with two scum it's incredibly important that the scum don't lose a member on Day 1, so this is an incredibly weak defense of Luke.

Of course they don't want to lose a member, but Luke would know that a page

1

vote wouldn't be important enough to warrant trying to defend their partner.

[*]

HockeyFan mentions that Lukewarm had thrown minor suspicion onto HockeyFan along with Cyrus, although most pressure had come from me -> Zyla points out that Lukewarm wasn't thinking that Hockeyfan was scummy.

That, of course, ignores the fact that Lukewarm had indeed been applying pressure to Hockey; Luke's 84/145/147/148/151/164 are certainly adversarial enough with regards to Hockeyfan that I have no problem whatsoever with Hockeyfan interpreting it as a minor attack on him.

At least to me, those seemed to be clearly engagement, not attacks or a scum push. I suppose I might not have looked at it from Hockey's viewpoint well enough though

The remaining posts all refer to things that were said after I read Zyla's ISO but I'll indulge you anyway.


[*]

Zyla attacks Hockey for a supposed scumslip in Hockey's very first post of the game.

I don't care about the RVS stage at all on page 2; I'm not gonna start caring on page 31. I can't analyze the rest of this post or 757 until I do the deep dive on HockeyFan.[/list]

All of that is weak as hell.

That seems like a personal problem to me. Everything is important on some level, and if I see something I missed earlier while looking at an ISO, I intend to bring it up.