In post 547, Kazyan wrote:Look, I'm sorry for sheeping, but for most of the game, every time I've posted an original thought, someone with like 14 years of Mafia experience has told me that the person I'm scumreading is just Like That and that they have a rock-solid track record to reading that exact person. If you want me to go back to saying wrong things instead of following the people who matter in the game, I'll do that.
Wow. Did not expect that reaction. Very bad reaction.
Now does scum admit to sheeping just like that? I probably will have iso you and analyze your interactions with everyone else.
It's best to read up on your OWN analysis because those people are always at a stake that they could be wrong.
And I know that for a fact, because I know for a fact I am town however people that scumread don't know that -- they think I am scum. But there are people who do townread me and do think I am town because of x and x
so you should do your own analysis on that because eventually you will either have to scumread me / townread me for x and x.
Like you are voting me right now which implies you want me out this game because you think it will progress the game. But I think other wise -- I AM defending my position as town to prove to you somehow I am town through text. So use my meta, iso, and etc to read upon me.
That's just the nature of how a social deduction game and why I love mafia so much. Now please, don't deflect the analysis as well.
"With grandpa in the game the postcount goes up and up and up and up...." - T3 | I have a GTKAS page now. Feel free to ask me questions here!
35: Just saying he's here
36: Votes Geraintm for a "confused" tone
79: Was going to RVS vote. Elorates a bunch. Is this the 'liar spewing entire alibi' tell?
90: joak
91: nothing
107: says Nixie is townslipping. Scum probably lets Nixie's comment slide? +town
116: setup speculation, +town
311: Asks for summaries
312: tooting own horn; trying to push the conversation back to geraintm. This is _town, unless the scumteam is GMo/{DGB, Enchant's slot, Dwlee}, in which it would make sense for GMo to try to push the conversation away from a scumbuddy
313
: Weird post. Looks like a town perspective slip, but it's worded in a way that feels rehearsed...but this is post 3 in a hyperpost chain, so it's almost definitely off-the-cuff.
314: Altslip commentary
315: Hellos
316: asking for scumcase on DGB from Jolyne?
317: Thinks someone is town; my eyes glazed over here so I don't think I'm seeing the implications properly.
Blah blah blah more hyperposting, but most of it doesn't matter. 323 shows some concern about resolving differences of perspective, which is interesting, but I think it's NAI
369
: Very reasonable explanation of a read that looks like it's not surface-level
Continues basically confusion up to post 537, and that's more or less where we are now.
Now that I'm not just grumping about fluffy posts, there doesn't appear to be anything scummy in this ISO. UNVOTE: GrandpaMo
I always pretend my reads are rock solid. Especially in the first 25 pages
You complain that I scumread you and you try to badger me to sheep Koba, that's a HELL NO and a HARD PASS.
Look this is pretty simple - your read of my slot is bad. So I am appealing to you to reconsider by asking that you listen to a player that not only is cleared, but has a good handle of how I play Town. You’re refusing because you think you are better at reading me. But you’re not, and therein lies the problem.
And I’m not asking you to sheep Koba generally btw. But to perhaps listen to what they have to say about my slot. This will progress better if you don’t give Scum cover to do what they want.
Okay, because I am somewhat bored and sleep is for the weak, I'm gonna look over GrandpaMo's ISO. I want to see every single instance of him actually giving a read, because the "lol I gave reads just ISO me dude" is annoying me and I want to see if I'm blind or not.
Spoiler: all of the reads he's given so far
In post 115, GrandpaMo wrote:Damn knowing that there is 2 maf alive -- this makes Nixie more town here due to townslipping.
In post 312, GrandpaMo wrote:i still kinda sacumread geraintm tho -- i feel like this slot has much scum equity that was overshadowed by other mafia focusing attention on other people.
In post 313, GrandpaMo wrote:wait forgot there was 2 maf -- that logic doesnt rlly make sense -- unless 1 mafia really motivated the pivot off geraintm and found a way to really fit in.
In post 192, Andresvmb wrote:How do you TMI your Scum Partner this early? And how is a typo (“mob” instead of “mod”) actually a clue for a Traitor in any reasonable context? What is this thought process?
ok i think this line of reasoning / questioning comes from a town perspective +town
In post 328, GrandpaMo wrote:but all seriousness, if you are taljking bout gerantim -- im still reading that slot. its more null / scum lean and that is because of the fact that there could be mafia between dgb and gerantim.
In post 359, GrandpaMo wrote:[That Ythan post I talked about earlier]
ok i think ur town for having this reaction.
In post 540, Kazyan wrote:I'll ISO you, GMo, to see if that stuff is true.
This is also feels like scum resending here after pushed with facts. You will look at my iso and realize the shitpush you just made lol.
The contents of the spoiler:
- Nixie is Town for Townslipping.
- geraintm was declared Scummy because of thread movement, only to then walk back on that read due to remembering there's only 2 Scum.
- Andres is Townie because of 192.
- Kyouko is Townie because of 200.
- geraintm is null/Scum due to there possibly being Scum between him and DGB. (?)
- Ythan is Town because of 354.
- And Scumreading Kazyan for 540 (and their bad read on him).
So, Nixie/Andres/Kyouko are Town because of extremely simple reasoning, Ythan is Town for very bad reasoning (see my 436). I'm assuming the Scum between geraintm/DGB stems from 320, which is questionable. And the Scumread on Kazyan is fine, though again, nothing spectacular.
At 464, when I ask him to present his thought process for us to read, he claims done it multiple times. At that point, I couldn't remember him actually going into anything (other than the Ythan read, which I'm sure you get by now that I hated), I thought maybe I skipped over stuff. Now I don't think I have.
Anyway, I find it Scummy that GrandpaMo's first reaction to people scumreading him is to complain how people are Scumreading him for bad reasons, surface level logic, he's not efforting yet, etc, but when you look at what analysis GrandpaMo has actually done in this game, it's... next to nothing. And when he actually gets asked to present the thoughts, it's "I have them in my ISO". Where?
As I am typing this, I am getting a bad gut feeling that this is a Townie who actually thinks they're being super Townie and acting accordingly, but uh. I don't think I can be playing this game on unfounded gut feelings when his ISO gives me a strong vibe of Scum not doing anything and drowning the thread in bloat.
Once again today begins this farce we call a trial.
Andre is over here arguing with people for not deferring to Jolyene, and GMo is arguing with me for the opposite. You two, work that out with each other.
In post 552, Kazyan wrote:Now that I'm not just grumping about fluffy posts, there doesn't appear to be anything scummy in this ISO. UNVOTE: GrandpaMo
I don’t understand why you’re backing away from a fight so easily.
And
there's
the double bind I predicted, kicking in right on schedule. Fantastic.
It’s not a double bind.
Look at DGB’s reaction when I confronted them about their read of my slot. Or Enchant’s for that matter. I’m not saying these slots are Town btw (DGB I would argue is probably Town, Enchant is null / Scum Lean to me, and in any case, I don’t think they’re both Scum who have decided to push my slot at the same time). But your reaction sticks out in that you have seemed not to really believe in any one push you’re making. I would even say that You are consistently downplaying your pushes / reads. GrandpaMo’s ISO is not great, as Nathann clearly pointed out. But you arrive at this conclusion that there’s nothing Scummy there and just Unvote. I don’t get it.
Now, onto Part 2... What the hell is Kazyan doing.
Kazyan's mentions of GrandpaMo, prior to this little spat, are: 46 (having a good point), 149 (gut scumlean), 478 (willing to yeet, no explanation), 525 (badposting). A pretty much consistent scumread, never any elaborate explanation given for it.
Looking at their ISO of GrandpaMo (552) - Why is giving a simple read on Nixie Townie? (Yes, I know you wrote a comment how Scum probably lets a comment like that slide, so I guess my question then is, do you expect scum to be doing nothing? Or, what's the line between something Scum would or wouldn't let slide? There's probably no correct answer to this, but I wanna see some sorta thought process here.) Why is setup speculation Townie?
Regarding you Townreading his 369, could you give me your opinion on the second paragraph of my 436?
And, probably the question I care about the most - why were you consistently Scumreading GrandpaMo in the first place? I don't care if you changed your mind in the meantime or whatnot, because this shift feels extremely weird. Maybe I'm biased in thinking that GrandpaMo isn't Townie, I could be. But I don't know if I find your current thought process regarding him to make any sense whatsoever.
Once again today begins this farce we call a trial.
In post 557, Kazyan wrote:Andre is over here arguing with people for not deferring to Jolyene, and GMo is arguing with me for the opposite. You two, work that out with each other.
I don’t have to work anything out with GrandpaMo - I haven’t even read their ISO just yet, though Nathann’s points seem reasonable to me (despite that hedge that it could be Town that believes their contributions so far merit a Town read). I do expect I’ll have to make up my own mind about the slot soon - GMo is seeing pressure and it’s definitely worthwhile to take a closer look.
In post 558, Andresvmb wrote:But your reaction sticks out in that you have seemed not to really believe in any one push you’re making.
Well, yeah. I've never once been able to catch scum without a truth wizard holding my hand, and am surrounded by people who keep pushing back against my reads with greater experience and evidence. To present my observations as anything more than "something to consider" would be arrogance, not good play.
I'll point out that I haven't technically read his ISO, I was just skimming for him giving reads and singling those instances out. I went over it two times, so I don't
think
I missed any, but I am working with some sleep deprivation so do yell at me if I'm wrong. I did not take in any of the other posts, but my post wasn't a commentary of his ISO as a whole anyway.
I wish I could present a definite answer, and I know hedging is generally frowned upon, but I'd be lying if I didn't point out that the thought did occur to me.
Once again today begins this farce we call a trial.
In post 107, Nixie wrote:Everyone, shush about the IC bs. It's a normal game, ICs have set rules and it has absolutely exactly nothing to do with anything. It's a mod confirm not some fake news. I didn't expect to have to explain why fox news is a bad news source to people on this website ffs.
Alice, dwlee, geraintm are the three scum. We can pack it up.
ger is engaging in an inane conversation with no relevance but originally framed it as having relevance. Alice is trying to make friends and shoot for cred off it which is text book scum stuff. Dwlee is just being dumb, probably not actually scum, but best guess so far.
Damn knowing that there is 2 maf alive -- this makes Nixie more town here due to townslipping.
In post 116, GrandpaMo wrote:2 mafia means two things, either mafia is very strong
91, 115, 116 and 311 are as bad a sequence as you’ll find in a game of Mafia. The “I’m bored” together with the “I’ll make a serious post later” to the “I’m lazy” is outright Scummy. Those posts alone merit a negative Lean. How you can read those and come out with the conclusion that there’s nothing Scummy in that ISO is beyond me.
And it’s not like this takes tremendous skill either. That’s just blatant fluff. If you don’t know how to present a point of view without giving yourself up as Scum, you often see stuff like that. Now, I’m not saying this is bulletproof or anything - I’ll keep reading. But I don’t like that you just backtracked on your read *after* having read that, and just failed to properly account for it.
And even if you’re wrong or don’t have a whole lot of confidence in your reads, putting them out there and your thought process is helpful. If only in that people can point out where you’re going wrong and you can have a genuine conversation.
In post 559, Nathann wrote:Now, onto Part 2... What the hell is Kazyan doing.
Kazyan's mentions of GrandpaMo, prior to this little spat, are: 46 (having a good point), 149 (gut scumlean), 478 (willing to yeet, no explanation), 525 (badposting). A pretty much consistent scumread, never any elaborate explanation given for it.
Looking at their ISO of GrandpaMo (552) - Why is giving a simple read on Nixie Townie? (Yes, I know you wrote a comment how Scum probably lets a comment like that slide, so I guess my question then is, do you expect scum to be doing nothing? Or, what's the line between something Scum would or wouldn't let slide? There's probably no correct answer to this, but I wanna see some sorta thought process here.) Why is setup speculation Townie?
Regarding you Townreading his 369, could you give me your opinion on the second paragraph of my 436?
And, probably the question I care about the most - why were you consistently Scumreading GrandpaMo in the first place? I don't care if you changed your mind in the meantime or whatnot, because this shift feels extremely weird. Maybe I'm biased in thinking that GrandpaMo isn't Townie, I could be. But I don't know if I find your current thought process regarding him to make any sense whatsoever.
Why were you consistently Scumreading GrandpaMo in the first place?
Fluffy posts. Short, snippy, "active lurking" without any particularly hot takes. Those are the kinds of things that make an impression on me when I'm not really paying attention.
Why is giving a simple read on Nixie Townie?
Town is looking for townslips and signal boosting them would be good. Declining to comment on something is really convenient because your silence doesn't show up in your ISO.
Do you expect scum to be doing nothing? Or, what's the line between something Scum would or wouldn't let slide?
This just felt incorrect for scum to do. If scum is compentent, they can fake this kind of thing, but if they're competent/WIFOMy, I'm not catching them anyway--so it's more helpful not to engage in WIFOM.
Why is setup speculation Townie?
I dunno; it just felt right for town to latch onto the new info and ascertain more about the scum that they're looking for.
Could you give me your opinion on the second paragraph of my 436?
I think it's circular, in describing the post as "confusing". You say the following: "
ecause the post was confusing and only Town would react with confusion on a confusing post is... No." This assumes that the confusingness of the post in question is self-evident, but GMo wouldn't think his own post was like that, because he's the one who made it and he understands his own thoughts.
In post 357, GrandpaMo wrote:looking back, i sounded so fucking scummy in that xD
This admission alone, together with the fake outrage about being SR after, should in most instances get you executed. This is almost transparently Scummy in my view. You get all offended that people might lean negatively on you, even though you admit to having been Scummy? What is happening?
In post 565, Andresvmb wrote:And it’s not like this takes tremendous skill either. That’s just blatant fluff. If you don’t know how to present a point of view without giving yourself up as Scum, you often see stuff like that. Now, I’m not saying this is bulletproof or anything - I’ll keep reading. But I don’t like that you just backtracked on your read *after* having read that, and just failed to properly account for it.
And even if you’re wrong or don’t have a whole lot of confidence in your reads, putting them out there and your thought process is helpful. If only in that people can point out where you’re going wrong and you can have a genuine conversation.
I didn't expect any content in the early ISO, because it was so early in the game, and not-quite-RVS posting could have come from anyone. We were early enough in the game that people like Pooky, unwnd, et al. are still passing out "HI *GLOMPS U*" kind of posts in other games, so I didn't think anything of it. My bad.
Why were you consistently Scumreading GrandpaMo in the first place?
Fluffy posts. Short, snippy, "active lurking" without any particularly hot takes. Those are the kinds of things that make an impression on me when I'm not really paying attention.
---
Could you give me your opinion on the second paragraph of my 436?
I think it's circular, in describing the post as "confusing". You say the following: "
ecause the post was confusing and only Town would react with confusion on a confusing post is... No." This assumes that the confusingness of the post in question is self-evident, but GMo wouldn't think his own post was like that, because he's the one who made it and he understands his own thoughts.
So, if you're not paying attention, those posts make you scumread a person, but when you reread, you found them NAI, did I get that right? Why do you no longer find it Scummy then?
And I'm not sure if you got what I'm saying here. Or maybe I don't get your reply. I know GrandpaMo wouldn't think of his own post like that. However, my issue is that he uses someone else's confusion at his post to Townread them. Ythan's reaction was basically "wtf", and GrandpaMo declared that reaction as Townie because "only town would react in a way where they thought the way i said was weird." I get the feeling there's something off about thinking that only Town would react with confusion at a confusing post.
Once again today begins this farce we call a trial.
In post 547, Kazyan wrote:Look, I'm sorry for sheeping, but for most of the game, every time I've posted an original thought, someone with like 14 years of Mafia experience has told me that the person I'm scumreading is just Like That and that they have a rock-solid track record to reading that exact person. If you want me to go back to saying wrong things instead of following the people who matter in the game, I'll do that.
Wow. Did not expect that reaction. Very bad reaction.
Now does scum admit to sheeping just like that? I probably will have iso you and analyze your interactions with everyone else.
It's best to read up on your OWN analysis because those people are always at a stake that they could be wrong.
And I know that for a fact, because I know for a fact I am town however people that scumread don't know that -- they think I am scum. But there are people who do townread me and do think I am town because of x and x
so you should do your own analysis on that because eventually you will either have to scumread me / townread me for x and x.
Like you are voting me right now which implies you want me out this game because you think it will progress the game. But I think other wise -- I AM defending my position as town to prove to you somehow I am town through text. So use my meta, iso, and etc to read upon me.
That's just the nature of how a social deduction game and why I love mafia so much. Now please, don't deflect the analysis as well.
VOTE: GrandpaMo
I read what Andres just quoted and I wanna sit my vote here but in spirit I'm still cool with murderizing enchant.
And now the more I stare at 369, the more I think that maybe,
maybe
GrandpaMo's reaction makes sense from Town because he's calling on a mindmeld. But Ythan's reaction is so plain and that is such an obvious confusing post, anyone could've called it out... Yeah, I'm gonna stop thinking about this for the night. This has somehow made me wanna yeet Ythan again.
Once again today begins this farce we call a trial.
In post 545, GrandpaMo wrote:I am just playing the best of my ability as town towards my wincon helping in any way possible
How can you say this when bashing someone SR’ing you, and at a different recent time, say you haven’t gone into your full effort mode? And yeah no shit you haven’t gone into full effort mode - there’s basically a few reads thrown out there, little evaluation, some really basic commentary about setup, some speculation about a rebel mechanic that I have no idea how Town would ever be aware of, even if it was true (and I suspect that given the reality that this is a Normal game, completely ludicrous), and some outrage at getting pushed. So no, you’re not playing to the best of your ability by your own admission, and certainly not by any objective standard.
