Open 823 - To Tell The Truth | Game Over

[imaginality]

no? If we get Player X and Player Y. and Player x's role is innocent, and they get a true result, they will be annouced as town. However, lets say we roll a 6 on the 1VX(number of mafia), Players Y's role will be announced as town even if they are mafia so we do we really have confirms? I could just be stupid

Wont X elimination confirms that Y result was untrue.

Elimination does reveal their rule faction isn't it?

My take on it is elimination doesn't fully confirm but could in some scenarios. Basically if X flips the opposite of their result it shows that they were the random one therefore the other result is reliable. But If X flips the same as their result you don't know much more about Y as X's result could have been reliable or random.

[imaginality]

It seems like it could be somewhat risky for scum to include scum in the investigation targets as there's a chance (1/3 chance right now but will vary depending on elims) that two guilties get returned and then we'd know at least one of the two is scum.

[imaginality]

D1 reveals the identity of two players - One of it is True and the other is false. Eliminate one and the other gets confirmed.

Nono, one is true, the other is

possibly

false
Specifically, the one we get tomorrow will have a 3/8 chance of rolling guilty, regardless of whether or not they are
(I'm assuming we can't do a no-lim because that would break this setup in a couple of nights)

2/8 if we elim scum.

[imaginality]

VOTE: arcangel

Wait wtf cyrus might be town?

VOTE: goates

T3 what are you doing and why are you like this. I dont understand the pattern of your votes

I know exactly what alignment cyrus is but we don't want to do anything with him yet

.

This last sentence makes me think T3 scum cyrus town.
T3, can you explain what you meant by that sentence?

P-edit: so do you think cyrus is town? Or scum?

So what part of what i said was scummy?.

I said earlier that post was mainly trying to discredit's peoples early reads(such as T3 scum, N_M town e.tc)

I agree with this, at best it seemed like a big post to say essentially nothing (except for the idea that eliminating one investigation target confirms the other, which definitely isn't true in most cases).

[imaginality]

so i think arc and t3 are scum together.

I have a better theory. I think you and hockey are scum together!

This seems omgussy?

Having mid meld together!! More reasons to believe that i might be right about both of your scum partnership!

I don't think a scum pairing would openly say they're mind melding? Seems more like something they wouldn't want to comment on.

Truth is when scum hunting I try to look for who isn't helping advanced the game and is just posting to post. Or is trying to seem townier then every one else.

This is a wrong tell.. there are plenty of town players who just lurk and play lousy. And i have seen more competent active players who outplay town players.

'not advancing the game' isn't the same as lurking (the latter is a subset of the former). Posts like your "it's too early!" #53 don't exactly advance the game either.

I think Cyrus's approach is a useful one especially early game.

[imaginality]

Won't say.

VOTE: T3

This 'I have a read but I won't tell you it yet' seems anti-town. Seems like keeping it unspoken means you can wait to see whether others lean cyrus:town or cyrus:scum so you can then say that's what your read was too.

[imaginality]

D1 reveals the identity of two players - One of it is True and the other is false. Eliminate one and the other gets confirmed.

Nono, one is true, the other is

possibly

false
Specifically, the one we get tomorrow will have a 3/8 chance of rolling guilty, regardless of whether or not they are
(I'm assuming we can't do a no-lim because that would break this setup in a couple of nights)

The special rules say 'plurality elimination mechanics' but the general rules say "Elimination - Eliminations will be by majority. If there is no majority by deadline, then there is No Elimination".

@mod do the special rules have priority?

[imaginality]

lol
cyrus is obvscum by meta
he usually townreads his partners for bad reasons early on
so I was waiting for him to out his partners

Not convinced. You could watch and wait without needing to make that earlier "I know what cyrus is but I'm not telling" post.

now i know t3 is scum trying to shade me early knowing im always a easy elimination.

If you "know" T3 is scum why aren't you voting him?

[imaginality]

Maybe we're all scum

Do you have a view on T3 and/or cyrus?

[imaginality]

itch ant must vest at in last long art top out wont next invest earth. so how is every one just dropping my anchor before game starts

wolf cause I can't read this post

use the 1st later of every word before i ask how everyone is doing

Why would you crumb VT? And why would you reveal it on page 5 d1?

To be fair, he crumbed the much rarer role,

Vailla

Townie.

[imaginality]

Maybe we're all scum

Do you have a view on T3 and/or cyrus?

[imaginality]

I just ISOd the mod twice ama

imaginality is outed fwiw he's the most scummy

Your radar is off.

Are you calling me scum based off a hunch (in which case, you're wrong but hey, you do you), or for perceived reasons (in which case, please share)?

[imaginality]

Those are two different scenarios.
T3 wasn't scum reading cyrus, just saying "I know what he is" without saying which alignment or why.
Since my post, he's clarified it's a scum read and voted cyrus. But would he have clarified that if he hadn't been pushed on that point?

Cyrus was scum reading T3 and saying why, but not voting him. Not voting a scum read is suspicious at first glance, but I want to hear from cyrus before voting him for it.

Cyrus hasn't replied yet. T3 had replied ("won't say") when I voted him.

[imaginality]

Won't say.

VOTE: T3

This 'I have a read but I won't tell you it yet' seems anti-town. Seems like keeping it unspoken means you can wait to see whether others lean cyrus:town or cyrus:scum so you can then say that's what your read was too.

This feels like a highly speculative post that essentially boils down to "T3 is being scummy if they are in the majority"
It doesn't feel like something a townie would push.

For me if I think "cyrus is scum and will make it obvious who his scumbuddies are if we watch and wait" I'd watch and wait, not say 'ooh I know cyrus's alignment but I'm not telling'. Seems like it offers no value to town to say that at that point but does offer some fence-sitting value to scum.

[imaginality]

I just ISOd the mod twice ama

imaginality is outed fwiw he's the most scummy

Your radar is off.

Are you calling me scum based off a hunch (in which case, you're wrong but hey, you do you), or for perceived reasons (in which case, please share)?

this post is really scummy I think

the way imaginality treats me is with no scepticism. I'd expect some considering I just called him a wolf and his top scum read town

I'm sceptical about your read on me!

I don't have strong reads at this point, it's not like I think T3 is lockscum. His recent posts don't bother me so much. If I wasn't voting him I'd be voting ArcAngel most likely, also for somewhat weak reasons (the early chainsawing post and a sense she's been happy to go under the radar somewhat since then). Or mega for reasons below.

Sure, you might be scum but I see you as more likely town drawing wrong conclusions. I don't see you disagreeing on reads at this stage as scummy in and of itself. You seem to be trying to figure stuff out and make stuff happen compared to fake reasoning and gliding.

I'm more suspicious of Mega for only turning up and voting me after seeing others attacking me. Seems like he's jumping on me for convenience seeing me as a safe target to scum read.

[imaginality]

Here's what Mega said about me:

VOTE: imaginality

Their interactions with T3 give off a weird vibe to me.

Hunch, no analysis.

Won't say.

VOTE: T3

This 'I have a read but I won't tell you it yet' seems anti-town. Seems like keeping it unspoken means you can wait to see whether others lean cyrus:town or cyrus:scum so you can then say that's what your read was too.

This feels like a highly speculative post that

essentially boils down to "T3 is being scummy if they are in the majority"

It doesn't feel like something a townie would push.

Bolded is a complete misrepresentation of my point.

... And that's all.
So...

Meg town I think.

Wait, I just saw this, can you elaborate k ty

Good analysis of imaginality and I don't think they are s/s.

Where is this 'good analysis' you speak of? Choosing such a flimsy reason to call T3 town makes me wonder if you're trying to shift attention away from him. Are you buddies?

[imaginality]

EBWOP: Flimsy reason to call Mega town.
Okay I got confused who was who there.
My point about it being flimsy analysis still stands though.

[imaginality]

I'd be relentlessly bussing cyrus if I were scum here

Cyrus is making quite a bit more sense this game than he did in Owner's Market Blitz, D1 at least.

[imaginality]

I haven't played with Not_Mafia before, is quick-hammering something he does every day or just D1?

[imaginality]

Meg town I think.

Meg, thoughts on cyrus?

Good analysis of imaginality and I don't think they are s/s.

I would like thoughts on these posts, as they partain to T3's alignment, and his partner equity (high or low) with Meg

I can see T3 and Meg as possible buddies, that second post is the sort of scum buddy in-game chat I've seen. (though I don't know if that happens so much in games with daytalk?)

Obviously I disagree with the 'good analysis' of imaginality, for reasons I already stated in D1, so it seems odd to me T3 is calling Meg town for that.

I'd say scum who are in danger of being eliminated (as T3 was) are less likely look to call other people town rather than looking for reasons to add suspicion to others. Which would be a small point towards Meg perhaps being scum if T3 is.

[imaginality]

I haven't played with Not_Mafia before, is quick-hammering something he does every day or just D1?

Why do you ask?

Because an early quick-hammer shortens discussion which is usually a bad thing (gives us less info to go on on the next day) so if he's still likely to quickhammer I'd want to be surer of my read if I'm putting someone to E-1 early today, compared with if he only plays like that D1.

[imaginality]

It seems like it could be somewhat risky for scum to include scum in the investigation targets as there's a chance (1/3 chance right now but will vary depending on elims) that two guilties get returned and then we'd know at least one of the two is scum.

This post is relevant

I agree with my past self but it is worth noting that since we mis-eliminated cyrus D1, scum have more leeway to take risky actions compared to if we'd eliminated Scum D1. They can afford to risk sacrificing someone.

Reviewing the results today, the scenarios I'm trying to fit each result

and

non-result into are:

1. Is this person town and scum were hoping for a guilty on them to make a mis-elim more likely?
2. Is this person scum and scum were hoping for an inno on them to protect them from elimination?
3. Is this person town and scum

chose not to

target them because they didn't want them to return an inno (and move closer to being conftown) ?
4. Is this person scum and scum

chose not to

target them because they didn't want them to return a guilty (and move closer to being confscum)?
5. Wifom confusion random who knows-ness

To an extent this does just boil down to, 'is this person town or scum?' so maybe this is over thinking it. But for example, if ArcAngel hadn't returned an inno today I was planning to vote her for her vote on the cyrus wagon. So I feel like scum could have included her as a target, to sacrifice her if she returned guilty or protect her if she returned inno.

I do take your point, goats, that on baseline stats, both ArcAngel and Not_Mafia are more likely than not to be town. (I think baseline is each of them is about 82% likely to be town). I don't think we should be targeting either of them today.

[imaginality]

I think I still prefer a T3 vote. Didn't like the way the pressure shifted away from T3 to cyrus yesterday, so I feel like if T3 is scum there's scum on the cyrus wagon (aside from T3 and cyrus, that was Zyla, ArcAngel and Not_Mafia).

With Meg I could go along with a wagon but I'd rather see more from him first. I'm wary I'm overreacting to the bad case he made on me. I'll have time to reread this evening - I want to look at others too.

For example, I didn't like this from HockeyFan:

goats
@Megazumarill
@imaginality
@HockeyFan

Im not gonna really do this even

if

you're town because you didnt look town at all. I probs look more into zyla, but I think the other people who voted you could be town, also cryus why did u self hammer lol

HockeyFan, why did you say you'd look into Zyla - what makes Zyla less likely to be town than the others on the cyrus wagon?

[imaginality]

On my re-read I found Zyla and find her posts about cyrus/T3 interesting. Especially cyrus. I'd previously had a vague town-lean on her but when I did a deeper read this is what I noticed:

Spoiler: Zyla's vote on cyrus

VOTE: Cyrus.
Anyone can read that, and there's only vanilla roles any way, there's no point in it even if it were some master code

A weak reason to vote cyrus. That's absolutely fair enough, since it was early on D1. What's of note is that her vote never moves after this. So if Zyla's town, either she found stronger reasons to keep her vote on cyrus (if so, what?) or she never had any better reason to vote anyone else?

Spoiler: asking why Hockey thought cyrus could be town

VOTE: arcangel

Wait wtf cyrus might be town?

What about this vote makes him towny?

Hockey answered Zyla, saying it was because cyrus scumread ArcAngel. Zyla said:

Oh yeah. I don't think I've ever actually managed to hit scum first time so I forgot it was possible xD

Can't quite pin down why but something about this post gives me a gut feel that Zyla knows ArcAngel's alignment one way or another.

Spoiler: meta posts

N_M, why are u doing this to me smfh, pls dont claim scum when I tr u

It's Not_Mafia, this is just how they play.
Honestly, it's pretty frustrating

In response to NM asking why cyrus crumbed VT:

It's Cyrus

If Zyla was voting cyrus for the crumbing (ie basically for his play style), why cyrus and not NM whose playstyle she describes as 'pretty frustrating'? This makes me doubt the genuineness of the continued cyrus vote.

Spoiler: on cyrus's comments about ArcAngel

discrediting everyone here aka chainsawing.and whiteknighting.

I don't know what chainsawing is, but WKing is defending people, and "too early to call them scum" is way to weak a defense to call it that.
Angel's post was scummy to me, but that's because she was dismissing Hockey and your (Cyrus) reads rather than trying to

discuss

them, not because she was 'whiteknighting'

Zyla's calling Angel scummy but criticising cyrus for how he made the same point. This leads to a discussion of semantics:

so you think arc is scum too?

I find her post to be suspicious, yes
But atm I'm interested in what your definitions of those terms are

I find it suspicious that Zyla was focusing on the semantics rather than either: looking for substantive reasons to either confirm her read on cyrus or clear him, or looking at other players to see if she could find a stronger scumread.

When cyrus answered Zyla in post 202, Zyla didn't respond to him. Was this desire for clarification just an excuse to continue to keep her vote on him?

Spoiler: T3 worried about getting eliminated

Can we please take me off NM-1.
I'm slightly paranoid

You've got 44 hours, I'd suggest giving us a reason to vote someone else, not focusing on yourself.

Also, if anyone's confused, NM likes to quickhammer, so E1 is effectively a hammer in a game he's in

Feels like Zyla either saw T3 as scummy or didn't care whether he was eliminated or not. If the latter, that's suspicious (especially if T3 turns out to be town). If the former, why didn't she voice any suspicions of him earlier?

An alternate take on the "I'd suggest giving us a reason to vote someone else" is scum coaching, which perhaps is boosted by the fact she says that even though her vote isn't on him. This might be a stretch but at the very least I don't think a Zyla scum flip would make T3 any more likely to be town.

When T3 does offer an alternative:

cyrus, vote him by meta.

Not really sure what meta you're meaning tbh

Again this sort of feels to me like Zyla not really caring about which one of T3 or cyrus gets eliminated. Considering her vote was on cyrus at the time this is a pretty lukewarm response to T3.

Spoiler: In response for cyrus asking Zyla to unvote him

I'm good where I am for now, you're one of my top suspects so I don't mind if you get eliminated

Zyla, what was it that made cyrus "one of your top suspects"? Aside from cyrus and ArcAngel, did you have other "top suspects" at that time? Was T3 one of your top suspects at the time of post 200?

Do you have any town reads?

Vote: Zyla

I think some of these points need answering.

[imaginality]

goats
@Megazumarill
@imaginality
@HockeyFan

Im not gonna really do this even

if

you're town because you didnt look town at all. I probs look more into zyla, but

I think the other people who voted you could be town

, also cryus why did u self hammer lol

HockeyFan, why did you say you'd look into Zyla - what makes Zyla less likely to be town than the others on the cyrus wagon?

HockeyFan can you go over a readlist with your reasonings for your reads, I'm seeing a lot of strong reads and I don't really see where they are coming from.

Also, regarding 256, there were 5 people on the vote.

Goats(who i trd), t3(who i trd),

Arc(who i srd at the time)

, cyrus and zyla(someone i didnt really have a read on), so thats why i said what i said

Explain how these can both be true, because it looks like an obvious contradiction to me.

[imaginality]

This set-up reveals one true and one random result each day. The random result has the same chance of returning a guilty as picking any player at random would (37.5% last night since there were 3 scum alive from 8 players total).

So from your "I know I'm town" pov, NM could be either town or scum - the NM result gives no information to you. For the rest of us, we know you and NM definitely aren't scum-buddies but it's still possible for either of you to be scum.

[imaginality]

Anyone want to join me on a Zyla wagon? Or at least give their views on my Zyla case?

Literally everyone has posted since then and no one's directly commented on it.

[imaginality]

Then we should eliminate the opportunist scum Hockey!

What's your reason for calling Hockey opportunist?

[imaginality]

So if Zyla's town, either she found stronger reasons to keep her vote on cyrus (if so, what?) or she never had any better reason to vote anyone else?

The second one is correct

The idea that you placed a very early vote on cyrus for an extremely weak reason and didn't find any better reason to vote anyone else (or even a better reason to confirm your vote on cyrus) for the rest of the day doesn't sit well with the idea that you're town trying to solve the game.

I'm confused to what those two posts have to do with each other at all

Yeah, I think I got mixed up here - looked like you were replying to HockeyFan when I reread in iso but you were actually replying to my post. Point withdrawn.

If Zyla was voting cyrus for the crumbing (ie basically for his play style), why cyrus and not NM whose playstyle she describes as 'pretty frustrating'? This makes me doubt the genuineness of the continued cyrus vote.

I do find Cyrus to be frustrating, but whether or not NM is frustrating to play with, I've also heard good things about NM's scumhunting ability, whereas the games I've been in Cyrus have not given me the same trust in his abilities. So

if my vote were based on who I didn't want to play with

, of those two it wouldn't be NM

Wasn't that what your vote actually was based on? I.e. cyrus being cyrus. This bolded line gives me the sense your vote on cyrus was for other reasons (such as cyrus being an easier mis-elim for scum to push).

Also if you're scum then the fact you see NM as good at scum hunting gives additional motivation to not vote him, i.e. to not draw his attention onto you...

I find it suspicious that Zyla was focusing on the semantics rather than either: looking for substantive reasons to either confirm her read on cyrus or clear him, or looking at other players to see if she could find a stronger scumread.

When cyrus answered Zyla in post 202, Zyla didn't respond to him. Was this desire for clarification just an excuse to continue to keep her vote on him?

I was partially focusing on the exact word choice, yes, it seemed a little buzzy, especially since I didn't agree that it was strong enough for the words to be accurate. I touched on this lightly in 183

This doesn't really address my points:
a. That you were focused on semantics rather than on substance
b. That while you used this to keep your vote on cyrus, you didn't respond to cyrus's 202

Feels like Zyla either saw T3 as scummy or didn't care whether he was eliminated or not. If the latter, that's suspicious (especially if T3 turns out to be town). If the former, why didn't she voice any suspicions of him earlier?

An alternate take on the "I'd suggest giving us a reason to vote someone else" is scum coaching, which perhaps is boosted by the fact she says that even though her vote isn't on him. This might be a stretch but at the very least I don't think a Zyla scum flip would make T3 any more likely to be town.

When T3 does offer an alternative:

cyrus, vote him by meta.

Not really sure what meta you're meaning tbh

Again this sort of feels to me like Zyla not really caring about which one of T3 or cyrus gets eliminated. Considering her vote was on cyrus at the time this is a pretty lukewarm response to T3.

I mean, I preferred Cyrus as the one to get eliminated, but T3 wasn't looking particularly towny to me, so I would've been fine with him too, yes.

'wasn't looking particularly towny'? That sounds very lukewarm when you said (below) he was one of your 'major suspicions'.

As far as 'scumcoaching', if I were a scum partner, why would I say this in the main thread instead of the mafia thread, that just seems illogical to me.

If scum only chat in their day thread that makes them easy to spot so they have to have some main thread interactions too. Like I say, though, this line of thought isn't an additional reason to think you're scum. More just noting that if you are scum it's very compatible with T3 also being scum.

I'm good where I am for now, you're one of my top suspects so I don't mind if you get eliminated

Zyla, what was it that made cyrus "one of your top suspects"? Aside from cyrus and ArcAngel, did you have other "top suspects" at that time? Was T3 one of your top suspects at the time of post 200?

Do you have any town reads?

T3 was my other major suspicion. As for town reads, Hockey is looking towny to me, mostly by meta from our previous game.

"your other major suspicion" was someone who you literally didn't mention until post 200 and even then you didn't give any reasons for suspecting him, just asked him to make a case on someone else?



TLDR:
I really don't get the sense that you've been trying to solve this game at all. My vote's staying on you.

[imaginality]

I don't care about finding scum, I just want to know why Cyrus crumbed VT

Hey Not_Mafia, I've never played with you. When can we expect you to start doing something useful? Zyla says you're a good scumhunter - who are your scum reads at this point and why?

[imaginality]

Arc Zyla and me?

The Arc you called locktown D1 and only voted today due to you misunderstanding the setup, the Zyla who 12 hours ago you said is sounding townie, and the me who you haven't pushed at all, just said someone else's analysis of me was good (but not good enough to tempt you to vote me, mind you)?

As it happens I think Zyla is likely scum and I think there's a decent chance Arc might be, but I don't believe you genuinely suspect any of us.

vote: T3

[imaginality]

Goats, to address your points against me:

I just ISOd the mod twice ama

imaginality is outed fwiw he's the most scummy

Your radar is off.

Are you calling me scum based off a hunch (in which case, you're wrong but hey, you do you), or for perceived reasons (in which case, please share)?

Won't say.

VOTE: T3

This 'I have a read but I won't tell you it yet' seems anti-town. Seems like keeping it unspoken means you can wait to see whether others lean cyrus:town or cyrus:scum so you can then say that's what your read was too.

This feels like a highly speculative post that essentially boils down to "T3 is being scummy if they are in the majority"
It doesn't feel like something a townie would push.

For me if I think "cyrus is scum and will make it obvious who his scumbuddies are if we watch and wait" I'd watch and wait, not say 'ooh I know cyrus's alignment but I'm not telling'. Seems like it offers no value to town to say that at that point but does offer some fence-sitting value to scum.

Look at the differences tonally and I'm approach in these responses to being wolf read

Difference in tone is because Meg gave a reason I could engage with whereas you didn't, you just called me scum.

I just ISOd the mod twice ama

imaginality is outed fwiw he's the most scummy

Your radar is off.

Are you calling me scum based off a hunch (in which case, you're wrong but hey, you do you), or for perceived reasons (in which case, please share)?

this post is really scummy I think

the way imaginality treats me is with no scepticism. I'd expect some considering I just called him a wolf and his top scum read town

I'm sceptical about your read on me!

I don't have strong reads at this point, it's not like I think T3 is lockscum. His recent posts don't bother me so much. If I wasn't voting him I'd be voting ArcAngel most likely, also for somewhat weak reasons (the early chainsawing post and a sense she's been happy to go under the radar somewhat since then). Or mega for reasons below.

Sure, you might be scum but I see you as more likely town drawing wrong conclusions. I don't see you disagreeing on reads at this stage as scummy in and of itself. You seem to be trying to figure stuff out and make stuff happen compared to fake reasoning and gliding.

I'm more suspicious of Mega for only turning up and voting me after seeing others attacking me. Seems like he's jumping on me for convenience seeing me as a safe target to scum read.

Here's what Mega said about me:

VOTE: imaginality

Their interactions with T3 give off a weird vibe to me.

Hunch, no analysis.

Won't say.

VOTE: T3

This 'I have a read but I won't tell you it yet' seems anti-town. Seems like keeping it unspoken means you can wait to see whether others lean cyrus:town or cyrus:scum so you can then say that's what your read was too.

This feels like a highly speculative post that

essentially boils down to "T3 is being scummy if they are in the majority"

It doesn't feel like something a townie would push.

Bolded is a complete misrepresentation of my point.

... And that's all.
So...

Meg town I think.

Wait, I just saw this, can you elaborate k ty

Good analysis of imaginality and I don't think they are s/s.

Where is this 'good analysis' you speak of? Choosing such a flimsy reason to call T3 town makes me wonder if you're trying to shift attention away from him. Are you buddies?

meh read on Meg, directing negative attention from Meg towards others in the form of criticizing the town reads etc

T3 was my main scumread D1, pointing out a reason to suspect him is hardly 'directing negative attention from Meg' (not sure if there was negative attention on Meg at that time anyhow?). I wasn't saying T3 scum Meg town, I was calling them scumbuddies.

first post is a continuation of moving off Meg for meh reasons, and a decently strong push on zyla likely comes from wolf imaginality if a wolf partner has chances of dying

Wanting more content from someone to lock in a read isn't the same as moving off them. My interactions with NM are also just trying to get a read on him which I'm finding hard to do.



On Meg's post:
Meg putting Arc and Zyla at the bottom of his list could mean he's partnered with them since I don't think he's able to drive an elimination so it's more likely intended to throw us off if he flips scum.

On Zyla:
Why do you read her as town? What am I missing in my case on her?

[imaginality]

This sentence in the above:

"My interactions with NM are also just trying to get a read on him which I'm finding hard to do."

Was in response to:
"Why does Imaginality interact with NM so much?"

Your other points on me seem based on assuming I'm scum and looking for interactions, so I don't feel like I need to comment on those since I know the premise is wrong. Whereas the above points are more about me directly.

[imaginality]

I'm not so sure about Arc tbh, some of her confusion about the setup seems almost put on to me

zyla is town for this post don't need anything else tbh

That seems pretty superficial of you contrasted with your other reads. I could see that post coming from town Zyla or scum Zyla. In isolation it reads town but there's the context of her other posts to consider.

[imaginality]

Ugh, now I'm second guessing myself. Zyla's latest reply to me seems reasonable. But then again she seems like someone who can make good posts and wouldn't panic under pressure.

I can see {Zyla, T3, Meg} as a possibility if Zyla is scum. Or {Zyla, Hockey, Meg} with the two of them deciding to both bus Meg now? I feel like with scum in the lead on the eliminations we have to look out for them bussing for cred.

{T3, Arc,?} is also looking plausible with how Arc subtly defends T3 D1 and their confusion D2 about the results which could be faked (as someone mentioned).

If Meg is town I think Hockey's vote here looks a little opportunist (Arc would you agree? You called hockey opportunist earlier, do you think the vote here is aaso?)
sInce it comes after goats and Zyla expressed suspicion of Meg without voting him (so Hockey already knew there's some buy in for his vote).

I feel like scum targeted NM just so we'd be stuck with him since he's deadweight. Would love to be proven wrong.

[imaginality]

Null:
{T3, NM} T3 plays too chaotically for me to go through the headache of me figuring them out. After trying I'd put them as a townlean since they seem to be contributing positively. N_M has basically trolled the entire game but I figure that's par for the course and NAI.

{ Zyla, Arcangel} ArcAngel seems too be really confused about mechanics that have been clarified on more than one occasion, and they don't seem to be scumhunting very much. Zyla has only interacted with the Arc slot for most of the game and with cyrus. They also have chosen to disclude any game advancing content for most of their posts.

Meg: your reason for suspecting ArcAngel seems to apply to T3 too (e.g. 269 and 272 both come before this post of yours), so why is T3 only null/townlean in your read? Whereas Arc gets called scummy for it?

[imaginality]

T3, any response to why Arc is scummy enough to override the night result?
As Hockey pointed out, you seemed to be pretty interested in mechanics day 1, but now you seem to be going against them

Come join me on a T3 wagon?

[imaginality]

@mod: can we get an extension to give Meg's replacement time to contribute to the day?

[imaginality]

t3 is probably town, Arc has fallen decently sharply in my reads

Just to confirm, "fallen" means your read on her has shifted scumwards?

[imaginality]

why do we not have a hammer yet literally no one of posting

I was waiting for Kop to post, probably others are too?

On others:
I actually see Arc's point a bit, in the Arc-Hockey stoush. Not about omgus being a town tell, but I do have a sense that Hockey might be looking for convenient reads. I need to do a decent reread on this though, I don't think he should be today's elim.

It's quite possible Arc-Hockey are both scum, mind you. And that their current cross voting is an act.

Zyla, I feel I have a good case there but it's not gained any traction. Same with T3.
I think there is one scum among {Arc, Zyla, NM} and two among {T3, Kop, Hockey}. Taking interactions into account I'd say {Arc, Hockey} and {T3, Zyla} both seem plausible pairings, with Kop as possible third scum in each case.

As mentioned I don't think Hockey is the right pick for today. So I think actually the logical vote today is:

VOTE: Kop

[imaginality]

Not_Mafia:

there's less than 48 hours til deadline. Do you care who we eliminate? If so can you share your reads now while there's time for it to influence the rest of us?

[imaginality]

If we eliminate wrong here we lose so I suggest everyone who's not goats/Kop declare which way they're

planning

to vote, before we actually do vote just in case we're missing something. Don't want to rush on and give scum a chance to quick hammer.

That said, I myself don't see scenarios where goat is scum and Meg-Kop town with the way they've played this game. I'm planning to vote Kop.

The way Hockey went down D2 was ridiculous but should help point to who Kop's partners are if he flips scum.

[imaginality]

T3 can you unvote Kop for now?

[imaginality]

Kop: who do you think goats's scum buddies are?

[imaginality]

Kop: who do you think goats's scum buddies are?

I am going to assume that you're trying to play out the day because it is lylo and you're hoping a towny happens to misvote at some point down the line

Don't. It's lylo. The wolf is obvious. End it. If you're town, ending it is to your benefit.

I don't think anyone is voting anyone other than Kop today. I still want to hear from Kop before we eliminate him though.

[imaginality]

We have more than enough time to discussion tomorrow, it won't be lylo tomorrow.

Oh true, in my head I was thinking we're stuck in x-lo throughout now but you're right, a Kop scum flip means we get two more days minimum.

[imaginality]

Kop: who do you think goats's scum buddies are?

I am going to assume that you're trying to play out the day because it is lylo and you're hoping a towny happens to misvote at some point down the line

Don't. It's lylo. The wolf is obvious. End it. If you're town, ending it is to your benefit.

It's obviously obvious to you because assuming you're town, Kop is 100% guaranteed scum by the night result.
It's like... 85% Kop scum 15% you from my point of view. I've liked your play nearly all game but I am aware you're smart and smart scum can play the long game. And I really don't like being pressured to quick vote.

Also I had these reasons for drawing things out a little:

I don't think anyone is voting anyone other than Kop today. I still want to hear from Kop before we eliminate him though.

What do you need to hear from an outed wolf? Do you think you will get anything of value? Like, this statements contradict each other

If no one is voting anyone but Kop, what Kop going to do? Fight? No. He's not going to give more spew

I was waiting for two reasons:

1. I thought there was a chance Kop would try to counter argue and whatever he said could have helped give additional clues as to who his buddies are.

2. I thought there was a good chance his buddies would bus him hard and early so I was seeing if someone else would swoop in and vote him to try to get extra cred for it.

It doesn't look like the first is happening, but it was worth a shot. As for the second, just T3 leapt on it so far. So I'm intrigued that you're reading him as town. I think he's more likely to be one of the remaining scum (who I think were both on the cyrus and Hockey wagons - ie. two of {Zyla, Arc, NM, T3}.

And besides this, I thought people weren't going to vote Hockey yesterday

I was wrong on that, I guess, and he died

I'd rather us not lose like that

I've played games where I rushed to vote what I felt was a sure thing in xlo and lost for town because of that. I don't want to do the same here.

[imaginality]

Ooh, I was making an assumption there and should increase those odds on both of you slightly. It's not either-or... there's a chance you're scumbuddies...

[imaginality]

My take on all this is... Goats is scum.

I was thinking about this point during the night: Goats is definitely confident enough to have put up a scum-scum target N2, sacrificing Kop to protect their other scumbuddy from having to be targeted. (Note that, I believe, this implies their other scumbuddy is T3 or Zyla.)

And looking at the targets this morning, goats-scum still makes sense to me. There was a 1/6 chance of me returning a guilty, so the guilty-guilty scenario (which would likely have seen me elimmed then goat the next day) was pretty unlikely. Whereas the 1/3 chance of goats getting a random inno would look great for them being able to coast to endgame.

Meanwhile in the 1/2 chance of a goats guilty, me inno result, I think goats is so townread they could argue away a guilty on them as being a random guilty. If that had been the result, they'd also have to call me conftown but they'd be okay with that since I've only townread them all game. They'd probably see me as likely to vote anyone else ahead of them in any x-lo 1v1 scenario.

In this goats-scum scenario, think if Zyla or T3 were targeted (whichever is scum) and returned a guilty they'd be under a lot of pressure. And I think they didn't want to target whoever is town among those two because they need to keep that person as a good mis-elim since they can only mis-elim one of Arc-NM at most. And there'd be a 5/6 chance of an inno on that person.

Ultimately, I just have a strong hunch that scum this game is being smart and bussing Kop in a town-scum target pairing seems too obvious. (while hoping to save Kop with an inno would be dumb.)

Going with a scum-scum pairing, that's sneaky.

Okay, so I'm making a hard case pushing for goats here. What if I'm wrong about goats? In that case, while T3 and Zyla is possible as a pairing, I don't think Zyla votes T3 today or gives me townpoints. And in that scenario, {Arc, NM} are town and I'd think scum try harder to get one of the two town innos (Arc and NM) mis-eliminated earlier, and also likely target them rather than goats and me.

So if I'm wrong about goats being scum, I am pretty sure it's one of {Zyla, T3} and one of {Arc, NM}.

[imaginality]

I was going to instant vote this anyways, actually smart of wolves to put both of us in the checks, but there is now a guarantee of 1 wolf between myself and Kop even without the vote. I will case every single wolf in this game, as I have been, if any townies have doubt, but how this day realistically should play out is simply hammering Kop as soon as what... 4 people show up into thread?

As I mentioned this attempt to rush the day is bad, like, even aside from the points I made yesterday, for the sake of argument if Kop was 100% known scum you could still use some time to dig into whoever you saw as his potential scumbuddies.

At least... this... ridiculous read is pretty towny cause every wolf is ready to bus Kop cause LMAO

Projection.

Was this literally just done to troll me by doing my top 2 townreads

are you actually town reading Kop? Are you really? Have you read his posts? Have you read his predecessors posts?

if you're town, Imaginality, I'll re-consider you tomorrow

I obviously dislike the Hockey wagon, but

I also believe that wolves would be more interested in bussing Kop than to stack 3 people onto Hockey

I'll think about it

But I'm alright proceeding this with a NM, maybe Arc, elim. I'd need to consider Zyla, I haven't read their progression on the Hocket vote, and I disliked their lack of engagement with what I cased before

The bolded seems like something town wouldn't say, my gut says this is more likely coming from scum trying to keep town onside.

The italicised part is more projection.

The rest of this post is literally calling everyone scum but T3.

Scum goats has no reason to locktown me so early.

Scum goats who knows they're super hard to eliminate and who holds quite a bit of sway in the discussions, has reason to locktown you if you're their buddy. I don't think scum can risk their buddy getting eliminated now they're down to 2.

I consider this post a town slip btw

"Oh wait it's elo"

So I'm still town reading T3

This is an extremely weak reason for a town read.

my strongest wolf read is still imaginality

More on this tomorrow (NZ time).

I'm going to back myself with this goats-T3 read. This feels like the last game I was in (Owner's Market Blitz) - that game the watcher guilty smelt fake. This time the 'only one scum in {goats, Kop} assumption' smells fake.

VOTE: goats

[imaginality]

Some brief points from my goats iso:

#127 interesting the first time goats starts expressing suspicion of me is when I'm pressing T3 on something
#241-242 says maybe they should rescind their townread on T3 then 'eh let me think about it', could be trying to walk the line of not getting tied to T3 while also not giving town reasons to wagon T3
#253 calls my posts towny
#313 is trying to tie me to Meg which makes sense if they were already planning to bus Meg
#316 could be trying to tie me to NM (if goats is scum and T3 isn't scum, NM is the likeliest other scummbuddy for goats)
#361 calls T3 prob town
#408 this reads a tad exaggerated for effect, also reinforces my thought above that if it's not goats-T3 it's goats-NM
#411 criticism of T3 here looks like distancing
#419 I ask T3 a question but goats jumps in and answers for him

Overall I think this fits with my theory. I wasn't expecting to find anything super damning because goats is a good player, but there is enough here for me to feel I'm on the right track.

[imaginality]

Btw imaginality you're probably who played the best, if a wolf, out of anyone else in this game

unfortunately my slot randed town though

Right back at you. Super strong wolf play and I was definitely fooled into reading you as town earlier.

But come on. Acting like this is a foregone conclusion might win you rhetoric points, but it's just an attempt to get town to fall along with you. Stay cool and hope to ride through with your towny aura.

For all your seeming pro-town play making the right sorts of posts and noises, though, cyrus got eliminated and Hockey got eliminated. You weren't on those wagons but neither was I and you think I'm scum so clearly that's not proof of anything.

That leaves Kop where you piled in early and tried (and pretty much succeeded) to cut off the day without good town play or scum bussing? And it's not like I was trying to get someone else eliminated, I'd already said I'd be voting Kop.

Your speculations about who my buddy is will be useful to review when you flip scum so thanks for those.

@others what do you think of my reasoning for why goats is scum?

Saying this now: If I get elimmed, when I flip town, please reread my points and don't let goats continue to have an easy ride.

[imaginality]

I can explain why pretty much everything else you said is wrong but I'm getting bored now. Suffice to say, you're fully in the wrong, and you're not going to convince anyone. If you don't want to die you can present an actually reasonable solve

"Target someone else and I'll give you an easier ride."

No, thanks. Happy with this right here.

[imaginality]

ftr I find the willingness to dome both from T3 and Zyla towny

Dome?

[imaginality]

"As I mentioned this attempt to rush the day is bad, like, even aside from the points I made yesterday, for the sake of argument if Kop was 100% known scum you could still use some time to dig into whoever you saw as his potential scumbuddies."

Honestly, this point is kinda a fucking joke too btw. If you are town and expecting that Kop was gonna give anything useful, you're so far off the mark I don't know what to tell you. But hey like I said if you're a wolf then okay

Pretty sure other people than Kop were allowed to talk yesterday. Seeing who did and didn't comment on him (or others) and how would have given us more info for today.

[imaginality]

okay, well I'm probably just gonna not move my vote and maybe pop in eventually until you get limd

Careful, your famed "90% of the productive discussion" score might take a hit.

This post right here speaks to why goats was happy to go against me today (if I'd been the random result and we'd both returned guilty). Just so sure they can ride on their carefully established townread status to win any 1v1s they need to.

Also note how they've quickly made it me vs them once I made my case on them (after first expressing suspicion of me but not voting me, a classic way for scum to test the water before committing to a push). They could have looked for other possible scum pairings - but would rather focus on taking me out because I'm the only one who is calling them out as scum.

[imaginality]

So why not vote me off the bat rather than wait to see what others thought about it?

[imaginality]

i have read 0 of this game but apparently imaginality is outed so im just going to vote them until they die

you can sheep this vote and share the glory or refuse to sheep it and flounder in ignoble shame

Outed? I voted esooa because I figured out your playerslot is scum, in what world does that vote make me outed scum?

If you were town you'd consider the possibility I might be wrong town, but you're not. Because you know you're scum.

everyone who sheeps me is lock town everyone who disagrees is lock scum

pick your side carefully!!!

How does this align with esooa pretty much calling both Arc and NM scumbuddies to me? If Arc and/or NM join your crusade against me you're not going to try to get them miseliminated tomorrow even when I flip town? Yeah, right.

imaginality hasn't posted because frozen.

gg ez

It's 11am Thursday here, I'm at work...

[imaginality]

imaginality hasn't posted because frozen.

gg ez

It's everyone else not posting that's the issue here. Only Arc has commented and even that was just to ask NM what he thought. We really need to hear from the others.

[imaginality]

Seriously?

With a town as quiet as this, this is why we need to eliminate scum!goats today or else they're just going to lead you all to defeat tomorrow.

[imaginality]

Seriously?

With a town as quiet as this, this is why we need to eliminate scum!goats today or else they're just going to lead you all to defeat tomorrow.

If they could lead us to defeat tomorrow, what's stopping them from leading us to defeat today?

We're not in x-lo today.

They're taking the first step though, trying to get me mislimmed.

[imaginality]

ughh
So the goats/ima interaction makes me think ima is scum?

T3-goats scumteam, you heard it here first

[imaginality]

If I were scum there'd be no reason for me to take goats on. In that scenario three of the four of you are town and any of those three would be an easier mislim for me to push than picking a fight with goats.

[imaginality]

Boring

NM if you're bored come join me on a goats wagon, it's a fun exciting ride! And saves you from getting mislimmed by them tomorrow.

[imaginality]

ughh
So the goats/ima interaction makes me think ima is scum?

Care to explain why you think so, so I can point out why you're wrong?

[imaginality]

@Arc are you going to put a vote on anyone in case you're not back before deadline?

[imaginality]

I don't even care if I get mislimmed first so long as you all promise to l goats when I flip town

[imaginality]

Actually I do care because I think I'm reading this game and making better cases than the rest of you so it'd be better if I'm still around to nail the remaining scum buddy. But I just really really don't want goats getting away with it if I'm right about them being scum

[imaginality]

I haven't played with Not_Mafia before, is quick-hammering something he does every day or just D1?

Why do you ask?

Because an early quick-hammer shortens discussion which is usually a bad thing (gives us less info to go on on the next day) so if he's still likely to quickhammer I'd want to be surer of my read if I'm putting someone to E-1 early today, compared with if he only plays like that D1.

Imaginality's posts are pretty towny this day phase so far

goats called me towny when I wanted to make sure D2 didn't get cut short, interesting contrast to more recent posts where they call me scummy for wanting D3 to not get cut short for the same reasons.

More significantly:

outside of this I have arc/zyla as town off tone

that leaves 4 players

Cyrus, imaginality, NM, and the person who hasn't posted except once

I could be wrong on either arc or zyla (my zyla read being stronger) but I liked arcs interactions with Cyrus who I believe is a wolf

I notice goats called Cyrus wolf here, without voting him, but I don't think goats rescinded that read. Indeed other D1 posts from goats talked about reasons for reading reading cyrus as possible partner with various people.
So the bolded statement below seems a flat out lie.

VOTE: Kop

I don't think I need to explain this

I have town read both day 1

and day 2 exes

Can people start listening to me?

I defy anyone to read goats D1 posts and explain to me how the above is true.

[imaginality]

Imaginality u have been so annoying u made me meta read someone on MS to see if you aren't just an UNBELIEVABLY wrong town

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=11305

I had to find a game from 2007 for this

And you know what? Ur a wolf

I'm leaving now

So sorry to have to make you work for your scum win.

[imaginality]

Okay Cyrus is town, Meg is mafia with Arc and someone idk


UNVOTE:

That's town-reading cyrus.

This is not:

that's actually kinda funny

maybe you're town

and it's the one guy I called wolf last page and NM and the afk guy who just showed up

Especially when you carry on digging into cyrus's actions right when Not_Mafia is calling for someone to put cyrus at E-1 and you don't comment on that. No, "hey I townread cyrus, don't elim him".

[imaginality]

Imaginality u have been so annoying u made me meta read someone on MS to see if you aren't just an UNBELIEVABLY wrong town

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=11305

I had to find a game from 2007 for this

And you know what? Ur a wolf

I'm leaving now

I think there was a more recent game (like.. 2009? Lol) where I was scum and irritated DrippingGoofBall into throwing her toys out of her pram and got her mis-elimmed. I'm not worried about pointing to that though because whatever my meta is (as if meta from a decade ago is worth much anyhow), whether you get elimmed today should be down to whether the town agree with my reasons why you're wolf.

For any townies who feel like I'm posting too much, just reread my posts from near the start of today (#454-456 ). Since then there's been back and forth between me and goats but nothing that's going to shift the dial much. Basically do you think my theory in 454 makes sense or not?

[imaginality]

I think goats just picked ArcAngel because of #532 suggesting it's a way to get Zyla's vote off them. Goats had all but given up defending themselves and now we're going to let them deflect us?
My vote's not changing.

[imaginality]

Huh. I don't see it like that.

If goats is town I

really

don't get why scum targeted them, when if they left them alone they'd very likely have been eliminated today. Just target two other townies and it's an easy win by getting goats eliminated today.

Goats being scum hoping for an inno on themselves makes more sense, I reckon. And it probably was worth the gamble to hope for an inno given that goats was likely going down today otherwise. So worst case they still go down, scum haven't really lost anything by trying for an inno.

Also I think goats would see themselves as having a decent chance of winning a guilty-guilty 50-50 shot vs NM, whereas against anyone else they wouldn't. So NM being the other target fits.

Just to note, goats+Not_Mafia is ruled out as a pairing by this result.

The shift to ArcAngel at the end of yesterday smelt bad to me. I'm trying to figure out whether Zyla pushing it makes her scum (teamed with goats) or town led astray by goats's flailing. My gut says if goat is scum T3 is goats' partner and Zyla is misled town. T3 being quick to call goats obv town based on the result fits with that too.


If I'm wrong and goats is town:

Zyla+T3... seems unlikely because with the likely inno-inno results like this it gives one of them too high a chance of being today's elimination.

Zyla-NM... I don't see Zyla+NM going for NM or for goats. For above reasons with goats and because I don't think they would risk the likely guilty on NM. More likely they target T3 and me and hope for a false guilty, or a goats mislim otherwise.

T3+NM... Maybe. Probably the most likely of those three possibilities. Just because scum!T3 has more chance of winning endgame if scum!NM gets eliminated, compared with scum!Zyla. But again, why not just target me and Zyla and hope for a false guilty?

I do think NM would fancy himself as winning a guilty-guilty vs goats, it just seems unnecessary to take the risk.

So right now, I see it as:
goats-T3
goats-Zyla
..
T3-NM
Zyla-NM
Zyla-T3

@T3

If goats is town then why did scum target them last night?

[imaginality]

@others please don't vote me. When scum fail to come and quick me it'll prove goats is scum. (from my point of view. From yours it'll prove one of {me, goats} is scum. Nothing has changed since yesterday, goats needs to go.

[imaginality]

Seriously?

With a town as quiet as this, this is why we need to eliminate scum!goats today or else they're just going to lead you all to defeat tomorrow.

QFT

[imaginality]

tl;dr

You are a joke.

Actually, though, thanks for reminding me how bad you are. With NM still here I'm not going to wait for goats's scumbuddy (if not NM, that is - I still think T3 is likeliest) to put me on X-1 so NM can quick hammer again again again to lose us the game.

VOTE: goats

[imaginality]

@Zyla, @T3 - whichever of you is town, can you vote goats so Not_Mafia actually quick hammers scum this time? Thanks

[imaginality]

Actually NM is confirmed not goats's buddy so since goats is scum NM really is awful town who'll lose us the game if we give him the chance to.

[imaginality]

Omg they managed to make even that joke worse. "If I could run, do you think I'd be playing baseball?" is a cleaner punchline. Let the reader make the connection.
I am enjoying that thread of yours infinitely more than your play this game though.
Actually, I even enjoy the jokes in that thread infinitely more than your play.

[imaginality]

And off chance I'm wrong, at least we know that the team is {T3, Goats}, even if we lose the game by finding

Losing the game to find out makes no sense, Zyla.
I'm not scum. You knew that yesterday. All that's happened since is goats gambled and won an inno.

This seriously sucks, this is exactly why I said we needed to eliminate goats yesterday!

[imaginality]

If I were scum there's no way I'd target goats. Leave them alone, they get eliminated today after that Arc mislim yesterday.

[imaginality]

Am I wrong about T3?

I don't want to omgus but Zyla switching tack like this could mean Zyla-goats?

T3

, whats your read on Zyla? Same question for

NM

Also Zyla you do realise you're effectively eliminating me if NM hammers? Can you unvote so we can discuss this more?

I don't care if you still vote me in the end, I just want the chance to not rush this decision.

[imaginality]

My instinct here is to vote imaginality, the chances of two false negatives on goats or NM seem way too low for me
To me that says that it's imaginality

VOTE: imaginality

There's an inno on me too. The only difference is goats got one last night, when there was a 30% chance scum would get an inno (2 scum from 5 players left, so 60% chance of them getting a random inno if they're the random result).

Consider whether goats thought they had a >30% chance of surviving today if they didn't take that gamble. It's obvious why it was worth the risk.

[imaginality]

Zyla, we have this game. It's goats and T3.

goats had all but given up yesterday until you gave them an out by switching to Arc. Seemingly because you thought goats' theory of Arc+me/you was more likely than my theory of goats+T3/NM - even though you voted goats over me just before so presumably thought goats more likely scum than me on an individual basis.

Well Arc wasn't scum and neither am I.

We'd caught scum, they'd given up, you'd voted for them, don't let them get away with this!

[imaginality]

Not_Mafia - I hesitate to appeal to you because you're a troll who'll probably hammer me right after this just for the lolz and lose us the game... But I promise you you can hammer goats if you just wait for Zyla (or if I have her/T3 wrong, T3) to see sense and vote the goat. You'll get to hammer, just give me 24 hours sarge, I'll bring you the villain you're looking for!

[imaginality]

This is probably all in vain anyway unless Zyla unvotes me before scum!T3 comes online to hammer me.

[imaginality]

Goats, if it's not you, it's not me, which means it's T3 and Zyla. I don't see it, but if you are town, you need to unvote me before T3 hammers.

[imaginality]

Thanks for going against form there Not_Mafia, I felt sure you were going to hammer me!

I'm relieved T3 turned up before anyone else could sway your vote away.

Well played goats, you were scarily on the money at times. I didn't think we could get you mislimmed but knew we had to go for it.

More thoughts after I sleep.

[imaginality]

Gg Zyla. I'd be keen to be town with you in other games, you made some good points along the way. I could only make a flimsy case against you, not surprised no one bought it.

As for the investigation targets last night: we wanted you to be among the mislim candidates today and felt an inno result on you would have been too believable. And we didn't want to deal with a guilty on T3 or me. (This setup definitely punishes scum when their buddies get eliminated - having to ride through two more nights of investigations to win 1v1 just didn't seem at all realistic so we both felt we really needed to win it today.)
So by default that left goats and NM. It let us fish for a guilty on either of them, while also able to use the wifomy 'why would non-goats-scum investigate goats' argument I made against goats in the two innos scenario that transpired.

During the night, I actually felt reasonably confident you'd vote goats rather than me today, so well done on not buying my nonsense.

@NM x-lo is always a tough spot to be in, easy to start to second guess yourself (at least that's true for me) . I'm curious if there was anything in particular that swung your vote to goats rather than me?