Holiday Dance Party ---- Game Over

[Save The Dragons]

caught 'em

[RH9]

guiltylions and datisi

GL?! Why? Datisi seems like he's following GL along but GL has a solid case, remember.

[Save The Dragons]

all i'm saying is i was voting norwee (and marci) before it was cool

[Datisi]

Datisi seems like he's following GL along

i was the first to vote there

for the record, i started seeing a lot of my other suspects were turning out to be kinda townie, while this pairing... wasn't, so it's a good new starting point

[Datisi]

rh9, were you asked the question to name some gth scumreads? did you answer it?

[RH9]

rh9, were you asked the question to name some gth scumreads? did you answer it?

I'm not sure. Can you remind me? I'll probably answer after I eat breakfast.

[Save The Dragons]

i think a particularly charming and handsome gentleman asked that question

[Save The Dragons]

like RH9, gun to head, can you pick out 4 slots you think are the scum team

[Save The Dragons]

but i forgot because i was talking to HQ lol

[marcistar]

guiltylions and datisi

GL?! Why? Datisi seems like he's following GL along but GL has a solid case, remember.

guiltylions case is built up on something thats easily explainable

all i'm saying is i was voting norwee (and marci) before it was cool

cant do that when its always been cool
like this is the second time a wagons forming on us, how does that not prove we're the easy to miselim pair??

[Something_Smart]

Spoiler: lotta quotes

lady guiltylion!! did you roll town!?

hello hello hello friends!

Datisi I did roll town! Are you sure you didn't know that already?

I was having fun when we were talking about songs about dancing

I feel good vibes from Datisi. I dunno if I'd want to accept a proposal from marcistar, her posts were meh

like I think mafia who know me would probably be scared of proposing to me but 35 sounds like you kinda want to, which like, would scum!Datisi really want to

we've been waiting for a town/town win for years now so like, pairing with you and then winning if we're t/t would be very grand

but, scum!datisi is a petty little shit, and when someone heavily beats my ass i really wanna win the next time i play with them, and win in the meanest way possible (pocket that person, take them to lylo etc) so if you're town, scumtisi would probably also want to pair with you

ah okay, maybe I underestimate your pettiness. so I shouldn't be townreading you (yet) then?

ah okay, maybe I underestimate your pettiness. so I shouldn't be townreading you (yet) then?

you probably shouldn't be townreading me for angling to be able to propose to you, no. you're still free to draw your own conclusions on whether i'm doing it in a townie or a scummy way

I wouldn't be surprised if 4/8 of them are maf

really? you put 9 red marbles and 7 green marbles (Taly being conftown isn't in the pool) in a bag and draw 4 green and you're not surprised?

okay okay okay the reason this post feels Very Extremely Bad is

in 174, andante said "I SR a bunch of gentlemen, I wouldn't be surprised if 4/8 of them are maf". like, it's obviously saying that she has so many scumreads within the gentlemen, she wouldn't be surprised if all scum were gents. and what does guiltylion do? he chops off that part of the post, which is literally right there next to the part he does quote, and posts 180, which frames andante's post as a pure mathematical probability question when it clearly wasn't that, and the context was right there and he removed it and whyyy

it feels somewhat natural for me to go from "wow, i have so many scumreads in the gentlemen" to "haha, wouldn't be surprised if all scum are in there".

eh, this is the disconnect. That latter thought is Always Wrong, you should be Extremely Surprised if all scum are in there, even if you have like an absurd amount of confidence in your reads

do you usually take things so literally in mafia? i don't remember you doing that as town

like, even if i were scumreading a couple of gents and said "damn, wouldn't be surprised if all are in there", it wouldn't mean that i literally would not be surprised, it would just be a way to use colourful language to speak my read on the gamestate. obviously i can't claim andante was doing that, but i don't think it's too difficult to assume that someone *could* be doing that, so...

ydra, if i proposed to you, would you accept?

i just realized that if i pair with anyone that is even slightly familiar with me, they would very easily townread me in the pt because when i see the purple colour, i just get the primal urge to spam the everliving shit out of it in a paranoid frenzy, in a way that i cannot even remotely replicate as scum

but then i also realized that the rest of the players could just go "uhh datisi is pocketing them in the pt" so rip that idea i guess

GL

how do you feel about dancing with the BEAKIEST

taly

?

this isnt an official offer, just testing the water

I'd definitely enjoy the experience of sharing a PT with you! I'd be open to it. especially if people think they'd be paranoid of me in LIMLO I don't mind setting myself up to try to eat a bullet.

I'd want other people to weigh in on if they are strongly for/against it though

i just realized that if i pair with anyone that is even slightly familiar with me, they would very easily townread me in the pt because when i see the purple colour, i just get the primal urge to spam the everliving shit out of it in a paranoid frenzy, in a way that i cannot even remotely replicate as scum

but then i also realized that the rest of the players could just go "uhh datisi is pocketing them in the pt" so rip that idea i guess

actually if you’re like that i’ll pair with you

i'm not sure if scum!you actually wants to accept a pair with me, considering (1) i am very prone to scumreading you, and (2) i utterly despise endgames, so i'm more likely to leave the dance

maybe you'd be counting on the fact that i'd be obvtown and talked into staying by the rest of the town? dunno

I definitely disagree that Ydrasse's remark was "almost irrelevant", to me that's the first thing she's said that's stood out and responding to a potential dance offer is probably the most awkward/difficult moment for scum in this phase, so any weirdness should be looked at intently

would

you

dance with me if i proposed?

absolutely!

I'd wait to see if Taly or anyone else has Serious Objections before accepting but I feel pretty good about townreading you and it'd obviously be super fun

fiiine, i can sense i'm getting tunnel vision on your slot too.

pedit: @guiltylion obviously

also trying to break up a Datisi/GL powertown pairing, trying to buddy catboi, trying to sneak scum!Cabd into the dance by arguing to pair him with Taly... lotta scum agenda I'm seeing in LLD's GL push

I bet Taly/Ydrasse would be really healthy for both, actually.

actually this is something i would also support

also for the record, i'm not like, completely opposed to dancing with prism if she'll have me. unfortunate on the pt part of the game, but i think prism can discern my alignment pretty well if she's town already, so. and i won't be worrying if i'm getting pocketed in the pt.

granted, i'll be worrying if i'm getting pocketed in the main thread, but that's the game.

@Datisi - I'm not trying to galaxy brain, I just want the best odds of T/T pairs that become unlimmabale

I think Taly/Ydra sounds best if not Taly/Prism also

Taly/Ydra
Datisi/Prism

If I'm being spicy I'd like StD/Mala I think STD is vaguely townie and Mala is a complete wildcard but they're not people you never lim


then you lim in whatever's left of Galron/RH9 and lily/Cabd and almost definitely hit some number of scum there

And then there's a long stretch where GL isn't really thinking about pairings because he thinks he'll be left out due to LLD

I was having fun when we were talking about songs about dancing

I feel good vibes from Datisi. I dunno if I'd want to accept a proposal from marcistar, her posts were meh

like I think mafia who know me would probably be scared of proposing to me but 35 sounds like you kinda want to, which like, would scum!Datisi really want to

we've been waiting for a town/town win for years now so like, pairing with you and then winning if we're t/t would be very grand

but, scum!datisi is a petty little shit, and when someone heavily beats my ass i really wanna win the next time i play with them, and win in the meanest way possible (pocket that person, take them to lylo etc) so if you're town, scumtisi would probably also want to pair with you

ah okay, maybe I underestimate your pettiness. so I shouldn't be townreading you (yet) then?

prism, would you be down to pair with me as a potential endgame pair? i noticed a few people talked about it but i don't remember you saying your opinion there

On why I don't believe my play fits a pattern of "pocketing Datisi"

- I have a few thoughts here. The first is that the last time I was scum against Datisi, I fear killed him on N1 because I was terrified of him catching me and I didn't want to have to keep playing the entire game around pocketing Datisi. This was only a few months ago in White Flag 834, my most recent scum game.

(I also invite anyone/everyone else to look at it and see if they feel any differences for themselves between my play there and my play here, not just in terms of how I treat Datisi but also my play in general.)

If I were scum the

last

thing I would want is any chance of needing to pocket Datisi through endgame, as evidenced by what I did in that prior game. I'm not a good pocketer. I don't even fancy myself a good scum player. I hate being endgame scum and normally what I aim to do is bully my way to surviving a few days through the easy MLs while making my teammates look as dis-associated as possible, and then sac myself so that they can try to endgame. Part of the reason this strategy is usually necessary is also because I tend to get killed early when I'm town in most games and so me being alive in LIMLO is rather damning most of the time - I recognize that doesn't apply in this setup as much given the lack of traditional NK, but dancing with Datisi and then needing to spend the whole game making sure Datisi doesn't paranoia leave doesn't strike me as something I'd want to do or something I'd be good at.

Further - if my agenda

was

to pocket Datisi, I don't think I've taken any initiative to really... do that? Like yes, I did townread Datisi early, but I've taken a very clear backseat in terms of letting Datisi propose/dance with whoever he wants to dance with. I didn't lie when he asked if I would be up for dancing with him, but I don't think there's a single post in my ISO that is a) pocket-y in nature and b) NOT a response to Datisi talking to me directly. Most of my interactions with Datisi have been replying to what he's said and not me going out of my way to flatter him or make him feel good about his reads or any of that other stuff that usually comes with buddying/pocketing. I've been instead pressuring/reacting to slots I'm suspicious of, rather than angling to get myself specifically townread. If my agenda was to pocket Datisi and get a dance with him, I think you'd be hard pressed to say that's what I've spent most of my time doing.

Finally, as for my actual townread on Datisi and where it came from, there's a few things that strike me as unlikely to come from scum. The first was 35, I know Datisi

said

that if they were scum they'd want to win in the most vengeful way possible, pocketing me and taking me to endgame and crushing my hopes and dreams of a Datisi/GL dance townwin, but I honestly dunno if I believe him. I caught Datisi almost instantly last time I played with him as scum and I think if he were scum and he knew I was town there'd be at least some detectable degree of Fear. The mindset behind 35 wasn't at all to create excuses to avoid dancing with me, instead Datisi is actually making it harder for himself to not dance with me by saying he thinks he could correctly sort me. I don't think scum would discard a potentially useful reason to get out of dancing with me (I can't read him and he shouldn't endgame), scum!Datisi instead would be worried that

I

might catch

him

. I don't sense any self-consciousness here.

The second is kind of a holistic like of his reasons for suspicion or scumreads. I haven't once looked at a Datisi post and disliked their reasoning for feeling shallow or disingenuous, even when he's been suspicious of me. I don't agree at all that "[a] I scumread so many gentlemen that (b) I could see all 4 gentleman being maf" is a reasonable or good thought process, but I

can

understand that Datisi would think that the [a] context means (b) makes sense and hence disliked me asking Andante to explain if they really believed (b). I think Datisi's point against lily ignoring/handwaving marci's reads point, especially given their shared history and lily's claimed lack of foothold in the game, is well reasoned. I think Datisi also pushing why I reacted differently to him and catboi, that also makes sense as a genuine paranoia concern. I feel like I'm Stating The Obvious writing all this out but basically all of Datisi's thought process clicks for me and I don't think he's done any twisting/manipulating when presenting suspicion or scumreads, which is like chiefly what I'm looking for for a comfortable scumread. And to touch again on why I didn't originally like catboi, it was because I didn't see any real reasoning for why he didn't like my post other than he claimed it was a "gotcha" -> which I thought was a Shallow Reason because I hadn't even attempted to actually gotcha Andante, my 180 wasn't meant to be an accusation or a scumread. Again, that obviously doesn't apply to catboi anymore, but it exemplifies what I'm trying to point to when I talk about like, non-shallow or understandable reasons for scumreading somebody, even when that somebody is myself.

Anyway, I hope this ramble was somewhat useful Dats, it's not the kinda post I would normally write cause it's a bit self-meta-y and I feel like if I were you this wouldn't really help with any pocket paranoia, but you've requested it so here it is. Now onto the actual good shit, which is Lily, and then maybe Andante. and then if I have time after that I want to actually address what Titus is doing cause it looks like a mess of premeditated agenda posting to me

I would endorse GuiltyLion accepting marci's proposal at this point in time, but I also wouldn't mind her pairing with her friend anymore either.

this is interesting

I've been reluctant to accept because I think if marci's town it's a Bad Pairing and would be easy for scum to push the miselim via one player or the other, unless perhaps

both

Titus and S_S flip red. I kinda think marci-lily would be better - if there's at least one scum in the two they have no chance at endgaming and a T-T flip would suck but wouldn't be devastating since odds are high they'd have been candidates for lim in a different pair as well. and if nothing else it'd be fun for the two of them

I think maybe marci/GL could work on the condition if we left lily out - a lily redflip would be a lot of townpoints for marci (almost clearing in my mind - I do agree with you that I think marci's later posts have been better - not sure if I've thought about them enough to comfortably townread yet) and maybe if S_S and/or Titus flips red as well I'd be established as far more likely town by that point.

Titus' singular minded push on me is sinking the odds that LLD was just wrongTown, which I think is making marci feel better in my eyes too

okay, so.

would you like to dance with me, guiltylion?

i have a few reasons for this. the first one is that i did like what he posted while i was alseep. i don't feel like elaborating too much right now (i have some other things to do in my life) but if it's needed i will.

second is that i was dead serious when i said that my lizard brain goes wack when i see the purple pt colour. i once had a scum pt be longer than the main game. i will absolutely be utilizing the everliving shit out of it. and the thing with guiltylion? i know he's a tryhard. if he's town, i *know* he will have a similar approach to the pt like me. so, if he's scum, he either has to seriously break out of his scumrange to keep up with me, both in the main thread and in the pt, or die.

i would be okay with pairing with alyssa too. i don't have too much faith in being able to reverse a potentially wrong townread on her later in the game, but i like what she's posting enough now that i feel fine sweeping that under the carpet and hoping it doesn't come to it.

Fire/Datisi, can you digress on your GL townread?

short version is that i feel that the things he's said check out - pairing with me guarantees he's gonna have to have the scum performance of his life to not die. even taking what he's said about not endgaming as scum into account, it feels like it would be much easier for him to survive longer if he paired with like, anyone else. and the amount of analysis and effort feels townie.

I'd love to accept Datisi's proposal both because I think it'd be good for the game and because I'd have the most fun that way, but it sounds like Taly is against it? I reserve the right to Yolo accept later but I'm OK in theory with Datisi/Alyssa pairing instead if it means I get my say on who gets iced or limmed first. I'll address posts/questions towards me later.

Taly please can you explain why you are townreading Cabd/SS. It's the scummiest slot in the game. S_S hasn't done anything to make me reconsider and at times has been scummy himself as well

sorry x_x if i'm picking between guiltylion and alyssa, and i pair with scum, i think lesser damage will happen to town if that scum is guiltylion than if that scum is alyssa.

would you like to dance with me, guiltylion?

I accept

this is gonna be a lot of fun, and you have full promise of me tryharding!! I'm already close to eclipsing my post count this game than I had total in White Flag

This... is a lot more to read through than the Norwee/marci one.

Clearly, they both showed some interest in pairing just based on knowing each other, given the way they were joking about it in the early game. Based on that, it seems plausible that either one could be angling to pair with the other and potentially pocket them. I see this a fair bit in the early game from GL, in particular in post 685. But then his attitude toward pairings takes a pretty sharp turn, presumably due to LLD's push. This makes me think that the early focus on Datisi was genuine; if anything, the obvious scum move would be to double down on trying to pocket Datisi to ensure he doesn't get left out. Datisi, meanwhile, has doubts on GL for quite a long time, and I may have missed some of it but there doesn't seem to be much of a smooth progression back to townreading him. GL's demeanor changes when LLD is replaced, it seems like he hadn't seriously considered accepting marci until then (which is towny) but gave kind of a weird reason for not pairing with her (which is +scum if marci is scum).

Then Datisi proposes to GL and... like I said, I don't totally get why he did this. It seems like he hand-waved away some doubts about GL being scum with "if he is scum, he won't be able to keep up with me in the PT". Which, based on experience, might be true, but it feels like Datisi isn't really giving a lot of thought into putting himself into an endgame pairing, even though I think some people were townreading him by this point? I'm also a little skeptical that, if this effect is really as strong as Datisi says it is, it took him this long to want to do it. I guess what happened was, this was the first time that GL got to a towny enough point where Datisi thought it was worth pairing with him in order to sort him? Datisi weighing in on this would be helpful. If either of them is aiming to pocket the other, I think it's likely Datisi sensing the tide turning here and trying to pivot his read asap.

This progression seems below likelihood of being S/S. There are things in there that look like they

could

be premeditated, but given the pressure on GL it's unlikely any solid plan would have formed until after LLD replaced out, and they didn't speak much about pairing between then and when they did pair. Plus, I have a hard time believing that GL posts a massive exhortation of why he isn't pocketing Datisi if they're scum together.

I already felt GL was town based on individual reads; this solidifies that somewhat. I already had no read on Datisi;

this solidifies that too

gun to head I would say it makes him scummier but I would like to hear his side of how his read on GL changed because I don't think I caught everything in my ISO dive.

[Something_Smart]

EBWOP

This progression seems below

average

likelihood of being S/S.

[NorwegianboyEE]

STD have you spoken to Titus at all?

[Datisi]

I think it's likely Datisi sensing the tide turning here and trying to pivot his read asap.

sensing the

what

?

sorry, the only person in this entire game who has expressed a negative read on me has been andante (a constant scumlean with no logic, no reasoning, and no elaboration), and you, though yours is much recent. so, when did this ~tide turn~ happen?

i'll weigh in on the rest a bit later

[NorwegianboyEE]

for the record, i started seeing a lot of my other suspects were turning out to be kinda townie, while this pairing... wasn't, so it's a good new starting point

Question, if you see us flip town.
Would that help your reads in any way at all?

[Save The Dragons]

STD have you spoken to Titus at all?

yes

[Something_Smart]

sensing the what?

sorry, the only person in this entire game who has expressed a negative read on me has been andante (a constant scumlean with no logic, no reasoning, and no elaboration), and you, though yours is much recent. so, when did this ~tide turn~ happen?

The tide turning on GL, sorry if that wasn't clear.

GL was basically playing like a dead man until LLD dropped.

[Datisi]

for the record, i started seeing a lot of my other suspects were turning out to be kinda townie, while this pairing... wasn't, so it's a good new starting point

Question, if you see us flip town.
Would that help your reads in any way at all?

not sure, haven't really thought about it yet

i'd probably take a look into why this wagon happened and all the others haven't, but i don't have anything concrete

[NorwegianboyEE]

STD have you spoken to Titus at all?

yes

Do you both agree me/Marci is a good vote.

[NorwegianboyEE]

I think it's more likely we have 4 T/S pairs. Leaves more room for scum to hide in. Also there are a lot of pairs where i scumread one or find them very iffy, but townread the other.

[Datisi]

The tide turning on GL, sorry if that wasn't clear.

GL was basically playing like a dead man until LLD dropped.

ah okay, that made it sound like i was suddenly getting scumread and had to scramble to accept a partner, and i was very confused ahaha

i mean, i'm not sure i see your point in how that is scum!indicative. the tide was turning on him and he was starting to get more townread, yeah, but there were still more townread ladies that i could take, and that a bit of the game was asking me to take instead. scum!tisi would have to consciously ignore that and go for the more-controversial town!lady that also has more history with me and more knowledge of my play because...?

[Datisi]

and he's not the only lady who was townreading me either, i think i have been alyssa's sole gentlemen townread for a while at that point. why not propose to her?

(yes, i know you can just say but what if you're partners and you wanted a town dance partner and /shrug)

[Harley Quinn]

UNVOTE:

Norwee, why aren’t you fliiping out over getting sr? And I don’t understand why you’d need to check out other slots than the IC? For me personally, only reason I wouldn’t have paired with the IC if it was someone I thought I would have a bad experience with but that obviously would never be Taly and you can be mad at Ydra’s vote but she did actually pair with Taly, so at worst fypov, you should think she’s wrong for doing that not scum.

I honestly don’t know what to think now. It would really make me sad if I wasn’t initially being correctly tr by someone other than my dance partner.

Shiro told me about some game RC apparently did that but Ydra’s been transparently townie here.

[Save The Dragons]

STD have you spoken to Titus at all?

yes

Do you both agree me/Marci is a good vote.

she hasn't said much about you/marci

[Harley Quinn]

STD have you spoken to Titus at all?

yes

Do you both agree me/Marci is a good vote.

she hasn't said much about you/marci

What has she talked about?