In post 2905, mastina wrote:I don't lie about my role, yet alone claim to be an alignment that I'm not. (And the proof that I was breadcrumbing 3p before D2 is plenty present, too, so you can't claim that it was bullshit I made up after the result.)In post 2903, House wrote:mastina stinks of scum, too.
Iamnontown in that Iamthird party, but that's actually the reason why I think you're scum:
The town needs me in order to win now since they can't vote out scum without me, but that wasn't the case yesterday. I admit to some selfishness in not having mentioned it at the time (while I am altruistic in wanting to win with the town, I am not an idiot) but yesterday the town had a safe option to eliminate: me. You had one mislim to spare. I was, explicitly, claimed nontown. I was, explicitly, not going to flip town, so it was guaranteed that my death would not be a town death.
Now, granted. I, personally, know that I am not scum, and that my 3p claim is legitimate. I, personally, know that I need two scum dead in order for me to win. I, personally, know that I need to scumhunt and need to work with the town in order to have a chance at winning.
But only I, personally, know these things.
The town does not know that I am not scum bullshitting a 3p claim. (Itshouldbe obvious, but there's no explicit CONFIRMATION beyond my meta strongly suggesting so.)
The town does not know that I need two scum dead in order to win.
The town does not know that I need to scumhunt.
The town does not know that I need to work with the town to have a chance at winning.
The town, explicitly, only has my word and my word alone at those being true. And while I, personally, know them to be true, the town does not.
So if the town wanted to eliminate me, they had ample opportunity to have done so yesterday. Doing so would've confirmed that I am not scum bullshitting a 3p claim; doing so would've confirmed I needed two scum dead in order to win; doing so would've confirmed that I needed to scumhunt, and thus, that all of my reads were valid and shouldn't be ignored as 3p with an agenda. (Since while I do have an agenda of surviving to the end of the game, I need two scum dead as part of that agenda meaning that I need to scumhunt.)
...So why did nobody suggest my elimination yesterday?
It didn't crop up so much as once.
Why didn't RR suggest it? Radical Rat is a mechanics-oriented player, after all, and the mechanical advantages of eliminating a guaranteed not-town slot shouldn't have escaped them.
Why didn't you suggest it, House? You said it yourself:You always call for the death of any 3p because they count against town majority.In post 1667, House wrote:I always call for the death of any 3p because they count against town majority.
You know this.
So why didn't you call for my death yesterday?
Why, when the town had a mislim to spare, didn't you suggest eliminating the third party who in your own logic would count against town majority?
You didn't push anything at all.
You were passive.
You went with the flow.
You never argued against the town plan. You just went along with it.
Which is not the town House I know. When have you ever been passive as town? When have you ever not pushed your stances even when they went against those of the entire town? You literally pushed for my elimination in a game where yoususpectedI was third party when you were town; in this game, I outright claimed it and not once have you voted me.
In post 2972, mastina wrote:Forgive me for not buying the AtE here.In post 2907, House wrote:and this pretending that you can bullshit is exactly the problem I have with you.
Feck off. I'm done with you.
You have a valid point that I have, historically, had bad reads on you before; if you're town, this would not in fact be the first game where I had you as town correctly for the majority of the game but circa lylo reevaluated into a wrong scumread.
But I will still point out the contrast in attitudes between your attitude this game and your attitude in prior games I have seen you where you were town.
The level of hostility you're showing to me here is absolutely new--if it had existed previously, you've not shown it so do forgive me for not buying it from you now.
In post 2972, mastina wrote:Alyssa pushing me would've been a scumclaim since she's one of the best players on site at reading me and frankly one of the best town players on site period.In post 2910, Titus wrote:@mastina, why doesn't your passive/didn't push you rationale also apply to Alyssa?
But Alyssa is not someone whose skills and gamesolving as town rely on her pushing players hard. Her style of being a strong player is, innately, inherently, a lot more passive, a lot more reactive, a lot more in response to others. Yes, she tends to be a little more active in having done so than in this game, but, 1: she's a replacement and this game has multi-game mechanics that are complex and can interfere with what she'd want to do until we were down to one game, and, 2: she's back from a year-break just recently. While I would expect her skills to remain, her ability to instantly win the game for the town I would imagine will take some rev-up time, so to speak.
Also, Alyssa's still skilled at scumplay, too, so this would be an underperformance regardless of her alignment, and I feel like the two factors above are plenty enough a justification for it.
But Alyssa has been in the game for a grand total of 12 days, and is already on her way to topping the charts post-wise. Her posts show a solving trajectory that I feel is indicative of her being town, and she's been engaging a lot with you, Titus, rather than engaging a lot with me. If Alyssa were scum I'd expect her to have more of a focus on me, interacting more with me, engaging more with me, trying to get me more involved with her as a key slot to help her.
Instead, she's more interacting with you, which I feel is town-indicative for Alyssa because Alyssa as town doesn't know your alignment. She can safely figure out that I'm truthful just by knowing me and thus, knows she doesn't need to spend much time on me. A few questions here and there (which she's asked), but mostly, her effort is focused on interacting with the slots that are unknowns, rather than interacting with the slots that are more known.
I realize that it's possible that Alyssa as scum figured I'm not reevaluating and that effort was better focused on pocketing you Titus--but that feels like a big risk for her since I am not reckless in lylo scenarios and give proper reassessment and time to consider and can get paranoid and reassess prior assumptions...including her being town. It feels like while Alyssa ispossibleas scum, theprobableanswer is that she's just town.
Beyond that? The slot wasn't just her being town.In post 1331, RCEnigma wrote:If I die before day 2 in every game I'm taking my ball and going home.These show that RCE was probably genuine in being town.In post 1363, RCEnigma wrote:Oh right I was just going to chance it and hold the info but I might be donezo and I didn't crumb anything since in my head I could just stay in thread when I die.In post 1349, Radical Rat wrote:You have at least a few hours during which you're effectively a Townstump for Game 1.In post 1331, RCEnigma wrote:If I die before day 2 in every game I'm taking my ball and going home.
Who did you JK? What are your final reads?
I jailkept cheeky. There was a post she made way early that I was going to soft on but yeah I had the immortal RC thought.
But then there's one more thing:In post 447, T3 wrote:from the 2 games I've played with RCE I think I may have some kind of meta tell on himIn post 457, T3 wrote:I'm like 95% sure RCE is town in all of his games.T3 has thusfar been proven right on 2/3 of his games in having said this. RCE was town in games 1 and 3.In post 1146, T3 wrote:Top townread? Definitely RCE.
I trust T3 to be right about RCE being town in all three games, and Alyssa is the RCE slot.
Pagetopping these, as it's pertinent to this:In post 2974, mastina wrote:Titus is mechanically conftown per RR's result and was already strongly indicated as town prior to that anyway.In post 2922, Alyssa The Lamb wrote:I'm mostly interested in sorting Titus one way or another, since that's ultimately what solves the game for me
While it's theoretically possible for the scumteam to be RR + Titus, you always flip RR there first. And even then, Titus is probably not lying since the interactions don't seem to fit with the two being scum together. Plus, half of my proof for RR being scum relies on Titus not being scum.
Cheeky claimed to RR and Titus prior to D2.
If RR and Titus were scum, then they could have just submitted a kill on Cheeky with no consequence. She'd die without generating so much as a single result, and nobody would be the wiser. Nobody would know it was due to her having claimed in the PT.
Instead, she lived--which indicates that the scum either didn't know (the scumteam would have to be 2/3 of {you, House, Amy Dunne} when House and Amy Dunne are very clearly not scum together in other words basically require you to be scum which you know to not be true)...
...Or that they did, but felt that they couldn't make that kill without it being a scumclaim. If Cheeky claimed N1 in the theme via the game 1 scum PT, then if she ended up dead on D2, it'd tell Titus that RR was scum in game 2.
Plus, if Titus or CheekyTeeky died too soon in the mini theme, they could be concerned about RR and leave clear unambiguous breadcrumbs as to why the kill on them in game 2 had to come from a game 1 scum player.
That, aside from the sheer value in just the pocketing power of a scum neighborhood. Cheeky would need to die for the town results to stop, but never underestimate the power of a scum pocket via a neighborhood.
What in Titus's unclaimed-publicly role would make it MANDATORY to kill her? She's very clearly not an investigative. If she were she'd have useful results by now. And if she's not an investigative, she's not a threat to the scum. If she's a killstop role, there's counterplay...especially if you happen to be in a PT with her and know her claim and thus know the appropriate counterplay. Nobody died N1, sure, but if Titus thinks that's clear evidence RR wouldn't be scum...it's not, because the scum genuinely could have tried to kill me N1, especially with an attempted rb+kill. Or they could've failed to submit a kill, or deliberately chose not to.
As long as there's not a second failed kill, scum lose nothing from N1 having no kill. In fact they arguably gain a lot from it. Keeps the games more synchronized, keeps all slots alive/suspicious, and...can lead to the pocketing of the town killstop role by letting her think that she'd be dead.
Which is actually why I think Titus's continued survival is an indicator that RR is scum.
For instance, A50 figured out RCE was a town PR on D1 in the normal. What stops scum from game two from having figured out he/Titus were a town PR in game two? It hasn't exactly been subtle. So if the scum knew she was a PR...why haven't they killed her? The reason feels like RR would have more reason to keep her alive.
The bolded I've yet to do, but the above are me having covered the non-bolded.In post 2901, mastina wrote:Okay it's too late for me to go into the details tonight, but (hopefully) tomorrow, I intend to:
-Explain why I don't think Amy Dunne is scum (play yesterday, seeing myself in her, thinking my scumread was wrong, lack of scumbuddies)
-Explain why I think that House IS scum (play stuff)
-Explain why I think that RR is scum (the G1 scum PT treatment actually being evidenceagainstthem not for them which I know I'll need to explain to Titus since she'll assume the opposite, Titus being alive,ease of the claim being scum, play stuff)
-Explain why I don't think Alyssa's slot is scum (play stuff)
