Open 842: Diffusion of Power [Postgame]

[morph the cat]

Peng, scum game i mentioned was a mini normal in 2013. I can look it up when I'm not on tablet and pretending sleep might happen. I think "winter" was in the title.

[morph the cat]

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=48518

[Tejate Raichu]

I can't go in-depth on why but I'm actually reconsidering Tejate at the moment.

He's back to the "I want to see more from" pool except this time I think I can sort him better than the almost coin-flip read I had on him up to now (part of me before thinking he was towny for X and the other one thinking he was scummy for Y).

Is there any reason you can't actually say why?

Spoiler: Slight text wall for fua

If anyone wants clarification on my Tejate vote, I feel like this is a bad sequence of posts. When I call him out for his post in 557, he explains it as part of selecting a group of people to examine despite it being just one person under suspicion already. It reads a little like overeager scum shooting for a mislim and wanting to narrow down the eventual target than trying to decipher who scum is.

I can see how you might come to this conclusion. However, it was an earnest attempt to focus a discussion at a point where discussion seemed fractured and disjointed. I did not give a specific list of people to suggest because A) I had already done so via my reads list, and B) I wanted to encourage other people to push their thoughts to the forefront as well. In hindsight, my initial wording was probably less than desirable but it doesn't change my intent with that topic.

I also didn’t really get a sense of trying to scumsolve from hsi readslist (which he didn’t really respond to my comment on) given it’s mostly LHF and townbinning players who have been townread already.

First of all, what is LHF? Second of all, I didn't respond to your comment because there was no comment. You said it was bad without actually explaining why you thought so, unless I skimmed over one of your posts entirely. Third of all, here are some more detailed explanations for you if that wasn't enough: I had Ydrasse in particular townbinned very close to my entry for the game before I had even caught up on the thread. To make it clear, the players in neutral are either: people I find difficult to read, reads I need to observe more before coming to a conclusion, and reads that have been sending me mixed signals. I tend to be careful with who I townbin, which is why no one has reached the status of locktown for me yet. The people I put in scum are there for a reason as well. And as I recall, I was one of the first people to push suspicion on nQ with a specific reason in mind. How can you call that following public opinion? There were much more popular targets I could have dogpiled on if I was scum.

He also has a very quick turnaround on me for having me as the third most likely to be scum on his list and it feels like he’s just trying to roll with the common public opinion while simultaneously not rocking the boat with anything controversial at all.

I townbinned for the exact same reason Shirou did. You could call that a matter of public opinion, or trying to pocket Shirou, or whatever, but the fact is I was going to do so anyways. I see no reason to eliminate the sole unprompted cop claim this early, so I'm making it clear that I won't vote for you today. As I stated in the post you directly quoted, I think scum would have to have pretty big balls to make such a play. What I did not say, is that it was impossible for scum to make such a play.

[fua]

Eh. Not sure if I buy that but I guess I'll concede.

I openly said it was low-hanging fruit though. That means people who are easy to be scapegoated because they're lackluster or have done scummy things/are consensus scumread. Having a single original scumlean isn't really the most reassuring thing though, especially since you did say there was more than enough content to go off of. What's your opinion of NQ now?

[fua]

Townbinning was also the wrong word, I think I should have just said townreading. I get those two confused sometimes.

[Tejate Raichu]

Ah, low hanging fruit makes sense. Well, it is an early day 1 list. I can assure you people will be moving as the game progresses.

As for the matter of nQ, I feel like my thoughts remain largely unchanged. Even some recent posts ping me as... egh.

My take is that we shouldn't lim any of the inactive slots today. This isn't a game suffering for activity, so unless we think all 3 scum are lurking then I don't see an upside to basing wagons on activity.

This one makes little sense to me. We shouldn't base wagons on activity, therefor we shouldn't eliminate the inactive slots? Isn't that

basing wagons off of activity?

[implosion]

@penguin_alien: I found the game. Guess who modded it...

[numberQ]

nQ my point is half that I think it’s silly to categorically not lim less active slots and half to be snarky.

I don't know why this game in particular I keep getting misunderstood or misrepresented or whatever, but I did not say we should categorically not lim less active slots. I said I would rather lim a more active slot because it's day 1. What is limming imag, nsg, or redtea going to tell us about the rest of the gamestate? This early on, I'm more interested in voting a scummy slot who has actually interacted with other slots and might give us some associations day 2. And let's say we do wagon inactive scum. Then the rest of the team has carte blanche to bus their buddy and get sweet towncred. Whereas with an active slot, bussing is a lot harder and there can be clearer lines drawn after the flip irrespective of alignment.

I'm just saying there is more than likely scum amongst the semi-to-very active players, so even if there's also scum in the inactive players, why should we focus there on day 1?

Ah, low hanging fruit makes sense. Well, it is an early day 1 list. I can assure you people will be moving as the game progresses.

As for the matter of nQ, I feel like my thoughts remain largely unchanged. Even some recent posts ping me as... egh.

My take is that we shouldn't lim any of the inactive slots today. This isn't a game suffering for activity, so unless we think all 3 scum are lurking then I don't see an upside to basing wagons on activity.

This one makes little sense to me. We shouldn't base wagons on activity, therefor we shouldn't eliminate the inactive slots? Isn't that

basing wagons off of activity?

I think it's pretty obvious what I meant here. I don't know if you're misrepping on purpose or I'm just chronically not clear this game. Benefit of the doubt that it's the latter: If you look at the rest of the context of that discussion, you'll see I'm advocating that we not use inactivity as a reason to wagon someone this early in the game. Plus the above response to implosion.

[fua]

Ah, low hanging fruit makes sense. Well, it is an early day 1 list. I can assure you people will be moving as the game progresses.

As for the matter of nQ, I feel like my thoughts remain largely unchanged. Even some recent posts ping me as... egh.

My take is that we shouldn't lim any of the inactive slots today. This isn't a game suffering for activity, so unless we think all 3 scum are lurking then I don't see an upside to basing wagons on activity.

This one makes little sense to me. We shouldn't base wagons on activity, therefor we shouldn't eliminate the inactive slots? Isn't that

basing wagons off of activity?

I have my eye on you then.

[fua]

nQ my point is half that I think it’s silly to categorically not lim less active slots and half to be snarky.

I don't know why this game in particular I keep getting misunderstood or misrepresented or whatever, but I did not say we should categorically not lim less active slots. I said I would rather lim a more active slot because it's day 1. What is limming imag, nsg, or redtea going to tell us about the rest of the gamestate? This early on, I'm more interested in voting a scummy slot who has actually interacted with other slots and might give us some associations day 2. And let's say we do wagon inactive scum. Then the rest of the team has carte blanche to bus their buddy and get sweet towncred. Whereas with an active slot, bussing is a lot harder and there can be clearer lines drawn after the flip irrespective of alignment.

I'm just saying there is more than likely scum amongst the semi-to-very active players, so even if there's also scum in the inactive players, why should we focus there on day 1?

Ah, low hanging fruit makes sense. Well, it is an early day 1 list. I can assure you people will be moving as the game progresses.

As for the matter of nQ, I feel like my thoughts remain largely unchanged. Even some recent posts ping me as... egh.

My take is that we shouldn't lim any of the inactive slots today. This isn't a game suffering for activity, so unless we think all 3 scum are lurking then I don't see an upside to basing wagons on activity.

This one makes little sense to me. We shouldn't base wagons on activity, therefor we shouldn't eliminate the inactive slots? Isn't that

basing wagons off of activity?

I think it's pretty obvious what I meant here. I don't know if you're misrepping on purpose or I'm just chronically not clear this game. Benefit of the doubt that it's the latter: If you look at the rest of the context of that discussion, you'll see I'm advocating that we not use inactivity as a reason to wagon someone this early in the game. Plus the above response to implosion.

NQ gets towncred for suggesting an active slot lim over an inactive one BTW. I like this post.

[implosion]

I still quite think nQ is town.

[Tejate Raichu]

nQ my point is half that I think it’s silly to categorically not lim less active slots and half to be snarky.

I don't know why this game in particular I keep getting misunderstood or misrepresented or whatever, but I did not say we should categorically not lim less active slots. I said I would rather lim a more active slot because it's day 1. What is limming imag, nsg, or redtea going to tell us about the rest of the gamestate? This early on, I'm more interested in voting a scummy slot who has actually interacted with other slots and might give us some associations day 2. And let's say we do wagon inactive scum. Then the rest of the team has carte blanche to bus their buddy and get sweet towncred. Whereas with an active slot, bussing is a lot harder and there can be clearer lines drawn after the flip irrespective of alignment.

I'm just saying there is more than likely scum amongst the semi-to-very active players, so even if there's also scum in the inactive players, why should we focus there on day 1?

Ah, low hanging fruit makes sense. Well, it is an early day 1 list. I can assure you people will be moving as the game progresses.

As for the matter of nQ, I feel like my thoughts remain largely unchanged. Even some recent posts ping me as... egh.

My take is that we shouldn't lim any of the inactive slots today. This isn't a game suffering for activity, so unless we think all 3 scum are lurking then I don't see an upside to basing wagons on activity.

This one makes little sense to me. We shouldn't base wagons on activity, therefor we shouldn't eliminate the inactive slots? Isn't that

basing wagons off of activity?

I think it's pretty obvious what I meant here. I don't know if you're misrepping on purpose or I'm just chronically not clear this game. Benefit of the doubt that it's the latter: If you look at the rest of the context of that discussion, you'll see I'm advocating that we not use inactivity as a reason to wagon someone this early in the game. Plus the above response to implosion.

I agree to the extent that at least one scum is actively posting. That doesn't make inactive posters non-viable candidates. They are slots who, by nature have revealed very very little of their hand. Inactivity is not a scumtell, but it's not a towntell either. We should be pushing to get more info from them rather than tossing them in the townbin because of your theory that all 3 scum

might

be active.

[numberQ]

It's less a townbin and more of a nullbin, but sure, I agree for the most part. We should certainly be trying to get info out of them. Maybe I was wrong to use the word wagon, because I do think wagons are pretty much always a good thing for a healthy town. But people were saying these slots should be today's lim, which is what I disagree with.

[Tejate Raichu]

Regardless, we still have quite a bit of time to think about wagons. I mainly disagree with taking such a stance 48 hours into the game when we still have like 11 days to make our final decision.

[Tejate Raichu]

Ah, low hanging fruit makes sense. Well, it is an early day 1 list. I can assure you people will be moving as the game progresses.

As for the matter of nQ, I feel like my thoughts remain largely unchanged. Even some recent posts ping me as... egh.

My take is that we shouldn't lim any of the inactive slots today. This isn't a game suffering for activity, so unless we think all 3 scum are lurking then I don't see an upside to basing wagons on activity.

This one makes little sense to me. We shouldn't base wagons on activity, therefor we shouldn't eliminate the inactive slots? Isn't that

basing wagons off of activity?

I have my eye on you then.

Just out of curiosity, what do you think my flip will actually prove? Let's go into a hypothetical. Let's say I am the wagon right now, I am hammered, and I flip town. What information do you gain from this beyond my role and alignment?

[Cephrir]

I think we should just elim the scummiest player. Shrug emoji.

[Tejate Raichu]

I'm personally of the camp that it's good to think about the worst case scenario beforehand. If it were always as easy as just eliminate the scum, town's winrate would be through the roof.

[fua]

Ah, low hanging fruit makes sense. Well, it is an early day 1 list. I can assure you people will be moving as the game progresses.

As for the matter of nQ, I feel like my thoughts remain largely unchanged. Even some recent posts ping me as... egh.

My take is that we shouldn't lim any of the inactive slots today. This isn't a game suffering for activity, so unless we think all 3 scum are lurking then I don't see an upside to basing wagons on activity.

This one makes little sense to me. We shouldn't base wagons on activity, therefor we shouldn't eliminate the inactive slots? Isn't that

basing wagons off of activity?

I have my eye on you then.

Just out of curiosity, what do you think my flip will actually prove? Let's go into a hypothetical. Let's say I am the wagon right now, I am hammered, and I flip town. What information do you gain from this beyond my role and alignment?

Cephrir is likely null, anyone who has a townread on you from early on is townlike, and NumberQ is skewed a little more towards scum than anything else. You flipping scum would give a lot more information because it sheds light on Ceph’s alignment further and basically confirms nQ as town unless you’re very good at bussing.

[fua]

I think pushing for someone inactive to go a long time before the day ends is scum-indicative and an attempt to avoid really solving or looking like you’re actively analyzing the game because there’s so little content from them in the first place.

[fua]

At worst on Day 1 an inactive vote should probably be a consensus to avoid a no lim before running out of time.

[Tejate Raichu]

That's not a bad answer. Thank you for indulging.

I would also like to note that I don't think it's just them being inactive. The reason NSG in particular has discussion around their slot isn't just their inactivity, but the posts that they -did- make combined with their inactivity. It's why I feel like my read on them is very null, there's not much to go on, and what there is to go on I am not a fan of. Redtea I'll admit seems to mainly be SR'd for their inactivity, combined with the fact that people are townreading redtea despite their inactivity. imaginality's only post besides their entry is a wall of text about math which I am not sure is entirely correct, so I can't really say my read on them is much sharper than it was when I threw them in unranked.

I'm not saying we absolutely should push one of these people, but it would certainly be nice to see more content before we have to decide.

[Amazonian Legends]

I feel like crap (tested negative today though), so I'm not sure how much I'm going to get done today before I pretend to play D&D in a bit. I've skimmed a little while at work, but I did want to be a bit self-indulgent and address something first.

Implosion - Yes, you used to be able to town bin me super early. Like pretty much within my first couple of posts.

Ceph - I know you want more from me and probably expect something different too.

I'm sorry (and not sorry) that I'm not as easy to read as I used to be. I'm not the same in real life person I was 6 months ago, let alone the same mafia player I was years ago. I can't be that emotionally invested or play with the same devotion or intensity I used to play with. It sucked. I was a triggered mess who wasn't pleasant in the game or out of the game a lot of the time, and getting that invested affected my real life negatively. I took a several year break, and when I came back I decided the only way I could play mafia is if I don't get so invested that it impacts my life, and I have to not care so much about being townread or being non-miselimable. (And having a good number of people tell me their goal was to be the first person to hand me my first true miselim caused massive paranoia all the time.).

I have failed at that a couple times, but I am working towards playing the game in a way that works for me and is fun. I know that makes me harder to read if you were dependent on the other stuff, and I'm sorry about that. But, if you read me based on how I look at the game and people, a lot of that hasn't changed. I imagine I'll do more as the game progresses that will be satisfactory, but I've never been much of a first half of day one player.

And if you're like oh Tammy that's easy to say, I do have recent games. My most recent game is the Trust Fall game that NumberQ modded a few months ago. And I'm not saying you have to townread me because my recent games look like this; I'm just saying adjust your expectations because I'm not the same as I used to be. I am town here though, and maybe if you're lucky you'll get to see what a travesty my game will be when I finally roll scum again lol.

To the point about only interacting with morph or whatever ceph said, and shirou's comment about dancing around morph, sure there was some early interaction that was a lot, but I've interacted with most people here, so I'm not real sure what that point was about.

[Amazonian Legends]

when i read through your iso it felt like there was a lot of questioning or like, "why do this"/"what gain from it" but it wasn't quite like a fos but sort of just... a presence.

This right here is what started my suspicion on numberq. I read a post that was like "what does shirou gain..." and it felt kinda sideline snipy which triggered my suspicion. Not all of his posts were like that but Ydrasse pointing out the same thing that I had wondered about is again why I like ydrasse and want to think she's town. Which again is a terrible dangerous trap I should not fall into, but there it is.

[Amazonian Legends]

And this (plus the rest of the discussion he had with me after this) helped me solidify the SR. He oscillated between disproportionately hostile and dismissive.

Hostile: 288, 312
Dismissive: 277, 294, 296 (actually a response to fua)
Hostile AND dismissive: 324

Note how nowhere in there is a single actual refutation of my read, just consistently saying that I have no reason to come after him. My reasoning at the time was of course mostly gut based. But then why have that kind of reaction to it? It's not scummy to have an emotional reaction and it's not scummy to argue against a scumread on you. What's scummy is the dissonance between them in Ceph's posting here.

Okay the only thing that really makes sense to me here is your argument that there's not a refutation of the read but a focus on there being a lack of reasoning or not good enough reasoning. I'm not sure how much weight it has, but I understand that bit at least.

But why are you including hostile and dismissive as part of your reasoning that he's scum? Town can be extremely hostile and dismissive when incorrectly scum read, and none of those actually feel hostile. Do you really think these things are more likely to come from scum?

[implosion]

No need to apologize for any of that, I'm glad you're engaging in a healthier way.