Mini 2254 | Subreddit uPick | Fin

[mastina]

Hi I am a mason.
(Btw I'm encouraged, but not mandated, to practice succinctness.)

[mastina]

Proxy vote to: Lady Lambdadelta

I'll vote whoever LLD does (even if it's me).

Peace offering: I promise never to vote LLD prior to D3-at-earliest (barring guilties on her). I reserve right to state suspicion, but promise not to act on it, and the proxy vote is proof of commitment to this promise.

[mastina]

T

:

Rogue > Suripoko > skitter30

T?

:

StrangeMatter

S

:

SirCakez (always)

[mastina]

Peace offering: I promise never to vote LLD prior to D3-at-earliest (barring guilties on her). I reserve right to state suspicion, but promise not to act on it, and the proxy vote is proof of commitment to this promise.

ok, why

I badly wronged LLD. I thought it'd end that game; it didn't, as LLD's (valid) grief carried over into multiple future games. So, with ~D4 as lylo, I'm promising not to vote her until a day before, at minimum. Thus, peace offering.

[mastina]

Peace offering: I promise never to vote LLD prior to D3-at-earliest (barring guilties on her). I reserve right to state suspicion, but promise not to act on it, and the proxy vote is proof of commitment to this promise.

ok, why

I badly wronged LLD. I thought it'd end that game; it didn't, as LLD's (valid) grief carried over into multiple future games. So, with ~D4 as lylo, I'm promising not to vote her until a day before, at minimum. Thus, peace offering.

(Basically, I legit am scared to play with LLD now, not for her->me, but me->her, with me ruining her games. I was worried me /inning would cause her to /out. So I need to do

something

.)

[mastina]

except when she's sm

sm?

If you think that someone is a member of the mafia, voting them out is playing to your win condition if you are a member of the town.

There's 3 mafia. I can scumhunt without voting LLD, regardless of my read on her. (Also my proxy vote's not permanent.)

how serious is 20?

Dead serious, albeit accidentally:
I

meant

to include names of players who hadn't posted (which would've lessened seriousness somewhat), but since I forgot...

VOTE: The Bombay
(proxy-LLD, but also, scumread anyway, readslist next post)

[mastina]

Maybe a flavor claim would be in order

Spoiler: These Images' Common Thread

(also a role 'crumb)

T++

:

Rogue > Suripoko > jjh927 > LLD > skitter30

T

:

T3

T?

:

StrangeMatter

N-T:

Dwlee99

N

:

Shiro

N-S:

Ivan

S

:

SirCakez (always) > The Bombay

[mastina]

Also I don't think 3 mafia is confirmed?

What 13p mini theme doesn't have 3 mafia? It's a safe assumption.

What's your line here on Bombay then? Guessing it's different to LLD's

I don't think their reads are genuine. Their reads all look faked, surface-level, and forced. It looks more like trying to appear as scumhunting, rather than being genuine scumhunting.

[mastina]

I have no idea where the townreads on Rogue are coming from.

I have no idea where a lack of Rogue townreads would come from.

Why you have me as town but unsure here?

Gut, which feels appropriate. You looked vaguely town by gut, but not strongly enough to be locktown.

Which reads in particular, mastina?

All of them? 44, 83, 107, 162. Did I miss any? Because

all

of those suck, and are precisely what I said: I don't think any of their reads are genuine. Their reads all look faked, surface-level, and forced. It looks more like trying to appear as scumhunting, rather than being genuine scumhunting.

vote:dwlee

While I'm not convinced, a promise is a promise;
VOTE: Dwlee99
It's at least

plausible

Dwlee could be scum. (Dwlee's mostly a null, the townread I had was mostly Bombay's shitty Dwlee vote.)

[mastina]

mastina i gotta say i disagree with you on the bombay's reads looking forced, and i'm not really into this whole vote-proxy thing either

Respectfully, you also think LLD is scum, and I very much don't, so. You and I seem to be on entirely opposite pages.

[mastina]

44 was not a read. It was a response. I don't like the idea of the proxy vote, but I was not saying that you doing the proxy vote was scummy.

83 was not a read. It was a joke vote, because I got rick rolled. That was made explicit in post 85 and again in 87.

Perhaps my usage of the term 'reads' was too restrictive.

I didn't strictly mean reads, so much as "content of posts".

Your 44 and 83 might not be reads (and yes I am fully aware they were not reads)--but the content of the posts still fit the same pattern as your stated reads. As a reiterating, I found both 44 and 83? To be: not genuine. Looks faked, surface-level interactions, and forced. More like trying to appear as town(/scumhunting), rather than being genuine. I linked them because they still fit the pattern shown even if they are strictly speaking not reads in of themselves. They still show the lack of genuine depth I'd expect from a town player.

[mastina]

Well, FYI, Mastina frequently memeclaims mason, particularly if she is in a neighbourhood that is not a masonry, although inevitably also in the event that she was an actual mason or similarly functioning role (however the likelihood of this scenario is statistically low)

It's more likely than you'd think, statistically speaking.

Also books says Mastina is bad, trying to hide herself and all associates behind voting only with LLD.

I've plenty of associatives even while having my vote proxied to LLD. You can see them in my iso.

So Rouge made not one, not two, but three rickroll style posts 81, 95, 102, and I responded with joke anger at having been successfully rickrolled. Rogue is your towniest of town reads, but me joking back around with him is part of your evidence that I am the scummiest player in the game?

Yes--Rogue doing the joke was town indicative because the entire thing was natural and lighthearted and fit the perspective of a town player who was just vibing.

Your response to the joke was stilted, artificial, and forced. An attempt to match the vibe, rather than being a part of the vibe (Rogue).

[mastina]

Spoiler: This is too long and I'm too lazy right now to make it more succinct so I'm going to spoil it

Tbh this must be something new Mastina Is doing cuz I haven’t seen it before.
Unless this is Mastina trying to pocket LLD

It's an LLD-specific thing. In a sense, yes, attempting to pocket LLD, but not restricted to alignment. I was planning on making that post regardless of my alignment the moment I noticed LLD was signed up for a game that I joined

after

she did. Given my past experiences with LLD in the last year, and how she was in the game

before

me, I genuinely was afraid *I* would cause her to /out thanks to me. She didn't, but I felt I needed to do

something

to make sure that she never would have the desire to /out when seeing me /in. You may note that my /in for this game?

/in subreddit

if you'll have me

.

"if you'll have me".

Cabd and ffery have absolutely zero reason to ever

not

have me. They've literally invited me multiple times to play their game and had I not /inned, might have genuinely asked me to play anyway.

So if my "/in if you'll have me" wasn't about morph the cat, who was it for?

Pre-ins:

Lady Lambdadelta

/conform

It was because I saw this and I wanted LLD to have priority over me.

And I didn't want it to be a case of "LLD signed up for the game, didn't check who signed up after, and upon seeing I was playing once the game started, decided to replace out"--which very well could have happened. If LLD genuinely thought that me playing with her would not be fun, would be a bad time, then if she didn't notice me during signups and only noticed me after the game had begun, she genuinely probably would have replaced out.

Thus.

To keep her in the game, and to mend the bridge I burnt.

Peace offering.

i think she's ignoring the context of multiple rickrolls to call bombay's rogue vote 'bad' when it makes sense in context.

I'm not ignoring the context.

I'm saying that Bombay's justification of it still doesn't make it fit even in context. The vote makes

sense

in context. That doesn't make it

fit

in context. I'm not sure how to word that but I've made it fairly clear. My point isn't that "the vote shouldn't have been made at all"; my point is that "the vote doesn't look like it came from town". It wasn't the presence of the vote (a vote in that way makes sense in the context); it was the

way it was handled

(it didn't fit in the context).

I was in a "monkery" with Mastina, and she did not claim to be a mason (or a monk for that matter). To be fair, it makes more sense to not claim it when you are actually in one.
This is a pointless observation. If she fake claims it enough for you to say this, it is moot. I just found it interesting in an NAI kind of way.
~Luke

HURT: The Bombay

To be clear, this is a scumclaim in of itself from Luke. Both in portrayal of that game and in content from Luke. I don't believe this is a town-Lukewarm.

I genuinely wouldn't be removing my vote from Bombay if not for the promise to LLD but I'm so tempted to break it

just

because of how strong my scumread on Bombay is. (To be clear, I'd have voted Bombay even without the LLD sheep because the only other vote I'd have made would be SirCakez but my Bombay scumread has always been stronger.)

[mastina]

(sorry this post's alarmingly long, not sure how to cut it down tho)

I think that once she gave the explanation, she kinda had to stick with it even if lld moved on

That implies a scum perspective.

To give a viewpoint

not

biased towards scum, I had a genuine scumread on Bombay that happened to, by pleasant coincidence, overlap with my promise to LLD.

While I moved my vote as part of my promise to LLD, without the promise, I'd have remained on Bombay, because they are my strongest scumread.

I'm not sure why she felt the need to say she had independant reasons (maybe she didnt want to look like she sheeping lld too much? Idk)

You can find the answer in my very first post where I give the promise to LLD:

I reserve right to state suspicion, but promise not to act on it

I reserve the right to state suspicion. While that is

largely

in regards to LLD, it is not

specific

to her.

I reserve the right to state suspicion on players LLD is not voting; I reserve the right to state a lack of belief in the player LLD is voting to be scum (I would sheep LLD if she voted, say, Rogue right now even though Rogue is my top townread); I reserve the right to specify that I have independent reasons for scumreading the slot LLD votes while sheeping her.

mastina, why is Suripoko your second best town read as of 172?

It's hard to get more town than Suripoko has from 7 posts at the time. From Suripoko's first post I already had a townread. The Tiger-bad, the decision to post in images (which is obviously not a real post restriction), the view that skitter is scum (while I disagree, I don't see that perspective ever coming from the hydra if they were scum), 35, and the vote on me (which I know to be wrong but I don't see Pooky as doing if he's scum).

Now granted, it's not as strong of a read as I'd

prefer

, but for a D1 that's less than 48 hours old? What amounts to a Gut++ read (not just Gut because there's reasons to it but also more gut than not) is more than I can say for most players.

I think jjh is town but this is D1 and jjh can do this much as scum on D1; I think LLD is town but LLD is top-tier as a scum player and this is within her scum range (well everything is but this would be pathetically easy for her); I think skitter is town but skitter's lack of synergy with my reads could indicate her being scum. I townread all of them, but they're ordered by the strength of how strong I think they are by probability vs. possibility. By probability vs. possibility, Suripoko's townread is stronger because while Pooky is versatile as scum, I don't think he's capable of doing what he's done here as scum. It's

possible

given the low number of posts and choice of posting method, but not

probable

.

[mastina]

Fwiw i'm like 95% sure the tiger bad was a meme and not indicative of what they actually thoght abt my alignment at the time, but i could be wrong

Still town given the timing.

*why* is it not a vote that doesnt come from town?

I didn't say it's a vote that doesn't come from town.
I said it was a vote which

didn't

come from town.

It's a vote that plausibly

could

come from town, but the

way

it was done makes it be a scum vote, rather than a town vote.

I really don't know how to explain it and you keep on trying to phrase it in a way that takes away from my point and frame it in a context that's different from the actual context.

*why* is that a scumclaim from luke? Why is this not something town-luke would think?

Because it's an incredibly un-Luketown analysis to make, basically.

Spoiler: Press X to Doubt on Lukewarm:

I saw jjh's post that you claim mason frequently, especially if you are actually a mason or in a neighborhood -> remembered that I was in a monkery with you, and don't remember you claiming mason or monk day 1 -> thought it was interesting, but also that in context it made sense that you did not claim in that game -> realized that it meant nothing about your alignment this game -> commented anyways, because I have little self-control on spewing my thoughts to the thread.

Okay, so if you remembered that game, why didn't you remember this from it? Subject: Not Quite Normal -- The Monastery

Hi guys I am a mason.


















(Not really, I don't have the god-luck to be a mason-monk, this is just me making my standard mason joke due to being a werewolf-mason.)

That was literally my first post in the monk topic. Subject: Not Quite Normal -- The Monastery

Hello -- should we be talking in here ?

Sure. I propose that we basically treat ourselves as if we're the mafia. Which is to say, hunt essentially exclusively for the werewolves. We might not be able to trust each other to not be mafia, but if we act as if we are the mafia and hunt primarily for the werewolves (with a secondary focus on mafia but mafia-hunting backseat to werewolf-hunting), we should be able to get the most out of our werewolf-masonry by placing a heavy amount of trust in each other.

This was still in the spirit of the Mason Gambit in placing trust in the members of the topic.

[mastina]

VOTE: The Bombay

[mastina]

VOTE: SirCakez
Not as good as Bombay imo but hey I'm down to wagon my second scumread.

[mastina]

V/LA 48 hours

(Closing Wednesday into opening Thursday = can't post at all on Wednesday.)
Won't be able to post at all on Wednesday, but I'll force posts later tonight and on Thursday regardless of how much I don't feel like them.

[mastina]

Spoiler: Response to Ivan

You come into the day after sheeping LLD on an incorrect wagon, but have nothing to say about that state of affairs.

Why would I have something to say?

I had to keep my promise to sheep LLD.

I didn't have a strong read on Dwlee--I'd not vote Dwlee on my own, but it was at least

plausible

for Dwlee to be scum. I didn't think it was

probable

, but I had to keep my promise even though my preference was Bombay or SirCakez.

Now unchained from the promise, I'm following what I'd have done without the promise.

You return immediately to your previous day's scum read despite new information from flips.

What new information is provided from the flips? Nothing in Dwlee town (Dwlee was null) or skitter town (skitter was town) changes my previous reads; it only strengthens them. Bombay and SirCakez don't become less scum from those; they become more scum.

Then despite the plurality rules in play, you immediately jump onto a purported secondary scum read (that has absolutely nothing in your posting to persuade anyone of its likelihood).

I have good reason to sheep jjh, actually. And I admit it's a bit underhanded, but I've good reason to make sure a scumread is the top elimination by plurality rules--plurality is here whether we like it or not, and I'm not going to let a townread get voted out by plurality.

Speaking of which:

No probing into your previous strong town read of Suripoko despite their obnoxious hammer.

Funny choice of words you use there. (I am rather big on word choice. Autistic thing.)

You call the hammer 'obnoxious' rather than calling it 'scumclaim', 'anti-town', or even 'scummy'.

That

you

don't call it any of those should tell you my answer: you're right, the hammer is obnoxious. It was not scummy, it was not a scumclaim, it was arguably not even anti-town. So why would I question them on it when it is none of those things?

Outside of the spoiler tho, I'll add that one thing

has

changed overnight, and it is in part from this post: Ivan moves from Nullscum to a proper scumread. Not SirCakez/Bombay levels, but also more than a scumlean. SirCakez/Bombay are confscum/strong scum, but Ivan's still scum.

The proof is in the usage of the word 'obnoxious' rather than anything indicating a view of Suripoko being scum. 'Obnoxious' is actually a descriptor you use when

you believe

(or, more damningly,

you know

)

the slot to be town

.

No probing into your previous strong town read of Suripoko despite their

obnoxious

hammer.

This word usage is literally a scumclaim from Ivan, because it's a scumslip of knowing Suripoko to be town.

Add in the defense of SirCakez (who is lockscum), and you've got a damn good candidate for final scum. Speaking of which tho:

I need to go back to the drawing board here because I felt pretty good that Dwlee was scum and obv not
It drives me crazy that they were lying about the chess and maybe that's what I was feeling there

I'm liking my SirCakez vote a whole lot more than I already was, thanks for the idea jjh. <3

[mastina]

Ok but regardless of whose to blame that hammer still sucked

Note this wording, too.
'still sucked'.

If Suripoko were scum, the hammer would not have sucked--it'd be Suripoko playing to wincon.

A hammer sucking implies the hammerer is the same alignment of the player being hammered--town.

Both Ivan and SirCakez have used words with zero connotations to scumminess/scumness of the slot and which actually have the opposite connotation--implying Suripoko to be town.

Coincidence?

I think not!

There's a damn good reason I think they're both scum here.

[mastina]

(Note, while technically Rogue's usage of 'awful' for the hammer also fits the same category as Ivan's 'obnoxious' and SirCakez's 'sucked', Rogue isn't lumped with them because Rogue's not voting off of it being an awful hammer, Rogue's voting off of it being an awful hammer

with prior experience

with Pooky and awful hammers. SirCakez and Ivan however do not have that.)

Suspecting there’s likely one (two has potential but not as likely) of {Rogue, SirCakez, That Idiot Ivan} as said above. I want to look more into these right now, though continuing on a conversation about this is pointless and a waste of time.

Might I bring you to the point that both SirCakez and Ivan have basically scumslipped that they know Suripoko is town and that Ivan is defending SirCakez and that both are voting Suripoko when there's plurality rules in effect in spite of them having used words which betray their knowledge of Suripoko being town?

I tell you, they're both scum.

VOTE: StrangeMatter

That Bombay is voting you after you've fingered 2/3 should tell you who the third is.

It's literally {SirCakez, Ivan, The Bombay} here as the scumteam.

[mastina]

Do you have box

I realize you asked everyone to claim but I was actually planning on not claiming it openly, not yet at least.

But since you probably don't want to wait until like D3 to receive the news, no, I've not had a box at any point.

[mastina]

When your reads and Skitter were on "entirely opposite pages," I feel like you might want to question your reads when they choose to kill Skitter.

skitter had me as scum--that makes me disinclined to believe that scum killed her for read accuracy and inclined to believe they killed her for being one of the towniest slots in the game, but less likely to be protected just because she's not accurate in her reads.

Even if I didn't reject your entire premise that I'm allowed to find something simultaneously scummy and obnoxious

And yet you said 'obnoxious' without saying 'scummy'.

If it was scummy

and

obnoxious, why didn't you SAY "scummy and obnoxious" or some variant thereof? You said 'obnoxious', and only obnoxious. You said nothing of the scumminess.

[mastina]

My role allowed a neighborhood to form with two other players last night that persists into today. By foregoing posting there until night ended, I was able to get a parity cop result on the other two players. LLD and Shiro share an alignment.

I am soft-counterclaiming this

.

Not a hard-counterclaim, but:

I am a communicative role

, similar to a neighborizer (albeit not as strong).

Through my role,

I know that there is another investigative player in the game

(who claimed to me specifically). This player I 100% trust to be town absolutely.

Between Bombay's claim, Ivan's claim, the investigative player that I know, and Dwlee, there's no way all four of them are town, and I believe Ivan is scum specifically because an ungated parity cop that cannot be stopped, when Dwlee was already a basically ungated full cop? Not something which is going to exist.

I believe that Ivan's role was designed as a town role, so I believe the parity cop is real. But while I believe Ivan's realclaiming a parity cop, I don't believe Ivan is town from it.

I was planning on cheekily claiming if there was ever heavy suspicion on me, "I guarantee you that my role is a town one, I can mod-confirm it to be so". And then pointing this out. But since Ivan has claimed a Parity Cop, I need to point this out: there was a mod post saying "all roles are designed as town, and then modified as needed". (I can't find it, I think morph either edited it out or deleted it, but it was there during the pregame, everyone who checked the thread then can confirm. OH WAIT I found it.)

Alignments will be randomized after the roles are initially designed,

and roles will be revised as needed based on alignments

.

This ensures that subreddit flavor has no correlation with the alignment rolls. Any subreddit in the game can be any alignment.

Alignments are given AFTER roles are designed.

You can have a Doctor, Cop, and Vig, all designed as town roles, end up as being scum roles--and then, still as the Doctor, Cop, and Vig, be modified as the Scum Doctor, Scum Cop, and scum Vig, to be revised as needed to make them be balanced.

So Ivan is probably truthfully claiming with the parity cop.

But lying by omission by leaving out the extras of the role. Rolecopping both individuals, roleblocking both individuals, redirecting/busdriving/something else both individuals, there's any number of hidden modifications to the role you can make where scum has incentive to use it, and in fact, the target selection makes me think that it was done for precisely that extra. Keeping LLD in reigns makes a lot of sense and gaining something on Shiro also makes a lot of sense.

The target selection makes perfect sense for scum who have extra to the role beyond parity cop, but not make sense for town who is genuine in being nothing but a parity cop.

Why does the target selection make no sense for town?

Because LLD was basically universally townread and a strong player who was already pushing hard. If skitter wasn't the nightkill, there's a very high chance that it'd have been LLD who was killed instead.

LLD was always going to be town in that parity cop result, and we'd learn nothing from it, because she already was insanely town.

And Shiro adds nothing to that.

Tell me--

was there so much as a single player pushing Shiro

at all

on D1?

Because I'm pretty damn sure that not a single person was pushing Shiro on D1, and there was nobody even pushing Shiro on D2. Nobody pushing Shiro means that conftowning Shiro doesn't actually change the gamestate. Shiro was at no risk of being mislimmed here as town, LLD was at no risk of being mislimmed here as town; the result did nothing to change the gamestate.

Ivan as scum loses

nothing

from giving the result.

What does Ivan as scum gain from the result?

Whatever Ivan's extra beyond the parity cop is, for a start.
And then the pocketing of LLD (who is, as mentioned, strongly pushing) as well as Shiro.

VOTE: That Idiot Ivan
Basically confscum here.

[mastina]

I don't think it's fake. There's no reason to conf. town me as a parity cop in that way.

I don't think it's fake either.

But there very much IS reason to "conftown" you (quotes, because you already were conftown).

All roles in this game were

designed as town roles

.
But then, after being assigned an alignment,

adjusted based off of alignment

.
There's literally half a dozen modifications to the role which could benefit the scum. Parity cop, but rolecops the targets to give scum the info. Parity cop, but roleblocks the targets to prevent them from acting. Parity cop, but loverizes the targets to allow for them to both die at the same time. Parity cop, but busdrives the targets. And so on and so forth. You don't know about them because Ivan isn't going to claim the scum addition to the town role, Ivan's only going to claim the original role.

Beyond that?

You were a top candidate for being nightkilled N1. The scum killed skitter N1 instead--but why did they not kill you N1? Because they were already targeting you with a role. You were targeted by a role and as such scum had reason to not kill you N1.

The parity cop helps pocket you, when you are already a strong pusher--you literally basically singlehandedly pushed through the Dwlee elimination. You pushed through ONE elimination; tell me, LLD: what stops scum from trying to pocket you in order to push through more?

I do not believe that the mods would have allowed us + Dwlee's cop + a parity cop to all fire night one.

Then there is a fourth investigative role ON TOP OF THESE THREE OTHERS CLAIMED, which I know the player of and I trust that player to be town.

That's

four

investigative role claims, one of which being a Cop (proven from Dwlee) and a second being a Parity Cop (Ivan's claim) that is also a neighborizer who cannot be blocked or redirected or otherwise interfered with.

[mastina]

If you do, right now I'm calling Ivan and shiro my masons.

Shiro is, Ivan isn't.

There's literally no way the mod includes an ungated parity cop-neighborizer who cannot have their action fail, ON TOP OF a very powerful cop (Dwlee) ON TOP OF another investigative (player I trust to be town), ON TOP OF Bombay's investigative, all as town.

Yes, you think Bombay is scum, but that's still an ungated parity cop-neighborizer who cannot have their action fail, ON TOP OF a very powerful cop (Dwlee) ON TOP OF another investigative (player I trust to be town).

that's really gutsy for bombay or ivan to fakeclaim though.

Was I literally the only one who read morph the cat's post on how roles were designed?

Alignments will be randomized after the roles are initially designed,

and roles will be revised as needed based on alignments

.

This ensures that subreddit flavor has no correlation with the alignment rolls. Any subreddit in the game can be any alignment.

EVERY role in this game, every single one, was designed first as a town role. All 13 players received town roles.

The three scum roles were, after being designed as scum roles, then modified based on alignment.

The modifications to the role would mean that the original, town-designed (and thus, town-appearing in a massclaim) role, would still look like town when claimed because it was town...but that the scum role would then have something extra beyond the claimed role.

Everyone who saw morph the cat's post should've known this.

How the fuck was I the one to notice this when I'm prone to missing vital setup info? I literally saw that before I had a role PM (which is why I was planning on, if I was ever seriously suspected, claiming "trust me, I guarantee that I have a town role, I can modconfirm it to be so", and if pressed, bringing up the post I quoted.)

[mastina]

what no that's obviously not what I was saying
Suripoko being scum does not make the hammer good?? maybe from their PoV but I'm not in their PoV

But that's the thing. You're accusing Suripoko of making a bad hammer, but if Suripoko is scum then the hammer isn't bad, it's good; it can only be a bad hammer if Suripoko is town. So from your point of view, calling the hammer bad is a scumslip of knowing Suripoko is town.

if Ivan's scum, what's the motivation in making me confirmed town?

I can think of one.

I can think of three.

If they are scum why pick me for that gambit?

You were under zero pressure D1 (and for that matter, D2).

If there were a push on you as scum D1, then conftowning you might lose something.

But with no push on you D1, conftowning you loses nothing.

Conftowning a player means that they go from mislimmable to not-mislimmable.

But if you were not going to be a mislim without a claim, then the conftown doesn't do anything.

It generally seems like a bad gambit and their interaction in our neighborhood seems genuine as hell.

Fun fact, Scum Neighborizer is one of the strongest roles in existence (in Normals, it literally has a

higher winrate than scum roleblockers

, higher winrate than scum ninjas, higher winrate than scum strongmen), and the outcome of May and Brendan's Pokemon game is proof enough of that in action.

I wonder why?

(It's because pocketing people in neighborhoods as scum is ridiculously easy.)

[mastina]

what is the motivation for Ivan to fakeclaim as scum here? it does nothing for them

Realclaiming a mod-given role that has an extra effect that they didn't claim which pockets the player who singlehandedly forced through a Dwlee elimination sounds like pretty damn strong motivation to me.

But then again you're also scum with Ivan, so...

Fuck are you scum?
JJH is so town to me lol

Yes, SirCakez is scum.

And yes, jjh is VERY town--which should tell you something.

If you believe jjh to be town you shouldn't be trusting Ivan to be town.

[mastina]

Alas, totally MIA on her part.

V/LA 48 hours

(Closing Wednesday into opening Thursday = can't post at all on Wednesday.)
Won't be able to post at all on Wednesday, but I'll force posts later tonight and on Thursday regardless of how much I don't feel like them.

(Ended up unable to post on Thursday, sorry, but.) LLD you KNOW that this wasn't limited to this game.

Mastina's reads this game have made sense and she's pushing on Cakez/Bombay...

I also have Suripoko as one of my strongest townreads and have the entire game, so...

Hell,

I probably would have killed you over Skitter as well

(but probably Rogue over you).

You have actively and loudly pushed

me in every single game we have ever played in together. I would rather not have you here to do that again if I really were scum and had a choice in who was here.

LLD, who wrestles the thread hard to push through her scum reads

, who in prone to scum reading me, and has already voiced suspicions on me, or Skitter, who is repeatedly defending me at every turn.

This is why Ivan is scum btw.

Bombay's reasons here aren't limited to Bombay.

Basically every player in the game has identical sentiments--LLD has loudly pushed. LLD wrestles the thread hard to push her scumreads. LLD is prone to scumreading scum. This, REGARDLESS of who is scum in the game. Add in that LLD was already obvtown, and the question becomes:

who has motivation to keep LLD alive over skitter?

How about the person intending to hard-pocket her via a claim in a neighborhood of their creation who targeted her D1?

[mastina]

Mastina being a nonentity concerns me.

V/LA 48 hours

(Closing Wednesday into opening Thursday = can't post at all on Wednesday.)
Won't be able to post at all on Wednesday, but I'll force posts later tonight and on Thursday regardless of how much I don't feel like them.

Check my posts both before and after the V/LA and I dare you to say I was a nonentity given the length of D1. (As a reminder, D1 lasted five days. D1 lasted less than a week. D1 lasted 120 hours.)

[mastina]

Oh I meant to say this but obviously, I don't think the scumteam is {Bombay, Ivan, SirCakez} since Bombay and Ivan are pretty transparently not scum together.

One of them is town, the other is scum, pretty much guaranteed.

Ivan and SirCakez are far far far more obviously scumbuddies and Ivan's claim is far far far more likely to be scum than town so I favor Ivan as scum over Bombay as scum but I do admit that my solve isn't possible and that there's a third scum who was outside of it. I've been focused elsewhere but it won't take me long to recalibrate and find the third.

[mastina]

Even if I didn't reject your entire premise that I'm allowed to find something simultaneously scummy and obnoxious

And yet you said 'obnoxious' without saying 'scummy'.

If it was scummy

and

obnoxious, why didn't you SAY "scummy and obnoxious" or some variant thereof? You said 'obnoxious', and only obnoxious. You said nothing of the scumminess.

I don't think it's fake. There's no reason to conf. town me as a parity cop in that way.

I don't think it's fake either.

But there very much IS reason to "conftown" you (quotes, because you already were conftown).

All roles in this game were

designed as town roles

.
But then, after being assigned an alignment,

adjusted based off of alignment

.
There's literally half a dozen modifications to the role which could benefit the scum. Parity cop, but rolecops the targets to give scum the info. Parity cop, but roleblocks the targets to prevent them from acting. Parity cop, but loverizes the targets to allow for them to both die at the same time. Parity cop, but busdrives the targets. And so on and so forth. You don't know about them because Ivan isn't going to claim the scum addition to the town role, Ivan's only going to claim the original role.

Beyond that?

You were a top candidate for being nightkilled N1. The scum killed skitter N1 instead--but why did they not kill you N1? Because they were already targeting you with a role. You were targeted by a role and as such scum had reason to not kill you N1.

The parity cop helps pocket you, when you are already a strong pusher--you literally basically singlehandedly pushed through the Dwlee elimination. You pushed through ONE elimination; tell me, LLD: what stops scum from trying to pocket you in order to push through more?

I do not believe that the mods would have allowed us + Dwlee's cop + a parity cop to all fire night one.

Then there is a fourth investigative role ON TOP OF THESE THREE OTHERS CLAIMED, which I know the player of and I trust that player to be town.

That's

four

investigative role claims, one of which being a Cop (proven from Dwlee) and a second being a Parity Cop (Ivan's claim) that is also a neighborizer who cannot be blocked or redirected or otherwise interfered with.

My role allowed a neighborhood to form with two other players last night that persists into today. By foregoing posting there until night ended, I was able to get a parity cop result on the other two players. LLD and Shiro share an alignment.

I am soft-counterclaiming this

.

Not a hard-counterclaim, but:

I am a communicative role

, similar to a neighborizer (albeit not as strong).

Through my role,

I know that there is another investigative player in the game

(who claimed to me specifically). This player I 100% trust to be town absolutely.

Between Bombay's claim, Ivan's claim, the investigative player that I know, and Dwlee, there's no way all four of them are town, and I believe Ivan is scum specifically because an ungated parity cop that cannot be stopped, when Dwlee was already a basically ungated full cop? Not something which is going to exist.

I believe that Ivan's role was designed as a town role, so I believe the parity cop is real. But while I believe Ivan's realclaiming a parity cop, I don't believe Ivan is town from it.

I was planning on cheekily claiming if there was ever heavy suspicion on me, "I guarantee you that my role is a town one, I can mod-confirm it to be so". And then pointing this out. But since Ivan has claimed a Parity Cop, I need to point this out: there was a mod post saying "all roles are designed as town, and then modified as needed". (I can't find it, I think morph either edited it out or deleted it, but it was there during the pregame, everyone who checked the thread then can confirm. OH WAIT I found it.)

Alignments will be randomized after the roles are initially designed,

and roles will be revised as needed based on alignments

.

This ensures that subreddit flavor has no correlation with the alignment rolls. Any subreddit in the game can be any alignment.

Alignments are given AFTER roles are designed.

You can have a Doctor, Cop, and Vig, all designed as town roles, end up as being scum roles--and then, still as the Doctor, Cop, and Vig, be modified as the Scum Doctor, Scum Cop, and scum Vig, to be revised as needed to make them be balanced.

So Ivan is probably truthfully claiming with the parity cop.

But lying by omission by leaving out the extras of the role. Rolecopping both individuals, roleblocking both individuals, redirecting/busdriving/something else both individuals, there's any number of hidden modifications to the role you can make where scum has incentive to use it, and in fact, the target selection makes me think that it was done for precisely that extra. Keeping LLD in reigns makes a lot of sense and gaining something on Shiro also makes a lot of sense.

The target selection makes perfect sense for scum who have extra to the role beyond parity cop, but not make sense for town who is genuine in being nothing but a parity cop.

Why does the target selection make no sense for town?

Because LLD was basically universally townread and a strong player who was already pushing hard. If skitter wasn't the nightkill, there's a very high chance that it'd have been LLD who was killed instead.

LLD was always going to be town in that parity cop result, and we'd learn nothing from it, because she already was insanely town.

And Shiro adds nothing to that.

Tell me--

was there so much as a single player pushing Shiro

at all

on D1?

Because I'm pretty damn sure that not a single person was pushing Shiro on D1, and there was nobody even pushing Shiro on D2. Nobody pushing Shiro means that conftowning Shiro doesn't actually change the gamestate. Shiro was at no risk of being mislimmed here as town, LLD was at no risk of being mislimmed here as town; the result did nothing to change the gamestate.

Ivan as scum loses

nothing

from giving the result.

What does Ivan as scum gain from the result?

Whatever Ivan's extra beyond the parity cop is, for a start.
And then the pocketing of LLD (who is, as mentioned, strongly pushing) as well as Shiro.

VOTE: That Idiot Ivan
Basically confscum here.

Gonna carry these over to the next page, too.

[mastina]

T++

:

Rogue > Suripoko > jjh927 > LLD > skitter30

T

:

T3

T?

:

StrangeMatter

N-T:

Dwlee99

N

:

Shiro

N-S:

Ivan

S

:

SirCakez (always) > The Bombay

So Bombay can't be scum with Ivan but Ivan is obviously scum with SirCakez.

Suripoko is hard-townslipped as conftown from SirCakez and Ivan.

Rogue is pretty damn transparently town here.

LLD and Shiro are conftown.

jjh is basically conftown here.

Which means third scum is one of {T3, StrangeMatter}.

[mastina]

SirCakez is concerning.

Why was SirCakez concerning? I don't feel like you've ever elaborated on this and it's just not been talked about it.

Oh it's probably StrangeMatter since this is scum theater here.

It also is proof of why Ivan is scum btw; if SirCakez was so concerning, why was SirCakez not one of Ivan's targets?

[mastina]

This slot is currently calling me confirmed town and trying to make wagons that include neither Shiro nor My vote.

You are townlocking a slot that is hard-pocketing you as scum (Ivan via neighborhood).

You are scumreading at least one player that I know to be town (myself).

That kinda puts a dampener on following you.

How can there exist a townie who both believes Shiro and I are town and believes they will achieve a scum elimination today without at least one of our votes onside?

Plurality rules mean we don't need all the town. We just need the scum to not all vote as one and not have three townies vote with them. With 11 alive and 3 scum, to get majority, scum need 3 townies to get to 6 votes.

In contrast, the town doesn't need nearly as much. We need as little as 4. 5, if one townie sides with scum. 6, if two townies side with scum.

So even if you and Shiro scumside today the town can still overpower your gamethrowing.
(I'll note that jjh is technically being considered town for this when he technically isn't but jjh is playing as if he's town here pretty damn transparently, sooooo...)

Okay, so let's play a game shall we.
Ivan Shiro Mastina you and I are off the table for today. In this hypothetical.

That leaves
Bombay
Rogue
SM
Cakez
T3
Suripoko

Who would you kill today and assuming they flip scum (so assuming you're right) who is scum with them?

SirCakez easily.
You left out StrangeMatter who I think has decent scum equity. Not my first elimination since that'd be SirCakez or Ivan but if Ivan absolutely cannot be on the table, then SirCakez is the obvious choice.

So I'm wondering, do you actually believe this is actually a theater that I would do as scum?

It's not 100% certain, but it's at the very least

plausible

, if not probable. It's part POE (there can only be so many players who are scum), part seeing the interactions and them looking like scum theater.

That said, I'm not even considering voting you until both SirCakez and Ivan are dead, so it's a "cross that bridge when we come to it" thing.

P-edit: JFC, why would you claim that if you're town?!? I don't even care about your alignment any more; my brain hurts from the bad choices and logic.

This should be a red flag to you, LLD, that Ivan is scum.

You, LLD, literally demanded that Bombay claim.

Bombay did so.

For this? Ivan tries to throw shade onto Bombay for

doing what

you asked them to

.

And you still don't think you've been pocketed by Ivan.

That being said VOTE: SirCakez since that is where jjh said he would go.

Back to here, then.
VOTE: SirCakez

[mastina]

Oh, I'm the one who told Mastina I was investigative and can verify her role
I did try to hint in a post today that I was only investigative in an extremely broad sense, as I wasn't given a lot of options for things I cpuld claim

Look, 100 characters is a very hard limit, I tried the best I could to get as much in there as I could but I didn't really have a lot of maneuverability given the strict limit.

As-is I had to get very creative. (Btw fun fact about the url= command. You can't have a url= with only one character within. I tried that, but it ended up breaking, so I had to give up one of the urls I was intending to include in the message because there wasn't enough characters, I legit used 99/100 and didn't have anything else to add with the limit.)

I want a Mastina full claim next, please. Mastina can popcorn from there.

There is a 0 percent chance that is her whole role.

My full role is,
r/AsheMains (obviously, what did you think the Shieldbow + Wit's End nerfs + Hawkeye was? And Hawkeye was also a role hint since my ability is based very very loosely on Hawkshot, presumably on the justification that it's communicating info to your team but I admit I was hella disappointed with my role since I feel like Cabd/ffery didn't really use anything of Ashe well; I'd have made Hawkshot an investigative or given a different ability from her other abilities);
My abilities are a voice + vote, with:
Hawkshot (e), messenger. I send messages to a player each night, with a 100-character limit.
If I deliver 3 successful letters, I gain access to a 3x public crier, also with a 100-character limit.

I pretty much almost fullclaimed this in my very first post.
If you looked at the two posts I linked, one was my 100-character-limit day post, and the other was the mod posting my public crier night message.

I realize that's not a very strong, not a very flashy, not a very good role--I wasn't exactly happy with it myself, but I have a way of making this sort of role be disproportionately powerful by having it get more mileage than intended. It's disappointing and frustrating, but it's something that I still wanted to try and maximize. I wanted to try and see if, in spite of the character limit, I could manage to form a townbloc and chain-claims N1 and maybe fakeclaim masons.

I knew you'd never go along with a mason gambit with me, but I didn't have a lot of good prospects. It needed to be a player that I could trust to be town but who could work with me and had the personality where they

might

be willing to go along with a mason gambit.

So that's why I chose jjh N1. I sent to him this message;

m2

100C
Gambit Y/N word D2 1st post
Also optionally
I
K
D(ecline)
P(ass onto N2 targ)
S(no N2 share of you)

N
I
S

Which told me, "no mason gambit"; "Investigative" "do not pass this information on to your N2 target".

I think that, as far as mileage from my role goes, I did as much as I could, but I guarantee you, that's my role. If you don't think it fits and that there must be more to it, take it up with the mods because that's what I got, nothing more.

WHY ARE YOU STILL TALKING?!?!?

No, this was the correct choice.

Why are you being like this?

Because Ivan is scum, faking a reaction in spite of Bombay literally doing what you asked them to do.

(Gonna be breaking off what was originally one post into a second with more RE: Ivan.)

[mastina]

Once the day ends, my role targets two players to neighborize in one neighborhood. They get immediate access to post. I'm informed of who's been chosen, and then I decide if I want to use any of my powers. Yes, powers, plural. All are one-shot. Once I submit an action or declare I'm taking no action, I gain viewing access to the PT. I can post from then on if I choose, but if I've chosen to take an action, that action is blocked if I post before night ends/mods clear me. Neighborhood dissolves when the following day phase ends and the process repeats.

Key info there is that my parity cop is one-shot and I have no control over who gets targeted for my neighborhoods. Given info is stronger early game and both targeted players were on a town wagon flip, I opted to use the parity cop shot N1. Hence not being concerned about being blocked in the future. That isn't my only one-shot power, but it's definitely my best one.

This is all well and good and all, but it doesn't change the core of why I think you're scum:

Even if I didn't reject your entire premise that I'm allowed to find something simultaneously scummy and obnoxious

And yet you said 'obnoxious' without saying 'scummy'.

If it was scummy

and

obnoxious, why didn't you SAY "scummy and obnoxious" or some variant thereof? You said 'obnoxious', and only obnoxious. You said nothing of the scumminess.

Word choice IS important.

You know how we have the term 'scumslip'? A scumslip is defined by a

choice of words

that reveals alignment

. You didn't say Suripoko was scum for the hammer. You didn't say Suripoko was scum being obnoxious with the hammer. You said Suripoko's hammer was obnoxious, period. Which is, explicitly: a scumslip. A choice of words that reveals alignment, because word choice IS important.

I believe that Ivan's role was designed as a town role, so I believe the parity cop is real. But while I believe Ivan's realclaiming a parity cop, I don't believe Ivan is town from it.

I was planning on cheekily claiming if there was ever heavy suspicion on me, "I guarantee you that my role is a town one, I can mod-confirm it to be so". And then pointing this out. But since Ivan has claimed a Parity Cop, I need to point this out: there was a mod post saying "all roles are designed as town, and then modified as needed". (I can't find it, I think morph either edited it out or deleted it, but it was there during the pregame, everyone who checked the thread then can confirm. OH WAIT I found it.)

Alignments will be randomized after the roles are initially designed,

and roles will be revised as needed based on alignments

.

This ensures that subreddit flavor has no correlation with the alignment rolls. Any subreddit in the game can be any alignment.

Alignments are given AFTER roles are designed.

You can have a Doctor, Cop, and Vig, all designed as town roles, end up as being scum roles--and then, still as the Doctor, Cop, and Vig, be modified as the Scum Doctor, Scum Cop, and scum Vig, to be revised as needed to make them be balanced.

So Ivan is probably truthfully claiming with the parity cop.

But lying by omission by leaving out the extras of the role. Rolecopping both individuals, roleblocking both individuals, redirecting/busdriving/something else both individuals, there's any number of hidden modifications to the role you can make where scum has incentive to use it.
Tell me--

was there so much as a single player pushing Shiro

at all

on D1?

Because I'm pretty damn sure that not a single person was pushing Shiro on D1, and there was nobody even pushing Shiro on D2. Nobody pushing Shiro means that conftowning Shiro doesn't actually change the gamestate. Shiro was at no risk of being mislimmed here as town, LLD was at no risk of being mislimmed here as town; the result did nothing to change the gamestate.

Ivan as scum loses

nothing

from giving the result.

What does Ivan as scum gain from the result?

Whatever Ivan's extra beyond the parity cop is, for a start.
And then the pocketing of LLD (who is, as mentioned, strongly pushing) as well as Shiro.

And this still holds. Yes, the lack of choosing targets negates the part about targeting LLD and Shiro specifically. However, the rest remains.

I don't think it's fake. There's no reason to conf. town me as a parity cop in that way.

I don't think it's fake either.

But there very much IS reason to "conftown" you (quotes, because you already were conftown).

All roles in this game were

designed as town roles

.
But then, after being assigned an alignment,

adjusted based off of alignment

.
There's literally half a dozen modifications to the role which could benefit the scum. Parity cop, but rolecops the targets to give scum the info. Parity cop, but roleblocks the targets to prevent them from acting. Parity cop, but loverizes the targets to allow for them to both die at the same time. Parity cop, but busdrives the targets. And so on and so forth. You don't know about them because Ivan isn't going to claim the scum addition to the town role, Ivan's only going to claim the original role.

Beyond that?

You were a top candidate for being nightkilled N1. The scum killed skitter N1 instead--but why did they not kill you N1? Because they were already targeting you with a role. You were targeted by a role and as such scum had reason to not kill you N1.

The parity cop helps pocket you, when you are already a strong pusher--you literally basically singlehandedly pushed through the Dwlee elimination. You pushed through ONE elimination; tell me, LLD: what stops scum from trying to pocket you in order to push through more?

Alignments will be randomized after the roles are initially designed,

and roles will be revised as needed based on alignments

.

This ensures that subreddit flavor has no correlation with the alignment rolls. Any subreddit in the game can be any alignment.

EVERY role in this game, every single one, was designed first as a town role. All 13 players received town roles.

The three scum roles were, after being designed as scum roles, then modified based on alignment.

The modifications to the role would mean that the original, town-designed (and thus, town-appearing in a massclaim) role, would still look like town when claimed because it was town...but that the scum role would then have something extra beyond the claimed role.

what is the motivation for Ivan to fakeclaim as scum here? it does nothing for them

Realclaiming a mod-given role that has an extra effect that they didn't claim which pockets the player who singlehandedly forced through a Dwlee elimination sounds like pretty damn strong motivation to me.

Hell,

I probably would have killed you over Skitter as well

(but probably Rogue over you).

You have actively and loudly pushed

me in every single game we have ever played in together. I would rather not have you here to do that again if I really were scum and had a choice in who was here.

LLD, who wrestles the thread hard to push through her scum reads

, who in prone to scum reading me, and has already voiced suspicions on me, or Skitter, who is repeatedly defending me at every turn.

This is why Ivan is scum btw.

Bombay's reasons here aren't limited to Bombay.

Basically every player in the game has identical sentiments--LLD has loudly pushed. LLD wrestles the thread hard to push her scumreads. LLD is prone to scumreading scum. This, REGARDLESS of who is scum in the game. Add in that LLD was already obvtown, and the question becomes:

who has motivation to keep LLD alive over skitter?

How about the person intending to hard-pocket her via a claim in a neighborhood of their creation who targeted her D1?

While you might not have chosen to target LLD, you knew LLD was the target of your role--this disincentives you from killing LLD N1 and gives you incentive to keep her alive.

If they are scum why pick me for that gambit?

You were under zero pressure D1 (and for that matter, D2).

If there were a push on you as scum D1, then conftowning you might lose something.

But with no push on you D1, conftowning you loses nothing.

Conftowning a player means that they go from mislimmable to not-mislimmable.

But if you were not going to be a mislim without a claim, then the conftown doesn't do anything.

It generally seems like a bad gambit and their interaction in our neighborhood seems genuine as hell.

Fun fact, Scum Neighborizer is one of the strongest roles in existence (in Normals, it literally has a

higher winrate than scum roleblockers

, higher winrate than scum ninjas, higher winrate than scum strongmen), and the outcome of May and Brendan's Pokemon game is proof enough of that in action.

I wonder why?

(It's because pocketing people in neighborhoods as scum is ridiculously easy.)

And this part? It actually gets

stronger

with a lack of ability to select your target.

[mastina]

I did consider that she might be reflexive given I targeted her, though.

I wish. That'd be a lot more fun and would allow me to blatantly copy your gambit from Animals UPick 2.

Alas, it was just me directly targeting you because who else was I going to target?

Rogue, a fairly high chance of being a nightkill and who literally just came from a game with a neighborhood scum being treated as a mason earning them a win? Even if Rogue lived, they'd have said no.

skitter, a player scumreading me with a fairly decent chance of being nightkilled? Even if she lived, she'd have said no.

T3? Maybe, but I don't know T3 that well, I don't know what he'd be down for.

StrangeMatter? Total unknown.

Shiro? Maybe, but I seem to recall Shiro was scumreading me D1 so probably not.

LLD? With the message coming from

me

? Hell no she'd never agree to it.

Suripoko? The slot communicating in images? If they chose to break their restriction or make images that clearly and unambiguously communicated, maybe, but I've no way of controlling what images they produce and frankly I don't really understand their images so what they think would be clearly and unambiguously answering me wouldn't be clear and unambiguous to me.

Bombay? One of my strongest scumreads N1.
SirCakez? One of my strongest scumreads N1.
That Idiot Ivan? Among my scumreads N1.

You were the slot most likely to get things going, and from you I was planning on trying to coordinate a use N2 during the course of D2.

[mastina]

OH forgot to select someone next to claim.

Should be fairly obvious;

SirCakez should claim.

[mastina]

More to the point, this reads as invested mastina-scum.

Well this confirms that either you've never played with me or that you're scum bullshitting because in the last three years?

There's no such thing as invested scumastina.

I can provide receipts for this claim if necessary but I really shouldn't need to given that literally anyone who's played with me in the last three years and seen my towngame vs my scumgame will know it to be true.

And she latched onto the idea that my role was overpowered with surprising facility.

I said there was no way your claimed role was true.

As it turns out, your claimed role was not in fact true.

I will call out bullshit that I see as bullshit and have in fact done so before as town and said this exact thing back then. The player said basically the same thing you are, that I was scum for calling out a roleclaim that wasn't real, when I was calling out the roleclaim correctly as not being real. (Fucked if I know what game it was tho. I know it happened in a past towngame of mine, I can't recall which tho.)

Add in the kissing up to LLD about how she was clearly the second choice for NK because she was so town for her Day One play, but yet the assumption that someone could pocket LLD in a neighborhood.

These don't contradict each other, they augment each other.

It is in fact possible to pocket players in neighborhoods; LLD was definitely one of the players most likely to be killed N1; LLD

not

being killed N1 is almost assuredly thanks to being pocketable in the neighborhood.

I also don't like the way she set up those chained elims in the event that either Bombay or I flipped

Because I am scumreading both of you but you clearly cannot be scum together.

And thus, one must be scum while the other must be town.

My scumread on you is stronger than my scumread on Bombay because you're basically obvscum coasting off of a roleclaim and the related pocketing of LLD from neighborhood posting.

[mastina]

And this part? It actually gets

stronger

with a lack of ability to select your target.

Mastina, why are you simultaneously calling Ivan scum, but then also taking all parts of his claim at face value?

How many times will I need to quote it?

Alignments will be randomized after the roles are initially designed,

and roles will be revised as needed based on alignments

.

This ensures that subreddit flavor has no correlation with the alignment rolls. Any subreddit in the game can be any alignment.

Alignments are given AFTER roles are designed.

You can have a Doctor, Cop, and Vig, all designed as town roles, end up as being scum roles--and then, still as the Doctor, Cop, and Vig, be modified as the Scum Doctor, Scum Cop, and scum Vig, to be revised as needed to make them be balanced.

So Ivan is probably truthfully claiming with the parity cop.

But lying by omission by leaving out the extras of the role. Rolecopping both individuals, roleblocking both individuals, redirecting/busdriving/something else both individuals, there's any number of hidden modifications to the role you can make where scum has incentive to use it.

This is literally how the roles were designed.

Literally. every. player. Got a town role.

That includes Ivan.

This town role was then modified based on the alignment of the player.

Thus: Ivan wouldn't be lying about his role, he would be truthfully claiming the

town part

of the role, but leaving out the

scum

part.

This is, what, the third time I've had to explain this concept?

Read the fucking game mechanics.

It's not that hard to grasp.

EVERY player got a town role. Which means Ivan has a realclaim/safeclaim from the mods of a real town role.

Said town role, a realclaim/safeclaim, was then modified based on the alignment of the player receiving it.

And thus, Ivan isn't going to be lying

directly

. Ivan is going to be lying

by omission

. By leaving out the scum part of the role.

This feels counter intuitive, to just believe him while calling him "lockscum."

I'm calling Ivan lockscum only

in part

due to the role.

It's always been a play-based read. The roleclaim accounts for 25% of the reason Ivan is scum; play is legitimately 75% of why Ivan is scum.

Why did you jump to that being real?

Because I'm apparently the only player who read the fucking game mechanics as shown by literally nobody understanding me here.

[mastina]

And also, if you believe he could not choose his targets, how does that affect your thoughts on LLD not being killed?

It strengthens the reasons for Ivan being scum.

If Ivan couldn't choose his targets, he still got to know the targets N1.

Knowing the targets N1 and that he couldn't select them, he has a dilemma: kill LLD and lose the benefit of his role, or let LLD live in spite of how she's one of the most obvtown players in the game with the strength to push a read through and has reasonably high accuracy in her reads.

The latter has a much higher benefit than the former especially depending on what scum part of the role Ivan isn't claiming and especially if Ivan comes up with the idea of pocketing LLD in the neighborhood.

I am convinced that it is possible for the claimed roles to coexist, therefore he is no longer lock scum.

Every

role in this game has the potential to coexist as an alignment. You could have three town cop-type roles or three scum cop-type roles or six cop-type roles shared between town and scum.

Because of the game mechanic where every role is designed initially as a town role, and then adjusted to accommodate for balance. Scum roles are going to have the town role and then have an additional scum aspect to them to bolster their strength to account for the town's strength; town roles would either remain the same if the setup is balanced, or get buffed if the setup is scumsided, or far more likely, be nerfed to be weaker.

You can see that in full effect with my role. I'm an incredibly gated messenger with an incredibly gated town crier. I can post messages only after N3 publicly and have only 3 shots of that ability but all of my messages are limited to 100 characters. It's as weak as weak roles can get, which means that my role was definitely nerfed from the initial balance. Maybe it was an ungated messenger with a lower crier requirement, or maybe it was a friendly neighbor in addition to the messenger, with the crier being an IC. (Say my role was initially friendly neighbor with 100 character limit and after 3 uses, could become a crier/IC.) You'll have to wait for the mod thread to see the postgame nerfs they made but I imagine I'm onpoint with what they did.

But I digress. My

point

here, is that Ivan's claim can be real here and be town, sure--but it feels too strong to be a real town role given what we have claimed even given jjh as a 3p here. More than that, Ivan is scum by play.

This is a game literally designed, per the mods, to be solved by dayplay not by roleclaims. Because every player was assigned a town role to begin with, it is designed so that scum can truthfully claim and that the town must use play to figure out the town from the scum.

And Ivan is scum by play. If you want that case on PLAY, you can read my fucking iso because I have a feeling folks aren't doing that because I've been explaining myself multiple times here.

[mastina]

I don’t have a good read on them currently. I need to look into them for sure before having something definite there.

As it so happens, I have a flowchart for reading me.

I can also fairly quickly track down all of my scumgames for the last three years as well as showing a few of the towngames.

Going from saying I am lock scum, to then seeing me and Ivan in a 1 v 1 and siding with me felt weird.

Oh my scumread on you didn't go away. I'm still scumreading you by play--it's just that you are pushing SirCakez as scum and you also entered into a 1v1 with Ivan so unless you double-bussed and orchestrated a 1v1, you're not scum with both of them.

In contrast?

Ivan and SirCakez have been buddy-buddy the entire time. (I've shown this before in my iso but if you're going to be a lazy fuck I can show it to you again because it's pretty damn transparently obvious that they are scumbuddies here.)

You've pushed both Ivan and SirCakez; Ivan and SirCakez have, consistently, defended each other as well as voting together on Suripoko. (As you yourself noted, for Suripoko to be scum requires literally all of your scumreads to be wrong. You can't apply that sentiment to your reads without also applying them to mine.)

You've done a bunch of scummy shit. This push on me among them and your inconsistencies are a plenty.

But you also are far less of a fit for scum compared to Ivan and SirCakez.

I don't see a world in which Ivan or SirCakez are ever town. Their play just isn't.

It's very very glim, distant, kinda hazy, but I can at least

see

town in you. It doesn't look like it's real, but I can at least see glimmers of what could

potentially

be town indicators.

No town indicators for Ivan/SirCakez, both of them being obvscum, Ivan's claim being a scum claim, your play doesn't fit as well as a scumbuddy, your claim feels more honest (if you were scum then the commute would be a scum ability so I find it less likely for you to be scum since if you were scum it's not optimal to claim that), and I can at least

see

the

potential

for you to be town. (Vaguely.)

[mastina]

I dont believe for a second that a role based on Ashe is just a messenger
Mainly because it doesn't fit at all. And since I am also a League character and have first hand info on how they designed roles based on said champions abbilities. I highly doubt that what they thought would be appropriate for Ashe.

Oh I agree it's a terrible fit!
I'm actively active on AsheMains. The reason I chose that subreddit is because I am a member there and I post there a lot. (Mostly on build-related things.)

I'm literally an Ashe onetrick and I know everything about her pretty much. Her lore, her abilities, her builds, her role in the game, everything.

I agree that the mods did AsheMains a huge disservice with the shitty messenger that doesn't fit well with the chosen subreddit.

Ashe's ult would be a good roleblocker.
Ashe's ult could also be a form of aoe ability, spreading to multiple characters.
Ashe's hawkshot could be an investigative.
Ashe's hawkshot

can

be used to give information to others--but messenger isn't what I think of when I think of giving information. When I think of giving information, I think of amnesiac investigative, the role that investigates a player and sends the results to a different player.
Ashe's volley could be used as an aoe ability, maybe tagging multiple players.
Ashe's ranger focus could give her multitasking, stacking abilities.
Ashe's passive could be used as a Delayer, delaying actions.
Ashe's passive could be used as a roleblocker.

Ashe could act as a vig, due to being an adc designed to dish out the damage.

Ashe is the kiting queen, so she could be a commuter or a hider from evading her opponents.

Ashe is highly supportive and utility-based with a secondary flex into being a support, so she could give her teammates something. She could serve as an enabler, or she could provide buffs, like role upgrades, extra shots, give multitasking, be an inventor, etc.

Ashe is one of the biggest (I forget the term, Warmother?) of the Freljord, she literally started from nothing and built up a tribe through welcoming others, diplomacy, kindness but not softness, her wits, compassion, but firmness. From this, she could be a neighborizer based on building her community up, or be some kind of firm commander, or something like that.

Ashe's meta build until this season was Shieldbow, so she could have a 1x bulletproof from a shieldbow being procced. This also works for the previously meta wit's end for similar reasons.
Ashe could gain a power after having been targeted, similarly working off of Shieldbow's shield being procced, making her something of a reflexive role.

Ashe's meta rune is lethal tempo which gives attack speed and now also bonus range, which is another way Ashe could get multitasking.

Ashe usually takes biscuits, which could function as an activated 1x bulletproof.

Ashe with approach velocity could be a hider or tracker or follower or similar, hunting down a target.

Ashe with the poke-build using arcane comet could be some form of delayed role, where she uses something one night and gets something else on a following night, and/or a role that ramps up with time to represent her cdr going down. (That also works for a ramping up passive/damage from the crit build come to think of it.)

AsheMains as a reddit about Ashe could have involved any number of things based on the images, clips, fanart, discussion, and guides involved.

But the mods didn't give any of that.

They gave an extremely gated messenger, and an even heavier gated town crier requiring three successful uses of the gated messenger and then that role itself being three-shot. And they tied it haphazardly to hawkshot.

I agree with you that it's a shitty role, it's not a good fit.
I agree with you that the mods could do a lot more with AsheMains than they did.
I agree with you that the mods shouldn't have given this role to me given what I submitted.
I agree with you that it's not very well-designed.

But no matter how much you don't like it--that's exactly what the mods gave me.

You might think I'm lying, but I'm not. It's precisely what the mods did give to me. It doesn't matter if you think it's not a good fit--it matters what the mods thought. And they apparently thought it was acceptable. I disagree with them. I don't think it's a good fit at all. But no matter how much I disagree with their decision, it won't change my role.

I'm r/AsheMains, my abilities are,
Hawkshot (E) messenger, sending a letter to a player each night with a 100-character limit, where three successful letters unlocks the public crier ability (also gated to 100 characters),
And a public crier ability, which has 3 shots.

That's it. It doesn't fit well. But it's what the mods gave me, fittingness be damned.

Anyone who thinks mastina actually got a 100 character messenger role as her only real power, raise your hand. Look at the flipped roles, look at the other claims on the table. Then look at that. One of these things is not like the others...

And yet, that's exactly what I got. Nothing more.

And the proof?

In both what I would claim if I had anything (I'd claim any investigative power I have and provably did not investigate jjh; I'd claim any protective power I had; I'd claim any blocking power I had and provably did not roleblock jjh; that doesn't leave a whole lot which I could have beyond what I claimed, now, does it?), and from the way night went, and from my target selection, and from meta.

I don't fucking lie about my role regardless of my alignment.

So when I say that all I have is the messenger role (with the crier later).

It's all I have.

Also note that whatever new information I brought to the table (and also note that nothing I claimed was ever a lie or retracted; I just only claimed what town needed to know off the bat to optimize information from reactions) wasn't ever actually used to reevaluate her stance.

Wrong.
I did reevaluate the read off of the new information--
I came out with an even stronger scumread on you because of the claim being

more

likely to be a scumclaim, rather than less.

I'll take another show of hands from anyone in this game who thinks they could pocket LLD.

There ain't a player onsite immune to being pocketed in a neighborhood. Not even LLD is immune to it.

The power of scum to pocket in neighborhoods is

that

strong.

It feels like you are using that line by the mods to say that "confirmed scum" Ivan would never have a reason to lie about any part of his role.

If every role in the game is designed initially as a town role, why would scum have any reason to lie about the town parts of their role?

The only parts the scum have a reason to lie about are the modifications to the town role that make it a scum role.

Ergo, Ivan's claim is going to be mostly true--but leaving out crucial scum-oriented details of the role, a lie by omission.

The Ivan, LLD, Shiro voting block does not look like they want to go in with me on Cakez or T3, and this is fine.

Ivan is scum and as Ivan is scum, Ivan is disincentivized from voting scum and incentivized to vote town.

LLD and Shiro are both hard-pocketed by Ivan and thus will not vote scum and are guaranteed to vote town.

Voting with them is a resignation that you cannot eliminate scum, and fuck that. By the numbers, even with two townies hard-scumsiding due to being hard-pocketed, the town still can eliminate scum.

It's only if you DO resign that it becomes impossible to eliminate scum, as a self-fulfilling prophecy.

If you give up on eliminating scum, then a scum elimination becomes impossible thanks to Shiro and LLD; if you

don't

give up on eliminating scum, then a scum elimination is suddenly possible.

[mastina]

catchup in 30 mins

i did not get a message saying that i lost my box.

i'm observing

r/chessporn

Okay,

The Bombay /
marcistar /
Lukewarm:

You were right about T3 being scum here. (Apologies to StrangeMatter as that means you're town.)

T3 is a player who, rather extensively, knows metas. He is one of THE heaviest users of meta onsite. He is one of THE biggest players on researching meta and he knows my meta both from having played with me extensively and from having done research beyond what he's seen. He's seen me both as scum (speaking of that game,

Luke

, you should really remember my performance as scum in that game when thinking about the chances I'm scum in

this

game) and countless times my towngame.

T3 said that he was catching up.

And then?

...And then nothing.

And then he gave nothing.

He claimed his reddit flavor submission (with an implication of being the other chess player that he didn't explicitly state altho the implication is strong/obvious enough that it can safely be assumed, but the lack of explicit unambiguousness makes the claim more sketchy), he claimed his box status, and said he was observing.

And nothing else.

Why is T3 doing nothing here?

...Because I am the lead wagon and Suripoko is the second lead wagon and we're both town.

And T3 knows that if he defended me, that I wouldn't be voted out.
T3 can't call me scum without it being a scumclaim, but he also can't be active and not say anything without it being a scumclaim.
So what does him doing nothing, being inactive, mean?

It means that he knows he can't be active without clearing me and he doesn't want to clear me and because he wants the wagons on town to remain, since he knows that if he conftowns me, that it increases the odds of a scum elimination going through.

[mastina]

Deadline: January 17, 1:00 PM US Eastern Time.
Countdown: (expired on 2022-01-17 10:00:00)
Mod Notes:

SirCakez is v/la until 1/17

MODS: Given SirCakez is V/LA until the deadline and plurality rules are in effect, can we get a deadline extension? Having a player be V/LA for literally 3/7 of the provided days is unfair to everyone involved as it's a player inactive for literally half the time, and you're not prodding or replacing the slot that's inactive for half of the day phase due to the V/LA.

An extension seems fair.

[mastina]

I’m cool with either of the leading wagons going. I am open to hearing about cakeboy.

Okay so notty could potentially actually be scum here because notscience should absolutely

not

be okay with my elimination here.

Yes, I get notty being okay with Suripoko as an elimination.

But notscience knows my towngame. He literally was scumreading me wrongly for like half of Pokemon UPick and was thoroughly embarrassed when I ended up nightkilled instead of conftown because of just how obvtown I was.

It's not a full read reversal because notscience could be a fucking moron who didn't learn from history and in spite of having made this EXACT mistake last time is making it again.

But given that I'd expect notscience to learn from his past mistakes and not make them again, being okay with my elimination when this is self-evidently my towngame is inherently damaging to my prior townread there.

I still think the scumteam is {SirCakez, Ivan, T3}, but if one of those were wrong, with notty's play here at end of day, Rogue would be near the top of my scum candidates.

[mastina]

Okay, done. So after we dump Rogue today, I'm thinking the elimination pool is {me, Cakez, T3}.

I mostly concur, but I'd like the day to last until after my V/LA so that I can actually delve into the most likely scumteam.

[mastina]

So Shiro made mastina loyal, and mastina targeted LLD with a message?

Yup!

How did Mastina know that she was being made loyal by Shiro in order to include it in her message to LLD during the night?

Uh I can share this but I'm not sure if it's public or not and if it's not I would need permission to do so. But, suffice to say: I had a way to know Shiro was making me loyal.

By the way, this day doesn't end until I say so, understood? I have things I need to work out in private... but all will be revealed soon enough.

(This would be why I am not voting--I haven't done my full solve work yet, I did some preliminary work last night but I kinda am figuring that you have done more work there than I have and am waiting for you to give your thoughts and then I can give my thoughts on that to build off of it more or less.)

oHhHhH

That said it's looking pretty damn likely that T3's scum, stalling here.

There's a high chance Bombay is town; there's a high chance StrangeMatter is town; LLD is conftown; Shiro is conftown; I am conftown; that leaves 2/4 of {SirCakez, T3, That Idiot Ivan, Rogue} as scum.

T3's looking pretty damn likely.

SirCakez imo has a fairly high chance of being scum.

Ivan has high scum equity with SirCakez but less otherwise imo.

Rogue might not be confscum but shouldn't be allowed to live to mylo/lylo. With 2/9 as scum, that means that in the worst case scenario of a town elimination and a town nightkill going through, we need to kill them either today or tomorrow imo.

I realize that we theoretically in the best case scenario have enough mislims to go through all four but sadly the game's not autowin (for ~reasons~). So I'm treating things as if we only have three, which means that we need to determine the least-scum of the four candidates imo and then of the three remaining, what the best order of elimination would be. (Rogue would need to be either first or second thanks to the result probably.)

[mastina]

So Shiro made mastina loyal, and mastina targeted LLD with a message?

Yup!

How did Mastina know that she was being made loyal by Shiro in order to include it in her message to LLD during the night?

Uh I can share this but I'm not sure if it's public or not and if it's not I would need permission to do so. But, suffice to say: I had a way to know Shiro was making me loyal.

By the way, this day doesn't end until I say so, understood? I have things I need to work out in private... but all will be revealed soon enough.

(This would be why I am not voting--I haven't done my full solve work yet, I did some preliminary work last night but I kinda am figuring that you have done more work there than I have and am waiting for you to give your thoughts and then I can give my thoughts on that to build off of it more or less.)

oHhHhH

That said it's looking pretty damn likely that T3's scum, stalling here.

There's a high chance Bombay is town; there's a high chance StrangeMatter is town; LLD is conftown; Shiro is conftown; I am conftown; that leaves 2/4 of {SirCakez, T3, That Idiot Ivan, Rogue} as scum.

T3's looking pretty damn likely.

SirCakez imo has a fairly high chance of being scum.

Ivan has high scum equity with SirCakez but less otherwise imo.

Rogue might not be confscum but shouldn't be allowed to live to mylo/lylo. With 2/9 as scum, that means that in the worst case scenario of a town elimination and a town nightkill going through, we need to kill them either today or tomorrow imo.

I realize that we theoretically in the best case scenario have enough mislims to go through all four but sadly the game's not autowin (for ~reasons~). So I'm treating things as if we only have three, which means that we need to determine the least-scum of the four candidates imo and then of the three remaining, what the best order of elimination would be. (Rogue would need to be either first or second thanks to the result probably.)

(Pagetopping this.)

[mastina]

(Just letting you know that I have read everything, but I am on my phone right now, and everything that I want to say, requires a desktop to say, and I can't do it while phoneposting. It'll be a fair amount, too, so expect it circa 6-8 hours from now.

That said, one of the things, Ivan brought up already, but LLD also forgot ANOTHER issue beyond the stated. She forgot about a critical fact that both she and I know, which isn't public, but which would even further fuck the town over if eliminating me.)

EDIT: Almost forgot to say,
Yes, I intend to vote SirCakez, but will do so only after LLD has had a chance to hear what I have to say and revise the flawed plan.

[mastina]

mastina, I'd also suggest you think about why if you're town I'd have to be about the least savvy and most disorganized scum player around to let things unfold as they did. Yes, WIFOM is a thing, but there's plausible deniability and then there's leaving gold bars unattended at a Wild West saloon.

Respectfully, what in your play makes it bad play for scum?

LLD is poisoned--she's set to die at the end of the day.
This,

in spite of

you having conftown'd her.
This,

in spite of

you having (allegedly)

bodyguarded

her.

LLD is going to die, and there's nothing anyone can do to prevent it.

And the funny thing is:

it's possible the poison was used on me to let me live long enough to clear Mastina, and not long enough to suspect her.

LLD said this about me, but who fits this better than me, Ivan?

You fit the description better than I do;
"it's possible the poison was used on me long enough to clear Ivan, and not long enough to suspect him".

What in that would be bad scumplay, Ivan?

Serious question, because I don't see anything inherently bad about it.

Now, granted!

I will admit: there's a decent chance you are town anyway.

I did some crunching on possible scumteams (I wanted to post it in this post but given the time, I might need to delay it because it's late and I'm tired, sorry), and you're only scum in a small small fraction of them. You don't fit as a Bombay scumbuddy (D2 makes this obvious), you being a StrangeMatter scumbuddy is only possible if the scumteam vastly vastly VASTLY and

terribly

misread the gamestate (basically, the ONLY way it's possible is if the scumteam erroneously thought that I was an easier mislim to push D2 than SirCakez, and that

would

be incompetence from a scum-Ivan which is why I am pretty much ruling this one out), so the only initial Ivan-scum worlds are,
{Ivan, SirCakez}; {Ivan, T3}; {Ivan, Rogue}. And that's just from memory, I might be able to narrow it down even more by doing additional research and crossreferencing and such. (But honestly, the only scumteam I think is very very highly probable is Ivan-SirCakez and in that instance we always eliminate SirCakez first and check for SirCakez scumbuddies after he flips scum.)

But while there's a decent chance you are town anyway--I'm not going to bet the game on you being town especially if SirCakez is in fact scum like I believe he is.

The fact that Shiro informed you you would be loyal prior to your action means that any strongman modification you could have placed on yourself would have pierced through the Loyal modifier.

Respectfully, LLD:
1: If I had the ability to tack on a strongman modifier, I'd have used it to

kill

you. Not message you through a loyal. Killing you is a

better

version of messaging you. Killing you means that I can claim to have messaged you, but didn't need to actually have messaged you. Literally nobody would be able to prove me otherwise. Because with me having said I'd target you, and you dead, nobody would know otherwise.

Plus, as an aside: if I had a strongman messenger? I'd have claimed it. I don't fucking lie about my role, and strongman-messenger isn't a scumclaim. Why isn't it a scumclaim? Well for a start: we have a proven Strongwilled Cop and a claimed Strongwilled Doc, so a strongman/strongwilled Messenger wouldn't be a scumclaim and would fit right in as a townclaim. And since I didn't claim messenger until D2, I'd have seen Dwlee's claim and known it was 100% totally and entirely safe to claim it, too. But I didn't, because I don't have a strongman messenger; I have a normal messenger that can and will fail if any blocking condition is met.

2: Does a strongman even pierce through Loyal? I don't think it does. Loyal causes your night action to fail if you don't target someone of the same alignment as you. Strongman causes you to pierce through blocking actions. But Loyal targeting a player of a different alignment isn't a blocking action. I suppose we can ask the mods;

MOD: if a player had a strongmanned action, and a loyal modifier to that action, and they targeted someone of a different alignment, would the Strongman cause the action to succeed or would the Loyal cause the action to fail?

3: If Shiro making me Loyal wasn't oneshot, I can just target literally any nonscum player and come tomorrow, if I am not roleblocked by scum (keeping in mind that we have both a jailkeeper and a watcher tonight so scum targeting me for a block is leaving both the jk and the watcher unblocked), I can confirm myself again tonight. Using a oneshot strongman to pierce through loyal

might

be possible (depending on the mod's ruling), but even you should agree that it's far far far less likely to have two strongmans to pierce through loyal, right?

4: On the note of saying I could've used a strongman on my messenger, I'd like to point out: there is an, unclaimed, source of poison on you. This makes it almost certainly a scum ability. There is also an, unclaimed, roleblock on you. This makes it definitely a scum ability. We have two scum left, and I am very much definitely a Messenger. For me to attach a Strongman to the messenger means that with only two scum alive, scum used

four

abilities

all on you

last night. FOUR abilities to target you last night, LLD. A strongman, a messenger, a poison, and a roleblock. Be honest--does that sound like it makes sense to you? Because to me that pretty blatantly violates Occam's Razor and general principles of scumplay.

5: But more than that, you should know DAMN well that this is my towngame. Like, you've SEEN my scumgame. You should really really REALLY know what my scumgame looks like. You've seen it more recently than most folks have in fact and you should know precisely what I do as scum and how night/day the difference is between my scumgame and my towngame.

Even if I

wasn't

conftown (and I think points 1-4 are pretty damn compelling in saying why it takes a flagrant violation of occam's razor to paint me as anything but), I wouldn't need to be conftown here; I should be obvtown anyway.

I realize that I don't generally vibe with you; I realize that I generally get in your way; etc. But when the outcome of the game is reliant on you being onpoint, you

should

need to realize why I shouldn't be on the elimination table, especially given the thing that you and I both know. (Which I will mention in a bit, but first...)

That's 5 kill immunities. I don't care how much poison is in this game, there are not 5 kill immunities.

Honorary point #6:
You're damn right there's not that many kill interferences. Your bulletproof, StrangeMatter's JK, Ivan's Bodyguard, Rogue's claim, T3's claim, Bombay's commute, and one more you forgot to list, that's literally SEVEN players with claimed killstop mechanics.

SEVEN of THIRTEEN players claiming roles that have killstop (or at least kill interference) mechanics.

Literally over HALF the players have claimed mechanics to interfere with kill mechanics.

There's AT LEAST one scum in there, possibly two.

And I am not a player who is among those.

As long as there's still 7 claimed kill interference players without a flipped scum in those players, I should not be the focus.

I am supposed to know something? and Ivan knows it too, but I have no memory? What?

Yes, think about what happens if I am eliminated. There's something which you should know will happen.

Now, after that thing happens, if scum either get lucky or happen to be in the know, they can take advantage of that thing which happens.

Even if we had the eliminations to spare (which we don't, we've got one, and that's it), we wouldn't actually have the eliminations to spare, at least not safely/reliably.

[mastina]

Do you think scum came in with a plan to avoid bussing Suripoko here?

From an entirely objective standpoint where only LLD and Shiro are conftown (even tho I

should

be, let's devil's advocate for a moment and pretend I'm not), that's pretty damn obviously impossible here.

The only teams with no bussing involved are:
{mastina, Ivan} (lol no)
{mastina, StrangeMatter} (okay technically possible I suppose?)
{mastina, Bombay} (lol no)
{Ivan, StrangeMatter} (only possible if the scumteam utterly botched D2 by vastly completely misreading the gamestate and thinking that I was a more viable mislim than SirCakez, which is to say: lol no)
{Ivan, Bombay} (lol no)
{StrangeMatter, Bombay} (N1 makes this a lol no)

I think all of these "lol no"s are fairly obvious and self-explanatory, but if you don't get why they are so obviously not a viable scumteam combo, I can go into why.

Since the only team that isn't a lol no is a team with me in it I know that it can't be the case and if you think that StrangeMatter is town then that should cement things as meaning that there's no truly possible scumteam with zero scum bussing.

Ergo, basically proven by the PoE, there is inherently, innately, a

requirement

for

at least

one scum bussing. There

cannot

be no scum bussing.

And look at the wagon order--the only conftown name there is Shiro at the

end

of the wagon.

Which implies a level of preplanned bussing of Suripoko.

The question isn't if there's bussing on Suripoko (there is).

It's "one, or two?", and which of them.

I honestly can see any of the three being scum in basically any combo. (Well not quite, again, I did some of the work last night but want to refine it.)

[mastina]

B) LLD hasn't cleared me

Ivan probably town at this point for me,

I'm willing to bet my game on it at least

.

C) using a bunch of power in a mini to become 'conftown' with one miselim to spare is hardly bad scum play

It's a violation of Occam's Razor.

It not only requires that all of those powers to exist, but for the scumteam to think to use them in that specific way when that specific way is contrived and convoluted. And I can tell you right here and now, scumastina does not think to pile on all scum actions onto a single player; in fact, her fear and paranoia of doubling down on something that won't work would, specifically, make her want to spread actions out. Maybe there's a player on this playerlist that would double down and put all on a single player. But it's certainly not me.

I do not think that way. I just don't. I literally can't think that way as scum. And since my message is something that I need to write, if I were scum, I would need to be involved in the scum's decision process--meaning that it's not something I would think of and I would object to as being too much "all eggs in one basket".

Which is simpler?

That I, as scum, have an unproven strongman modifier that I can attach to the messenger but either didn't or couldn't attach to the kill, knew that it would bypass being loyal, stacked literally all the scum power onto LLD, knowing that she would still have an entire day phase where she could EVEN IF I WAS TOWN still eliminate my scumbuddy, leaving me unable to use a third shot of the messenger unless said strongman modifier had a second shot, all for the chance at being falsely conftown'd, a gambit that frankly has a low chance of success because LLD and I have a poor meshing history...

...Or that I messaged LLD as a town with the Loyal modifier?

You're delusional if you say the former is simpler than the latter.

you're wrong about what happens if you're eliminated, and it's really WTF for you to imply otherwise

I'm pretty sure I'm not wrong? It'd require me outting the interaction but obviously I don't want to do that but I'm pretty damn sure I'm right about this?

My elimination causes something to happen. That something does not directly impact things, but has the potential to give the scum an advantage with bad town luck / good scum luck (or scum being in the know).

Unless the mechanic involved was a one-time thing, but I was under the impression it'd happen on my elimination too.

Why are you wasting your time answering a question I posed to Bombay intending to encourage them to look at the various votes for Suripoko and the naturalness thereof? You've been talking about putting up an analysis of who's likely scum. With two days left, maybe go there? Fuck refining it; if you're actually town, stop doing your normal thing of completely misreading me and get to talking about today's elim.

What's a waste about it?

I am giving extra info. The prompt for me giving extra info need not be directed at me. In fact most of the time I give info, it's because I see something directed at someone else, but I have my own thoughts that I want to give in spite of it having not been directed at me.

But if you want the raw version.

Sure, you can have it.

This was typed during N2, keep in mind, and has not been touched since then and thus, has not been updated with the new info, because I am literally an hour overdue from going to bed now (should've gone to bed before 4 am, is now almost 5 am), so I need to sleep the moment I hit submit on this.


There's exactly three possible worlds we live in:
-Both scum were off of Cakez/Suripoko. I find this doubtful, as it requires zero scum bussing and no scum voting SirCakez who in this situation would be town. So, basically impossible.
-Both scum bussed Suripoko.
-One scum bussed Suripoko and one was on neither Suripoko nor SirCakez.

The fundamental truth of those being the only possible worlds will be my foundation going forward.

We know the alignment of everyone voting SirCakez, the full spread: jjh 3p, Suripoko scum, and me town.

So, given that, there's precisely three worlds possible:

Scum didn't bus or vote SirCakez, being entirely among the mastina voters and Not Voting players. Given that LLD was voting me, that'd be 2/3 of the remaining players. This is the scenario which I find basically impossible. It'd mean that scum didn't want the towncred for bussing, but didn't pile onto SirCakez, who'd be town in this scenario. Also, pretty sure that this combo contains Bombay + Ivan, so yeah, this is NOT the world that we live in.

Scum double bussed Suripoko. Given that you voted Suripoko, Shiro, that'd narrow down the scumpool to 2/3 of {Rogue, T3, SirCakez}.
I'm most suspicious of all three of them overall, so this is probably actually the most likely, ESPECIALLY if SirCakez is a strong PR. Suripoko was a really weak scum PR, so was probably not a big loss.

The final world is one scum bussing, with one scum voting neither SirCakez or Suripoko. (This world is made most likely from SvS wagons yesterday.)

This would mean 1/3 of the Suripoko voters, and 1/3 of the mastina+NVers.

Suripoko

(4): SirCakez, Rogue, T3,

Shiro

SirCakez (3):

jjh927

,

mastina

,

Suripoko

mastina

(3):

Lady Lambdadelta

, That Idiot Ivan, StrangeMatter
Not Voting (1): The Bombay

GENERAL FINDING:

Unless we're living in World One, there

must

be

at least

one scum bussing. It's required, it's mandatory. It's genuinely necessary. 1-2 scum.

GENERAL SUSPICION:

That the scum voting Suripoko did so with TMI.

WORLD ONE:

No scum bussing; no scum on SirCakez

WORLD ONE SCUMTEAM COMBOS:

{That Idiot Ivan, The Bombay}: I don't think I need to explain why this scumteam is impossible. Their roles/claims and play all tells the entire story.
{StrangeMatter, The Bombay}: Given StrangeMatter jailkept Bombay N1 and Bombay did not know about this, this scumteam is imo impossible. Their interactions suggest not-scumbuddies.

{That Idiot Ivan, StrangeMatter}: The only scumteam combo that isn't outright impossible, but still rather unlikely. For this to be the scumteam, the scumteam would have needed to have not bussed Suripoko for towncred and yet, not hopped onto SirCakez in an attempt to save Suripoko.

There is

one

way it

could

be possible, I'll admit: if the scumteam had a misread of the gamestate. If the scumteam thought that I was an easier mislim than SirCakez thanks to your doubt on me and LLD's push on me, then they could've thought that piling onto me was better than piling onto SirCakez. So it's not

impossible

, but that badly misreading the gamestate is something I think is incredibly

improbable

.

WORLD TWO:

Both Scum Bussing

WORLD TWO SCUMTEAM COMBOS:

{SirCakez, Rogue}--I need to investigate this team combo. SirCakez looks like scum and Rogue's endorsement of my elimination when this is my towngame and notty should know it is suspect, but I need to look at the viability of it.
{SirCakez, T3}--this is an incredibly likely combo imo. I don't think it's coincidence that these two slots were the only two slots which were pressured to claim but then refused to do so.
{Rogue, T3}--I need to investigate this team combo. Rogue's endorsement of my elimination when this is my towngame and notty should know it is suspect, T3's lack of defense of me is suspect, and T3's lack of claim is suspect.

WORLD THREE:

One Scum Bussing; One scum off of both Suripoko and SirCakez

WORLD THREE SCUMTEAM COMBOS:

{SirCakez, That Idiot Ivan}--literally writes itself as a scumteam. The two have been hard-defending each other the entire game, and while they ended up voting separately, were voting together for quite a while and they used the same logic on Suripoko. While Suripoko flipped scum, I genuinely think that the push on Suripoko was a case of TMI.
{SirCakez, StrangeMatter}--I need to investigate this to be sure, but if I recall correctly, StrangeMatter was suspicious of SirCakez. If I was right about that, this team would be unlikely.
{SirCakez, The Bombay}--Given Bombay's suspects, I am pretty damn sure this scumteam is incredibly unlikely, borderline impossible.
{Rogue, That Idiot Ivan}--I need to investigate this team combo. Rogue's endorsement of my elimination when this is my towngame and notty should know it is suspect, and Ivan's play still looks scum to me and the claim I still think is suspect.
{Rogue, StrangeMatter}--I need to confirm this but I think StrangeMatter had suspicion on Rogue? If so this would be unlikely as a combo.
{Rogue, The Bombay}---I need to confirm this but I think The Bombay had suspicion on Rogue? If so this would be unlikely as a combo.
{T3, That Idiot Ivan}--quite likely as a combo. T3's lack of defense of me is suspect, and T3's lack of claim is suspect; Ivan's play still looks scum to me and the claim I still think is suspect.
{T3, StrangeMatter}--I need to confirm this but I think StrangeMatter had suspicion on T3? If so this would be unlikely as a combo.
{T3, The Bombay}--yeah no, Bombay's push on T3 means not scumbuddies here.

So compiling scumteams by most likely to least likely, initially, I get:

MOST LIKELY:
{SirCakez, That Idiot Ivan}

{SirCakez, T3} = {SirCakez, Rogue}

{T3, That Idiot Ivan}

{Rogue, That Idiot Ivan} = {Rogue, T3}

{Rogue, The Bombay} = {Rogue, StrangeMatter} = {T3, StrangeMatter} = {SirCakez, StrangeMatter} (but all of these pending reread to confirm)

{That Idiot Ivan, StrangeMatter}
^^^^^^^^
LEAST LIKELY
(If I didn't list it I am outright removing it as a possibility)

So I've got 11 scumteam combos possible right now, I'll narrow it down when I can.

[mastina]

VOTE: mastina

VOTE: SirCakez

Yeah SirCakez is scum here.

If he were town then he wouldn't be just accepting the logic there while ignoring how he has all the information to know that I am town. He would be thinking about the flaws in it, thinking about alternatives, and thinking about things in terms of reads. With the analysis augmenting reads.

The two have been hard-defending each other the entire game,

ummm this has literally not happened this game

Except it has.

I can give the receipts to prove it, and on prior days already partially did.

It's literally happening right now with Ivan not voting you. He literally prefers Rogue over voting you. Yes, he has you in his PoE (which is probably lip service to appease LLD), but he's zero desire to follow through on it and actually

vote

you. He'll vote you if not doing so would be a scumclaim, but otherwise, his lack of interest in wagoning you is apparent and has been the whole damn game.

[mastina]

mastina, your analysis combines your reasons for scum reading each individual as teams for the most part and mostly ignores how people justified their votes on Suripoko or elsewhere.

What part of "I haven't finished it", "I need more time", "I'm working on it", "it's incomplete", etc., was unclear to you Ivan?

'Cause I made it pretty damn clear that my analysis was unfinished. You literally fucking told me to post it in spite of me having said it wasn't done. So you get analysis that, surprise surprise, isn't finished, isn't complete.

It's not that I ignored people's justifications for their votes.

It's that I haven't yet had the time to check those out and refine the analysis from that. It was my starting point. It was not intended to be the final form, the final version. It was not intended to be the end-all be-all of my contributions. It was a rough draft. I don't have a final draft yet, but

you fucking asked me to post what I had

, and what I had was an unfinished draft.

T3 is didn't spew a claim and didn't townread you.

Yes, exactly.

T3 did not claim.

And more than that, T3 absolutely

should

be townreading me.

T3 has played more with me recently than any other player on mafiascum. He has seen both my towngame AND my scumgame. Beyond that? T3 is obsessed with meta'ing players. He has meta'd me in the past. In past games, T3 was able to look at my play and, with his meta knowledge, able to correctly reach the conclusion that I am town.

Here, he has gone out of his way to avoid giving a read on me. He knows that he can't say I'm scum without it being a scumclaim, and he knows that if he says I am town, it will basically prove I'm not bullshitting in that this is my towngame through and through. So the only thing he can do is what he

has

been doing, repeatedly, consistently: refusing to give a read at all.

Because it's the only option where the scum do not get put at a disadvantage.

Cakez didn't spew a claim, looks like scum, apparently defended me, and had too much info?

Yes.

And he is also in the list of players who absolutely

should

know that I am town here. SirCakez has seen both my towngame and scumgame incredibly recently. He's doing absolutely nothing he does as town. He's doing what he needs to in order to avoid being the elimination--but that's it.

Rogue isn't defending you.

Yes, which is egregious because both Malakittens and especially notscience were around (and this is especially relevant for notty) in the Pokemon game. (For the record, SirCakez was there, too, and present for the parts about notty.) Why's this so important?

Because in that game,

Spoiler: I made these posts and many more like them

Notty wants Mastina,

Notty thinks Mastina's role fits another scum player's role. Rather it compliments it. He'll have to explain it himself.

Notty can fuck off when it comes to this.
Role-wise I'm not going to say it's

impossible

for my role to be scum. It's definitely

possible

.
Creating a backup of a town role could be fairly strong if the town role is one scum could use.
But more than that, scum using one of their abilities on me could turn me into a 1x backup of their role.
Now, granted--there's a really damn confusing interaction that basically makes no sense if it were real, and that's Gypyx's role with my role.

MIRROR MOVE:

The user uses a move from the field.
◓ Once at night you may use one of your living or dead teammates move.
◓ If their move has a gated amount of uses, you will use one of their shots.
◓ You may not use a move that's uses have been depleted.
◓ You may not use one of your teammates moves the same night they are using the same move.
◓ When taking a passive move, your teammate loses any of its effects for the night of use.

If my role is real, how would Gypyx's interaction work with my role? Using my role would consume my shot, but using my role would be targeting me. Yet Gypyx can't get a copy of a move that's depleted. My role is a passive role, too, so it's a move that is simultaneously used every night, and yet no night. How would my role be classified in relationship to Gypyx's?

And then, even if I am targeted by someone and copy their move, would Mirror Move allow Gypyx to basically steal that move even though it wasn't technically my move? It's a move I copied, not a move I originally had.

These are interactions that the mod could have answers for, and if I was scum, there would be answers for them--but these are things that never got asked/addressed/etc. because there was no need...thanks to me not being scum with Gypyx.

Now, granted. You

could

argue that either scum were just so apathetic/detached/out of the game that they didn't notice, or that they did and the answers are in the scum PT and nobody shared them due to them being from the scum PT, but those add extra layers to require me to be scum, and doesn't cover the far more basic problem;

My role would be redundant with Gypyx's as Gypyx's is a better version of my role. My role requires me to be targeted by the scum player to create the copy of the move. Gypyx's can be done without being targeted and can be done even if the scum player in question is dead.

But there's more to it than that.

what do you think of Mastina using self-meta, I.e., they aren't very blame gamey as scum compared to as town mid game. Because they don't want to offend town and get exasperation voted?
Like, how likely is it that scum them makes that argument? It really doesn't feel very implausible to me. I would make similar arguments if I were pushed as scum. Or at least I think I would. If my scum game didn't suck.

I am not you. I am mastina. I operate by my own principles, rules, standards, thought processes, etc. The way I think, though not standard, is very well documented, and frankly?

Notty should remember the LAST time that I was accused of faking rage.
(Hint: I wasn't. Double hint: I was town. Triple hint, it technically wasn't the latest time I've raged as town, but it IS among the most infamous times I've raged as town. There's damn good reason that I am saying notty can fuck off, because notty SHOULD know fucking better.)

This is a search of all the games I've played in the Micro, Mini Theme, and Large Theme forums.

The last time I was accused of faking rage was in this game. (As a reminder: I

ate a ban

from that game--not fake. Also not scum. I was town.) It is not actually the game that notty would be familiar with.
Honorable mention: MBOS 4 I ate a warning. Not a ban but also not fake. And also not scum; I was town. I don't expect notty to be familiar with it tho.

I was also accused of faking rage in this game as well. I was town. But that's not the game notty should know I don't fucking fake rage from.

The most infamous example of me being accused of raging as scum?

Tales of You.

I refuse to believe that notty has forgotten one of the most infamous fucking games of all time. It's literally one of THE most iconic (in many bad ways) mafia games OF ALL TIME.

Did notty erase the memory of the town's incompetence that notty contributed to by eliminating the players with the highest read accuracy, myself included, that game?

Because I sure as fuck remember it.

The rage very much was there.

And very much was real.

And very much from town.

The closest I've ever gotten to raging as scum I'm pretty sure was Anything (fucking) Goes, and that was entirely different in tone, nature, etc. and largely with the help of my hydra buddy who was doing the VAST majority of the posting that game. Like, maybe 5% of the hydra's posts were mine? But it was mostly Katsuki.

Do you know what the biggest tell on my bloody flowchart is? The tell that is, above all tells, the tell that has the

absolute highest accuracy rate

of ANY of the items on the flowchart listed here?

It's quite literally, scumastina cannot rage, but town mastina can and does, to a dangerous, I-never-know-if-I-might-eat-a-game-ban levels of vitriol.

she insults people more as town (increasing the strength of related towntells), and she rages more as town (increasing the strength of that towntell)

I've explained the reasons for this across multiple games. I can track it down both as scum and town and in Mafia Discussion, but it's more than just my philosophy on playing scum involves "don't make enemies. You need the town to like you, because push come to shove if the choices are to eliminate a player people like versus eliminate a player people have issues with, they'll usually take the latter". It's more than that being the optimal play. It's more than just thinking that scum need to manipulate the town into being their allies, rather than antagonize them and make them enemies.

While that's all true, there's a bigger reason I cannot rage as scum.

Fuck theory.

I can subvert theory all I want.

The reason I can't rage as scum is because

I fundamentally cannot think that way as scum

.
How can I be angry at the town being correct on me?

I can, and do, get mad at players being "Right, For the Wrong Reasons".
It'd take some time to find, but I can track down being angry at players being right in their read but wrong in the reason and me being scum in that game.
Because that's genuine anger at a very real cause: an attack on the very principles I operate on.

For instance, saying I'd lie about real life circumstances to gain an advantage as scum (which people have done to me) is tantamount to outright accusing me of cheating, of lying, of being a rl scumbag, of going against the very things I stand for as a person and a player. It is questioning my integrity as an individual, it is doubting my principles and accusing me of being in violation of them.

Because I have VERY strong principles I operate on. These are not trust tells because they apply regardless of alignment. These are things that I fundamentally operate on as beyond just being a player, but being a person. A core aspect of my character. I have my own set of rules and regulations and principles. They largely align with the site, but I have some rules the site does not. (And at times, have violated rules that aren't violations to me but which the site considers to be.)

That

I can do.

But being accused of being scum for reasons that I know are more right than wrong or outright correct?

I literally

cannot

manage to be angry at that. After all--it's an accusation I know is right. It's an accusation that I see where they're coming from, know why they are seeing it, and while it can be frustrating that they are right, they're still RIGHT, I KNOW they're right, and

cannot

get angry at them.

I also cannot really get mad at the town for mislimming a townread of mine when I am scum--unless said town goes on to violate my principles, at least. Showing disrespect to the dead, blaming the dead exclusively and saying it's entirely their fault, etc. Things like that, I can get mad at the town for because it's genuinely honestly fucking disgusting.

But if the town

isn't

violating my principles with a mislim.

I can't get angry at it.

Because, again, as scum, I am genuinely more in the mindset of, "Girls Giggles Genocide". (Again, don't expect any living player to get that reference, but Gamma Emerald should.)
Which is, to say: I laugh my ass off as scum.

I might loathe drawing scum, but I still have a blast in it. I HATE being scum, but I still make the most out of being scum by basically hamming it up and loving the grandiose nature of having all the info and watching the town eat itself alive because they don't. Like the Among Us players the term originates from, as scum, I love playing the part of the villain, watching the town accuse each other, and laughing at the events going on with my extra knowledge.

So how can I get angry at the town furthering my own wincon? Town eliminating town is literally helping me.

I fundamentally

cannot

be genuinely angry, nor can I fake rage.



But I can go even further in showing why I am not scum.


If I am scum, there's two optimal usages of my role.
1: Not announcing it at all, and then having a scumbuddy silently target me with an ability to make me a backup of the scum with that ability, so that it catches the town off-guard.
2: Announcing it deliberately, and then avoiding having scum target me at all, hoping to pick up a useful town ability.

Neither strategy is necessarily more optimal than the other, but the two above are mutually exclusive. If you do one, you cannot do the other and have it be optimal; mixing the two is literally the

worst

thing you can do.

That said, option #1 is imo slightly stronger and more optimal.

You can argue that, me being mastina, I opted for option #2. I either didn't think of option #1 until after the fact, or considered option #2 to be better for towncred.

But then that runs into a problem: Dwlee targeted me N1.

Mixing town and scum targeting me is the exact worst possible combo, because it means I don't get a guaranteed copy of the scum role and the scum role that

should

be used elsewhere is being wasted on me instead of on others. Especially with certain town/scum role combos.

At this stage, for me to be scum, you need a lot of Coulds already to add up:
I COULD be a redundant scum role, when Gypyx's is a better version of mine.
I COULD have a role that has the really weird interactions with Gypyx's role while on the same team as Gypyx.
I COULD have the answers to these interactions in the scum PT and/or I COULD have been apathetic enough to have never asked about the interaction (in spite of it being mandatory for the mod, unless you want to argue that the mod COULD have not thought about the interaction and thus needed to improvise).
I COULD have not realized the optimal strategy was not claiming and/or I COULD have decided that the second strategy was overall more worth it.
I COULD have then had my entire scumteam not realize mixing the two strategies is the worst possible idea and that we needed to commit to one or the other and not mix-and-match. It COULD happen, in spite of the scumteam having imaginality (mechanics-focused), Gypyx (not a slouch on mechanics), me (very good at mechanics), and Woolax (decent at mechanics).

But then we get into D1.

I COULD have had an abnormal readslist for scumastina. (I have more to say about that, it was something I half-wrote but am probably going to save for a different post on a different day due to how much time this is taking and my tiredness levels.)
I COULD have had no scum north of null at all, and soft-distanced from the scum.

VOTE: woolax

For the record: I support the Woolax wagon and am incredibly tempted to vote there as I think the slot is scum.

But I kinda just wanna keep my vanity vote on SirCakez right now just as a statement that, no, I'm not joking with my scumread there; yes, I am serious; yes I think he is scum; yes I want to eliminate him.

But while that's all true, Woolax is also probably just scum so isn't a bad vote. In fact is explicitly a good vote that I support.

If the Woolax wagon were to die down in fact, I WOULD switch my vote there just to make sure it DIDN'T because I don't think the Woolax wagon SHOULD die down, I legit think that the Woolax wagon is probably the best wagon we can get today.

I'm just being stubborn and feel like my vote is best used elsewhere right now.

I COULD make this post as scum, as a way of distancing on Woolax without committing to the bus on them.
I should note however that while it'd take me time to locate, I've made this post in many many towngames of mine but absolutely ZERO scumgames of mine.
I COULD have this as my first scumgame where I used this tactic.

Mastina vote Dwelee, thanks.

How about we

don't

vote the player who I think is so conftown that if someone claimed a guilty on them I'd vote the person claiming the guilty?

Dwlee's my strongest townread.

I COULD make this post as scum to hard-commit to defending my scumbuddy, in spite of the guilty on them.
I COULD make this statement as scum in spite of it being

another

statement I've said in multiple towngames (again, could track down, but would take some time) yet never have said in any scumgame ever.
I COULD genuinely try to save my scumbuddy there.
I COULD have set up the interactions where I fake soft-picking up on Dwlee's role/actions.
I COULD fake not knowing that Dwlee wasn't the role I got, and/or genuinely make the mistake of not realizing it wasn't Dwlee's action I got.
I COULD retract my defense of Dwlee and hard-commit to the bus after it was clear that Dwlee was in fact guilty.
I COULD have pushed imaginality before there was pressure on imaginality.
I COULD have pushed imaginality on POE instead of more damning aspects.
I COULD have pushed imaginality on the Pooky push from him, instead of the shit roleclaim.
I COULD have faked not noticing his roleclaim. Or I COULD have genuinely not noticed it.
I COULD have then, after seeing things, not tried to save imaginality and backed up the town eliminating there.

And there's another thing:

Callout:
What the fuck, guys.

Unless the mods failed to notify me (I did ask them about this to be sure), literally nobody targeted me? Like. I literally TOLD y'all that I can duplicate a power if targeted by it. But as far as I can tell, literally nobody did.

Y'all are Dragon Tails / Circle Throwers / Whirlwinds in reverse. (I hope the intended meaning comes through.) I wasn't lying about my role so I do mean it; you SHOULD be targeting me if you have a strong role.

(That said, I suppose it's possible Gypyx targeted me and his role prevents me from using my role but oh well, only the mods know.)

I COULD have genuinely not received the info as scum that I should have received, but more than that, check out the bolded.
Story time: I was skimming the flips. I wasn't on my phone but I think that I was in a rush?

I actually thought Gypyx had flipped town at first.

I initially read Gypyx's flip as being a member of the town.

I didn't realize that Gypyx was a member of Team Rocket, so I read his role and I thought he was town with it when I made this post.

No, seriously.

Nobody noticed this the entire game apparently. I was expecting with us being down to one scum or so for someone to look at this and go "did mastina scumslip here by mentioning Gypyx interacting with her role when Gypyx was scum and his role couldn't interact with town?". But actually it's the opposite; I genuinely townslipped here hard by having initially misread Gypyx's flip as being town. I was confused when people mentioned Gypyx being a good Vig because I legit initially thought that Gypyx was a town modified UB, and it wasn't until some time later that I went back to reread and realized I had misread and that Gypyx was scum, not town, as I had initially mistakenly thought.

So I COULD be scum who is bullshitting this townslip.
I COULD be scum who genuinely scumslipped there.

And beyond that.

I COULD have executed on my "when everyone looks town, SOMEONE needs to not be town" philosophy--but I will say that I've had dozens of towngames where I have pushed that philosophy and pushed eliminations based off of it (including on big town players like Battle Mage and Lady Lambdadelta--probably most infamously, Team Mafia 2021 this year had me espousing this philosophy on D1)...
...And I've never once pushed for an elimination based off of that philosophy as scum.
"But wait, mastina...didn't you use it in Chrono Trigger?"
Well, actually--no. I didn't. I

outlined

my philosophy there. I laid out the actual methods I use as town--but if you read the game, I didn't push anyone using that philosophy. I MENTIONED the philosophy. I OUTLINED the philosophy. To this day, that game is actually probably the best explanation of what boils down to "everyone looks town, but SOMEONE needs to not be, so treat it appropriately and doubt all the town" basically. But while I

explained

the philosophy, I never

used

it that game.

This game COULD be the first scumgame that I did so.

And that's aside from the additional things I've gone into since then.
I COULD have had an insane boost in my postcount compared to my normal scumgame.
I COULD have phoneposted at work in spite of the fact that I never have done so as scum before.
I COULD have somehow faked rage. (Well no, not really, I really can't.)

I COULD have magically somehow upped the quality of my scumgame, to have it be higher than even peak scumastina performance levels, in spite of the fact that I've been in a scum slump for literally three years.

And this is probably not even all of the COULDs.

I've probably got more things that I could point out that are town-me and not scumastina, which add to the list of COULDs.

But how many COULDs does it take you before you begin to realize that any theory with me as scum is a violation of Occam's Razor never before seen in its absurdity? (Well aside from maybe the absurd accusations of me being scum in games like the two Jingle games because those were equally horseshit Occam's Razor violations.)

One or two COULDs could be true.

But how many COULDs does it take before the 'could' becomes 'basically impossible'? I counted ~30-35 COULDs added up in the above.

So how many COULDs does it take to clear me from being scum?

Those 2 scums being in the dead center of Mastina's reads though.

I mean, that was explicitly the null zone--I had no scum north of null! I just had a LOT of nulls at that point in time because I was ~struggling~.

given they haven't had much luck with their scum approach maybe they chose a more traditional scum reads list.

Oi!

My approach as scum, I'll have you know, is

very

effective!
It does precisely what I design it to do.
1: It hides who my scumbuddies are when I flip scum.
2: It makes town players look like my scumbuddies when I flip scum.
3: It makes reading my iso a waste of time, because I don't spew scumbuddies as scum or town as town, and usually, this is mutual with the people who pushed/defended me not being spewed as town/scum from their positions on me.
4: It makes me look town enough that I am usually not the first elimination in the game, making me

just

town enough to not be seen as the best D1 elimination.

I achieve all four of these in basically every scumgame that I play!

Now, granted!

You are correct about one thing: I have

shit

luck as scum.
If my entire scumteam save me botches their fakeclaims, it aint gonna go well for me down the line because step four keeps me alive only temporarily. (The average modern-scumastina death time is D3.)
If I deliberately sacc myself on D1 because my scumbuddy was the counterwagon to me and I'm a goon compared to my scumbuddy being a PR, and then after I die to saccing myself said scumbuddy is eliminated anyway (and not because of failing steps 1-3, because the players eliminating said scumbuddy ignored interactions altogether and just voted the player who looked most scum by play, interactions be damned), then it aint gonna go well for my team down the line because my death was in vain.

But like.

Those aren't things that I, personally, can control. I can't do anything about it. I can't influence factors like that.

So like.
I keep doing it anyway because why wouldn't I? It does precisely what it is designed to do, and does it

damn

well.

scumastina might be night to my day, but in spite of how painfully obvscum I am as scum, I

still

use the same strategies time and time and time and time again as scum...because they still

work

at doing

exactly

what they are designed to do.
What they are designed to do is also fairly effective at helping my team, too!
But, well, it DOES run afoul of, as you said it: bad luck. The strategy is fairly effective but it's not foolproof so with bad luck, it's still loss after loss after loss. (Granted. It isn't all luck, obviously. I'm shit at scum now compared to peak scumastina. My strategy keeps me from being complete deadweight but I am NOT good at scum right now. Being unable to endgame means that my scumteam fundamentally needs to plan for my inevitable pre-endgame death which is a disadvantage. I manage to work with said handicap quite well, but like...is a stopgap measure obv.)

Lacking bad luck tho, you'd be surprised how often it still works. The four goals I want to achieve in my scumgame can and

have

gotten me scum wins, even after I entered my scum funk! (Animals UPick is probably the most prominent example, or at least the example that most immediately comes to my mind. I wasn't the D1 elimination, and after I did die, I didn't spew my scumbuddies as scum and didn't spew town as town and my scumbuddy did win the game in the end. This, in spite of the fact that I put in absolutely zero effort to disguise it being my scumgame. Like, I was, to use the term, openwolfing; I was blatantly scum with zero attempts made to appear as anything but. Still worked tho because my scum strategy, while not as good as peak scumastina, works well enough.)

It's not every game but it's not like scumastina has a 0% winrate these days. It's probably like 33-40% if I had to guess. (I dunno, would have to look at all post-funk scumgames and do the W/L ratio there, which is :effort: best spent elsewhere.)

Please don't post at work.

-Bell

Stop saying that I could be scum for bullshit reasons and maybe I'll have less reason to.

This is literally me at my most active.

And scumastina is many things, but active is not among them.

That's been true even before my scum ability tanked. I was closer in levels to my town self, but both in the amount amount and type, I had obvious scumtells.

This is true. I don't know where you got the fuel for this if you're scum this game, given you've been disappointing yourself for about a year(?) now?

-Bell

Three years, actually.

I posted in GD about it, would need to check the dates there to find out.

I literally never do more
Than what I am now.

I've, what? Nearly 200 posts in the game?

I'd be at half that AT MOST if scum.

Sure, I don't have 400+ posts, but I am doing the most I can given the circumstances.

As for voting you?

Half because BOTH heads should fucking know that I am town here. This isn't your first game with me; you've literally both had dozens.

I wanted to add tho:

Scumastina has ~20-50 posts per game. Stretch amount, MAYBE 75.

Town me averages ~100-300, with the lowest being 75.

I am not you.
I am mastina.
I operate by my own principles, rules, standards, thought processes, etc.
The way I think, though not standard, is very well documented, and frankly?

North should remember the LAST time that I was accused of faking rage.

Notty tells me that Mastina always claims their role day 1.
Or something, or has done it as scum in the past.
Mastina, as a categorical self-examiner, what say you to this maybe half-remembered charge?

-Bell

I claim my role at the time that I see it most appropriate to do so.
I can softclaim at the time I see fit to.
I can exaggerate, obfuscate, lie by omission, or even tell a self explanatory lie (e.g. maco <-> BP), and I get roles I do that on D1 quite often.

I WILL say tho that I never* fakeclaim as scum tho.

*can go into this, but really outta time

Am going up second, so got an extra half hour.

The asterisk is because technically, I HAVE, it's just that one game taught me to never again do it, and the one and only other time I did, it was my only option to win, and was done in lylo after I had the entire towns info to craft my own.

Generally speaking, it's not that I refuse to fakeclaim. I just genuinely think that my best chance at winning is honesty, so I never fakeclaim as scum, because I can't back up a fakeclaim convincingly.

If I claim something, it needs to be obvious to others that it's true.

Now, this policy doesn't hold for town me, since I can and do gambit. The Mason Gambit is the OTHER Mastina Gambit. (Self-voting to either take out a scum or protect a town being the og mastina gambit.)

But obviously, that's of little relevance.

I'll be returning to my claim when I get back home to address 5960/5961, but at work, this is as much as I can go into it.

notscience saw me make those posts and should have calibrated his gauge on my towngame from them.
Malakittens saw me make those posts and should have calibrated her gauge on my towngame from them.
SirCakez saw me make those posts and should have calibrated his gauge on my towngame from them.

So none of them calling me town here is in fact: hugely fucking suspect, yes.

Does it change your opinion that I had TMI if I tell you I was a player in both the games I cited where Pooky quickhammered as scum?

That would require me to have actually read the games where Pooky quickhammered as scum when frankly I don't read games I'm not in unless I'm a reviewer of them and even then I only skim.

I realize the games were linked.

I just didn't click them.

And by your analysis, there are three players who should "know" this is your towngame, and yet none of us do? (Counting notscience, T3, and SirCakez here). We can't all be scum.

(slight fix as I am not counting you, it's SC.) Oh I'm aware that not everyone who should know this is my towngame can be scum.

Fuck, even LLD should know that this is my towngame. LLD has seen my towngame and my scumgame more than almost any player in recent history. (Only T3 exceeds her pretty sure.) She's seen my scumgame like three times or so and my towngame an equal amount. She absolutely

should

know that this is absolutely not my scumgame and yet she still fucking insists on keeping me in the PoE anyway.

And yet she's conftown set to die in spite of how she's basically gamethrowing in not realizing I'm town here.

The only reason I've not used much much much stronger language in terms of LLD here is,
1: I don't want to eat a ban (and the things I want to say to LLD's lack of townread on me very well might be banworthy), and,
2: there's already bad blood between me and LLD, I came into this game wanting to

mend

the bad blood, not make it worse, and if I said what I wanted about the fucking conftown player who has every fucking reason to fucking know I am town here not seeing that I am town, it'd do exactly that, make the bad blood worse because yes I have some VERY FUCKING STRONG WORDS I want to say about that fucking refusal to acknowledge that I am town here for whatever fucking reason.

But I digress.

My

point

here, is:

Yes, I am aware that not everyone who should fucking know that this is my scumgame, can be scum.

There's literally four of them, and one of them is conftown.

But the fact that they can't all be scum does not make their lack of saying I am obvtown any less suspect.

It means that the towns in them are fucking gamethrowing, yes!
It means that whoever is town in that group is a fucking moron because they have the knowledge/experience to know I am town, see that I am a suspect, and yet in spite of literally all their fucking experience telling them that I am town they are not defending me while I am under pressure.

But while the town players who know my meta are gamethrowing by not defending me, the scum players not defending me are playing to their wincon, so the lack of defense is still suspect from them.

What's your current take on Rogue, both how they jumped on Suripoko and their discussion of that elimination today?

Oh it's incredibly scummy.

But the thing is.

T3 is scummy; Rogue is scummy; SirCakez is scummy.

At least one is, by necessity, town, but I legit can't tell who is town in them because they're fucking all playing like scum. All of them. I don't know who the town is in them but whoever the town in there is they're literally playing the worst fucking towngame of their life because they're literally playing like scum in spite of not being scum. Because all three are basically scum in everything.

[mastina]

mastina, how come you've spent so much time in your discussion of me talking about how I'm manipulating and pocketing LLD...and yet you've never asked LLD outright if she thinks I'm posting in the neighborhoods in a way that's meant to pocket her?

Why ask what LLD has proven time and time again to be true?

The evidence is in LLD's posting.

She has, not once, given the chance of you being scum real thought.

She asked questions about why you would do what you have done if you were scum--

But after I gave good answers to that?

Answers she then ignored?

She kept her read on you anyway--because she was never going to change it. Because she was already pocketed.

If she were serious in doubting you were town, then she would have listened to the responses to her questions there and engaged further there and taken it into consideration and thought about at least the possibility.

She has not. Because she's not serious in doubting your townness; she's locked you in as town, and that's all there is to that.

Thus: pocketed.

Inherent in the nature of being pocketed is not realizing you are being pocketed, Ivan. That's self-evident.

Do you think that if I asked SirCakez "do you think you are being pocketed in the neighborhood with Pooky" in Pokemon the answer would've been anything other than 'no'? Because inherent in being pocketed is not realizing you are being pocketed, the answer to "is it possible you're being pocketed" will ALWAYS be "no".

That's pretty damn self-evident. A pocketed player won't, when asked "hey are you being pocketed?", say yes.
That's like asking a scum player "hey are you scum?".

It's a stupid-ass question and you should fucking know that.

Or asked Shiro yesterday or today what her opinion is?

Well, multiple reasons, actually.
1: Shiro is not going to die any time soon. I've all the time in the world to talk more to Shiro. (Well not quite, but you get what I mean.)
2: Shiro is not a player I expect much from. Shiro isn't a player who I really expect to be able to bounce ideas off of. Shiro isn't a player that I expect to, if I give good analysis, for her to build off of my analysis. She might might

might

be able to give me inspiration (and in fact, she did! Something Shiro said was actually why I got the starting point analysis that I intended to finish but posted the rough draft of--without Shiro, I wouldn't have made that rough draft at all in all likelihood), but she's not exactly a pillar of support.
3: Shiro is busy. And Shiro is always a low-effort, low-posting player. She posts very little and gives very little. That doesn't give me much to react off of.
4: All respects to Shiro, but my general assumption has been that Shiro has just been sheeping you/LLD in everything and has had a "brain shut off" game where she hasn't given thought to anything because of trusting you/LLD. Obviously, this could be a faulty assumption on my end and if so I owe an apology to Shiro for the insult, but if it's true, then me asking Shiro what her opinion is? Not gonna actually do much, now, would it, if her opinion is just a regurgitation of LLD's.

Why do you keep talking about how skilled LLD is, and yet you assume she'd fall prey to a neighborhood pocketing from someone whose main she didn't know until recently?

LLD is good, LLD is skilled. LLD is not a goddess of scumhunting. LLD might be Paragon-leveled in her scumhunting skills. That does not mean she is 100% accurate in her reads. She can, has, and does, make mistakes. She can, and has, townread scum strongly (and, inversely, she does push through eliminations on town that she thought were scum; we literally have proof of that from her D1 push on Dwlee).

And no player is immune to being pocketed in a neighborhood.

No player is immune to confirmation bias of being convinced a player who is scum, is town.

Not even LLD.

LLD is good. LLD is one of the best damn town players on site. LLD is probably one of the top ten scumhunters around active onsite. But LLD is not perfect. LLD is not 100% accurate. LLD makes mistakes. And neighborhoods are one of the easiest places to make mistakes on. Scum neighborhoods are disproportionately powerful.

LLD probably has an average accuracy rate of like 80-90%. But that's still a miss rate of 10-20%. And it can be higher in a specific game. LLD might have one game where she's actually in fact 100%, but the tradeoff to that is that she can have an off-day, an off-game, where she's less than 50%.

LLD's stance on you is that you're town, period. Outside of neighborhood content that she has not disclosed, her only reasons have been from your roleclaim and "why would Ivan conftown me". I've given reasons why you would conftown her as scum but she never gave them serious thought because she's made up her mind on you being town and has made up her mind that I am in the suspect pool (even though she has every fucking reason to, if she were thinking clearly, know that I am town here).

I know for a fact that LLD's read on the gamestate isn't 100% correct because if it were, then she would have me as town. Rather than inventing occam's razor violating reasons for me to not be conftown, she'd be looking at the facts and know that I can't be scum here.

This doesn't mean LLD is having an off game necessarily. If you ARE town, Ivan, then while LLD isn't 100% right, she'd be at that ~80% mark imo.

But if you are scum, Ivan, then this would be an off-game for LLD. And it's not a fucking accurate reflection of reality if you say LLD cannot have an off game. If LLD were honest with herself, and I would expect her to be in this regard, she would be the first to say that, yes, she has off games.

Now, granted, I'd expect a bit of self-delusion (bad term, sorry, can't think of a better one) in not recognizing an off-game until after the fact, after she's dead. LLD is not the kind of player I would expect to know that she's having an off game when she is having an off game. She's humble enough and honest enough to, after seeing the facts, realize, "this was an off game for me, sorry", but due to the passion behind her reads, the conviction she has behind herself (basically, she has justified confidence in her skills because she's right ~80% of the time and when you're right ~80% of the time, why would you think that you're at a lower percentage than that? You know from your extensive history that you're good, damn good, and thus have confidence in not being wrong), I genuinely don't think she

can

recognize she is having an off-game while she is still alive in the game she is having an off-game. (Similarly to Shiro here, tho, I am fully offering an apology to LLD if this assessment of her is wrong and she can recognize an off game when having an off game.)

[mastina]

i suspected he was

Serious question.

Has T3 given a single read on a player today?

I sure don't see one.

For that matter, what reads has T3 given this game?

Limming ivan is bad

Suri should die today

bombay is null town

jjh is town after a reread during the night.

As a result of the chess game, Dwlee should be eliminated.

lld is probably town?

'Cause this is all I found except going way way back to super duper early.

Not a single stated read on Rogue ("not getting townreads" is not aread).
No read on SirCakez.
Nothing on skitter.
Nothing on StrangeMatter.
Nothing on Shiro.
Nothing on me.

And even those opinions given being weak.
LLD probably town, but could bus.
Bombay nulltown, but could reassess.

You get the idea.

Why absolutely nothing said for half the players in the game and the weak-ass reads on the remainder?

[mastina]

(I admit that I lack focus right now. I have four main scumspects; by necessity, two are town; I don't know which two are town; as a result, I don't really have a focal point; I'm kinda all over the place. But yes I'm pretty damn sure both scum are in {T3, Ivan, SirCakez, Rogue}.)

[mastina]

in Pokemon I had a pretty strong sense that you were town that I am not getting here

Bullshit. That wasn't you in Pokemon and you claiming it was is disingenuous as fuck, and this is

exactly

the same me as that game.

what logic points to you being town here?

Aside from the fact that my role when buffed by Shiro literally made me a Friendly Neighbor?

How about the fact that this is my town meta ten times over and I left scumastina's range a long long time ago and that this is night/day different from my scumplay? Scumplay you've seen intimately and should know what it looks like? You've seen what I look like as scum; you've seen what I look like as town. And this is

not

the scumplay. Not even remotely. It's literally the opposite in every single way. Activity. Investment. Passion. Conviction. Presence. Mindset. Push. Literally every possible metric, this is outside of my scum range. (At least the scum range of me in the last three years.)

and you did a ton to avoid voting Suripoko yesterday

Because I, correctly, called Suripoko an elimination being pushed by scum.

Guess what?

It's basically mathematically impossible for Suripoko to not have been pushed by scum.

Meaning that I was right. There's at least one scum on Suripoko, with a chance of there being two.

In a mini, would

you

join a wagon with two scum on it? Or would you fight hard to shut that wagon down because it has two scum on it?

Yes, I didn't consider the possibility that Suripoko was bussed.

But that's proof that I am town, because if I was scum then I would've known about the bus.

okay give me those receipts please
a "hard defense" is what you're claiming so lets see it

Well I am feeling too tired/lazy to do it for the entire game but I need not do the entire game to show it off:

I don't want Cakez at any potential XyLim, but I don't think he's the right choice today.

Keep in mind that with a mislim today,

tomorrow is XyLim

. Ivan HIMSELF pointed this out to LLD. Ivan pointed out that with a mislim today, tomorrow is mylo.

Ivan, in spite of saying he doesn't want SirCakez near mylo/lylo, wants to not vote SirCakez today, in spite of how if we mislim today,

tomorrow is mylo

. And Ivan KNOWS that a mislim today means tomorrow is mylo, he literally pointed it out to LLD.

So saying "I don't want SirCakez today" and "I don't want SirCakez in mylo" is literally cognitive dissonance.

The not wanting SirCakez today is to protect SirCakez; the not wanting SirCakez in mylo is appeasing LLD while she's still alive.

[mastina]

Bombay, consider what assumptions people are making about the chess game, and consider how you would have reacted to the chess game if you'd been the T3 player, both from a T3-scum and T3-town POV. You can disagree obviously, but I think this requires more in-depth consideration.

The thing is:

T3 said to kill Dwlee after Dwlee denied involvement in the chess game.

Fair enough, T3 had reason to believe Dwlee had TMI'd being a part of the chess game and could have thought that not claiming it was suspect, right?

Right?

That narrative makes sense, right? Of T3 seeing Dwlee TMI the chess game-->Dwlee denies involvement in the chess game-->suspecting Dwlee from it, right?

...Except there's a problem with that narrative:

idk anything about the chess game

i know something about it, but

i am not a player

(as of now)
i won't elaborate further, there's no point in doing so.

T3 was guilty of doing the

very thing he accused Dwlee of being scum for doing

.

T3 TMI'd the chess game in the exact way that Dwlee did, and yet in spite of that, accused Dwlee of being scum. Why didn't T3 go "oh Dwlee is doing the same thing I am doing, they're more likely town from it" and instead have a thought process that boils down to "oh Dwlee is doing the same thing I am doing, Dwlee must be scum from it"?

Because if T3 were town that would literally be the case.

It doesn't fit.

[mastina]

Look at this bullshit argument chainsawing for Suri

We know scum bussed Suripoko so you're literally proving that I'm town for having pointed out that scum were voting Suripoko.

[mastina]

Nope that’s not how my ability works. I protected Shiro hoping they would be NKed but as it turns out my ideas are terrible.

You...didn't know Shiro's claim?

That's rough.

Also, I have a clarifying question for Mastina. Is your ability still loyal? Did it work?

Sadly not loyal--Shiro actually made me disloyal last night (which isn't as good imo because loyal would've allowed me to unlock my crier ability and IC'd me while also conftowning my target; disloyal can potentially give a guilty but is far more likely to fail).

I can double-check with the mods to see if I have a way of knowing if my crier has been unlocked, but I was not told it was unlocked or anything; I'm not sure if I can get that info. (It'll obviously help a lot if I can get the info but if I can't...)

Still tho, I figured that IF I did succeed with a disloyal, the scum I succeeded on might not claim it, so I was trying to aim for a player that you might be watching, so I targeted StrangeMatter last night. (Basically, you shouldn't see me if I failed, but you should see me if I succeeded. But I didn't know who you'd be targeting, so I had to take an educated guess on who to target.)

As for scum, technically speaking, we have:
1-2 in {T3, Rogue} (we

know

that scum

must

have bussed, so there's a

requirement

for one scum minimum there);
0-1 in {Bombay, Ivan}.

Technically speaking.

Bombay is not scum with T3 (this should go without saying because it's pretty damn obvious).

And while it's

possible

Ivan's scum, with SirCakez not as scum I actually think that Ivan's town.

So the scum should be {T3, Rogue} or {Bombay, Rogue}, probably the former. (The latter would be more trusting in LLD's reads, but the former is what my personal read is.)

It should be noted that while Rogue is probably scum regardless, Rogue cannot be the poisoner due to having been blocked yesterday, unless poison can bypass a direct roleblock. So the poisoner should be whichever the scum is in {T3, Bombay}.

Not voting yet tho obv since with StrangeMatter's claim to have been poisoned, that'd make this a weird form of mylo.

[mastina]

no eliminating Rogue on autopilot. Literally everyone is or has advocated that now, which means there's bussing, and we need to sort out second scum.

Well thanks to the poison we've got a permanent mylo going on, presumably. 5 alive going into night (StrangeMatter dead, our elimination dead), then either a direct scum nightkill for 4, or a poison for 5 with one to be dead at the end of the day phase.

So scum bussing is, explicitly, something that they can afford to do.

That said, yes, second scum does need to be sorted.

I do think it's just T3 here tho.

Also, sorry, SM, but you did know that Shiro is a hider

Since this has been outted, I feel the need to point out that's how there's SEVEN claimed sources of kill interference:
LLD's bulletproof.
Your bodyguard.
StrangeMatter's jailkeep.
Shiro's hide.
Bombay's commute.
Rogue's weird-ass doctor claim.
T3's strongwilled doctor claim.

We know the first four to be town.

But the latter 3 pretty much is guaranteed to have the remaining two scum. Because 5/10 players having kill-interference mechanics is as much as I think would be acceptable. 6 is literally over half the town having access to them, and 7 is mechanically impossible now.

mastina, can you explain how unlocking a crier ability makes you IC yourself?

Because with loyal/disloyal attached to my actions, if it succeeded twice (after having first succeeded on jjh without either of those modifiers), then that would confirm that I used my action successfully as both loyal and disloyal. Which would help to confirm my alignment and the alignment of my targets. Me being able to bypass

one

(dis)loyal as scum might be possible; me being able to bypass

two

becomes far less credible.

And why you didn't target a scum read?

Because I wanted to send my message to whoever Bombay was going to be watching for extra ability to verify that my night action worked the way I intended it to.

Since my understanding is landing a message would be the third to unlock crier status, and the act of unlocking it would confirm to you and ultimately the game if the message went through?

Well I hadn't asked the mods about that until today. I wasn't sure if I would get a notification of my crier being unlocked or not. As it turns out, I will be explicitly told if an action I didn't have previously useable becomes available, per the mods, but I hadn't asked that question until today.

(This also means that, explicitly, my action did not work last night. Had it, I would've unlocked the crier, but I did not unlock the crier because the mods did not tell me I had unlocked the crier.)

No one would have know you were disloyal, why not try and trick a scum player?

Well the message I sent was worded in a way that could do exactly that, but smart scum might be able to figure out they need to lie. After all, if I was actually loyal, they'd know they wouldn't have received a message because I am town and they are not, so they'd be able to figure out that I am not loyal if they got the message and thus from there they may be able to deduce the disloyal.

So I had incentive to target a player who would be watched, so that if I did get a hit, then the scum would be outted from it.

Mastina seems mech town, but Ivan is considering Mastina used a strongman to both message LLD and Poison her at the same time. Mastina then also targeting the second poison target gives more credence to that then I originally wanted to give.

There's a problem with that.

Where's my message, then?

I sent a message to both LLD and to StrangeMatter. LLD got the message while I was loyal; StrangeMatter did not while I was disloyal. Yet the poison applied to both LLD

and

to StrangeMatter. But the message only went to LLD.

It again runs into a violation of occam's razor.

The simplest explanation for the situation is that my role functions precisely the way I have said it does. I send a message. On the night I was loyal, it worked because LLD and I are both town; on the night I was disloyal, it failed because StrangeMatter and I are both town.

The explanation required for me to be scum is that the scum roleblocked LLD (keep in mind we don't know who the scum roleblocker is), scum poisoned her, and I strongman messaged her, sending four night actions towards her and bypassing the loyal, and then that last night scum poisoned StrangeMatter but I somehow did not message StrangeMatter in spite of how I would need to have done both the night before. Meaning that for me to have been scum, scum would have needed to be able to use four actions on LLD N2, and then in spite of that, scum being able to only use two actions on StrangeMatter last night with the message not among them.

That would line up with the timeline that T3's ability was not active Night 1 because Dwlee won, and a normal night kill happened that night. But that the scum team has used the poison kill both nights since.

So I'm more asking this to StrangeMatter/Shiro (and maybe Ivan) than you because of their (conf)townness, but:

Do you think we should be aiming for the poisoner and eliminate T3 over aiming for still-basically-guaranteed-scum in the form of Rogue?

Mastina is town don't even try to muddy that.

What was the discussion like leading up to the SM target choice? What was her reaction to the Cakez flip in your neighborhood?

Sadly there wasn't much on either end because we were both fairly busy. I did some solving, Shiro asked me who I wanted to target, I laid out why I wanted to target StrangeMatter; Shiro asked about targeting Bombay instead, but also noted that StrangeMatter was a question mark. (I can do a more detailed paraphrase tomorrow if you want.)

I'm trying to figure out what to make of her here.

I've offered the receipts for why this is my towngame before. Aside from my flowchart, there's also literally three years of proof for why this is my towngame.

That, plus again: saying that I am scum is a violation of occam's razor, requiring speculation of an unproven strongman to bypass Loyal. An unproven, otherwise unseen, otherwise unknown role. Something there's no proof of. Something there's no evidence of. Literally paranoia for the sake of paranoia. Literally discrediting conftown from being conftown by inventing nonexistence reasons for doubting the clear.

When the simplest explanation of a loyal result is that it was loyal.

Plus, I asked this question yesterday. The mods didn't answer it, but it should be possible to get an answer from them, yes?

MOD: if a player had a strongmanned action, and a loyal modifier to that action, and they targeted someone of a different alignment, would the Strongman cause the action to succeed or would the Loyal cause the action to fail?

If the mods answer this with "the action would fail", would you agree that the strongmanned mailman theory was bullshit?

[mastina]

Also, you are making the occam's razor thing more complicated then it actually is.

The requirements for it to work are exactly that you are an (obviously) unclaimed strongman. That's it. That would have allowed you to both message LLD and poison her despite being made loyal.

That would require the poison to not be attached to the message. Which would thus require a scumastina to be a Multitasking Strongman Poisoner Messenger.

So no, I'm not making it more complicated than it is; you're consistently simplifying a situation which there's no simple simplification. Me being town has one ridiculously simple explanation.

Me being scum requires the existence of multiple unproven things that there's zero proof of and decent evidence of it not existing.

What that means is that

it is impossible for us to win if Rogue and Mastina are both town

, so we get to play this game under the assumption that one of the MUST be scum.

Mastina, Rogue is now confirmed scum from your POV (and vice versa). You're welcome.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that the mods would let that play out to the very end because the scum haven't won in that scenario until they do submit the correct kill. So we wouldn't have lost today; we'd not even lose going into night. It'd only be when scum locked in the correct nightkill that scum would win.

That said, I'm probably voting Rogue anyway because Rogue is probably just scum anyway, so...

[mastina]

My point was that considering the other possibility is a waste of time. Because if you and Rogue were both town, we lost. Literally a waste of time for us to consider that scenario, because in that scenario we have no way to win. So, we should always play as if it is impossible, and play to win in the other possibilities.
I guess the more accurate statement is "Rogue is either scum from your pov, or we have already lost the game and none of this matters. Either way, you play that out as if they are confirmed scum."

That's fair!

I'm not voting yet tho because that'd be self-hammer range I think for Rogue, so, letting day play out etc.

[mastina]

and that you hitting all the notes on me you used to back in 2013-2014 is just a coincidence.

Uh you are aware that my meta changes over time, right?

I mean to some extent it's cyclical and even the flowchart is out of date, but like. A lot of the things in there still hold true.

I believe the flowchart notes for instance that my towngames have become a lot more logical?

I might've even included a note on how scumastina is far more of a lurksack these days and town-me is more active.

But like. My townplay these days is the scumplay of old; my scumplay these days is the worst of my towngame of old. (There was an era when town-me was incredibly inactive, prod dodging, producing no content, etc. I remember one mini modded by Jake from State Farm where I literally did nothing, and Antihero's og Chemistry game where I literally did nothing. So there was an era of town-me from about back then when I did literally nothing as town, but that's my scumgame these days.)

If you want a look at what scumastina has been as of late:
This was the first of the modern scumastina.
I then immediately/concurrently to that? Got this game which pretty much killed my will to play scum forever.

Now, I did get vaguely close to a good scumgame, but you can clearly tell that even that's not peak scumastina and obviously not town-me, and it was temporary; I regressed again to my obvscum self quickly.

Case and point, obvscum zero-motivation scumastina.

And it even got worse than that.

Down to this level.

This is genuinely my skill cap as scum, what scumastina is capable of these days.

In contrast,
This is what my town games as of late.
You can really see the huge difference in my play when I am given a town alignment. It really shows strongly in my play that I have received a town role PM in my towngames.

It's genuinely as simple as "if mastina is invested in the game, trying, and posting, with the posts as content rather than prodges and fluff/filler, she's town". There's nuances to it as well; scumastina can't get angry whereas town me can. And town mastina is passionate whereas scumastina's "passion" comes across as exactly what it is, faked stilted and artificial.

But this is never my scumgame.

When I said that everyone should know that this is my towngame.

I meant it.

Because the difference between my towngame and my scumgame is literally night and day. This

cannot

be my scumgame, because I'm literally not capable of doing this as scum. It's literally impossible.

Yes, it was within my skill circa 2013-2014. Peak scumastina era. Nothing was out of my scum range back then; I could genuinely do anything back then as scum and my scumgame was much better than my towngame.

But things change. I just lost my moxie/mojo/whatever you want to call it. Lost my spark. Lost my desire, lost my interest, whatever. For playing scum. So I just...can't play scum.

I should be conftown but I shouldn't

need

to be conftown in order to still be obvtown.

[mastina]

Spoiler: Rogue was

Welcome to Subreddit Mafia!

After watching Arcane:

You are r/Arcane

Your Abilities are:

• Your voice and your vote
  
• You have a factional Private thread with [REDACTED] here: (link)
  
• During Pregame you must choose a side: Piltover or Zaun.
  • If you choose Piltover, you will have a 1-shot Ninja and a 1-shot Strongman modifier when you make the factional kill.
    
  • If you choose Zaun, when you make the factional kill it will be a Poisoning that kills your target at the end of the following day.

Your Win Condition is:
You win when

Mafia

achieve numerical parity with

Town

, or nothing can prevent that from occurring.

The game thread is here.

Please confirm by replying to this PM with your alignment, and with the bolded line from the rules in the game thread.

So this flip should remove all the doubt around me and 100% prove beyond a shadow of a doubt why I am conftown.

Do I need to spell it out for you?

[mastina]

T3, I take it you protected Mastina over Ivan? What were you thoughts in making that choice?

Shiro, do you have any way to stop hiding, or are you locked in forever?

Respectfully, I believe that Shiro shouldn't share any role details.

While we are in Mylo with two conftown, as a precaution, we shouldn't let the scum know what they are up against.

It's like 99% just T3 here (the 1% being that it's you, Bombay), but in the very VERY unlikely event that we're wrong, better safe than sorry, and it's safer to not give the scum a roadmap for how to win.

[mastina]

Also yes, my crier ability was unlocked, when not phoneposting or dealing with my room's rat infestation, I'll send a message.

[mastina]

Ivan typed up a mechanical way it was still you in the hood over night (you can confirm it exists with Shiro if you would like).

Why am I not surprised that after the way people bullshitted a reason for me to not be conftown was literally modconfirmed false by the scumflip,
That Ivan invented another reason for me to not be conftown?

This is literally like saying a cop clear isn't conftown because "it could be a godfather", seeing a godfather flip, and then coming up with some form of bullshit to keep the accusation going rather than accepting that maybe, just MAYBE, a player who is conftown is actually fucking conftown.

I'm town by play; I'm literally conftown from role mechanics; literally the only reason to not conftown me is based around violation after violation of occam's razor that, after being proven wrong, is replaced with a different violation of occam's razor.

There is no simple solution for me being scum.

Because the simplest explanation is that conftown is just conftown.

[mastina]

The roles that could do that would be Bus Driver, Deflector, or Redirector.
--------
So, I think we can say that the last scum has one of those abilities. So, the question was, T3 or Mastina.
-------
Ivan landed on you, Mastina. You were loyal, and you targeted Rogue (who was scum). And everything moved to LLD. It moved your message and it moved the jailkeep (and if bus driver over redirector, then it also moved the poison kill that Rogue aimed at themselves).

That wouldn't work.

Loyal is a passive/modifier. It exists at every level of the order of operations. It cannot be made to succeed on someone that it shouldn't succeed on. Loyal is not based on who you TARGET; Loyal is based on who you HIT. LLD got my message, so is provably who I HIT with Loyal. (And happens to also be who I targeted but that's beside the point.) It doesn't matter if I

had

been redirected, Loyal trumps redirect because Loyal is a passive/modifier to a role and not something that works on initial target but on final target.

Plus, miscellaneous actions are after redirect actions per NAR. The action would never land on Rogue in the first place because it'd be redirected

before

landing on Rogue, not after.

[mastina]

I have not asked the mods, but Ivan said that she did ask. She said their take was that modifiers resolved before a bus driver, and confirmed that a loyal player could target someone of their same alignment, and then be bus driven to someone of the other alignment.

She said their take was that modifier

checks

resolved before a bus driver

It causes the role to behave as though it were roleblocked unless the target has the same alignment as the user.

This is the wording on the wiki
Ivan confirmed that in this scenario the "target" would have been rogue, and the loyal check would pass prior to the bus driver happening.

What the FUCK, Cabd/ffery.

If a COP targets a player and is redirected, their result is "your target". TARGET. On the REDIRECTED player.

If Cop A targets player B and is redirected to player C, the cop doesn't receive a result on player B; the cop receives a result on player C. And the cop's result is "you target (which in this case is player C) is...". Target.

RESULTS ARE BASED ON WHO YOU HIT NOT WHO YOU TARGET.

But I suppose there's not much point in debating this until postgame. Suffice to say, I

should

be conftown here

if the mods used the rules that they

should

use

. But I digress, it's not hunting for mafia.

bombay is scum, because mastina is town.

Uh.

T3, could your doctor protection stop the poison kill? Similar to how Strange Matter's could?

i protected you

VOTE: T3

[mastina]

For the record;
No redactions needed to the PT especially considering that the redactions will highlight the mod error in my role PM.

(I did not receive what the mods used/posted.)

Also I stand by the redirect mechanics being bullshit.

They worked out

in my favor

, but they

shouldn't

have.

Also also I was quite miffed that nobody except jjh was townreading me on play since this was literally the first time in like

four years

I've played this way as scum and I genuinely broke half a dozen towntells of mine this game.

[mastina]

I even considered the flavor of the hawkshot ability, and did not see it. So :/

For the record my role was not suited to Ashe at all imo. It was pretty bullshit.

Ashe does not imply redirection or puppetmastery whatsoever (that's more Lissandra's wheelhouse or LeBlanc's), and hawkshot being a messenger itself makes very little sense.

So I was also quite miffed by that.

I didn't lie about my role (except by omission) and I didn't lie when I said:
Yes, I agree it was not a good fit.

But I wasn't the one who designed it in spite of me disagreeing very harshly with it being a good fit.

This game had, like, five, six players submit League-related subreddits?

Literally all of them had picture-perfect fits imo...

except

for Ashe which imo missed the mark big time ESPECIALLY considering how on the nose the others were.

[mastina]

Though if I may can we talk about Penguin's luck with all of the neighborhoods being town only.

I know, right???

I was quite miffed at that given that the neighborhoods made the game much much harder to deal with.

I lowkey was beginning to suspect that there was a hidden "can only neighborize town" mechanic to it or even if not, that the town would SPECULATE that was a mechanic (and fuck me over in the process)...

[mastina]

Does this mean we could have no killed?

Oh if so then I wouldn't have been confscum either.

That was a concern of mine; the whole game after Shiro attached to me, I knew that if we ever had four players going into night, it'd reveal me as scum a la my (lack of) luck in a previous game I had this happen to me.

Apparently I'd have been fine tho.

All that anxiety for nothing.

[mastina]

The best part of this is that Ivan literally said "this feels exactly like scum Mastina from 3 years ago"
So for you to have been playing an old style makes that funnier in hindsight

I mean.

Y'all didn't read it because nobody reads my meta history posts even though they will genuinely learn a lot from my play by so much as skimming, but:

and that you hitting all the notes on me you used to back in 2013-2014 is just a coincidence.

Uh you are aware that my meta changes over time, right?

I mean to some extent it's cyclical and even the flowchart is out of date, but like. A lot of the things in there still hold true.

I believe the flowchart notes for instance that my towngames have become a lot more logical?

I might've even included a note on how scumastina is far more of a lurksack these days and town-me is more active.

But like. My townplay these days is the scumplay of old; my scumplay these days is the worst of my towngame of old. (There was an era when town-me was incredibly inactive, prod dodging, producing no content, etc. I remember one mini modded by Jake from State Farm where I literally did nothing, and Antihero's og Chemistry game where I literally did nothing. So there was an era of town-me from about back then when I did literally nothing as town, but that's my scumgame these days.)

If you want a look at what scumastina has been as of late:
This was the first of the modern scumastina.
I then immediately/concurrently to that? Got this game which pretty much killed my will to play scum forever.

Now, I did get vaguely close to a good scumgame, but you can clearly tell that even that's not peak scumastina and obviously not town-me, and it was temporary; I regressed again to my obvscum self quickly.

Case and point, obvscum zero-motivation scumastina.

And it even got worse than that.

Down to this level.

This is genuinely my skill cap as scum, what scumastina is capable of these days.

In contrast,
This is what my town games as of late.
You can really see the huge difference in my play when I am given a town alignment. It really shows strongly in my play that I have received a town role PM in my towngames.

It's genuinely as simple as "if mastina is invested in the game, trying, and posting, with the posts as content rather than prodges and fluff/filler, she's town". There's nuances to it as well; scumastina can't get angry whereas town me can. And town mastina is passionate whereas scumastina's "passion" comes across as exactly what it is, faked stilted and artificial.

But this is never my scumgame.

When I said that everyone should know that this is my towngame.

I meant it.

Because the difference between my towngame and my scumgame is literally night and day. This

cannot

be my scumgame, because I'm literally not capable of doing this as scum. It's literally impossible.

Yes, it was within my skill circa 2013-2014. Peak scumastina era. Nothing was out of my scum range back then; I could genuinely do anything back then as scum and my scumgame was much better than my towngame.

But things change. I just lost my moxie/mojo/whatever you want to call it. Lost my spark. Lost my desire, lost my interest, whatever. For playing scum. So I just...can't play scum.

I should be conftown but I shouldn't

need

to be conftown in order to still be obvtown.

This was accurate. If you click on the links for towngames vs. scumgames it'll become obvious; none of my scumgames in the last few years have shown anything remotely like this.

Granted.

I've been trying for years to get back into form.

But I've for

three years

been

failing

to get back into peak scumastina form and this is genuinely the first time I've ever pulled it off since like...late 2018, early 2019?

So yes, it was me as scum, it just...wasn't a me as scum that I've shown in literally years; the only player recognizing it as "not scumastina from the last three years" was jjh.

And I was genuinely dead serious when I said that T3, SirCakez, and even LLD should've seen me as town here because all of them have seen my towngame in the last three years and my scumgame in the last three years and should have had the lowered expectations of scumastina and accurate reads on a town mastina.

I genuinely, until this game, thought I could never ever have a truly good scumgame ever again. I've never been passionate as scum in the last three years; I've never put as much time into planning as scum in the last three years; I've done nothing but the bare minimum in three years of scumastina.

Nothing is outside of peak-scumastina's scumrange, this game an example, but I've not been able to pull off peak scumastina in over three years.

Now granted. I realize this is still not the ceiling of scumplay and I realize it wasn't a picture-perfect replica of my towngame. I was scum, so I obviously wasn't going to be entirely town in my play. But, given my play

in the last three years

, this was something unprecedented from me, something scumastina hasn't been able to do, something that was something that for the last three years, only has been possible from me as town.

Was still quite miffed that I had to fight this hard for the win tho.

When you are genuinely in a situation where the town has every reason to believe you've been cleared as town (and the only reason you were able to pull that off is due to bullshit that you personally disagree with so the town should have no reason to piece that together thanks to it being bullshit), and then the town

doesn't

clear you?

It legit IS like the town calling a cop-cleared player a Godfather after a scum Godfather has flipped, just with the cop-cleared player happening to also be a godfather so the town doing something that they objectively

shouldn't

, happened to be the right call.

[mastina]

Generally both mods see upicks as a love letter to each players choices

This was why I was so miffed with my role.

Not only did it make my job hell as I was scum with a role

mod-provided

that didn't fit flavor-wise, but I knew those criticisms to be valid because *I* didn't think it fit flavor-wise.

I got the short end of the stick in terms of League uPick roles.

Yuumi fit perfectly; Poppy fit perfectly; Arcane was a good fit; etc. But Ashe as a messenger who has a puppetmaster (when puppetmastery is more of LeBlanc's flavor thing or if you have one in the Freljord is Lissandra's realm because Lissandra is literally manipulating things behind the scenes) doesn't really fit at all. And as someone who doesn't fakeclaim and truthfully claimed, I got stuck with a role I knew wasn't a good fit and knew that nobody else would think was a good fit even though I wasn't fucking lying about it, it just was a shit fit compared to the brilliant fits of the others.

[mastina]

like yes, LLD can have claws... but doing this ringamarole is a bit much just to placate somebody

I have the need to state once again that you don't know the full history between me and LLD.

I do.

When I said I genuinely was afraid LLD would /out due to me and that LLD had me blacklisted:

That wasn't me being scum exaggerating

.

That was true.

I came up with the plan to proxy-vote to LLD and make the promise from the moment I signed up for the game and saw LLD was in it. I was actually hoping to be town, specifically because I knew that if I got scum it would be seen as less sincere even though I fully meant it and it was designed regardless of my alignment.

[mastina]

I think that it was less to do with ashes abilities, and more to do with her lore?
It has been YEARS since I have looked at anything lol related, but she was a politician, and there was some political intrigue stuff maybe? Idk

Yes Cabd did mention that but that's what I mean; even there, Ashe is NOT the "manipulative" part of the Freljord; that is firmly Lissandra's lore.

Cabd gave me a role that'd be a perfect fit for

Lissandra

, which meant it was basically 0% a fit for Ashe as Ashe is basically everything Lissandra isn't.

Ashe is a clever politician yes, but she doesn't manipulate; she navigates things to find the most optimal solution to keep her people alive. There's no manipulation, just selection of the best option. Marrying Tryndamere was the best option she had available, but while it was initially politically-motivated, they developed real love and there was nothing underhanded or manipulative in the marriage. Ashe didn't need to manipulate or trick or deceive Tryndamere or her own people for it.

When Ashe even basically founded the Avarosans, taking the survivors from Sejuani's attack, there was no manipulation involved there. There was in fact basically the opposite of manipulation; there was openness and honesty and a commitment to honor and doing the right thing, showing empathy and committing to leading her new people. Ashe basically shuts down manipulation in the Freljord; she is not the one doing it.

[mastina]

Also if we assume ivan is not scum (or 3p i suppose), i'm very curious to see what scum has, since a lot of town seems p strong

imo in many was basically fuckall of anything since our tools couldn't actually counter the town's tools.

We had no way of stopping a Strong-willed Cop. If Rogue had chosen the 1x strongman over the poison, we'd only have a 1x bypass of the Strong-willed Doc. (And would otherwise be at the mercy of it.) We had no way of bypassing Ivan's parity cop.

My redirect was inherently tied to my message. I couldn't redirect without sending a message and that meant that it'd be very easy to figure out that the redirect was tied to the message.

Even then, our ability to bypass the watcher/jailkeeper was incredibly limited. The watcher is incredibly easy to get a guilty (because we had no ninja) and incredibly hard to kill (because of commuting on even nights). The jailkeeper we could only directly deal with twice and would've become a cop had it lived long enough.

We also had almost no way of bypassing LLD's role, especially if Piltover was selected over Zaun.

The scum also had no tools to bypass Shiro's role if Shiro had used it in almost any other way. If I was made disloyal first I wouldn't have been able to clear myself; if Shiro attached to town and the loyal/disloyal was used, we'd have no way of dealing with it especially if Shiro wouldn't actually die via the hide.

The town this game was ridiculously strong, and the scum, less so imo.

Now, granted: the town had one less elimination than normal; poison bypassed most of the protectives; redirect was able to bypass the jailkeeper used offensively. So I'm not sure that it was townsided given those factors. But I will say that I feel like the town didn't need to use their tools optimally to win, they just needed to have their tools used at all; the scum it felt like needed to use their tools incredibly optimally and then even after having used them optimally, have good luck. So I would favor most towns in this game regardless of the game's theoretical balance.

[mastina]

unless mastina has a reputation for bussing her partners (and flips scum).

Actually, I do.

Because I never am intended to be the deepscum and am always the weak link on my scumteams (I have never lived as scum in over three years and have always died prior to that), why wouldn't I bus? I'm guaranteed to die every scumgame I ever play, so when I die my flip will make my scumbuddies look a lot better.

...Which is why in this game when I specifically was feeling a revitalized scumgame I deliberately chose to invert that trend.

I knew that I was having a good scumgame. I knew that for whatever reason I wasn't sucking like scumastina did for the last three years. So I knew that I could do the opposite of what scumastina has done for three years straight and do the thing that scumastina

used

to be known and even infamous for; of hard-townlocking scumbuddies and hard-defending them. (I literally wrote an article called "Stop Bussing!"; that's because I know why bussing is so disastrous for scumteams. So scumastina in good form never busses; scumastina when in her three year funk basically did nothing BUT bus.)

[mastina]

unless mastina has a reputation for bussing her partners (and flips scum).

Fun facts that nobody picked up on;
I argued I couldn't be scum because I didn't know about the Shiro mechanics when scum would have via Suripoko being neighborized--
This was not an act on my part because Suripoko never told their scumbuddies about it meaning we were in the dark about it.

I argued that the mechanics people were using to say I wasn't conftown couldn't exist--because they didn't.

I argued that the way Loyal/Redirector should resolve would make me conftown--because that's the way they

should

have worked.
I didn't ask the mods about particular interactions because I assumed they worked in a specific universal way--even though the mods way was actually different. (So that wasn't an act.)

I argued things about my role and its mechanics truthfully--because the mods sent me the wrong PM.

A lot of the things I said made me town were due to things that really would indicate me as town if not for extenuating circumstances where they happened in spite of me being scum.

[mastina]

i can see the scum pt and i have no idea what they r doing

Why was it unclear to you and Cabd?

Shiro had been in a PT with Ivan and LLD.

YOU knew that Shiro was telling the truth about making my action disloyal.

*I* did not.

*I* had the, fairly reasonable, paranoia that Shiro wasn't as trustful of me as claimed because Shiro had voted me, stated suspicion on me, and was just in a topic with LLD and Ivan.

If Shiro made me Loyal a second night in a row, then I would need to do the exact thing I did on the previous night. So I did, as a precaution.

I also stand by what I said; my role was use it or lose it.

I had nobody to use my redirect on other than Rogue.
We were going into mylo.

So either we won (and thus no need for it), or Rogue died (and thus I had nobody to use it on), or I died (and thus would not be able to use it).

So even though I knew it'd be a waste if Shiro was truthfully claiming Disloyal (and it turned out Shiro was in fact truthfully claiming Disloyal), *I* had no way of knowing that so I used the action in that way as a precaution.

It wasn't stupidity; it was caution.

[mastina]

I spent forever dithering over whether to tell SM first, then Bombay (and by extension T3) that Shiro was a hider, only to find out the scum team knew from the getgo.

You'd

think

that we knew, but......

[mastina]

well if T3 is scum
he can't shoot Mastina
because he can't explain why she dies
as he's a claimed doctor
and has pontificated vigorously about why Mastina is town

Yes, if I had needed to actually argue T3 as scum, I'd have pointed out precisely this:

T3 (claiming to) protect me is the correct move regardless of his alignment.

If he lets two conftown die (because after the strongman flip the theory I was a strongman messenger was debunk), then he gets instavoted.
He couldn't realistically no-kill as scum there due to how it would give the town more.
Bombay was commuting that night so he couldn't kill Bombay.

Meaning that T3's only kill if T3 were scum was Ivan.

[mastina]

Welcome to Subreddit Mafia!

Ashe, in pencil!

You are r/AsheMains

Your Abilities are:

• Your voice and your vote
  
• You have a factional Private thread with Rogue and Suripoko here: (link)
  
• You are a Hawkshot (E) messenger. You can send a letter to a player each night. The letter has a 100 character limit. Three successfully delivered letters grants you a public crier role, also with 100 characters limit.
  
• If you successfully deliver a letter to a player, on the same night you can become their puppet master and redirect that player's night action (if they have a targeting action) to the player of your choice. You can use this puppet master ability two times.
  
• Your public crier ability, if accomplished, will have 3 shots in total.
  

Your Win Condition is:
You win when

Mafia

acheive numerical parity with

Town

, or nothing can prevent that from occurring.

The game thread is here.

Please confirm by replying to this PM with your alignment, and with the bolded line from the rules in the game thread.

Btw this is the role PM I actually got.

[mastina]

It does come down to the fact that every town player at ElLo should be considering why scum was willing to bring them there
Especially at 3-4p

I mean.

Shiro couldn't be killed due to being hid behind.
Bombay couldn't be killed due to commuting.

So the only kills available were {Ivan, T3, mastina}.
Whoever was scum in there (me in this case) couldn't die, leaving very limited options.

And before that?

StrangeMatter was mandatory because Jailkeeper with one scum left alive is a cop (especially if posting their target in a PT).
LLD was mandatory because of what I had intended to do. (I actually intended to kill her and claim that my loyal worked even knowing it wouldn't have worked. Or so I thought, except, apparently, it did.) It was also a good kill off of LLD being both conftown and LLD having a strong role. That not even touching into her reads and general competency.
skitter wasn't mandatory but it was a N1 kill; we had no information N1 so we were shooting blind that night and skitter was right on 2/3 scum so...

There wasn't any reason for Bombay or Shiro to question why they were alive; it was obvious that they were alive because scum

couldn't

kill them.

So from there, the only question would be who would have what reason to kill who among the three possible kills with one of the possible kills being scum.

[mastina]

ngl I found the redirect for ashe even more unfitting
Even worse that I was correct when I said there is no way ashe is just a messenger.

I mean if I had truthfully

full

claimed and included the redirect aspect, then you'd have thought it was unfitting AND me claiming a scum role, instead of unfitting and underwhelming.

So it was a damned if I do, damned if I don't, moment.

I'm really sorry that you are disappointed, nay angry, about our interpretation of your chosen uPick.

Oh I'm not angry, I'm just passionate.

I am an active member of the subreddit I submitted; I am an Ashe onetrick; I love everything about her both lorewise and gameplay wise (and the fact that she's a female archer also helps as that's precisely the kind of character I like to play), so I'm not angry about anything, just very passionate.

It was annoying that I was telling the truth about my role and was disbelieved by other League Champion subreddits because theirs were closer fitted to their champion than mine was, since I genuinely feel like their roles hit the nail on the head with their picks and mine was an eyesquint stretch where you could

kind of

see the logic behind it but it didn't make as much logical sense.

But while I probably would've ranted if that had led to my elimination, ultimately, it didn't, so while I do admit to some disappointment to having a role that I felt wasn't a good fit for Ashe, I'm not angry.

In all the games I've played with you, spectated and modded, I have never been impressed with your play to the extent I was impressed with your Night 2 choices here.

And when I realized that you weren't even trying to take advantage of an aspect of your role where we'd bungled the wordage in the conversion from town to scum, and yet took advantage of it perfectly. my jaw dropped.

I mean, had I had my proper role PM I'd have done the same thing I submitted anyway because I'd have known it to be the correct play for that night. (It was obviously the correct countermove imo. Doesn't take a scum genius to put together the puzzle pieces when the town hands them to you.)

But, yeah, not having had the proper role PM, it was truly just me taking a "well I've got nothing to lose by trying this" moment where I figured that it might increase the odds of our kill going through. Because I had nothing to lose, and it seemed like it might have the

potential

to help.

[mastina]

Btw now that both games are finished--
Can I just say: being scum in two different games at the same time is

incredibly

rough.

The playerlist overlap made it borderline impossible for me to figure out the optimal play in both games.

Do I play the same way in both games at the same time and risk going down in both the moment I go down in one?

Or do I play in exact opposite ways, but make the players suspect that I am scum in at least one of the games, in the hope that my scumflip in one will clear me in the other? (This is what I opted for btw.)

It's incredibly damn hard.

Notably, this is one of the reasons I was so sure SirCakez should've been townreading me here. He KNEW that I was scum in that game, and my play in this game was nothing like my play in CONTROL. After LLD died there, I thought for sure she would know my alignment there (turns out she didn't, but I didn't know that until this game had finished), which is why I thought she should

know

that I was scum in that game and my play in that game was nothing like my play in this game.

(Hilariously enough, I ended up killing LLD N2 in both games. So apparently, I'm not scum if LLD dies N1 or lives to D3, but I AM scum if LLD dies N2... )