Open 842: Diffusion of Power [Postgame]

[morph the cat]

that's foreboding

Eh, more like it's not mafia related in the slightest and very uh, personal, but if you need to know then I'm fine opening up.

i'll let it rest for now. i don't think you would make up something like that, but at the same time i still get to be suspicious of you because you can have life issues and a red role pm

Oh of course that is true. Just like in bloodstained with you.

We didn't, but that's for me and spay to know, Amazonians to get of their asses to tell the world about, and for you to begrudgingly admit at one point or another.

[Tejate Raichu]

I can't stop that just by defending against scum!me arguments from you and Shirou.

I take it you've not done much research on Morph outside of the game you played with spay, then.

If anything, we're IMFAMOUS for actively dismantling wagons if we become convinced a player is town, damn the torpedos. See most recently the T3-->Dann slot event in Cephrir's large theme he hosted a while back.

Correct, I have not done much individual player research for reasons I have probably stated earlier in the thread.

I admit that my play has not been the best this game. It's pretty clear that I've caused a situation where I am forced on the defensive, and will likely not be trusted until a cop checks me or I am released from this mortal coil. I do not feel like there is much constructive I can say in response to this particular post. And frankly, even if I did, I'm not really sure that it's going to do me much good to keep being defensive. It's pretty obvious which way the wind is blowing, I have 3 voters on me and several people who are likely to have me as their first or second pick for a wagon. I can't stop that just by defending against scum!me arguments from you and Shirou.

I'm not printing out roadmaps to getting townread by me, but defending against arguments you're scum ain't it.

The post you're responding to, I'm not even calling you scum. I'm saying that the differences in your play are giving me a bad case of hives, even though I objectively feel it's wrong for me to build an entire model's worth of expectations on one game played with you.

Well, regardless, I think I want to take a different approach today. I'm going to try to not worry too much about where the actual wagon is, or hell, even discussion surrounding me. I'm still thinking on it, but I'd like to place my vote somewhere before the end of today. I don't feel like I really have any other options left other than to go on the offensive.

[Amazonian Legends]

This weekend got completely away from me. I’ve skimmed the posts from today, but I don’t really have much to comment on right this second. I’m gonna start my reread tonight until I fall asleep so I have a better context. I feel like I’ve had a bit of brain fog since coming back from vacation, so hopefully the reread will help with focus.

I’m a bit surprised that scum didn’t try to muddy the waters and claim a different protect or even the same. I really expected there to be a second doc claim so that we couldn’t mostly clear fua. (I think fuas clear, the mostly is just barring no kill shenanigans but I’m not sure anyone here plays that type of game.)

Anyway next couple days are somewhat busy for me. Gonna try to get rereading in but I probably won’t be posting that much. I’ll skim though so I’ll respond if you direct something to me.

[Tejate Raichu]

It's getting late, so I probably actually won't vote tonight. I'd rather not have a repeat of yesterday's vote. I do have something I am preparing though: a small handful of people I want to focus on and try and case tomorrow, I'll start on a draft tonight.

[numberQ]

brain says shitou then but gut says shirou scum
VOTE: Shirou

Feels agenda-y and less interested in actually solving

Reading this was a shock because I found myself nodding along to Shirou's posting here.

A mechanical thought: I think no-limming today may actually be the best move, but not sure. The advantage to continuing to lim every day is that a doc save earns us an extra mislim; I believe this is literally the only mechanical advantage. No-limming in this setup is actually pretty nice, because it basically "improves" every remaining cop by one night. If there are any n2 cops, we'll be able to use their info for the next elimination rather than the following one, etc etc. We lower the risk of eliminating any cops before they're able to use their shots, and if there

is

a doc save tonight then we can just do it again.

The other downside is there's a good chance we'd lose probably ceph (assuming that we leash Ydrasse to fua). But scum couldn't just safely kill him either, because we could easily have another n2 doctor.

I don't think we should no lim. Your point about using potential cop flips for later days is kind of shaky. What if there's NO cop tonight? Then we're just risking a doc protect failing, missing out on an informative flip, and giving up a chance to lim scum.

What about this post in particular gives you that impression? I don't really feel like it's that dissimilar from this.

I literally explain what I think town!you would do in this situation rather than posting that...like, this question also feels unnecessary Tejate. As if you're asking just to ask, post just to post. I felt some...fire and greater purpose from your posts on the newbie game and I don't here.

Also that vote Meg...kinda

hilarious

to hear you saying I'm not interested in solving. Have you ever looked at your own ISO...?

I don't recall myself trying to force a 50/50 between two players that I haven't interacted with.

Solving doesn't actually require much vocalization but pushing an agenda does. Activity isn't AI.

Would love to hear more of what you think of ceph/ ydrasse at this point

What's the 50/50 that Shirou forced? I have a headache so it's possible that's making me not remember something.

[numberQ]

There's more I wanted to comment on but headache

[Shirou]

I really expected there to be a second doc claim so that we couldn’t mostly clear fua.

I also expected it. Not really that surprised there was no doc claim though, maybe scum aren't ballsy here.

or...maybe they are super ballsy and...welp, let's no go there for no reason I guess, very low probability especially if you are town as I think you're.

[Shirou]

What about this post in particular gives you that impression? I don't really feel like it's that dissimilar from this.

I literally explain what I think town!you would do in this situation rather than posting that...like, this question also feels unnecessary Tejate. As if you're asking just to ask, post just to post. I felt some...fire and greater purpose from your posts on the newbie game and I don't here.

Also that vote Meg...kinda

hilarious

to hear you saying I'm not interested in solving. Have you ever looked at your own ISO...?

I don't recall myself trying to force a 50/50 between two players that I haven't interacted with

.

Players that I didn't INTERACT WITH?

If you're ever town this just kinda pisses me off. If you're scum as I suspect fine we can chalk up to just you attempting to create a narrative but either way this is straight up fabrication.

I literally engaged a lot with Tejate, asking him questions and explaining my issues with him to see what he would say. It took me quite awhile to have a conclusion on him, people even complained/suspected me for it, I'm in fact probably the person that

most

interacted with Tejate.

have you like...READ THE GAME? It's beginning to feel clear to me that you probably didn't other than a huge fat skim where you didn't even notice a lot of what was talked about (and that is different from just a "skim" as you said before).

In fact, this would make a lot of sense of your slot's behavior. You didn't pay attention at all to what happened in the game because you were disinterested in solving alignments from the start, so it's not that you won't talk about slots. Perhaps it's the case that you

CAN'T

talk (because you don't know much about D1)?

Saying I didn't interact with Tejate is just very, very disingenuous to anyone that has properly read D1.

and about interacting with you, I did try to get you to talk more about redtea/imaginality and...about anything else you felt like back on D1. You brushed me off. Now you want to say I didn't try to interact with you?

Yeah, maybe you're a really good elimination as I suspected.

[Shirou]

in truth I'm not as angry as the post above suggests but I thought it was a good idea to write it like that for...IMPACT!



can we yet Meg today or tomorrow?

please and thank you

[Shirou]

I did initially think about replying to each line of his post like that (with a semi-wall) because I've an issue with literally all of the lines but I probably shouldn't bother with that much effort

but to reply in a summarized way the rest:

Solving doesn't actually require much vocalization but pushing an agenda does. Activity isn't AI.

No, it does require vocalization if you're town if you're doing it properly.

If you're town more likely than not your main job is to be town read rather than "catching the scumz". If you're a townie that is able to make others town read you, you've made the life of everyone with a green role much easier by not being a good vote, so it's more likely the votes are going for scum.

More often than not, scum isn't universally town read. They may be a consensus town lean or weak TR, but that's circumstantial to the fact that there's scummier people. If townies were better in showing how and why they are townies, scum would have no or few miseliminations left and even the most skilled scum players would find themselves in a hard spot.

It's fine to hold back things for some time to sort it out, but you're supposed to talk about the game as town, otherwise it's impossible for other townies to properly read your slot.

Thinking that as a townie you just need to "catch the scumz" while not making an effort to be readable is honestly both selfish and arrogant.

Mathematically speaking if you're town, you're probably just not that good of a scum hunter where your only priority should be thinking by yourself who is scum or not. I'm in the same boat.

Would love to hear more of what you think of ceph/ ydrasse at this point

Ceph has an inno by NumberQ and I believe NumberQ's cop claim. I already talked about this. Again, are you reading the game?

Ydrasse is...kinda not here after getting sick? I was kinda liking her slot before but now I'm kinda waiting her to properly recover and get on the game. Not a terrible cop target at the moment but at the same time not feeling like voting there for now.

Actually, I really don't get your obsession with Ydra slot when you just brushed off the other low activity posters like redtea, that have MUCH LESS content than Ydra.

If Ydra is ever scum I actually think you may be a potential buddy in fact. I don't see any good logical explanation for your issue with Ydra for "coasting" (when she was sick no less!) when there was MULTIPLE slots doing that?

[Shirou]

okay maybe it wasn't very summarized but I couldn't stop typing

I don't know how to type less but still explain all my points...

sigh

[Shirou]

I just wasted 40 minutes to reply a post with three lines

I would like therefore to hereby claim I'm ignoring Meg's posts going forward if I feel like they are just bullshit like this last one

I'll just call they bullshit and move on

[morph the cat]

i dont want to discourage anyone from DOing Stuff but it's interesting to observe who responds to this seemingly town-loaded gamestate by springing into action and who is chilling

Can you talk more about this? Why seemingly? It sounds like you feel that scum would be motivated to do more in this state than town would?

[morph the cat]

redtea is still distinctly underwhelming.

[morph the cat]

I kinda wish the cop result had been on someone I personally had/have more concerns about, but numberQ deciding to target ceph was well telegraphed and makes a lot of sense given his day 1 perspectives.

[GuiltyLion]

hey y'all, haven't read up, got sucked into the insanity that was the NFL this past weekend and now am doing work, but I will have time to play this afternoon a couple hours from now. this is basically a quick prod dodge but to make sure it's not a totally content-less post for now I'll say I did see implosion saying his point was to try to evaluate me from a biased view because he's afraid of my scum game after White Flag, and while I can understand that

idea

I don't know if I'm sold that it really takes away the issues I had with what he posted because it basically excuses him from having to account for/address town explanations for my play. I'm sympathetic to the general notion of "GL got me last time as scum so I can't trust that he's town here", and I do think it's understandable from a neutral perspective to be suspicious of how I wound up on the imaginality miselimination, but idk, I don't like having to discern his intentions in posting an "intentionally biased" case because that's basically exactly what scum need to do all the time.

I'll also admit that part of why I wanted to throw down with him in response was to see which sides people take, and I figure probably people have since commented on that, so I'll read up on the subsequent pages when I actually have time to sit and play

[Cephrir]

i dont want to discourage anyone from DOing Stuff but it's interesting to observe who responds to this seemingly town-loaded gamestate by springing into action and who is chilling

Can you talk more about this? Why seemingly? It sounds like you feel that scum would be motivated to do more in this state than town would?

i think it's a possibility anyway that scum would feel a bit of fire under their butts today because the pool appears to have narrowed significantly

[implosion]

eh implo

even if we miselim someone that would be cop checked at night, it just means there's one less target for the cops though? I also do kinda think we can likely get an extra save until the end of this game perhaps, which would give us an extra elimination yeah.

The unique scenario I see a no-lim strategy being better than just limming everyday is if...welp, don't want to give scum ideas actually kkkk, but yeah it's only in a specific scenario so I'm kinda against this.

This is the...weirdest post from you for me to be honest...didn't expect you to think no limming may be a good idea given the counterpoints I said above (maybe I'm missing something though? dunno).

If we miselim someone who

is

a cop then that's one less cop check on an ambiguous slot. Part of the idea of this is that like, n4/n5 cops are pretty close to worthless on average because they'll usually be dead by the time their night rolls around. And n2/n3 cops will usually be useful but this makes it strictly more likely that they'll be alive for their nights. And yeah it's not

un

likely that we get an extra save but it's hard to quantify. This idea is basically trading that potential big gain for a guaranteed smaller but still significant one.

[implosion]

I'm not like, wed to the idea, to be clear.

I did see implosion saying his point was to try to evaluate me from a biased view because he's afraid of my scum game after White Flag, and while I can understand that idea I don't know if I'm sold that it really takes away the issues I had with what he posted because it basically excuses him from having to account for/address town explanations for my play.

It's not hard to find the town explanations... hence me hard townreading you when you were town and then hard townreading you when you were scum >.>

[implosion]

What about this post in particular gives you that impression? I don't really feel like it's that dissimilar from this.

I literally explain what I think town!you would do in this situation rather than posting that...like, this question also feels unnecessary Tejate. As if you're asking just to ask, post just to post. I felt some...fire and greater purpose from your posts on the newbie game and I don't here.

Also that vote Meg...kinda

hilarious

to hear you saying I'm not interested in solving. Have you ever looked at your own ISO...?

I don't recall myself trying to force a 50/50 between two players that I haven't interacted with.

Solving doesn't actually require much vocalization but pushing an agenda does. Activity isn't AI.

Would love to hear more of what you think of ceph/ ydrasse at this point

I also agree with Shirou that this post is... a bit of a mess. Why is ceph on the top of your mind? Did you actually just not read the game and miss the nQ inno?

"Activity isn't AI" is extremely black-and-white both in itself (I strongly suspect I used to, and maybe still do, have a clear correlation between post count/certain activity patterns and alignment) and in how it's painting Shirou's point. His point isn't just that you don't have much activity, it's that the activity you do have is incredibly opaque and does not look like solving. It just looks like saying a collection of opinions. Whether those opinions were found through reading the thread or by plucking them off of a vine, who's to say... but it sure doesn't look like it's from reading the thread if you're asking about Ceph as a primary person of interest.

[numberQ]

I'm not like, wed to the idea, to be clear.

I did see implosion saying his point was to try to evaluate me from a biased view because he's afraid of my scum game after White Flag, and while I can understand that idea I don't know if I'm sold that it really takes away the issues I had with what he posted because it basically excuses him from having to account for/address town explanations for my play.

It's not hard to find the town explanations... hence me hard townreading you when you were town and then hard townreading you when you were scum >.>

Starting to feel like I was wrong on GL at day start, and from that perspective implosion's case on him is very opportunistic. I know he voiced concerns over GL before I did, but it wasn't until I also did so independently that he started going in harder. Except not that hard? Because he keeps caveating it like in the quoted post. So throw in a dose of hedginess to the opportunism and I'm gonna jump over here.

VOTE: implosion

[implosion]

nQ, that post isn't a caveat. It's an explanation that it's easy for me to townread GL in practice because I did it in the other two games I played with him recently, hence, I can't just townread him in this game for things that I "typically" would. I have been hedgy on it but I've also clearly listed him as a top scumread atm; it's just that I don't feel like my reads are the most solid in the world.

I've also explicitly said this game that I think opportunism is a good thing, generally. Why wouldn't I want to take an opportunity to pressure someone?

[implosion]

When I say "It's not hard to find the town explanations", I'm referring to the last two games I played with GL where I easily found town explanations for his play as both alignments. I'm certain I could do the same here easily, hence me saying that I also was easily able to do so when he was scum because it isn't really alignment-indicative for him for me to be able to come up with reasons to townread him.

[morph the cat]

i dont want to discourage anyone from DOing Stuff but it's interesting to observe who responds to this seemingly town-loaded gamestate by springing into action and who is chilling

Can you talk more about this? Why seemingly? It sounds like you feel that scum would be motivated to do more in this state than town would?

i think it's a possibility anyway that scum would feel a bit of fire under their butts today because the pool appears to have narrowed significantly

For me, it's not narrowed much at all, except possibly in the case of ydrasse. I had a hard townread on fua yesterday. numberQ was in the upper end of the mushy middle.

[numberQ]

nQ, that post isn't a caveat. It's an explanation that it's easy for me to townread GL in practice because I did it in the other two games I played with him recently, hence, I can't just townread him in this game for things that I "typically" would. I have been hedgy on it but I've also clearly listed him as a top scumread atm; it's just that I don't feel like my reads are the most solid in the world.

I've also explicitly said this game that I think opportunism is a good thing, generally. Why wouldn't I want to take an opportunity to pressure someone?

Oh, maybe I did misunderstand. When you said "hard townreading you [GL] when you were scum" I guess you were referring to that other game?