CONTROL - GAME OVER!

[MUSHSHAGANA]

I am of the opinion that Andante's stance on Malakittens was scummy. And also that their weird sort of mafia claim yesterday was never really explained, just followed up with AtE/Widom

literally do not get how any1 townreads andante im sry

[Save The Dragons]

Hi

[Dunnstral]

it's actually really easy to see andante's progression on malakittens

she voted then said she was mafia

Hi

[Save The Dragons]

Aw you remembered what I said

[Malakittens]

I am of the opinion that Andante's stance on Malakittens was scummy. And also that their weird sort of mafia claim yesterday was never really explained, just followed up with AtE/Widom

literally do not get how any1 townreads andante im sry

i'll prob be down to yeet them before we get down to a few players left bc of lim bait

but i want to actually yeeeeeeeeeeeet confirmed scum from interactions with confirmed scum flips

[Roden]

Spoiler:

VOTE: Ircher

VOTE: Ircher

This should be E-3. I'll deal with Val later.

Sorry, was dealing with wedding stuff yesterday, I just finished catching up on the game.

Ircher is caught scum for multiple reasons, I don't believe he's FN and I'm pretty sure he wasn't RB'd. Somebody mentioned earlier that Ircher's reads list looked townie, but also noted that he essentially had written it ahead of time, which leads me to believe it was just fabricated as a last ditch effort to save himself. He also

still

isn't scum hunting, unless you count this:

I think Bell scum claimed in the last few pages.

Which is uh, not great.

if your action was roleblocked can you use it tonight? for non consec? im assuming not but worth a check

Nope.

This also feels off. The confident conclusiveness of this answer doesn't add up if the claim is real. The reply is instant, and the only way he could know for sure is if he asked the mod ahead of time, but he doesn't mention that. Very much just feels like a "just trust me bro" response.

Also Val needs to die tonight or tomorrow. He tried to instigate an argument but never responded when I brought the receipts. And then today he's like "oh no where's Roden" as if there isn't an unfinished case against him that he's been ignoring.

Consider my vote spiritually on Ircher, I don't want to put him at E-1 in case he hammers himself to cut off discussion and info exchange. I'm fine to do it when we're ready though.

In other news, Roden just dropped several percentage points with how he's spinning things here.

Except he’s referring to me who said it first and you didn’t bat an eye

That's not true. I just didn't comment; not everything is worth it at the time. Also, the specifics matter here. You called me out for my initial reaction. Roden is calling me out for providing the standard answer to a question that has a standard answer on this site. That's very different; the former is a good faith engagement even if I disagree. The latter is just incredibly bad faith. You both agree the claim is fake; that's fine, sure; however, the way you reach that conclusion matters, and the way Roden is reaching that conclusion is really iffy compared to yours.

In other news, Roden just dropped several percentage points with how he's spinning things here.

Except he’s referring to me who said it first and you didn’t bat an eye

I was hoping someone would notice this first. Ircher has been ignoring most people who try to case him, only ever replying to people he thinks are easy to out-argue.

Anyway the real reason Ircher is scum here is because there is a 100% chance we have a Voyeur and/or a Watcher and there's no way they don't sit on Ircher N1 to catch a Roleblocker. But no one's stepping forward to vouch for Ircher besides I guess Andante, who just claimed VT.

Hot take:

let's actually kill scum today. The CORRECT play today is to KILL roden.

Here's why:

Here's roden's first "scum" ircher when there was multiple people already looking that way, but no case, no reasons why.
Then there's the naked vote. That naked vote is placed in spot 6/11. There's no "real" reason, just a naked vote.
Now Roden switches to Val.
1560 again naked jumps onto the wagon for no real reason for E-3
No where around for the last minute switcharoooo.

Now open up to D2:

All of a sudden is convinced that Ircher is lying. Full on bussing. knowing the partner is going down. The other part of the line "someone mentioned that the posts looked fabricated".
The last two posts are distancing between ircer & roden.

Up until the naked vote there was BARELY any mention re:ircher until the naked 6/11 vote & the E-3 vote then the start of D2.

So please for the sake of catching an actual scum. please vote roden

thank you kindly

for my sanity

Why are both you and STD ignoring the fact that Ircher and I went at each other D1 and D2? And that I pretty heavily softed how I knew that Ircher hadn't been Roleblocked?

If we cut the day short again because y'all want to flash elim yet another townie then town kinda deserves to lose. The day literally just started. NGL my overall opinion on STD is going to heavily change if I'm right and he is town because his pointless stubbornness is making him throw this game and just feels like bullying at this point. His absolute refusal to read me with any nuance in every single game just feels targeted at this point.

Anyway I'm Polaris. This is an important enough entity that it could be CC'd if I'm lying, so go nuts trying to figure out it's a real claim or not I guess. I'm not posting anymore tonight because this game keeps managing to kill my mood every time I try to effort. But if I'm still alive in the morning I'll give some reads.

[Dunnstral]

Why are both you and STD ignoring the fact that Ircher and I went at each other D1 and D2?

And that I pretty heavily softed how I knew that Ircher hadn't been Roleblocked?

What are you claiming here?

[Roden]

Oh I will say that I didn't vote Grendel because I thought that wagon was bad and only scum benefit from voting am empty slot. Like the whole angle shooty theory that the slot was scum because they replaced out twice is bad meta, the game was obviously just too overwhelming to keep up with.

[Roden]

Why are both you and STD ignoring the fact that Ircher and I went at each other D1 and D2?

And that I pretty heavily softed how I knew that Ircher hadn't been Roleblocked?

What are you claiming here?

If you actually read my posts, you'd be able to figure that out. Why are you still blindly sheeping wagons after we already had two mis-elims?

Why are both you and STD ignoring the fact that Ircher and I went at each other D1 and D2?

And that I pretty heavily softed how I knew that Ircher hadn't been Roleblocked?

What are you claiming here?

I'm interested in voting Roden.

I remember not liking them early, and then mostly forgetting about what they've done later.

Yeah it shows.

[Dunnstral]

I'm not voting you, actually. And I'm not blindly sheeping regardless.

[Dunnstral]

Did you target Tet last night?

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: Andante

Moving my vote where my mouth is, will continue to consider Roden claim.

[Malakittens]

You mean ircher basically had your name in majority of his posts an ISO + ctrl + f will deliver a result of "42" times between his posts/others & posts that were made by you.

However when you are ISO. Granted when you do find yours it comes out to be 77, but here are any direct posts with ircher

Spoiler:

Oof 20 pages in a day.

Bears, LLD, Cephrir, Mastina, Norwe, Tet are all most likely town.

Greeting, Galron, STD, Ircher, Mush contains at least a few scum. My vote stopped being RVS btw.

Bears, LLD, Cephrir, Mastina, Norwe, Tet are all most likely town.

Greeting, Galron, STD, Ircher, Mush contains at least a few scum. My vote stopped being RVS btw.

this read list sucks it leaves a lot to be desired

the phrase "contains a few scum" feels fake

your vote for greeting is weird it comes with no explanation but you stopped being RVS (tbf you explain it later, but i hate it too so...)

you stick Ircher on there but don't want to vote him because you want to look like you're in agreement with the consensus but are waiting until later to actually be like "i guess we'll go ircher" it's making me think ircher might be town and you're scum

Roden, why do you think Greeting is the best vote for today?

I hate the RVS analysis posts. They made my eyes glaze over and it just read as information-over-analysis to me. It's typically a town tell to me, but there's a thin line between actually town telling and just LAMIST serious analysis posts.

this feels fake as hell i don't know how to describe it you're like a scummy cat waving your paw around

Additionally, I don't think Greeting and LLD are aligned, and since I town read LLD I have to give Greeting the boot.

this is weird as heck, why do you think greeting is unaligned with LLD

Yeah I know my reads list sucks, once we cut the player list in half and we're more than 48 hours into the game it'll probably look better.

"Contains a few scum" isn't a fake statement. My reads aren't strong but I feel like my read rate early in the game is usually 50/50, so I feel that some of my scum reads are probably correct.

STD what kind of low level scum do you think I am that I would telegraph an Ircher miselim like that? If I was scum and he was town I'd just vote him, it really wouldn't be hard to blend in with a wagon that would have twelve people on it.

Idk why you think my explanation of the Greeting vote is fake. I think your reaction is fake if anything lol.

I don't think LLD and Greeting are aligned because I town read one and scum read the other.

greeting just seems so townie it looks like you're scum who can't see that and are doubling down on a bad read

If I'm scum the read wouldn't be bad lol, it would just be wrong. Weird that you'd apply town logic to me if you're scum reading me.

my only hesitation is that i always scumread you

To be fair I think I've been scum almost every time we've played together.

VOTE: Ircher

@STD and Ceph:

What do you think about Ircher vs Meg?

I can't really help you with your death tunnel at this point then.

I didn't think your initial posts and arguments were too scummy. As I mentioned before, I've seen plenty of stubborn town players that stick to their guns even when they are wrong. However, the continued focus on defending and arguing back in place of forming reads (that are not based entirely in OMGUS) strikes me as a tactic scum adopts. Not only is it distracting to the rest of the thread, it makes you look busy while in reality, you are just treading the same old ground again and again.

This doesn't make any sense. Am I not supposed to defend myself when I'm being accused? And at what point am I "treading the same ground again and again" when I'm not even the one bringing up those posts? You're acting like I'm going around picking fights, yet Ceph took a pot shot at me over a read Mastina made earlier and reignited our shit fight, and Val is scum reading me over a post I made almost a week ago while apparently have zero opinions on anything else that's happened even though he claimed to read the entire thread.

Also claiming OMGUS is lazy and not even factual because I town read two out of the three loudest voices who claim I'm scum. I've already gone through why Ceph and STD's cases on me are meh, but I think tonally they're both town and that their reactions to some of my posts feel genuine. My Mush scum read is the only one you could call OMGUS but even that's a stretch because Mush just keeps spamming "you're scum lol" and ignores me when I tell it to explain it's read. "LOL you're just scum lol" isn't a case and I'm not the only one it's doing that to either.

VOTE: Ircher

This should be E-3. I'll deal with Val later.

*Rodan*
if you havent yet, what are your explanations behind your top 3 SRs

Talk to me about that

Ircher-

I haven't liked any of his posts. For the most part my eyes just glaze over when trying to read them, long wall posts segmented by quotes from multiple people just comes off as muddling to me. The shade towards me for defending myself reads as a soft defense for himself for not engaging with people who are scum casing him. A lot of his posts also aren't particularly interesting and feel bland/safe, the only exceptions being the multiple times he tries to shut down town cases.

All I want is for you to explain the thinking there.

This has been asked so many times before, and Roden made it clear he wasn't going to give a straight answer to this. There was no need to ask for the sixteenth time.

I've already explained that it isn't. I'm not going to explain yet again to you or anyone else.

Where? I looked at your ISO, and it seems to me that it's only Roden's Greeting and LLD read that caught your attention. Sure, that doesn't imply that it's the only thing that caught your attention, but it also doesn't imply that something else also grabbed your attention with regards to Roden. (In 1215, you give a detailed explanation of why you are interested in Roden answering it, but you don't actually mention or hint at there being other reasons you are interested in Roden.)

Yeah Val is scum. Seeing what Mama and Baby bears think.

-- The Pinkinator.

I think your portrayal of the ISO is pretty accurate, but once again like with Roden before, I have trouble jumping straight to the conclusion. That is, the stubbornness could come (and in all honestly, is more likely to come) from stubborn town rather than caught scum that doesn't want to back out. What is scum Val gaining with this approach other than Roden's ire?

This in particular is a really strange post. It's like he's just chastising Val, he never pushes further and instead defends him from the Bears. I'm honestly not even sure what his scum reads are, if anything he's just been consistently contrarian to everyone this game.

Val-

I feel like the problems I have with Val were posted about recently enough that I don't need to recap most of it. However I will add that his recent attempt to discredit the town reads on LLD weirdly coincides with Ircher's attempt to do the same. It makes me feel like scum are frustrated that people are angle-shooting LLD and the Bears as town due to mod interference.

322 is the smoking gun to me, because Val wants to push the idea that an actual ability could've been activated here, but if he was actually concerned I think he would ask the mod if it was real or just a joke. As it is right now, it just looks like an attempt to make people paranoid.

Arcade Pals-

I scum read this slot for different reasons than everyone else. It's a gut read based on Dunn's play, he just doesn't have the town energy I saw from him last time we played. He's felt very half-hearted with everything he does this game, to the point that I can't recall any of his opinions or stances. In comparison to our previous game, where he was so townie that the Doc only had five pages of posts to work with yet still knew to protect Dunn from the NK and succeeded... it feels like night and day here.

Oh nice, Catboi's in and already towning it up.

@Nora:

I think we should still elim Ircher since he still has a pretty high chance of flipping red, even now he still won't address the reads on him and he isn't scum hunting. If he flips town, I think it's still a good info flip and we won't have people tunneled on a slot that isn't doing all that much.

Also heavily disagree about sending investigative roles to check Ircher. I do agree with the reasoning but we definitely shouldn't call out who the investigative roles target, if scum have a Watcher then they'll easily find town PRs.

@Val:

I'll reply to you on Day 2 (or today if Ircher claims a PR and people get cold feet), since I don't want to distract from the wagon and I don't expect to die tonight.

Sorry, was dealing with wedding stuff yesterday, I just finished catching up on the game.

Ircher is caught scum for multiple reasons, I don't believe he's FN and I'm pretty sure he wasn't RB'd. Somebody mentioned earlier that Ircher's reads list looked townie, but also noted that he essentially had written it ahead of time, which leads me to believe it was just fabricated as a last ditch effort to save himself. He also

still

isn't scum hunting, unless you count this:

I think Bell scum claimed in the last few pages.

Which is uh, not great.

if your action was roleblocked can you use it tonight? for non consec? im assuming not but worth a check

Nope.

This also feels off. The confident conclusiveness of this answer doesn't add up if the claim is real. The reply is instant, and the only way he could know for sure is if he asked the mod ahead of time, but he doesn't mention that. Very much just feels like a "just trust me bro" response.

Also Val needs to die tonight or tomorrow. He tried to instigate an argument but never responded when I brought the receipts. And then today he's like "oh no where's Roden" as if there isn't an unfinished case against him that he's been ignoring.

Consider my vote spiritually on Ircher, I don't want to put him at E-1 in case he hammers himself to cut off discussion and info exchange. I'm fine to do it when we're ready though.

In other news, Roden just dropped several percentage points with how he's spinning things here.

Except he’s referring to me who said it first and you didn’t bat an eye

That's not true. I just didn't comment; not everything is worth it at the time. Also, the specifics matter here. You called me out for my initial reaction. Roden is calling me out for providing the standard answer to a question that has a standard answer on this site. That's very different; the former is a good faith engagement even if I disagree. The latter is just incredibly bad faith. You both agree the claim is fake; that's fine, sure; however, the way you reach that conclusion matters, and the way Roden is reaching that conclusion is really iffy compared to yours.

In other news, Roden just dropped several percentage points with how he's spinning things here.

Except he’s referring to me who said it first and you didn’t bat an eye

I was hoping someone would notice this first. Ircher has been ignoring most people who try to case him, only ever replying to people he thinks are easy to out-argue.

Anyway the real reason Ircher is scum here is because there is a 100% chance we have a Voyeur and/or a Watcher and there's no way they don't sit on Ircher N1 to catch a Roleblocker. But no one's stepping forward to vouch for Ircher besides I guess Andante, who just claimed VT.

Why would I as town engage in an argument that I'm likely to lose? That's just silly. As both alignments, I am best off choosing my battles wisely.

Why would you argue with someone who has minimal power and voice in the game state over someone who might actually be able to convince people to see things your way?

If you're scum I could see you arguing with me to try to build associatives after your flip, or to get me to put my foot in my mouth so I get speed elim'd next. But like, I see zero benefits to doing this if you're town, because you're not even voting me. Why vote Mush then try to argue with me?

Why are yoo assuming we have a voyeur or watcher? What are your premises that lead to that conclusion?

If anything, the flip of a tracker decreases the chance since role variety is generally important for balancing reasons.

It's a 21 player game, if we had neither our chances of catching scum drop drastically. I've seen normal large games with around ten town PRs so it really isn't out of the question here to have more than one investigation role. I'm pretty confident we have at least one of those roles and that you weren't RB'd. I'm also pretty sure scum have a Ninja but that's a less helpful statement I guess.

Why would you argue with someone who has minimal power and voice in the game state over someone who might actually be able to convince people to see things your way?

I disagree heavily with your fundamental assumption. You might not be a MUSH or Lambdadelta, but you certainly are loud and have quite some control over the game state, even if it doesn't end well. Also, you already out your foot in your mouth by TMI'ing there is a watcher.

Thanks, but I know I was pretty low impact Day 1. I just occasionally say the right thing.

What made you focus on Watcher when I also mentioned Voyeur?

A watcher would /never/ target me because I would /never/ be killed night 1. A watcher gains much more from watching whoever is killed than they would by watching me. Even if we assume there is a watcher, your conclusions don't follow. A voyeur perhaps would target me, but there is no solid indicator a voyeur exists.

pedit: Laziness.

No reason to target you when everyone expected you to get RB'd? You really think town doesn't try to catch the Roleblocker?

Roden, what do you get out of engaging with a scum Ircher focused on cheap shots and tearing down strong town voices before they can townblock and crush scum? Why do you do that as town, I mean? It seems important to clarify, given this would be Grade A theater.

Because Ircher's content is a lot more readable when he's talking to me, most of his posts are pretty reserved and forgettable otherwise. Seeing who reacts to him, and how, is important, and seeing who he attacks when he let's his guard down is even more important.

sorry bro not convinced.

[Malakittens]

Oh nice, Catboi's in and already towning it up.

@Nora:

I think we should still elim Ircher since he still has a pretty high chance of flipping red, even now he still won't address the reads on him and he isn't scum hunting. If he flips town, I think it's still a good info flip and we won't have people tunneled on a slot that isn't doing all that much.

Also heavily disagree about sending investigative roles to check Ircher. I do agree with the reasoning but we definitely shouldn't call out who the investigative roles target, if scum have a Watcher then they'll easily find town PRs.

@Val:

I'll reply to you on Day 2 (or today if Ircher claims a PR and people get cold feet), since I don't want to distract from the wagon and I don't expect to die tonight

.

This post is also bugging the shit out of me

it's almost like he knew that Ircher was gonna fake claim.

[Malakittens]

In post 4106, Dunnstral wrote:
In post 4105, Roden wrote:
Why are both you and STD ignoring the fact that Ircher and I went at each other D1 and D2? And that I pretty heavily softed how I knew that Ircher hadn't been Roleblocked?


What are you claiming here?

If you actually read my posts, you'd be able to figure that out. Why are you still blindly sheeping wagons after we already had two mis-elims?

hahahah blinding sheeping wagons.

I cased you

so blind\

BLIND

[Save The Dragons]

Sorry you feel that way roden

[Dunnstral]

Did you target Tet last night?

I'm picking up what you are putting down but don't understand this part

[NorwegianboyEE]

Oh Polaris. That’s like the entity of good or something in Control.
Like the major force of good that fights against the Hiss that possesses the objects of power and turns them evil.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Andante your case is not convincing me.
Not voting Mastina, sorry mate.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Scum will probably solve Roden for us if the flavour is any indication.
Hopefully it won’t be another Ircher style claim intended to buy time… But i don’t really scumread them to begin with so whatevs.

[NorwegianboyEE]

What Mush said about you is pretty funny Andante.
You’re like an cursed slot, that wherever they vote, will make the wagon look like poo even if it was an genuinely good wagon moments previous.

[The Three Bears]

So... I have a theory...

I think mold was an attempt to janitor The Bears, but the kill was protected by LLD. The kill was stopped, but the mold was a clue that they were being targeted. I think mastina is using the mold as an attempt to get town cred.

Yeah no, nobody's touching mastina.

-Pinkie

[Malakittens]

FUCK YOU

IF SHES SCUM AND YOU ARE WALLING HER

IMMA BE PISSED

but one of roden Mastina are scum if not both

Sorry not budging off roden just yet

[The Three Bears]

Yes, the game thread is shit and is in all likelihood already in a loss state for town and as such my desire to put anything forward is at a minimum

Alternatively you can actually come play the game and drop dragging down the rest of us here who are confident in a town win and trying to solve.

[The Three Bears]

FUCK YOU

IF SHES SCUM AND YOU ARE WALLING HER

IMMA BE PISSED

but one of roden Mastina are scum if not both

Sorry not budging off roden just yet

screw you too, Roden and Mastina are town, and you don't get my support for those two.

Alternatively you have the option of Dunn, Toogs, or Andante.

Not sorry.

-Pinkie the Wall