Newbie 2093 | New Wave | Postgame

[Takemikazuchi02]

@TTTT

Last game Corn was maf and I was doctor. I had a scumread on him from the beginning of the game, I hammered his partner day 1 and I healed his kill target night 1 and the game ended on day 2. So maybe he's town and he thinks I'm smarter than I actually am and thus worth defending or he's maf and he's trying to buddy me up because of that or simply that he's a sensible townie arguing against bad arguments, bad arguments that have mostly been targeted at me.

[ItalianoVD]

Italiano, please front-load your reasoning a bit more so it doesn't have to be wrung out of you over the series of half a dozen posts. I don't know if this is part of your "strategy" but it is getting old.

My only strategy is to interact with everyone in the playerlist.

Reactions are important in this game as everyone already knows. In my opinion Take has responded poorly to a reaction test. You on the other hand has responded in a way that is more calm and collected. I understand that to be within your scumrange as you were pretty cool and collected as scum in 2091. I’m not sure how to take that just yet.

You mentioned that

Take

was a type of player to get agitated and that you personally don’t like those type of players. But from what I’ve seen in 2091 there’s a much more engaged Take, a much more concise Take, and a lot less agitated and emotional except for duly warranted.

My point is that Take has been emotional and agitated before we even had our 1v1 when reading his ISO.

Maybe Take has an issue with SEs or veterans because I’ve seen some of the same agitation and annoyance directed at TTTT. Like I didn’t see this type of agitation from town!Take in 2091. Even when he was going at it with you and abdbla and got agitated and angry, it was achieved in a much more townie way.

Here he just seems to be annoyed that he’s playing the game regardless of interactions or anything else. I don’t see that level of excitement/engagement and that usually indicates a change in alignment.

[ItalianoVD]

What I’ve come to learn iirc, at least from scum!corn, is that he doesn’t flinch at pressure and votes. Did you find that to be true in your last game Take? Abdbla? Aspho?

[CornPuffBuddha]

It's very late and I don't wanna half-ass a post. I'll sleep on it and look back through the past few pages when I'm more awake, it got pretty hectic.

[Takemikazuchi02]

You say I only got agitated when duly warranted but my talk with you warrants me being agitated and the game post the introductions stage has been dominated by my interactions with you and TTTT and most of the other's people's posts have commenting on said interactions.

[Val89]

@TTTT You, Italiano, Abd and Val, nearly half the players seriously think saying hi can be a tell and you except people not to argue against you?

Still skimming through, but quickly; for the record, this isn't true, at least as far as myself - I think I was pretty clear in 104 that I didn't think the tell itself had much value in sorting those who to whom it may apply, but instead had value in understanding what TTTT might have been thinking. To be clear, it appears from subsequent discussion that I was wrong even on that.

Further, it should be noted that it was ME who brought this up, thinking that there would be some use in sorting TTTT, NOT by TTTT or Italiano. I regret doing so now, not least for the fact that I fear scum may have co-opted that discussion to direct the entire attention of the thread into what is a very minor point of justification as to why I was feeling a slight, early townlean on TTTT, of the sort that is always the most susceptible to change as the game moves on anyhow.

[Val89]

I have less time to make my case on Aspho that I thought, and I'll get back to it later, but suffice it to say, if you want to look at an entrance, or rather a re-enterence of some substance that it highly likely to be alignment indicative, to my eyes, 194 is the scummiest in the game by a wide margin.

Putting aside the "mathematical fallacy" business aside for a moment, for fear the fact my own education is in Mathematics is skewing the importance I might place on that, the long discussion on what meta means in games other than mafia is one of the plainest (and egegious, in terms on non-relevant padding) examples of information-instead-of-analysis I've seen.

It appears to have been prompted by Italianos misuse of the word meta in 102. I used it in single quotes in my reply at 104 to indicate that was the wrong term, but that's all it was worth because Italianos intent in asking the question - what are your thoughts I. The continued relevancy - was clear and unambiguous.

It smells to me like someone felt the need to make a lengthy post after an absence without actually having anything to say. What game-relevant conclusions can be drawn from that? I can't glean any.

She continues her post by saying she mentions it because she doesn't understand what Italiano is doing, but can somehow conclude they are likely town from it.

I will have to conclude this later, but there is more, and, for emphasis

VOTE: Asphodelus

[BigTerp]

What's the point of putting Aspho at E-2 when she won't be here for the next two days to respond? And during RVS too.

it's not intended to get a response from Aspho
lots of other good reasons to get an early wagon here
for starters nobody cares about a wagon until E-2
as we can see already from the comments following my vote

Everyone can see what you're doing though so we're not gonna get good information out of this.

This 61 too. If you want to put someone at E-2 to create discussion then voting for Italiano or Corn over someone who's V/LA is a no brainer.

It seems to be getting plenty of response from yourself, which is interesting.

[BigTerp]

TTTT is probably just spewing any bullshit he can think of to get reactions. I don't like his attitude but its NAI.

Again, is getting plenty of reaction form yourself. I've got a lot of catching up to do this morning, but your reaction to TTTT so far is interesting.

[BigTerp]

Italiano's gameplay at the moment is scum+. Town should make an effort to be open and I don't see that. I also think it's easy to fake reads by acting mysterious.

I don't disagree with this. The mysterious, cute, etc. posts do nothing to help advance the game. I don't see any point in it whatsoever.

The back and forth between Italiano and Take seems odd. Not sure why Take is seeming so irritated. They say it's strictly because of Italiano's postings, which is another reason those mysterious type posts are not helpful.

[BigTerp]

Italiano's gameplay at the moment is scum+. Town should make an effort to be open and I don't see that. I also think it's easy to fake reads by acting mysterious.

Yeah, yeah I know it seems like that, but if you could let me do what I do, I promise I will open up fully at the right time. Sometimes I don’t fully open up due to not wanting to give scum ideas that they may have not thought about. I know people can see it as anti-town, but

Oh another thing, just because this is the newbie queue, I treat no one like a newb. I give you my full force of even in the newbie games. The more you see me play the more you’ll understand what I do and why I do what I do.

Besides we have 7 days. What’s the rush?

Nevermind. I understand Take's frustration now.

Italiano is basically saying they have it figured out, yet don't want to "rush" the game. The point is to win and eliminate mafia, not drag things out for whatever reason. Am I missing something here?

[BigTerp]

MAN!!! I'm going to attempt a reads list, but my head is spinning/hurts after catching up this morning. The game, so far, has been dominated by just a few players. With the holiday and weekend that's understandable. But the context of most of the game so far is what has my head hurting. Arguing over intro posts, mysterious/clever type posts, agitation/irritation and long drawn out lecturing type posts. I'm far from a seasoned or good mafia player, but those type of posts, IMO, are not really helping the game along.

Val89 - With only 6 posts so far, probably the most unremarkable player for me thus far into the game.

Null read.

Takemikazuchi02 - FAR from unremarkable so far, LOL. The intense irritation/agitation gives me pause, but I can't see mafia wanting to stick out so much so early in the game.

Town lean.

CornPuffBuddha - Another unremarkable player for me for whatever reason. A few have scum reads here, but I honestly don't have much to go on. Need to go back and read this one in ISO.

Null read

ItalianoVD - Some weird, mysterious type posts that seem rather anti-town. They've frustrated a few players and seem to have stalled the game a bit. Similar to Take though, I can't see mafia being this brazen and sticking their neck out so much early on in the game. However, it still feels pretty scummy to me the way they are playing.

Null to scum read here.

TTTT - I've played with TTTT in my only previous game here. He was town and worked hard to ask relevant questions and move the game along productively. Some don't seem to like his style, so far this game, but he playing very similar to that previous game.

Town read here.

Asphodelus - Another one with not much context. ZERO feeling here either way.

Null read

abdbla - Minimal posts, but they seem rather fluffy and lacking much context.

Null to scum read.

furtiveglance - Only other player I've previously played with (same game at TTTT). I misread them several times throughout the game and they ended town. Seem to be playing very similar this game. Decent conversation and questions, much of which has so far aligned with my own thoughts.

Town read here.

[BigTerp]

I'm not liking the fact that I've got 3 null reads, and no real strong scum reads so far. Would love to hear more from Asphodelus, abdbla and Val89. I know it's early and were coming off a holiday weekend, but having 3 players sort of hiding in the shadows is not helpful.

[BigTerp]

this is my 100th game of mafia on forum dot mafiascum dot net
(someone should bake a cake in postgame or something)
and I'm trying to not be bothered by players rolling up in here thinking they have nothing to learn
and linking fucking wikipedia articles about logical fallacies

Yeah, ok

VOTE: TTTT

Bigger post to follow soon.

I'm interested to hear your reasoning here and your "bigger post" which I assume will include that. This seems more like an OMGUS vote that anything.

[CornPuffBuddha]

Aspho's 214 is interesting. I have a relatively good TR on TTTT based on their general posting and attitude feeling active townie to me by this point, so I'd be very interested to hear why Aspho is voting them for 213. I'll wait for the big post they said is coming.

@TTTT

216 - Notice every single time you listed that I defended him it was based around the same exchange over 60. I am not going to the ends of the earth to defend T02, I had an opinion on a singular topic of discussion and I wanted to present my interpretation of the thread. You and others disagreed, so we argued about it for a few posts. If you see that as a scumtell I don't know what to tell you.

@T02

217 - That statement doesn't necessarily come from me thinking you're a particularly good player (no offense), moreso that I don't think most scum players familiar with social deduction games and with atleast one forum game under their belt would be that incompetent. This isn't a foolproof logical rule by any means, but I think with such a simple proposed slip it's worthwhile atleast mentioning. Note that this also isn't necessarily a towntell, it's possible TTTT is reading a slip where there isn't one but T02 is still maf.

I can't help but see some of the logic in 226. I do think it's genuinely possible that T02 is just exceptionally frustrated by this player list for some reason, but this is a marked change in their demeanor from 2091 (for the negative). That being said, it would be extremely surprising to me for newbscum to stick their neck out like this and act so blatantly hostile towards several of the players - it would certainly be a very bold strategy. So my read on T02 is conflicted here.

230 reads strongly townie to me. 231 seems pretty good, trying to move the discussion in a new direction and gain some more information, with a solid provided reason. I know Aspho said they have a post coming though so I'll wait for that.

236 is an iffy reads list to me because it all just seems to be fairly obvious reads to be taken from the page couple of pages. The only interesting one here to me is the scum lean read on abdbla, I'd like to hear some elaboration on their posts "lacking context"/being fluffy.

If there's anything I missed let me know, this is an early morning post.

[furtiveglance]

You guys are giving me readslist envy so I will concoct one now

[BigTerp]

Aspho's 214 is interesting. I have a relatively good TR on TTTT based on their general posting and attitude feeling active townie to me by this point, so I'd be very interested to hear why Aspho is voting them for 213. I'll wait for the big post they said is coming.

@TTTT

216 - Notice every single time you listed that I defended him it was based around the same exchange over 60. I am not going to the ends of the earth to defend T02, I had an opinion on a singular topic of discussion and I wanted to present my interpretation of the thread. You and others disagreed, so we argued about it for a few posts. If you see that as a scumtell I don't know what to tell you.

@T02

217 - That statement doesn't necessarily come from me thinking you're a particularly good player (no offense), moreso that I don't think most scum players familiar with social deduction games and with atleast one forum game under their belt would be that incompetent. This isn't a foolproof logical rule by any means, but I think with such a simple proposed slip it's worthwhile atleast mentioning. Note that this also isn't necessarily a towntell, it's possible TTTT is reading a slip where there isn't one but T02 is still maf.

I can't help but see some of the logic in 226. I do think it's genuinely possible that T02 is just exceptionally frustrated by this player list for some reason, but this is a marked change in their demeanor from 2091 (for the negative). That being said, it would be extremely surprising to me for newbscum to stick their neck out like this and act so blatantly hostile towards several of the players - it would certainly be a very bold strategy. So my read on T02 is conflicted here.

230 reads strongly townie to me. 231 seems pretty good, trying to move the discussion in a new direction and gain some more information, with a solid provided reason. I know Aspho said they have a post coming though so I'll wait for that.

236 is an iffy reads list to me because it all just seems to be fairly obvious reads to be taken from the page couple of pages. The only interesting one here to me is the scum lean read on abdbla, I'd like to hear some elaboration on their posts "lacking context"/being fluffy.

If there's anything I missed let me know, this is an early morning post.

I agree with much of what you posted here. Specifically regarding Val89 and 230 and 231. After going back and ISOing Val89 78 looks to be some decent scum hunting.

I'll address my reads list. It seems iffy, because it literally is. I even mentioned after posting it that I did not like having 3 null reads and zero solid scum reads. After catching up with the thread this morning, the only things that really stuck out to me were the back and forth between Italiano and Take and the arguments about initial post greetings. I honestly had to go down the ISO list to make sure I had every player included in my reads list. As far as abdbla, I'll admit that going back through their ISO there was more context to their posts that I gave them credit for. But posts like 116,119, 121, 126 and 209 are all discussing, at some length, the irrelevant issue of how players greet the game. It encompasses half their total posts. Seems rather pointless/fluffy to me.

[Asphodelus]

No, I definitely don't think TTTT is town leaning, but more importantly to me, they're just annoying. Between 205 and 213, it just gives me the entire vibe of 'i have played more therefor i know more than you'. Quite frankly, I'm not actually enjoying playing with them as much as I enjoyed the previous group of players. Or, to confirm BigTerp's, it's definitely a OMGUS vote. The mistake thats being made here as well is thinking that interrogation and activity is the same as indicating town; but you've played with GoodMorning -- neither posting 5 one line sentences, one massive paragraph, or anything akin to it is AI. Poking at people over a frikkin fallacy and then getting mad at them for calling you out is literal 'well, i was only pretending to be bad!'

Going back to post 230 and 231 -- the entire point of that 'information without telling' was to state the grounds of what I believe. The entire Train on T02 is started from a faulty premise, based on inappropiate statistical analysis and confusion on what a meta was. The

entire

point of it was to say I dislike the entire shit-flinging contest that was going on.

The issue I'm having is this is basically the same thing that happened in the last game under the guise of expertise over statistical analysis. Italiano's entire gimmick is saying pointed and accusatory things to see their reactions, then judge them from a sample set of one game and draw a completely different conclusion. TTTT's is much the same, except there's a pointed approach to T02 for some reason.

T02 isn't stupid, just inexperienced, and seeing from previous games, tends to write what he means. The entire thing coming on from 'why put Ash on e-2' is predicated on the fact the entire move was stupid and pretty obvious from anyone who was reading. It served no real purpose, except, as this thread is showing 'well the fact you called it stupid means we got the result we wanted!'. It's almost like

Spoiler: Bait

and then everyone saying 'he recognized its bait, therefore it worked!'.

You're either accepting the fact that Italiano, with his weird 'i have solved the game in turn 1 but now we must slow post and wait' (which I think he just has his head up his own ass) is being town indicative for being _active_, or 'null-scum' for being vague, but at the same flip of the coin, you can't actually say that posting many lines of just stupid, fallacious ideas that are obvious to people with half a brain is AI.

I don't find TTTT Town-Leaning since a lot of their points are reaches. And more importantly, if there was an elim for tonight, I'd want it to be them.

[TTTT]

@Val
have you read 2091 (the game with several players from this playerlist)?
if so, what differences in Aspho's play do you see here from that game?
anybody feel free to jump in and answer, but asking Val specifically because he is voting her
I've still only skimmed that game

[abdbla]

As far as abdbla, I'll admit that going back through their ISO there was more context to their posts that I gave them credit for. But posts like 116,119, 121, 126 and 209 are all discussing, at some length, the irrelevant issue of how players greet the game. It encompasses half their total posts. Seems rather pointless/fluffy to me.

Very true, the whole greeting issue is largely tangential to the trajectory of the game. I don't think I'll comment on it further, but I just find the subject entertaining.

Note that this also isn't necessarily a towntell, it's possible TTTT is reading a slip where there isn't one but T02 is still maf.

The way you phrased this makes it seem like you think its a towntell in your opinion. Is that what you think? If it is, why did you hedge yourself like this? If you don't think it is a towntell, again, why hedge that it might be by phrasing it like this?

I can't help but see some of the logic in 226. I do think it's genuinely possible that T02 is just exceptionally frustrated by this player list for some reason, but this is a marked change in their demeanor from 2091 (for the negative). That being said, it would be extremely surprising to me for newbscum to stick their neck out like this and act so blatantly hostile towards several of the players - it would certainly be a very bold strategy. So my read on T02 is conflicted here.

I don't think I agree with this interpretation, or the interpretation of Italiano at large. I find T02 to be acting fairly similar to how he was later in the game, with the differences being accounted for by a boost of confidence from correct scumreads (though I don't agree how he got there) and the fact that Italiano's arguing is often iffy at best.

On that subject, Italiano mindset in general feels very iffy to me. His early posting definitely gave me the vibe of a (perhaps overly) confident mafia player with a lot of experience, that arrogance and ego shining through. His recent posts have dialied this back pretty heavily, though, and it really just reads like scum changing tacks when the previous tactic didn't go over so well. The shift in tone after post 180 is

drastic

.

P-edit:

if so, what differences in Aspho's play do you see here from that game?

I'm largely in agreement with val on the post, Asph tended to have game commentary as well as the pigeon thing going, it wasn't

just

meaningless/tangential topics that half the playerlist didn't care about.

[CornPuffBuddha]

FWIW from what I've read of town!TTTT this game he so far seems pretty consistent with his playstyle. I'll need to find a relatively recent game with scum!TTTT to compare.

I'd like to hear out TTTT's response to 242 though.

Terp makes a valid point about abdbla in 241. I want to see more activity from them soon or they'll probably start to slide into my scum lean category.

P-edit: Looks like abdbla made a post just as I finished writing mine. I'll take a look at it and give my thoughts.

[BigTerp]

I don't understand the hostility that's happening this game. It's extremely discouraging.

[TTTT]

No, I definitely don't think TTTT is town leaning

, but more importantly to me, they're just annoying.

well that changed quickly from...

I get TTTT and T02; they're basically slinging shit at each other and trying to see what sticks. Honestly, with how this game is going,

I'm convinced they're both actually town but weird.

and then after rated your Logical Fallacies Lecture Series (sponsored by Wikipedia) a 1 out of 5 stars
you decided I was scum
I get it, you don't like me
I can get on people's nerves
sorry about that
I'm trying to sort people and sometimes it can be grating I know
hopefully, regardless of your alignment, you'll grow to love me
and we can share with each other our hopes and dreams and deepest life regrets

[TTTT]

I don't understand the hostility that's happening this game. It's extremely discouraging.

sorry
I will try and tone it down on my side

[TTTT]

@Asph
plz see below
thanks

200
It comes down to the fact you both are arguing at each other with no real end goal in mind. The very fact you both seem like you have no idea what you're doing besides flinging shit at each other makes me think you're both town.

yeah that's gonna need more explanation

I'd still like more explanation of the TRs on me and T02 for "flinging shit at each other"
which you defined as "bickering" in 197 when I asked about it