Newbie 2093 | New Wave | Postgame

[catboi]

Vote Count 1.08

abdbla (3):

furtiveglance, CornPuffBuddha, BigTerp

CornPuffBuddha (2):

abdbla, Malakittens

Takemikazuchi02 (2):

ItalianoVD, Val89

ItalianoVD (1):

Takemikazuchi02

Malakittens (1):

Asphodelus

With 9 alive, it's 5 to eliminate.

Deadline for Day 1 is April 24 at 6:00 PM EST.

Deadline Timer:

(expired on 2022-04-24 18:00:00)

[Val89]

Poor Mala, her existence forgotten for two VCs now...

[BigTerp]

As promised, I went back through Val's ISO and the last few pages of the thread. In Furtive's and Take's defense, this particular post does stick out at scummy to me. Particularly the bolded parts.

Sorry, BigTerp, I know it's difficult to see how others might perceive your own slot, but I can not think of any reason someone might legitimately find anything you've bolded there scummy.

Are you aware of the context of the last time I met furtive?

Spoiler: Furtive on T02

Takemikazuchi02: I townread Take early for the aggression and frankness. Looking at his ISO now though, I can see that defensive mafia is a possibility.

Appreciate the response.

Disagree, I've gone back and forth but I land town with Take - especially as Val and Italiano are the ones hard pushing him.

I have Take as a null read. Italiano is scummier. It's game strategy - sometimes you vote with a player who is hard pushing someone else.

I think it is VERY clear that furtive, while I think they are town, is allowing their read on others to affect how they see the T02 slot - someone I think is very likely to flip red. I think the fact that furtive said they 'land town' on T02, then within a few posts was back to null again when BigTerp and Italiano pushed for more clarity on that read indicates to me furtive knows they doesn't actually have good reason to TR T02, but they are treating them as green because they distrust me and Italiano, who are pushing T02. I know I am town and I am leaning town on Italiano as well, so that's a big problem. Even if I am wrong about T02, or Italiano for that matter, the fact that the one read I know is incorrect is affecting furtives other reads is an issue, and that's an objective fact. The only case that wouldn't be true is if furtive was mafia and inventing all their reads, and I don't think that is the case.

I'm going to have to insist you explaining your thinking on this one BigTerp, because I'm not seeing how you arrive where you do.

No, I'm unaware of your previously dealings with Furtive. If you'd like to fill me in, or point me in the right direction I'll certainly look into it.

As far as what I bolded being perceived as scummy.........The reference to your "slot" and previous dealings with Furtive in previous games just seems like a way to present an argument without really saying much and being able to be held accountable for it later on. Typical Mafia style play. Secondly, saying things like "knowing my own alignment" and "but it's worth a short" (in reference to possibly being wrong on your read on Take) both just sound scummy to me.

I don't disagree on your take on Furtive. I pointed it out earlier on them being sort of wishy washy with their read on Take. The difference is I read it as a bit of a scummy move, where you are seeing it as them allowing their read on others to effect their read on Take.

With that said, I've still got you in my town pile. Furtive is still a tough read for me, as always. But if you were to flip red, I'd peg Furtive as your scum partner.

[BigTerp]

Val is prob town

I want to start interacting with people on real time now since I'm kinda bad on forming reads when i replace in.

What are your thoughts on the early play of Take and Italiano, specifically the interaction between the two?

How about abdbla and Asphodelus' minimal participation in the game? (15 posts each)

You've got Take as town+ and Val as town. What are you thoughts on Val seemingly tunneling Take at this point?

You say "gross" to Italiano's 71. Are you scum reading them? What other thoughts do you have here?

I'll be around until around 4:00 EST. So can engage in real time until then.

[Val89]

No, I'm unaware of your previously dealings with Furtive. If you'd like to fill me in, or point me in the right direction I'll certainly look into it.

In furtives first ever game on this site, I was scum, and I got him, the claimed town tracker, mislimmed one-on-one D2 with a fake CC. He was, understandably, extremely frustrated about it to the point he said we was considering not playing again. The game in question for reference is here. It's clear from the post game discussion that he considered that game lost - despite being reassured by others that it wasn't his fault, I just played a good scum game - because he wasn't able to convince everyone else what was obvious to him, that I was mafia.

I think it's somewhat understandable that either town!furtive would therefore be hypersensitive or a scum!furtive would probably be looking for any chance for revenge this game, and I've been looking closely at those possibilities from the get go.

"but it's worth a short" (in reference to possibly being wrong on your read on Take) both just sound scummy to me.

In actual fact, that wasn't in reference to being possibly wrong on my read on Take. The full context is as follows:

I might be wasting my time here, but it's worth a short, because I would really like to flip T02 today. I'm highly confident that will result in a red flip, and perhaps that will knock you out of this in itself; and if your unwarranted distrust of me is part of what is standing in the way of that, that's an issue.

I was asking furtive to look at me again with fresh eyes, perhaps with some awareness of how our previous game might be affecting his read; I know that's a big ask, but I considered it 'worth a shot' because, as I explained, I think the fact he went from Town to null again on T02 in the space of 20 or so posts and that he only had 'val and italiano are pushing t02' to say in support of that TR is evidence that it is that unwarranted distrust that is standing in the way of a lim I think is going to result in a red flip, and that's obviously the best start we can have to this game. It wasn't the T02 lim that was, but the direct appeal to furtive to look at me again that I considered worth a shot.

If you had wrongly read that as 'I might be wrong about t02 but want to lim him anyway', and you didn't know those previous circumstances, then I can at least understand why you thought that might have been scummy. I thought there might have been a bit of opportunism on your part there, but it makes sense how that could have been a town thought now.

[Takemikazuchi02]

Why are you so adamant that I'm maf? Your stated reason for scumreading me initially was a faulty one at best and when I correct you you just keep coming up with new bad arguments one after the other.
You've been tunneling on me for days now, not trying to advance the game, not saying what you'd do if I flipped town. You're either maf or a another veteran smelling his farts.

[Malakittens]

Poor Mala, her existence forgotten for two VCs now...

sounds like the story of my life

[furtiveglance]

No, I'm unaware of your previously dealings with Furtive. If you'd like to fill me in, or point me in the right direction I'll certainly look into it.

In furtives first ever game on this site, I was scum, and I got him, the claimed town tracker, mislimmed one-on-one D2 with a fake CC. He was, understandably, extremely frustrated about it to the point he said we was considering not playing again. The game in question for reference is here. It's clear from the post game discussion that he considered that game lost - despite being reassured by others that it wasn't his fault, I just played a good scum game - because he wasn't able to convince everyone else what was obvious to him, that I was mafia.

I think it's somewhat understandable that either town!furtive would therefore be hypersensitive or a scum!furtive would probably be looking for any chance for revenge this game, and I've been looking closely at those possibilities from the get go.

"but it's worth a short" (in reference to possibly being wrong on your read on Take) both just sound scummy to me.

In actual fact, that wasn't in reference to being possibly wrong on my read on Take. The full context is as follows:

I might be wasting my time here, but it's worth a short, because I would really like to flip T02 today. I'm highly confident that will result in a red flip, and perhaps that will knock you out of this in itself; and if your unwarranted distrust of me is part of what is standing in the way of that, that's an issue.

I was asking furtive to look at me again with fresh eyes, perhaps with some awareness of how our previous game might be affecting his read; I know that's a big ask, but I considered it 'worth a shot' because, as I explained, I think the fact he went from Town to null again on T02 in the space of 20 or so posts and that he only had 'val and italiano are pushing t02' to say in support of that TR is evidence that it is that unwarranted distrust that is standing in the way of a lim I think is going to result in a red flip, and that's obviously the best start we can have to this game. It wasn't the T02 lim that was, but the direct appeal to furtive to look at me again that I considered worth a shot.

If you had wrongly read that as 'I might be wrong about t02 but want to lim him anyway', and you didn't know those previous circumstances, then I can at least understand why you thought that might have been scummy. I thought there might have been a bit of opportunism on your part there, but it makes sense how that could have been a town thought now.

I'm not the kind of player to hold a grudge or let previous games' events affect my reads. My read on you is entirely due to your continued peddling of Aspho/Take being paired scum. I don't scumread either player at the moment, let alone both. So then I have to decide whether I'm wrong (don't think so), you're wrong and very overconfident town (possible) or scum pushing town (my current read).

[furtiveglance]

Welcome Malakittens, I take it you'll move your vote soon. Who is your preferred elimination so far?

[BigTerp]

In furtives first ever game on this site, I was scum, and I got him, the claimed town tracker, mislimmed one-on-one D2 with a fake CC. He was, understandably, extremely frustrated about it to the point he said we was considering not playing again. The game in question for reference is here. It's clear from the post game discussion that he considered that game lost - despite being reassured by others that it wasn't his fault, I just played a good scum game - because he wasn't able to convince everyone else what was obvious to him, that I was mafia.

I think it's somewhat understandable that either town!furtive would therefore be hypersensitive or a scum!furtive would probably be looking for any chance for revenge this game, and I've been looking closely at those possibilities from the get go.

Thanks for the explanation.

"but it's worth a short" (in reference to possibly being wrong on your read on Take) both just sound scummy to me.

In actual fact, that wasn't in reference to being possibly wrong on my read on Take. The full context is as follows:

I might be wasting my time here, but it's worth a short, because I would really like to flip T02 today. I'm highly confident that will result in a red flip, and perhaps that will knock you out of this in itself; and if your unwarranted distrust of me is part of what is standing in the way of that, that's an issue.

I was asking furtive to look at me again with fresh eyes, perhaps with some awareness of how our previous game might be affecting his read; I know that's a big ask, but I considered it 'worth a shot' because, as I explained, I think the fact he went from Town to null again on T02 in the space of 20 or so posts and that he only had 'val and italiano are pushing t02' to say in support of that TR is evidence that it is that unwarranted distrust that is standing in the way of a lim I think is going to result in a red flip, and that's obviously the best start we can have to this game. It wasn't the T02 lim that was, but the direct appeal to furtive to look at me again that I considered worth a shot.

If you had wrongly read that as 'I might be wrong about t02 but want to lim him anyway', and you didn't know those previous circumstances, then I can at least understand why you thought that might have been scummy. I thought there might have been a bit of opportunism on your part there, but it makes sense how that could have been a town thought now.[/quote]

Fair enough. My mistake on equating the "but it's worth a shot" to you possibly being wrong on your Take read.

[BigTerp]

The above quoted really weirdly for me. My responses are in bold.

[Val89]

I'm not the kind of player to hold a grudge or let previous games' events affect my reads. My read on you is entirely due to your continued peddling of Aspho/Take being paired scum. I don't scumread either player at the moment, let alone both.

You say that, but that's not what I am getting. 3 posts ago you said your read on me was due to a lot of my posts being "strategy or otherwise not pertinent to other players" and then gave 3 examples, two of which you then explained yourself in that same post which players they related to or that they related to this game. The other reason you gave was because my vote on Aspho was OMGUS, and despite saying you defined that as a reciprocal vote, and being specifically invited to check the VCs again you STILL failed to notice that I was already voting Aspho when she voted me, and that my 'vote' in 231 was, as indicated, purely for emphasis.

I have to say, if you give a simple, factually-incorrect basis for a scum read - something like the order of a vote - and I indicate where you can find the objective source of information to show that it's incorrect - the Vote counts - and you still come back and continue endorsing the factually incorrect statement, I have to assume something else is going on there that is blinding you to simple things like that.

Now you say you are scumreading me because I'm pushing slots you aren't scumreading, but then we get a chicken-and-egg problem, because you've said you are townreading at least on those slots

because

they are being pushed by slots you found scummy.

Let me ask it you this way:

I have Take as a null read

Has your read on T02 changed over the last page-and-a-bit, and if so why? If not, what does a 'null read' mean to you?

[Val89]

Why are you so adamant that I'm maf?

You've spent the entire game being defensive, snappy and confrontational from the start. A good portion of your ISO has been complaining about discussion of a 'tell' that was never being applied to this game, that nobody but the slot that has now replacement out even believed in, was only ever brought up to explain why I had a slight townlean on TTTT because they did believe it it and who also denied that even so it wasn't being applied in this game. This is despite you having been told that the tell wasn't being applied in this game, and I consider your continued, repeated, aggressive, confrontational (despite saying you would drop it), did I mention repeated? compulsive need to remind us you think it is bullshit is telling. The other portion of your iso is mostly empty post that appear to be posting for the sake of posting, and I will continue to point it out every time you do it. You can complain and try and categorize it as me "coming up with new bad arguments one after the other", but you continue the empty posting.

Your continued screaming of "bullshit", "wrong", "faulty", "veterans smelling their own farts", "bad arguments" and the like, without ever giving a cognizant explanation as to why any of those descriptions stands in contrast to how 2 players have said you approached the game in 2091, and having looked at your ISO in that game, I am inclined to agree. The fact that one slot - Aspho - tells us something different is a reason I have issue with that slot.

You've done little to no scum hunting this game, and even now, the post I am responding to is a perfect example.

You're either maf or a another veteran smelling his farts.

What exactly are you trying to say? I'm either mafia, or I am town? What a revelation!

[Takemikazuchi02]

You've spent the entire game being defensive, snappy and confrontational from the start

Being snappy and confrontational is part of my personality and this has been true even in my first game. If i'm being more confrontational this game than in the last one, that's because I've been provoked more. You saying i'm being defensive is just motivated reasoning on your part.

good portion of your ISO has been complaining about discussion of a 'tell' that was never being applied to this game, that nobody but the slot that has now replacement out even believed in

TTTT, Abdbla and Italiano all gave credence to that "tell". See 102 and 121. You say i'm still talking about it despite saying I'll drop the subject but that's because YOU brought up that "tell" again to accuse me in 339

The other portion of your iso is mostly empty post that appear to be posting for the sake of posting

This is how I know you're just lying. The vast majority of my posts have been discussing/arguing with other, I made very few "empty" posts and I feel justified in posting the few that I did because half of the players are barely fucking participating and I need to try to get them to participate somehow.

[Val89]

This is how I know you're just lying.

Really? OK, go ahead...

The vast majority of my posts have been discussing/arguing with other,

Correct, as I said.

I made very few "empty" posts and I feel justified in posting the few that I did because half of the players are barely fucking participating and I need to try to get them to participate somehow.

so... you admit to the other portion of your ISO being empty posts and attempt to provide justification as why that is the case. OK.

Do you think about your posts before posting them, or is calling people wrong and/or a liar even when you are agreeing with them just reflexive for you at this point?

[Takemikazuchi02]

Its clear you'renot being honest and you're just gonna ignore everything that doesn't suit you.
Its no use arguing with you

[BigTerp]

We need to get some more out of Asphodelus and abdbla. They are both averaging a messily 3 posts a day. abdbla's absence is the most eyebrow raising for myself. I put them to E-2 here 289. Called them out for not addressing it here 362 and suggested they getting taken to E-1 here 384. They've posted exactly twice since I put them to E-2. the second post was after I both called them out for ignoring my E-2 vote and after I suggested Italiano put them to E-1. Not a single word about any of it. Odd!!

CornPuffBuddha has been absent for a while as well and is in prod territory.

We

NEED

to get more people involved and discussions going. Back and forth between 2 or 3 players amongst a 9 player pool is doing no good. Mafia is either actively involved in the back and forth driving the direction of the game, or sitting back amongst the inactive watching town players bicker amongst themselves. I've got scum reads on both sides, so am not sure which is which. But

MORE

discussion amongst

MORE

than 2 or 3 players will help clear that up!!!

[furtiveglance]

We have a few days left before deadline. I think abdbla has the highest scum potential, Italiano might give more info though. I think we should probably vote in these two today, my preferred option is abdbla.

[CornPuffBuddha]

I'm back, ended being pretty busy today as well. Will start catching up, please direct any questions or anything you may have my way at your earliest convenience.

[BigTerp]

I'm back, ended being pretty busy today as well. Will start catching up, please direct any questions or anything you may have my way at your earliest convenience.

My bad. I missed 360 about you being V/LA.

Nothing specific to ask, but look forward to hearing some thoughts about the last few pages.

[BigTerp]

We have a few days left before deadline. I think abdbla has the highest scum potential, Italiano might give more info though. I think we should probably vote in these two today, my preferred option is abdbla.

I'm not opposed to either myself.

Would still like to hear more from those mentioned in my previous post. I know we still have time, but it seems like just a few players are driving the direction of the game. Not saying that's particularly scummy or not, but I certainly don't think it's helpful.

[Takemikazuchi02]

@Corn

What do you think on Val's tunnel on me and who do you think we should eliminate today?

[Asphodelus]

Good Day Fam,

So, I took awhile to reread this thread and the entire sentiment that came through with it. I will first go with what I have to say; a lot of my dislike and 'scumtells' towards TTTT were just me being annoyed at the arrogance factor. With a few days of separation and a cooler head, while I still do not like their playing style, I can't honestly say I consider it that scummy. If anything, TTTT was moving the game along, even if it was through a way I don't find incredibly worthwhile.

Now, moving to the game that comes before us, I don't actually understand the adblba bandwagon. If we look through the actual votes, the first one happens by

Furtiveglance

at 81; or nearly the beginning of the game. In 265 the mention of why the vote is still on them is because of the fact they're confrontational and relying far more on mathematics/statistics over game analysis. Fair enough.

CornPuffBudha

votes for them officially on a 270 which is a continuation of 269. It's between both choices, and while they thought Italiano was the scummier of the two, they picked Abdbla. Contextually, as per the mod post on 251 it was between first place person, himself, or anyone else. Fine.

BigTerp

votes for them on 289 even though, as per 362 is just basically saying 'Italiano is the scummiest, and adblba is nullish, so we should vote adblba to get a read'. That's... weird.

Reading

adblba

's posts however don't actually come off as anything scummy to me. It's just contextual analysis of the the game through math and debating about theories, hell his entire point is made in 312. I don't think the arguements people present in the posts before (and their reasoning votes) really justify this bandwagon. it almost seems like a 'this person posts the least and when he does, its not about the stuff I want too'

Initially, my next person would be Italiano. Reading his ISO doesn't actually make him come off as scummy to me anymore, just.. arrogant. Though, I think it comes down to this -- in 405 he claims the newbs dont like the vets, but in 389 he does mention the ego kept in check. I think I was reacting to his ego as well, esp the terrible game solve post he made. Looking into it now, it's not actually like he's been scummy, as much as reaction testing.

My own analysis just comes down to this bandwagon making no sense, and of all the people on it, VOTE: BigTerp has the worst reason that's not even what they personally believe.

[Asphodelus]

@Corn

What do you think on Val's tunnel on me and who do you think we should eliminate today?

Val's tunnel on you is because you're both egging each other on. It's completely stupid, and it's not just on him. I think you both are having an issue where you think fighting each other like that will result in a situation where you both reveal something, but you're just taking pot shots at each other.

[CornPuffBuddha]

Will get a more detailed post up soon, want to answer 446 first.

I don't know about Val. That slot has entered the T02 realm of constantly swapping between townie and scum on my scum-o-meter. Some of their arguments are fine, and I like their disposition overall, but in the past few pages there have been some red flags (their argument on the greeting tell was particularly fishy, and they just quietly moved off of it afterwards). But it's nothing to really put them as a hard SR for me, and they've made plenty of townie-looking posts in the past few pages. The back and forths in general have been more than a little pedantic, I agree with Aspho's 448.

At the moment I would be most comfortable eliminating Italiano, T02 or abdbla. Out of the three abdbla is the most likely to be scum to me but that may be skewed by their exceptionally low postcount. However, an Italiano or T02 flip would both give us an immense amount of information. I think there's atleast one scum in that trio, I'd be very surprised if there wasn't.