Newbie 2093 | New Wave | Postgame

[BigTerp]

At the moment I would be most comfortable eliminating Italiano, T02 or abdbla. Out of the three abdbla is the most likely to be scum to me but that may be skewed by their exceptionally low postcount. However, an Italiano or T02 flip would both give us an immense amount of information. I think there's atleast one scum in that trio, I'd be very surprised if there wasn't.

I concur with these 3 and am fine with any of them. Let's get some movement here on these 3!!!

[BigTerp]

@Malakittens

452

"Just because I say gross doesn't mean they are a scum read. i just didnt vibe with that post"

- That's a little eyebrow raising. How did you think it would be interpreted? You called a post by one of the most controversial, scumread players "gross". If you just meant you didn't "vibe with the post" (I have no idea what that means if you didn't intend to say the post was scummy), then I don't see why you would obfuscate it with a one word reply like that, in a newbie queue as well.

This is a good post as well and Mala's "gross" comment seems really weird now when they say it "doesn't mean they are a scum read. i just didnt vibe with that post" The other thing that has been interesting in Mala is 423 where they say they want to start interacting in real time because "I'm kinda bad on forming reads when i replace in." Fair enough. I made it known that I was available and formed some questions which Mala vaguely answered here 452 (6 hours later) but found the time to post here 431 with a pointless post. If they REALLY wanted to discuss in real time to help formulate some reads then why only 4 posts over 10 hours where 7 out of 8 players were active and provided an opportunity in interact in real time? Of those 4 post only 1 was remotely productive as well 452. The remainder was an unvote and these 2 completely pointless posts 469 & 431. Like I said, there were 7 players active with nearly 50 posts between the time Mala asked for in real time discussion and their last post. Really starting to look like scum to provide an excuse 423 for bad/no reads and then just coast through having zero FoS on them. And in general, pretty much nothing of substance since subbing in.

[BigTerp]

Man looking back it's insane how scummy some of Italiano's early posts seem in retrospect. But they've 180'd to a much more reasoned, townie-esque demeanor to me. Trying to figure out if this is town abandoning a dumb scumhunting tactic or a very flagrant maf pivot.

When I said I had the game figured out, what’s funny is that where I’m at now is not too far from where I was earlier. Unless I’m townreading scum I believe the solve is within Abd, Take, Aspho. Even after reading nothing has changed for me.

Could you expand on your scum reads of Abd and Aspho?

[BigTerp]

In post 441, BigTerp wrote:
abdbla's absence is the most eyebrow raising for myself. I put them to E-2 here 289. Called them out for not addressing it here 362 and suggested they getting taken to E-1 here 384. They've posted exactly twice since I put them to E-2. the second post was after I both called them out for ignoring my E-2 vote and after I suggested Italiano put them to E-1. Not a single word about any of it. Odd!!

I don't see why I would comment on it. I practically agree with the vote, and was considering trying to push up Italiano at the time you first voted me. When you called me out, it got filed away in my memory banks as "think about it more" because it just didn't make much sense to me, so I didn't respond it.

I feel like the town thing to do is to respond to things like that. Not just the vote, but then being called out for not addressing the vote and having nothing in response when someone suggests you go to E-1 seems like scum trying to avoid and, at the same time, dismiss the pressure. "it just didn't make much sense to me" isn't a good excuse to avoid it.

[ItalianoVD]

Mala's "gross" comment seems really weird now when they say it "doesn't mean they are a scum read. i just didnt vibe with that post"

Why is it weird? The two aren’t mutually exclusive. It’s possible to agree with scum posting or disagree with town posting if you are town. It happens all the time. I feel like a few of you are

trying

to make me scum, but you don’t actually believe it. You’re still working on how I entered the game and the early posts, etc. But this is how I arrived at where I’m at and a few of you agree with where I’ve arrived now, so not getting the seemingly forced scumread.

And several of you keeps saying “I’m okay with these three eliminations” mainly you, furtive, and Corn. I think Take needs to be resolved and is the best option today because I actually believe he is scum. I’m not gonna just let the change in attitude as well as the difference in how he is moving in this game go. My point is, don’t put Take in your limpool if you aren’t actually gonna vote for him because for reasons he is a better elimination than myself.

[ItalianoVD]

I’ll respond to 477 later. I’m gonna be out all day in meetings so I’ll have to get to it when we break for lunch or at one of the breaks.

[BigTerp]

Mala's "gross" comment seems really weird now when they say it "doesn't mean they are a scum read. i just didnt vibe with that post"

Why is it weird? The two aren’t mutually exclusive. It’s possible to agree with scum posting or disagree with town posting if you are town. It happens all the time. I feel like a few of you are

trying

to make me scum, but you don’t actually believe it. You’re still working on how I entered the game and the early posts, etc. But this is how I arrived at where I’m at and a few of you agree with where I’ve arrived now, so not getting the seemingly forced scumread.

And several of you keeps saying “I’m okay with these three eliminations” mainly you, furtive, and Corn. I think Take needs to be resolved and is the best option today because I actually believe he is scum. I’m not gonna just let the change in attitude as well as the difference in how he is moving in this game go. My point is, don’t put Take in your limpool if you aren’t actually gonna vote for him because for reasons he is a better elimination than myself.

If someone quotes a post and comments "gross", what other interpretation would I get? If they "just didnt vibe with that post" then saying that or that they disagree is a much better way to explain it.

Yes, I'm OK currently with an elim of Italiano, Take or abdbla. But your questioning of my take on Mala's post (after others had the same sentiment) has me looking at her even a bit harder than my previous post.

Going back through TTTT who held the slot previously to Mala, I find 162, 171, 173, 178 and 185 either defending or deflecting from Italiano. TTTT is one who seems to really try and scum hunt and figure things out early. With Italiano's early odd play/posts, TTTT never directly addresses it. Just calling his read on Italiano town and trying to get Take to discuss something other than Italiano (deflect).

If Italiano flips scum, I think there is a high chance that Mala is the scum partner.

[BigTerp]

VOTE: ItalianoVD

[furtiveglance]

I still think abdbla has a higher chance of flipping red, but an Italiano flip would give us more information. Scum!Italiano probably clears Val and Take since scum would neither pair openly or be at each other's throats on day 1, at least assuming normal play.

[furtiveglance]

VOTE: ItalianoVD

[BigTerp]

VOTE: ItalianoVD

This puts Italiano at E-2, correct?

[furtiveglance]

Think it's me you and Take right now so yeah

[abdbla]

I feel like the town thing to do is to respond to things like that. Not just the vote, but then being called out for not addressing the vote and having nothing in response when someone suggests you go to E-1 seems like scum trying to avoid and, at the same time, dismiss the pressure. "it just didn't make much sense to me" isn't a good excuse to avoid it.

It's not that I was avoiding it just because it didn't make sense to me, I just wanted to dedicate more thought to the matter before I responded. As mentioned, I didn't really have the time to do that, so the post slipped away from me. I'll cop to the fact that I should've probably responded to the original vote, but I didn't consider it. I thought it was more or less meant for other people to respond to.

While I was reading through the posts I've missed, I feel like this one got skipped over a little.

Nothing else has changed. I still believe Take is scum. I

did

use a reaction test with both him and Corn and I feel Take failed. I’m thinking Corn is probably town, however, what I can’t get out of my head is that if Corn is scum and somehow Take is town, scum!Corn agreed about Take’s change in behavior as a way to pocket me and agree with me to possibly miselim Take.

I'm going to ignore the preamble in the post, because I don't really believe that a person who'd go out of their way to apologize for previous behaviour wouldn't have the wherewithal to just not let their ego get the best of them.

Rather, I dislike the quoted part because it really just reads to me like attempting to set up a mislim after T02.

In any case, having also read Corn's ISO, I'm fairly sure I'm just biased. The turn around in 449 and 450, the entire 332 post, 297... I could go on, but I feel a little unreasonable.

UNVOTE: CornPuffBuddha

As for T02, definitely dropped for the same reasons, but some of their recent posts are in their favor, like 438 and 468. I'm iffy on Val as well, but the tunnel between the two isn't doing anything for me. As Val is SE, I find 439 a little weird, but I already commented on that. Not enough to drop T02 below Italiano.

P-edit: Here's where I would've voted Italiano, if he didn't already get run up to E-2. I'd like to give him time to at least respond to 477 before jumping the wagon.

[ItalianoVD]

Okay I figured that would happen and that’s why I posted 479.

I find it impossible for anyone to say Take is playing exactly the way he played in 2091.

A few of you have mentioned it and how you’ve seen it to be true, you don’t pressure it though, you go after the person that did. Make it make sense to me.

Rather, I dislike the quoted part because it really just reads to me like attempting to set up a mislim after T02.

Wrong. I’m probably like 90% sure Take is scum and the way you have been positioning yourself around him makes me think you are his partner.

I am not setting up any miselim. We solve Take and then we move from there. I don’t care about Day 2 right now. I’m focusing on Day 1.

If you are town and you think I am wrongly accusing

you

of being scum, who is the probable partner of Take, you know since you do have him in your limpool.

[CornPuffBuddha]

@abdbla

487 - Could you elaborate on the line before unvoting me? I'm kinda scratching my head at what you mean. I'm guessing it's some kind of TR on me.

I'm actually thinking a T02 elim would give us more info than an Italiano elim right now.

And I'm a little confused why the people who agree with me abdbla is the most likely to flip scum don't have their vote on him.

Also if I was abdbla I would just put Italiano to E-1, considering no one's gonna hammer until he makes another post anyways. So a little weird there.

The way T02 has just basically given up on day 1 is so anti-town and nobody has commented on it. I feel like town!Take would be so convinced that Italiano is scum they would be pushing for an elim harder, given their interaction. But no, they're making a show of being frustrated by the game and bickering with Terp and Val. It's either very lazy and poor town play or some kind of weird scumtell. I don't find Italiano's slot particularly townie but his T02/abdbla solve is certainly interesting. As I said earlier though I'd be surprised if both our maf were in those three.

I just want this day to end honestly. I think with the rather unpleasant turn the game has taken we're not going to get much more productive out of it. I'm also somewhat worried if abdbla flips town we're going to be back to square 1 day 2, most likely with two less town.

I could be off base. After all, this is my first town game. And it's been a pretty chaotic one. But these are just my thoughts at the moment.

[furtiveglance]

I still want an abdbla vote but we were sat at E-2 for ages and I think an Italiano elim has more support. It's been mentioned by others and my self that Italiano's flip might give more info than abdbla as well.

[Takemikazuchi02]

I agree with you on Abdbla. Eliminating him won't be productive if he flips town.
My two scumreads are Italiano and Val and those two will give us more info after they flip than Abdbla.

[CornPuffBuddha]

Furtive, what's your case for limming Italiano? And if he flips town, what useful info would he give us that makes it worth it? I want to hear your argument. Neither of these are leading questions, I want your genuine answers.

[furtiveglance]

I already said Scum!Italiano clears Val and Take, town!Italiano doesn't give great info but when does a town flip give good info?
I was thinking more that scum!abdbla doesn't give much associative info because they have been quieter. Town flips are always bad news.

[CornPuffBuddha]

Ok, fair enough.

I think I'm keeping my vote on adbla. I'd prefer an elim on them to one on Italiano or T02. They're inactive, made a bizarre partner with me and Italiano at one point, generally has unconvincing arguments, and I'm pretty unimpressed by 487. When I think back to who has engaged the least with the game, I come up with abd. My gut read, backed up by my brain read, is that they're the most likely in my D1 lim pool to come up red. So I want to get them out and then see what I think when D2 rolls around.

Also, don't assume anyone not in my lim pool is locktown. Just focusing on the pushes that I think would get us anywhere.

[furtiveglance]

I agree with you, hence me parking on abd for most of day 1. However, BigTerp and Take, as well as abd (obviously) all prefer Italiano. What would be great is if Val/Aspho/Malakittens said who they would prefer out of abd/Italiano to see if we can get the support for abdbla.

[abdbla]

P-edit: this post was bigger than I expected.

Could you elaborate on the line before unvoting me? I'm kinda scratching my head at what you mean. I'm guessing it's some kind of TR on me.

Yeah, I read through your ISO and after thought basically heel-turned my read. I think I was probably "biased" in that the fact that I've only seen you play as scum made me see playstyle similarities as scumplay similarities, so I read you as scum. Disconnecting the slot from the player reads it as more town to me.

Also if I was abdbla I would just put Italiano to E-1, considering no one's gonna hammer until he makes another post anyways. So a little weird there.

More or less worried we we're going to get someone pushing for role-claim.

I just want this day to end honestly. I think with the rather unpleasant turn the game has taken we're not going to get much more productive out of it. I'm also somewhat worried if abdbla flips town we're going to be back to square 1 day 2, most likely with two less town.

When I flip town, who do you think is scum? In the interest of

not

returning to square 1.

Alright, as for Italiano's post about T02

Okay I figured that would happen and that’s why I posted 479.

I find it impossible for anyone to say Take is playing exactly the way he played in 2091.

A few of you have mentioned it and how you’ve seen it to be true, you don’t pressure it though, you go after the person that did. Make it make sense to me.

As per your post 226, you claim that T02 has been acting "emotional and agitated" since the very start. Let's go look at that, because I just don't think it's very true.

The first posts that I think we want to look at, that kicked off the entire thing, are 54, 60, 63, and 72. You could argue that his agitation started at 46, but it reads to me like just pointed questioning. Rather, in those earlier posts, his tone matches 2091 fairly well IMO, looking at 2091 posts like 128 and 144.

77 is annoyed, no doubt.

Then we get to the meat, where T02 starts interacting with Italiano. In 90 he responds to Italiano, who was making a nonsense post because he had misinterpreted a prior post from T02 (post 72) as being directed towards him, explaining the dismissive attitude. Italiano relitigates his point in 94 and surrounding posts, which still doesn't really make sense, because it's misinterpreted, as I said. T02 responds clearly in 98: "I don't understand your thought process. Please explain clearly." I can't detect any annoyance or agitation here, this seems fairly coherent so far.

103 is the tell thing, but I'm not touching that. Suffice to say, it seems to be a heated topic on it's own.

115 is also a fairly clear large post, with it's arguments clearly laid out. "I explained this in an earlier post." "See 77 for what I meant." "I picked you and Corn because you two would've gone to E-2". The only part you can make an argument for is the end, where he calls you out for acting smarter than everyone. Your response is, paraphrased, "I'm not smarter than everyone, but I am smart.". You admit later that you needed to check your ego. I think the call out was fairly justified.

118 & 123 are both tell-posts. I think they're excused, the first one being fairly calm in tone, the second one being couched in a history of me making somewhat similar arguments.

In 128 we start seeing the annoyance, because you didn't answer any of his comments. You go on to actually respond in 129, and I think it's worth diving in to the post minutiae here.

I explained this is my next post. Why are you ignoring that?

I didn't ignore it. It just wasn't relevant to what I was pointing out.

This, I think, speaks to a disconnect between what T02

thinks

the point is, and what the actual point is. I think T02 assumes that with your first post "You should've answered your own post first", he thinks you mean because someone else asked that question earlier, ergo why you linked the earlier question. This only supports the argument that T02 legitimately got annoyed, since if you misunderstand the position of the person you're arguing against, their actions will seem fairly illogical due to that disconnect.

I'm not gonna argue about RVS semantics for a second game in a row. My definition of RVS means we will be in RVS for most of day 1.

Well then you'll be wrong. RVS doesn't have a set time frame. And even if it did what would

you

consider NOT RVS anymore? And then even if you considered it, doesn't mean everyone else does or should.

Here you're lecturing him on what, exactly, RVS means, in the context of a post he made. His definition is, in fact, more important, when considering that RVS was brought up by him. He never did answer what he considered RVS or not RVS, but that's explicit, as the post you're responding to says.

This 77 is what I meant.

Ahh. Duly noted.

Because you would both have been at E-2 if TTTT voted for you and we would have gotten much more information if that happened.

How do you think there would have been much more information? If you can please elaborate on that without using Asphodelus was V/LA.

I think this question is, frankly, asinine. "How do you think there would have been more information? If you can, please elaborate without using the argument for why there would've been more information." The reason is because the person being pressured would have the opportunity to respond. You can't package the question with an assertion that he has to ignore that part.

What does this mean?

In 2091 your tone was pleasant. And you only became frustrated or agitated when it was genuinely warranted. I felt from your first 10 or so posts that you were town and I would have probably said so if I was in that game. This game so far what I get from your tone is agitation, annoyance, and irritation. I haven't seen a reason for this. It's pretty much the same playerlist as last game so it's not like you hate the players. I'm assuming it's because of a change in alignment from last game. Subtle changes in a person's psychology when playing as scum or and then as town is a scientific reality. I think this is what's happening here. I could be wrong, but I don't think I am in this instance.

I'm litigating why I believe this is just wrong.

Honestly, I don't care about the Dunning-Kruger of veterans thinking random meaningless things are actual tells because of their cognitive bias. I'm not gonna take this subject seriously from now on.

Again, they're not random or meaningless. It's also not foolproof, so I would never base my read 100% on it, but I also would not totally disregard because as has already been shown, it does have some bearing statistically. Just because you don't like it or think it's dumb doesn't mean isn't real.

More tell-based questioning...

Its better if you came out clean with your thoughts instead of acting you're smarter than everyone and justifying your stupid questions with "I was just testing you". Don't forget everyone has the same vote you do.

Oh no, I think I'm smart, but not smarter than everyone. This is how I play and like I said I've been playing forum mafia since 2006 so I've literally seen it all and done it all. It's hard not to come off as arrogant or overbearing, but I try my best not to.

I don't think I need to argue why it's natural to get annoyed at someone talking down to others on this level.

He responds in 130, that is to say, immediately. Apart from the first part, where again, there's a disconnect between perceived arguments, and the last, where it's more tell-based arguing, he answers coherently, if slightly annoyed. Understandably so, in my opinion.

He again responds in 133, to you saying "you answered nothing", though he did answer every question except the RVS one. You point to the E-2 Aspho V/LA question in 134, and at that point he gives up, clearly annoyed and agitated, voting for you in 135.

I think at this point, there's clear precedent for why he's angry. At no point during 2091 did people make similar arguments as you did. I don't think your argument that he has been acting different all game "for no reason" holds water.

Rather, I dislike the quoted part because it really just reads to me like attempting to set up a mislim after T02.

Wrong. I’m probably like 90% sure Take is scum and the way you have been positioning yourself around him makes me think you are his partner.

I am not setting up any miselim. We solve Take and then we move from there. I don’t care about Day 2 right now. I’m focusing on Day 1.

The fact that you heavily scumread T02 doesn't make my reading of your post "Wrong." In your post, you set up a narrative of T02 being town, miselim'd, and Corn being scum.

If you are town and you think I am wrongly accusing

you

of being scum, who is the probable partner of Take, you know since you do have him in your limpool.

I actually have no idea what you're saying here.

Anyway, I feel confident in eliminating Italiano, then.
VOTE: ItalianoVD

[Asphodelus]

I agree with you, hence me parking on abd for most of day 1. However, BigTerp and Take, as well as abd (obviously) all prefer Italiano. What would be great is if Val/Aspho/Malakittens said who they would prefer out of abd/Italiano to see if we can get the support for abdbla.

Italiano, personally. But it seems at the moment he's at E-1, so waiting on claim.

I have intent to hammer though.

[CornPuffBuddha]

Guess Italiano is the elim then lol. I'll read through abdblas post shortly.

[ItalianoVD]

Ahh, I didn’t want to claim but I guess it works out now.

I am the Town Tracker.

I know I have a guardian angel in the setup so don’t let Take kill me.