Mini 692: Boost Mafia (Game Over!)

[springlullaby]

::rolls::

Then why should I pay you the respect of acquiescing to your request?

I'll do a general reread of the game next time I visit this thread, I've had enough of it for one day.

[Incognito]

10.) Avoid excessive profanity,

flaming

etc.

Because I suspect either you or me is getting replaced from this game.

I'm here to play

Mafia

not

Flame Wars: The Boost Edition

.

And knowing my basic anatomy, I already know that if I whipped it out, mine would be bigger than yours so I'm not responding to the stuff you write anymore.

[springlullaby]

Man, if you are faking the taking offence thing, and I was right about you, I will hate you forever. Plus, you started it.

Unvote

And you are wrong, I'm town.

[Incognito]

I may have started the cursing ("page fucking 4" or whatever), but you started the personal insults. I never once tried to insult you.

Vote remains for now.

[springlullaby]

Cute. Very cute.

[Incognito]

[springlullaby]

[Raging Rabbit]

I'm read up, which took way too long. Some random queries:

SL - why is incog taking offence a sign of him being town? Are scum less emotionally invested in the game?

Incog - any suspicions other than SL? In particular, what's your read on Crazy?

iLord - why are you guiding SL on how to make a case? Is this some sort of passive support of his attack?
What in my posts made you think I voted sthar for answering questions directed at others rather than the manner in which he responded to this accustation? I restated my reasoning because I was asked to/argued with. Why is this scummy and what would you expect a pro town player to do?

Crazy - any reason for completely ignoring sthar's case on you in your big recap post? Who do you think is scum?

sthar - What's your current opinion on massclaiming?

Skilit - Do you think you've said anything substantial thus far? Who do you think is scum?


Opinions on stuff when I get my answers.

[Crazy]

Crazy - any reason for completely ignoring sthar's case on you in your big recap post? Who do you think is scum?

I might have missed it.

Skillet, SL, you.

[iLord]

Well I didn't say I agreed with the other points. So that would be a strong assumption to make.

You did point out the points you didn't agree with.

So you don't agree with the other points?

iLord - why are you guiding SL on how to make a case? Is this some sort of passive support of his attack?

It's not passive - I wholeheartedly support the Icognito attack. The problem is that I don't agree with a lot of SL's points, and it seems as if the rest of the town does not agree either.

What in my posts made you think I voted sthar for answering questions directed at others rather than the manner in which he responded to this accustation? I restated my reasoning because I was asked to/argued with. Why is this scummy and what would you expect a pro town player to do?

If you're talking about his reaction, then I ask you: Why would a scum player react differently than a town player to an action that is not indictive of alignment.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Incognito and SL need to calm down. I don't mean this in a condescending way, but Incognito needs to stop goading SL, and SL needs to loosen his emotional attachment to this game.

[Incognito]

Incog - any suspicions other than SL? In particular, what's your read on Crazy?

Yes, actually. I should note that I don't normally do lists so don't expect one from me in this particular game either, but I've been questioning iLord about some of the points he's raised in his 138 because I can't shake the feeling that some of his reads look contrived. In particular, I can't see how he could freely admit that a lot of the points raised in springlullaby's case against me were weak and mention that I defended myself well against her case (which, keep in mind, consisted of what he freely admitted to being weak points) but how I could still come out looking scummier than her in our exchange. From my experience, scum have a tendency to try and push weak cases against people in an effort to get them lynched but yet for some reason, iLord sees this as something particularly pro-town coming from springlullaby.

In direct contrast, in his read of you, he mentions something about you "still pushing.. and pushing.. and pushing", which I'm assuming is referring to what he feels to be a weak point being pushed by you repeatedly, but somehow comes to the conclusion that you're the scummiest player in the game at this moment because of that? I don't understand the double standard that he's applying here; i.e. why is it scummy for one player (RagingRabbit) to push what iLord considers to be a weak point against a particular player but not scummy for another player (springlullaby) to push multiple weak points against another player? Why is that "tell" that he's using not being used consistently in his own analysis?

I've also covered a few other things about his read of fuzzylightning to which he and I had been going back and forth about, and I still happen to disagree with the point he's been trying to make about that as well.

The other thing that bothers me about his 138 is how clearly defined his ordering is from towniest to scummiest. I can state right now that there's at least 4 players in this game (RagingRabbit, TDC, Jahudo, and Crazy) who I still feel like I have absolutely no preliminary reads on. In fact, in his analysis of Crazy he mentions nothing positive about him at all (just a short one-liner) but somehow he's placed as number 6 on his list (and this was even before Crazy provided his large player by player analysis). I also don't really like how he seems to almost be coaching springlullaby on how to attack me.

As for Crazy, as I mentioned above, I don't really have a read on him yet. I'd need to see him become more involved during real time to get a more solid feel for his alignment.

Incognito and SL need to calm down. I don't mean this in a condescending way, but Incognito needs to stop goading SL, and SL needs to loosen his emotional attachment to this game.

Where have I goaded springlullaby?

[Incognito]

Oh and FTR, springlullaby is a girl. I should use Ether theory on this one, heh.

[Raging Rabbit]

I might have missed it.

That's odd. Well now that you see it, what do you make of it?

It's not passive - I wholeheartedly support the Icognito attack. The problem is that I don't agree with a lot of SL's points, and it seems as if the rest of the town does not agree either.

If you wholeheartedly support it, why not attack Incogito yourself rather than sit in the sidelines and goad SL on? I mean, according to you he's obviously not doing it right...

If you're talking about his reaction, then I ask you: Why would a scum player react differently than a town player to an action that is not indictive of alignment.

Incogito called it a scumtell and voted him based on it, sthar's exaggarated response is imo an implication of guilt. I've said this before more than once, dunno why you voted for me without even trying to figure out what I was actually saying.

Incogito makes a fair point.

[Crazy]

'Kay, I'll respond to it if you like.

I don't see any waffling that would be indicative of a partner deciding to bus, but Crazy's poorly justified and lately applied vote highlights his other behavior, which is a shining beacon of scumminess.

In his first substantial post, Crazy notes his own inactivity and blames it on a lack of interest in the game so far, which is a weak indicator of scum in my experience so far, since early day 1 is about as boring for scum as you can get. They have no major objective other than avoiding attention and getting closer to night, and since they have no need to create any serious content, their boredom often manifests as indifference and apathy to whatever is going on.

He continues on to express suspicion of four other players, without providing any reasoning on two of them. I cannot think of any reason for both variety and inconsistancy unless he's just looking for an easy wagon. Note that Crazy's vote does go to the wagon that is the largest at this point.

He then encourages us not to worry about boosting scum, expresses unsupported suspicions of two apparently unconnected players, and buddies up to eldarad before signing off.

Was there anything protown about that post?

Yeah, I was bored with the game.

If I want to vote somebody, I'll provide reasons why. I didn't have a strong case on either TDC nor RR, but I figured nothing could go wrong by saying that my gut spoke out against them. Obviously, if I voted for them later on I'd provide reasoning.

I didn't say don't worry about boosting scum. We

do

want to boost town, but I can't imagine that scum will go all out just to get boosted.

Pff, buddying up, yeah. I just said that I agreed with what he said, not that he was massively townie or anything. Don't you ever agree with people?

[iLord]

sadf

Yes, actually. I should note that I don't normally do lists so don't expect one from me in this particular game either, but I've been questioning iLord about some of the points he's raised in his 138 because I can't shake the feeling that some of his reads look contrived. In particular, I can't see how he could freely admit that a lot of the points raised in springlullaby's case against me were weak and mention that I defended myself well against her case (which, keep in mind, consisted of what he freely admitted to being weak points) but how I could still come out looking scummier than her in our exchange. From my experience, scum have a tendency to try and push weak cases against people in an effort to get them lynched but yet for some reason, iLord sees this as something particularly pro-town coming from springlullaby.

First of all, like I have said, weak points don't weaken the good points. You're scummy because of those good points.

Second of all, just read some of SL's recent posts after she started getting mad. Look at them and honestly tell me that those are coming from a scum mouth.

In direct contrast, in his read of you, he mentions something about you "still pushing.. and pushing.. and pushing", which I'm assuming is referring to what he feels to be a weak point being pushed by you repeatedly, but somehow comes to the conclusion that you're the scummiest player in the game at this moment because of that? I don't understand the double standard that he's applying here; i.e. why is it scummy for one player (RagingRabbit) to push what iLord considers to be a weak point against a particular player but not scummy for another player (springlullaby) to push multiple weak points against another player? Why is that "tell" that he's using not being used consistently in his own analysis?

Mafia is not a game judged by absolutes and too many players are drawn astray by supposed "set or universal scumtells." I look at each situation and determine it based on the details specific to each.

RR is pushing weak point consisitently. That is his only point. SL has several weak points, but two good points. And reading his posts gives off a giant town vibe - honestly, just read over it yourself.

It doesn't matter if you can't see how he could attack you for it - it doesn't matter if you can't see his perspective.

What does matter is whether town or scum would say the things he says in the way that he does.

The other thing that bothers me about his 138 is how clearly defined his ordering is from towniest to scummiest. I can state right now that there's at least 4 players in this game (RagingRabbit, TDC, Jahudo, and Crazy) who I still feel like I have absolutely no preliminary reads on. In fact, in his analysis of Crazy he mentions nothing positive about him at all (just a short one-liner) but somehow he's placed as number 6 on his list (and this was even before Crazy provided his large player by player analysis). I also don't really like how he seems to almost be coaching springlullaby on how to attack me.

6 is almost right in the middle, by the way...

But either way, you misunderstood the rigidness of the list. Other than the blue and red names, the ones in the middle are all pretty close.

Where have I goaded springlullaby?

You haven't as much goaded him as showing no apparent signs of pacifiying him. You're obviously a lot less emotionally involved, and so you must walk the higher ground.

If you wholeheartedly support it, why not attack Incogito yourself rather than sit in the sidelines and goad SL on? I mean, according to you he's obviously not doing it right...

Why have two cases against Incognito at the same time with the same points, albeit one with a little less than the other?

It would be like SL saying Incognito is scummy for A, B, C, D, and E, and then me making my own case saying that Incognito is scummy for A and E.

Incogito called it a scumtell and voted him based on it, sthar's exaggarated response is imo an implication of guilt. I've said this before more than once, dunno why you voted for me without even trying to figure out what I was actually saying.

Guilt? Are you attacking him for guilt? What's wrong with feeling guilty if you do something antitown?

Incogito makes a fair point.

"a"? Which one?

[iLord]

I just had a crazy idea that I might know the reason why sthar8 wanted a mass claim.

[Elmo]

My opinion:

Fuck you

, if you are town you are required to be pro-active.

This is a little heavy-handed. We're playing a game, here.

[TDC]

I just had a crazy idea that I might know the reason why sthar8 wanted a mass claim.

And.. would it be a good idea if you're right?

[Jahudo]

My current feelings: Electra, iLord look town; eldarad, incog and spring I feel gut town; skillet, TDC and sthar are neutral; RR and crazy getting slight scum. I don't have a read on fuzzy.

@Electra: Can you explain how you think the exchanges could “go either way”? Does that mean that either side could show to be scummy through the exchanges, but you aren’t convinced yet?

I’m having a hard time finding particular flaws in defenses or attacks – I feel like a lot of the exchanges (the main ones I think are sthar/RR, springlullaby/incognito, and a few people/skillet) could go either way.

@Skillit: Where are you and what were you planning to write at the end of your last post one week ago:

I'm not done here, I will be back in around 3 hrs,

@Raging Rabbit:
Was sathr8’s apology affected any by what he had said earlier about hating when people answer for others? Would an apology like the one he presented be perceived differently if he was more ambivalent to this more code?

So you see how by turning this into an issue of a townie who accidentially "violated a moral code" you show both how important you consider this misstep to be and how very commited to your debt as a pro town player you are for taking this so seriously and promising not to do it again.

@iLord: RR appears like he’s got a strong read on sthar.

RR is pushing weak point consisitently. That is his only point. SL has several weak points, but two good points. And reading his posts gives off a giant town vibe - honestly, just read over it yourself.

Was your latest post contrived from thinking about sthar’s alignment and is there anything from the game that you can point to and then point to the claim?

I just had a crazy idea that I might know the reason why sthar8 wanted a mass claim.

@springlullaby: This is what you said about Crazy.

Skillit, I don't care about the joke. I want to know why you made an attack on Electra in #21 and later you said that whole thing was just for clarification, and you didn't mean to provide any slant on Electra. (#44)

FOS Crazy, I don't like this. But I'll let Skillit answer fist before saying why.

Can you elaborate now?

@sthar8: I could ask this to a bunch of people including myself, but you have stated you find Electra most town. What have you thought about Electra’s posting since we’ve gotten off the subject of her claim and the boosting? How has she contributed since then?

[iLord]

asdfasdf

And.. would it be a good idea if you're right?

Maybe, it depends on how stupid the Mafia are.

My current feelings: Electra, iLord look town; eldarad, incog and spring I feel gut town; skillet, TDC and sthar are neutral; RR and crazy getting slight scum. I don't have a read on fuzzy.

Please explain the difference between neutral and no read.

Was your latest post contrived from thinking about sthar’s alignment and is there anything from the game that you can point to and then point to the claim?

No, it has nothing to do with sthar8's alignment. Yes, it has to do with what sthar8 said in thread.

[Electra]

@ iLord- really? What noob tells, praytell? :p Also I'd like to hear more about this reasoning for a mass claim. At your discretion, of course.

@ Crazy - I'm not sure if this is what you meant, but I only said that I hope I would get investigations, not that I know for sure.

@ Jahudo - pretty much. I find their arguments against each other to be fairly weak tells, and they could be scum or town, it doesn't really tell me anything. I guess if anything, I'd read them both as ever so slightly town due to the level of anger in their exchange.

Anyway, I've been saying that Crazy has been very textbook scummy, and he hasn't really done anything to alleviate my suspicions, so

unvote

, if I have not, and

vote: Crazy

. Especially because he ignored sthar's post for a while, and his response is weird to me. He says that scum wouldn't go all out to be boosted, and I don't think that they would do something like I did, but I do think that "going all out" is not what is going to lead to being boosted. The goodest little townie is going to get boosted, and scum can certainly try to look like that.

[iLord]

@ iLord- really? What noob tells, praytell? :p Also I'd like to hear more about this reasoning for a mass claim. At your discretion, of course.

Mostly on the common newb "I'm not getting a lot of reads from these arguments" if I recall correclty, I'll take another look at the post later.

I'm not seeing you guy's read on Crazy.

[sthar8]

Working on a post, ran out of time at work. I'll try to get it up after beer and pizza.

[Jahudo]

Please explain the difference between neutral and no read.

In the cases of the neutral reads, I've seen a mostly defensive skillet that hasn't been scum hunting enough, a TDC that isn't being very open with his opinions or train of thought, and a sthar that might have exaggerated suspicion on him so he's gone defensive too.

The difference with fuzzy is I keep forgetting how he's been involved in topics and I have to look at his posts separately. Several times I think he's just come after the topic has been discussed and he adds the same info, like in the case of Electra's claim, skillit's attack. So it will probably take more time to see how he's playing.

[fuzzylightning]

Lack of computer is getting on my nerves, expect a post tomorrow