Mafia Invictus Redux [Game Over]

[Malakittens]

Kovu, I think if you are going to continue to push RR here, you should explain why you are discounting what Mala said in 1252 and 1276.

That is sufficient for me to treat both those slots as town, at least for the day.

tbh andante doesn't trust me as much as she should. I'm really not even sure if she read these posts at all.

I'm however townbinning you currently because of our last recent game where you doubled down on a soft.

[VP Baltar]

What do you make of cakez and dwlee? Also, are you reading the game? Bell is confirmed town.

[Malakittens]

Uh, how about you read my post before you be snippy. I wrote Bell was confirmed town.

I don't know how I feel on either of those two slots.

Both of them are very hard players for me to read. Esp Dwlee. Dwlee is more often active as town rather than scum & as for Cakez. I tend to be able to nail a scum!Cakez or town!cakez down later game.

[Enchant]

I think Dwlee99!scum are possibility.

[Meuh]

Luke town
Datisi town

Marci town

Kovu town
Fey ?town

I’m going to bed

I’ll explain further d2

R&R is the one who never voted besides me, however, they are town.
Kovu is town imo.

I’m ok with a Luke & Marci town.

I really do need to reevaluate though and do a good reread, but that will be tomorrow most likely.

NGL:

I am liking the following for town while I'm reading up. I'm on the bottom of P52.

Val feels town; Dun feels town; Kovu feels town; Luke feels town; Fey feels town; R&R feels town.

I'm not vibing at all with Meuh or Marci's posts. In fact, I feel like Meuh is worse.

Fire feels slightly towny, but I also am in disagreement with his crap case on me considering he finished a game with me where I was on the lower post count similar to here.

I don't really know what to make of Bell.

I didn't like the tone of VPB esp when he was talking to Meuh. It just felt off. Like majority.

Bell is confirmed town.

VOTE: meuh

Good place to start right now.

Uhhhh… what happened to that Marci read?

Also those 6 townreads you just sent are the same ones you had yesterday which you never elaborated on, + Val/Dunn. What changed with those 2? and can you elaborate on some of those reads?

[Enchant]

VOTE: Gammagooey

Te

[Malakittens]

I didn't like Marci's posting so far today. It's a ping, but I feel like it's a forced tone. So my read on her just incredibly dropped.

I have elaborated a few times in the past re: my read on Luke & Kovu. I liked Luke's case on marci. I liked how Luke tried to sort that slot out and how he went about it and then after interactions his reads changed. I don't think that fits with a mafia agenda.

as for Kovu: with knowing it's andante her personality with being town is like a passionate tango dance with some spontaneous outbursts that sometimes don't make sense. She is coming off like that vibe.

As for Datisi: I don't exactly remember what pinged him town for me, but something did catch my eye as I was reading and I felt like he was different than his last scum game. I mean it's a moot point now, but w/e

Fey: She just feels ~town~.

As far as my Val townread: see my last post for why I feel he's town vibes.

Dunn: Dunn's posts are gut-town pinging me esp when he was interacting with some ppl.

[Val89]

tbh andante doesn't trust me as much as she should. I'm really not even sure if she read these posts at all.

She doesn't explicitly say so, but I am hoping her "I changed my mind" directly after my 1357 is indicative she understands what's what; but I think there has been enough discussion in thread that all of it can't have escaped the notice of scum, but it does appear to have flown bell by, so I'll spell it out:

Mala appears to be heavily softing some sort of clear on RR to me.

Just as I don't see how a scum!bell and scum!VP could intend to ride a fake N1 FN claim all the way to endgame, I would not expect scum!Mala to do that today, with minimal pressure on her slot, and if if she were scum, she would not chose to tie herself to a scum buddy in such a way. Ergo, unless I am completely wrong about that being a soft, in which case I expect Mala to correct me immediately, RR is as conftown as Bell is, and Mala isn't far behind.

[Val89]

I also feel very comfortable with my townread on Lukewarm. I'm treating Kovu as town for reasons previously discussed. I still think Marci is more likely town than not.

I don't pretend to be able to read enchant particularly well, but their votes and other content we have has all made at least sense to me, neither am I detecting any difference between enchant here and town!enchant in the games I have seen. I have some sympathy for the argument that enchant will be a difficult sort and we might need to consider dealing with it sooner or later, but I think they deserve more of a chance for something else to happen to make that alignment more clear, and I'm not interested in a vote there today.

I want people to actually start reading my posts, so I will give justification elsewhere, but I wouldn't vote Dunn today either. I could probably be convinced to join a wagon on anyone else not mentioned, but my strong preference is for SirCakez, as indicated by my vote.

[Meuh]

Tbh I trust townies to out whatever information they have that would be pro-town to out. I'm not particularly interested in speculation about PRs because at best we derail the conversation from scumreading, and at worst we force people to out info that they shouldn't.
Unless there's a real advantage to discussing it (like with Lukewarm), that's not really something I want to delve into.

[Meuh]

Bell's role is kind of surprising, the ability for a player to conf-town themselves in this setup is really overpowering given the invictus mechanic. Still, I don't think it's particularly likely to be a scum gambit.

Also this might be tunnel vision but this paragraph from Gorilla's stuck to me. Scum view the game as more townsided than it is and town view it as more scumsided than it is. I think this might just be a slip of a scum mentality.
What townie reacts to Bell's claim with saying it's overpowered? It irks me

[Val89]

Tbh I trust townies to out whatever information they have that would be pro-town to out. I'm not particularly interested in speculation about PRs because at best we derail the conversation from scumreading, and at worst we force people to out info that they shouldn't.
Unless there's a real advantage to discussing it (like with Lukewarm), that's not really something I want to delve into.

If you are talking about Mala, it's my view that it was so heavily implied it essentially is outed, and making sure everyone is explicitly aware of it, or else having my perception (which I suspect may well be shared by others) corrected if it is faulty; does assist in scum hunting by narrowing our PoE, particularly when I see bell voting Mala.

What exactly are you taking issue with here?

[Meuh]

Tbh I trust townies to out whatever information they have that would be pro-town to out. I'm not particularly interested in speculation about PRs because at best we derail the conversation from scumreading, and at worst we force people to out info that they shouldn't.
Unless there's a real advantage to discussing it (like with Lukewarm), that's not really something I want to delve into.

If you are talking about Mala, it's my view that it was so heavily implied it essentially is outed, and making sure everyone is explicitly aware of it, or else having my perception (which I suspect may well be shared by others) corrected if it is faulty; does assist in scum hunting by narrowing our PoE, particularly when I see bell voting Mala.

What exactly are you taking issue with here?

Meh, I guess Mala's said enough to be effectively out.

u dont know what happens if u and ur target are twinning right?

i yhink the checking for a lie plan would be most useful in that case ( :

why was datisi town... i really thought he was scum i feel so useless maybe i shouldnt be so one minded

VOTE: val89

Do you scumread Dwlee?

Where is Bell's "role confirmation"?

I received a message from the mod overnight confirming Bell. He is clearly a friendly neighbor. (Answer's Luke's request as well)

It's more stuff like this. While neither example I think will do bad, I think if more people prod in those ways; we could get those "info that shouldn't have outed but has been" situations. I'm a bit scared of that.

[VP Baltar]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: cakez

[gorilla]

Bell's role is kind of surprising, the ability for a player to conf-town themselves in this setup is really overpowering given the invictus mechanic. Still, I don't think it's particularly likely to be a scum gambit.

Also this might be tunnel vision but this paragraph from Gorilla's stuck to me. Scum view the game as more townsided than it is and town view it as more scumsided than it is. I think this might just be a slip of a scum mentality.
What townie reacts to Bell's claim with saying it's overpowered? It irks me

Not really. It takes just a little bit of thinking about the setup.

As it stands, we're at 17 alive. Every cycle, we get a day elimination and an invictus kill. The mafia get a nightkill. We go through this 5 times and we're left with 2 alive, and at that point either we've killed all the mafia and won or we've lost. That means we get a whopping 10 kills to get things right. In a regular game you'd get 8 - while that doesn't seem like a

huge

difference I think the extra kills are a pretty big deal.

(This, of course, is not taking into account the possibility that mafia have any sort of roles that can affect invictus kills. That's entirely possible and would balance things out but any speculation about such a mechanic would be a wild guess at this point. I'm hoping there's nothing too outrageous).

So at this point, we really just need to settle on the names of seven players as being the most town and kill everyone else. Bell as (presumably) conf-town is a big step toward that goal, and is unequivocally a good thing. Make no mistake: I am happy about this! That is the reason I have mainly been thinking about who I most trust as town this phase.


Anyway, a lot has happened, I'm catching up now.

[Dunnstral]

Mala appears to be heavily softing some sort of clear on RR to me.

I noticed this too

Wasn't sure if Bell missed it or didn't believe it

[Dunnstral]

So at this point, we really just need to settle on the names of seven players as being the most town and kill everyone else.

This doesn't sit right with me. Have you ever played in a game that went like this?

[Dunnstral]

Actually 1464 is a very weird post if you focus on it.

gorilla explains that we will eliminate during the day and then mafia will kill somebody at night, and also the invictus.

I'm not sure how that relates to what they are responding to, which is itself a response to gorilla originally saying that bell's friendly neighbor role was "overpowering" in this setup. What I'm getting at is, what's their point? How does them "explaining the setup" relate to what they said about Bell's role or to what meuh is saying.

And they end it off with what appears to be saying to figure out the seven townies players now, which doesn't make sense. And yeah Bell's role being friendly neighbor helps us but presumably they can just be killed so I do think Meuh has a point and that this stance that Bell's role is overpowering isn't a logical one.

[Bell]

Missed it. I got that they were softing, but not more than that.

UNVOTE:

[Rhyme and Reason]

S_S and I are working on our reads in PT so that we don't have too much dissonance in thread, we'll post to here once it's done

for now I think we're both chill with gorilla wagon

~Rhyme

[gorilla]

I think enchant is relatively likely to be town based on a few things he's said

Can I get you to cite your work here, please.

Actually taking the time to read this properly and find this bit addressed to me: I think the thinking about the invictus mechanic in 313 is more likely to come from a town-aligned player, the sequence in 439/443 asking about bell's PR and softclaiming strikes me as wanting to know about bell's role in case he needs to counterclaim it. In general it does

feel

like Enchant is legitimately trying to make reads rather than just coasting along doing nothing, but that's a very gut feel assessment of his posting.


And this is all in sum to still say: I am not clearing Enchant. I think he should

always

die before endgame, because even if he's town his existence in the game is an immense liability. I would not put him among my top townreads. So I'm not terribly interested in getting into a lenthy debate over his alignment.

[Rhyme and Reason]

I'll consider limming enchant the day before endgame but not a moment before

~Rhyme

[Meuh]

Bell's role is kind of surprising, the ability for a player to conf-town themselves in this setup is really overpowering given the invictus mechanic. Still, I don't think it's particularly likely to be a scum gambit.

Also this might be tunnel vision but this paragraph from Gorilla's stuck to me. Scum view the game as more townsided than it is and town view it as more scumsided than it is. I think this might just be a slip of a scum mentality.
What townie reacts to Bell's claim with saying it's overpowered? It irks me

Not really. It takes just a little bit of thinking about the setup.

As it stands, we're at 17 alive. Every cycle, we get a day elimination and an invictus kill. The mafia get a nightkill. We go through this 5 times and we're left with 2 alive, and at that point either we've killed all the mafia and won or we've lost. That means we get a whopping 10 kills to get things right. In a regular game you'd get 8 - while that doesn't seem like a

huge

difference I think the extra kills are a pretty big deal.

(This, of course, is not taking into account the possibility that mafia have any sort of roles that can affect invictus kills. That's entirely possible and would balance things out but any speculation about such a mechanic would be a wild guess at this point. I'm hoping there's nothing too outrageous).

So at this point, we really just need to settle on the names of seven players as being the most town and kill everyone else. Bell as (presumably) conf-town is a big step toward that goal, and is unequivocally a good thing. Make no mistake: I am happy about this! That is the reason I have mainly been thinking about who I most trust as town this phase.


Anyway, a lot has happened, I'm catching up now.

I genuinely have not thought much about the setup. My focus has never really been there.

I guess that makes a bit more sense?
Though you specifically reacting to a pro-town role being revealed by calling it "overpowered" still irks me. That sort of perspective was what bothered me more.

~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=

I'm kinda curious, I wonder if there'd be merit in the idea of all of us always targeting the same person? Like a group decision would be less likely to be correct than an individual decision, because scum get a say in it. However, scum can deliberately pick people who won't Invictus them to kill and manipulate kills in that way. If we pick together, they're unable to do it. It'd be like a second lim in a way.
The pros of group decision probably don't outweigh the cons? Coordinating it sounds like hell, and Independent shots from townies is a powerful thing for us to have. But I'm kinda curious if it has any merits (past the mechanical benefit for Lukewarm's role).

[gorilla]

So at this point, we really just need to settle on the names of seven players as being the most town and kill everyone else.

This doesn't sit right with me. Have you ever played in a game that went like this?

Actually 1464 is a very weird post if you focus on it.

gorilla explains that we will eliminate during the day and then mafia will kill somebody at night, and also the invictus.

I'm not sure how that relates to what they are responding to, which is itself a response to gorilla originally saying that bell's friendly neighbor role was "overpowering" in this setup. What I'm getting at is, what's their point? How does them "explaining the setup" relate to what they said about Bell's role or to what meuh is saying.

And they end it off with what appears to be saying to figure out the seven townies players now, which doesn't make sense. And yeah Bell's role being friendly neighbor helps us but presumably they can just be killed so I do think Meuh has a point and that this stance that Bell's role is overpowering isn't a logical one.

I think it's a pretty obvious and easy explanation of the mindset behind why I was saying those things.

Frankly, I think you're panicking that I've called you out and am laying out an unambiguously pro-town strategy.

Here's the thing: I absolutely don't care if I'm one of seven most townread players in the game. I don't care if I live to endgame, and in fact I'd welcome dying before then, because I'm finding it a bit tedious (and this was prior to me becoming a wagon, before you try to get snarky). I have absolutely no fear of dying this game. Can you say the same?

[gorilla]

S_S and I are working on our reads in PT so that we don't have too much dissonance in thread, we'll post to here once it's done

for now I think we're both chill with gorilla wagon

~Rhyme

...because?