Mafia Invictus Redux [Game Over]

[Enchant]

@enchant.

Why are you voting for dwlee?

Can't remember but why not

[Malakittens]

Solid reason 10/10

[Enchant]

Thanks

[Lukewarm]

Solid reason 10/10

I could kill Mala here

[Val89]

I could kill Mala here

I'm not interested in that today. I understand you have expressed the notion that you think the softing is a potential bluff at 1489; and I do think there is something in the idea that there are a few too many potential clears knocking around, but I don't think today is the day to be charging about forcing that, when the target of that bluff, from your point of view, had this to say:

I also saw the Mala softs fwiw, I think it's to town's advantage to not have her clarify unless we receive significant pressure (or she does). You don't have to assume we're clear, but you should consider that it's a possibility.

Ask me again tomorrow, I might feel differently, but I won't support a wagon on Mala (or RR) today.

[gorilla]

How about specifically 1365 and 1727

I will give these a read in depth again tomorrow.

@gorilla - idk, seems like a desperation move to me

I literally just described it as "desperate". That is not a compelling rebuttal. Town get desperate too. It just comes across differently depending on alignment. What's the move here as scum? To convince people to vote you using a case that is likely to be viewed as reachy? To get people like me to see it as towny? I feel like normally scum trying to wriggle out of the elim go for a more straightforawrd defense. To me anyway the wild finger pointing is a lot more consistent with how town getting pushed to the brink act.

[gorilla]

There were a few things that I liked.

Starting with his reads list. His town reads are: Me, fire, val and kovu. With town leaning on Baltar, Meuh and Marci.

For the most part, that is my basic grasp on the game. Feels like we are reading the same game (or like I said, he could be designing himself to mirror my reads in particular)

I also, in particular liked the things that he called out for town reading me. They were not the easy out in reference to my claim. They were not even the big cases that I wrote day 1. Both would be easy things to throw in and call me a town read of me. They were 1606 and 1106. Those are not easy, stand out things to remember when trying to bs a town read on me. But, I can totally see why he would town read me for them, and it makes me feel like he is really reading my posts to come to that read.

Then I like the Val town read. I have also started town reading Val (actually not sure I have actually expressed that in thread before now) so seeing it there gives me good feelies.

And I also really liked the reach out to twin with me if I needed him to. And when I saw it, I could see where town Dunn would come to the decision to make that offer since it is true that he would not be a night kill risk.

It was just a bunch of things back to back that I liked.

Having agreeable town reads means almost essentially nothing. Scum know who is town and can fake believable townreads. It is not very hard. The idea that scum are somehow incapable of reading your posts to fake a read on you is baffling. It strikes me as terribly convenient in terms of how he's handling you.

Again, agreeing with you on a singular townread is an actively

terrible

reason to be townreading someone. Agreeing on that one read means almost nothing

I don't remotely see how you, as town, cannot be paranoid he's buddying up to you here. None of this is a remotely compelling defense.

[gorilla]

This, of course, mostly reinforces the notion that Luke is Dunn's teammate here because the reasoning seems actively motivated at this point. Less like he's honestly evaluating Dunnstral and more like he's trying to find reasons for him being town.

[Bell]

It would probably be more mealy mouthed I think.

[Bell]

I’m noticing that the way dwlee is wording stuff seems to be intentionally avoiding the assertion of their reality as town in their grammar and sentence structure and furthermore

[Bell]

Also to be honest, I just realized that marci is a survivor playing survivor in a mafia game and we should probably just kill that even though from a meta perspective I shouldn’t.

[Bell]

The only thing that makes me want to let fey live is that they keep coming back to what they say is at the heart of their town game: “why can’t you recognize me, for me?”

But otherwise very meh, please find scum.

[Bell]

Would find it sort of unlikely though this is dumb, that mala fake claims a clear on a partner. It relies on two people playing a role well.
So far R&R are playing that role well but Mala isn’t.

[Bell]

I’m still gut tunneled on Baltar.

Sorry.

[Meuh]

Except I'm gonna flip town and regardless of my alignment you'll go "woops guess dwlee should have been townier" and we are just wasting a day phase

I don't think that is how I play as town at all. If I fuck up, I tend to just own my mistakes.

I will spend some time tomorrow giving you and Dunn another read because I'm not gonna be an asshole who just dismisses you here. But fair warning, I've been reading the game fairly closely even as I've been pretty busy the last couple days, and I haven't found your responses to pressure very persuasive.

Fwiw I unironically really dislike this post, verbal tic aside
Not sure I see why VPB would be a better lim than Dwlee or Dun, though
Guess that's what makes it a gut tunnel

[VP Baltar]

What's the move here as scum? To convince people to vote you using a case that is likely to be viewed as reachy? To get people like me to see it as towny?

I think, as scum, it is a two fold benefit. It gives the appearance of scum hunting (they are still pushing this as valid, mind you), and if there I'd any merit to what they are saying it shades me as potentially having ulterior motives to push dwlee. They said they think I might be more scummy than Meuh after all!

Town can act desperately, you're right. However, is that desperation being made in good faith is the question. Dwlee is a very smart person, so I am going to treat my assessments with that in mind. I have a hard time believing they think scum broadly are more likely to use particular words than town. They are using a mathblade example (which I'm skeptical is even true) as an indictment on me. It's lazy and convenient. The same thing happened when dwlee attacked dunn using cakez' argument and then said 'whoopsie, that's not true'.

It's street fight logic: use any weapon you have. The problem is that dwlee isn't even checking what they are saying first to see if it is accurate. That's where my problem is.

[VP Baltar]

I’m still gut tunneled on Baltar.

Sorry.

I just hope you are better at using an invictus shot than you are at playing confirmed town.

[gorilla]

What's the move here as scum? To convince people to vote you using a case that is likely to be viewed as reachy? To get people like me to see it as towny?

I think, as scum, it is a two fold benefit. It gives the appearance of scum hunting (they are still pushing this as valid, mind you), and if there I'd any merit to what they are saying it shades me as potentially having ulterior motives to push dwlee. They said they think I might be more scummy than Meuh after all!

Town can act desperately, you're right. However, is that desperation being made in good faith is the question. Dwlee is a very smart person, so I am going to treat my assessments with that in mind. I have a hard time believing they think scum broadly are more likely to use particular words than town. They are using a mathblade example (which I'm skeptical is even true) as an indictment on me. It's lazy and convenient. The same thing happened when dwlee attacked dunn using cakez' argument and then said 'whoopsie, that's not true'.

It's street fight logic: use any weapon you have. The problem is that dwlee isn't even checking what they are saying first to see if it is accurate. That's where my problem is.

Meh. I suppose we'll see one way or the other soon enough.

[Kovu]

Luke, I'm confused why you're suddenly all "I want cakez now" "I want Mala" like, I feel like a lot of focus has gone into Dunn/Dwlee, and like especially mala now, we've all established we're leaving mala alone till d3, then if she continues doing nothing, she's main focus, literally aready established. End of day is close, you don't have thoughts on Dunn/Dwlee? or do you think they're both town?

[gorilla]

Luke, I'm confused why you're suddenly all "I want cakez now" "I want Mala" like, I feel like a lot of focus has gone into Dunn/Dwlee, and like especially mala now, we've all established we're leaving mala alone till d3, then if she continues doing nothing, she's main focus, literally aready established. End of day is close, you don't have thoughts on Dunn/Dwlee? or do you think they're both town?

Dunn isn't even really a wagon anymore and I just quoted his (bad) defense of Dunn. He's basically made no comment on dwlee save to mention he could kill them today with no further elaboration as to why. Hasn't really given a meaningful read on dwlee at any point this game.

[gorilla]

I could be misreading Dunnstral at this point for all I know, I think Luke's play is very scummy regardless of Dunn's alignment at this point. He doesn't look to be believably sorting anyone.

[Kovu]

Ok woah, just found a VC, I deefinitely thought Dunn and Dwlee wer top wagons, lol this would explain why Dwlee has just resported to calling all votes on them bad.. the dunn wagon died, and dwlee was just picking next best wagon,

I definitely agree with Luke not looking great, I thought his day 1 was fine, but nothing about d2 seems good... he feels like he's falling apart lol

umm gorilla, you said Luke's role was a scum role in the first version of this, what happened if that role picked the same invictus target as someone?

[Bell]

I’m still gut tunneled on Baltar.

Sorry.

I just hope you are better at using an invictus shot than you are at playing confirmed town.

Even if I had time and spent hours pouring over every page this still wouldn’t be the case.
My lack of activity is just due to my job and accumulated fatigue. School year’s almost over.

[gorilla]

Ok woah, just found a VC, I deefinitely thought Dunn and Dwlee wer top wagons, lol this would explain why Dwlee has just resported to calling all votes on them bad.. the dunn wagon died, and dwlee was just picking next best wagon,

I definitely agree with Luke not looking great, I thought his day 1 was fine, but nothing about d2 seems good... he feels like he's falling apart lol

umm gorilla, you said Luke's role was a scum role in the first version of this, what happened if that role picked the same invictus target as someone?

To be clear: The role in the original game was a role that supposedly "broke the rules" of what was possible in the setup. It was in fact a red herring that did nothing.

There is no guarantee in particular that the one role in this game that could be non-standard is the same exact role, or the same exact alignment. I don't much doubt he's being truthful in his claim that his role does something but significantly doubt it is a town-aligned power, particular in concert with how he is playing this game.

[Bell]

My primary confusion with this statement is why claim and lodge yourself into a role before you really need to.
Now if you get caught doing something you shouldn’t you have to explain yourself.