Mafia Invictus Redux [Game Over]

[Bell]

By the way Baltar how did you make up your claim last game anyway? It was well constructed.

[VP Baltar]

There is no guarantee in particular that the one role in this game that could be non-standard is the same exact role, or the same exact alignment. I don't much doubt he's being truthful in his claim that his role does something but significantly doubt it is a town-aligned power, particular in concert with how he is playing this game.

Did you respond or note to me pointing out cakez trying to quick clear Luke on this point? I found that very suss, and possibly linking of their alignments.

I do think Luke's role could easily be scum aligned, and he was trying to get a super power. Speaking of the doctor-nerfing aspects, could be scum need to guess a town invictus target like that to gain invictus protection abilities. Would be a decent risk-reward mechanic to build in. /wildassspeculation

[Lukewarm]

I could kill Mala here

I'm not interested in that today. I understand you have expressed the notion that you think the softing is a potential bluff at 1489; and I do think there is something in the idea that there are a few too many potential clears knocking around, but I don't think today is the day to be charging about forcing that, when the target of that bluff, from your point of view, had this to say:

I also saw the Mala softs fwiw, I think it's to town's advantage to not have her clarify unless we receive significant pressure (or she does). You don't have to assume we're clear, but you should consider that it's a possibility.

Ask me again tomorrow, I might feel differently, but I won't support a wagon on Mala (or RR) today.

Yeah. I know that it is not happening - and I am not voting. That was more of a statement of my read

There were a few things that I liked.

Starting with his reads list. His town reads are: Me, fire, val and kovu. With town leaning on Baltar, Meuh and Marci.

For the most part, that is my basic grasp on the game. Feels like we are reading the same game (or like I said, he could be designing himself to mirror my reads in particular)

I also, in particular liked the things that he called out for town reading me. They were not the easy out in reference to my claim. They were not even the big cases that I wrote day 1. Both would be easy things to throw in and call me a town read of me. They were 1606 and 1106. Those are not easy, stand out things to remember when trying to bs a town read on me. But, I can totally see why he would town read me for them, and it makes me feel like he is really reading my posts to come to that read.

Then I like the Val town read. I have also started town reading Val (actually not sure I have actually expressed that in thread before now) so seeing it there gives me good feelies.

And I also really liked the reach out to twin with me if I needed him to. And when I saw it, I could see where town Dunn would come to the decision to make that offer since it is true that he would not be a night kill risk.

It was just a bunch of things back to back that I liked.

Having agreeable town reads means almost essentially nothing. Scum know who is town and can fake believable townreads. It is not very hard. The idea that scum are somehow incapable of reading your posts to fake a read on you is baffling. It strikes me as terribly convenient in terms of how he's handling you.

Again, agreeing with you on a singular townread is an actively

terrible

reason to be townreading someone. Agreeing on that one read means almost nothing

Yeah. This is an incredibly disingenuous simplification of what I said.

The Primary thing (and I called it as such in my posts) that made me lean on it being town indicative, is that the REASONS presented as to town read me make more sense to me as to come from Town who has actively thought about my alignment, then from scum looking to just bs a town read on me.

Like, if scum just wants to throw out a town read on me, then there are plenty of easy things to say. How active I have been. The cases I put out on Day 1 were a lot of effort for scum to throw out on day 1. My PR claim, and the way that I outed it. But he did not call out any of the easy reasons to town read me. Instead he called out very specific posts that I were not all that memorable, but ones that I could see why he would genuinely think I was more likely town for them.

The reasons that the gave seemed to me to imply Genuine Thoughts on my alignement.

I don't remotely see how you, as town, cannot be paranoid he's buddying up to you here. None of this is a remotely compelling defense.

This is also incredibly disengenuos.
Because.
Like.
My gut reaction was that it was either Real Town Thoughts from Dunn, or targeted towards getting me in particular to town read him.

I cannot tell if Dunn is actually town, or if (stealing this one from fire from earlier) he wrote that flurry of posts specifically to make me think that he is town. Because, I really liked that flurry of posts.

[gorilla]

There is no guarantee in particular that the one role in this game that could be non-standard is the same exact role, or the same exact alignment. I don't much doubt he's being truthful in his claim that his role does something but significantly doubt it is a town-aligned power, particular in concert with how he is playing this game.

Did you respond or note to me pointing out cakez trying to quick clear Luke on this point? I found that very suss, and possibly linking of their alignments.

I do think Luke's role could easily be scum aligned, and he was trying to get a super power. Speaking of the doctor-nerfing aspects, could be scum need to guess a town invictus target like that to gain invictus protection abilities. Would be a decent risk-reward mechanic to build in. /wildassspeculation

I specifically said that it seems weird that there is no hint at re-evaluating Me.

Especially given the context of how I have been approaching this game when compared to the people you are scum reading.

You have a pretty good PR claim why would I reevaluate you at this point? I feel fine townbinning you unless some evidence comes up you're fakeclaiming

It seems like Luke's role could equally be a scum role. Not sure what as described makes it town for sure. It comes down to whether you read his play as town, imo.

I feel the manner of his claiming was town. Like it makes sense to me why he claimed it from the town mindset

I'm slightly skeptical of this, but alright.

These posts? I didn't have a lot of thought on them, I can easily see scum or town making that sort of post.

[Lukewarm]

Luke, I'm confused why you're suddenly all "I want cakez now" "I want Mala" like, I feel like a lot of focus has gone into Dunn/Dwlee, and like especially mala now, we've all established we're leaving mala alone till d3, then if she continues doing nothing, she's main focus, literally aready established. End of day is close, you don't have thoughts on Dunn/Dwlee? or do you think they're both town?

Cakez has been my strongest scum read this entire day phase, and you only just recently revealed that there is apparently a reason to think otherwise outside of you thinking that scum!Cakez would not call day 1 ass (which I fundamentally disagreed with)

My comment on Mala was mainly that I think that that pop in was pretty scummy (on top of her already underwhelming presence this game). She has been out of thread for 2 full days, and that is the one any only thing she felt like commenting on. Found it scummy, and I called it out as scum. I am aware that she is not dying this phase, which is why it did not also come with a vote.

Based on play, those are my two strongest scum reads. And both are apparently off the table for the day based on other peoples mech claims.

Deciding who is your third strongest scum read is a pretty uncomfortable approach to a game, since at that point it is basically just letting someone you can see as scum die.

I had a preference for Dunn to die earlier as his ISO was missing a substantive quality that I expect from Town!Dunn, but then I liked a couple of his posts. If he goes over, I won't be upset or anything, but Having A Series of Posts That i Liked coming from Dunn is more then I can say about Dwlee, so I guess between the two I would go Dwlee at this point? (Also, Dunn is the only person currently set up for me to twin with, so there is that too).

[Lukewarm]

I cannot tell if Dunn is actually town, or if (stealing this one from fire from earlier) he wrote that flurry of posts specifically to make me think that he is town. Because, I really liked that flurry of posts.

What about that is good or difficult to fake?

Having agreeable town reads means almost essentially nothing. Scum know who is town and can fake believable townreads. It is not very hard. The idea that scum are somehow incapable of reading your posts to fake a read on you is baffling. It strikes me as terribly convenient in terms of how he's handling you.

Again, agreeing with you on a singular townread is an actively

terrible

reason to be townreading someone. Agreeing on that one read means almost nothing

I don't remotely see how you, as town, cannot be paranoid he's buddying up to you here. None of this is a remotely compelling defense.

The more I think about these posts, the more I hate them.

They seems to be approaching the topic as "come up with something that scum could never post, or having thoughts that someone could be town is scummy and fake" -- when that is literally never how this game or reads work.

Scum can post literally anything. This is a game more about looking at a post, and asking whether is seems more likely something comes from town or scum, and imo, those reasons seemed more likely to come from town. Based on the difference in how scum or town approach building town reads.

But because there is a possibility that scum could make them (and I agree that that is a possibility) Gorilla is completely dismissing it, and not actually engaging in whether that logic would be more likely to come from town or scum.

[Bell]

VOTE: Sircakez

[Lukewarm]

It also makes a pretty strange leap from saying that scum!Dunn is purposefully approach to me is "terribly convenient in terms of how he's handling you."

To saying that we are partnered. Like, if you look at Dunn's play, and think that he is town reading me out of convenience, it seems to imply that he is scum approaching me in a way to get me to work with him. Yet he then says that we are partnered.

There is no reason for scum!Dunn to go out of his way to approach me that way if I am his partner. And there is no reason for scum!Luke to focus on Dunn's town read of me as the basis for my town pings on him if we are partnered.

Like, it feels like, based on the arguments he is presenting, Gorilla Should be thinking that I am getting pocketed here. Or possibly that I am White Knighting Dunn here. But instead he is calling up partnered.

[Lukewarm]

@Bell

I mean, I have info that I'm almost certain clears cakez so yeah, he's not being limmed here

like if you need to, just go lim me, then sheep me on cakez being town

@fireisred: I don't need to know further details, but can you consider letting us know if you have any idea what Kovu is talking about, and if you concur with the assessment.

I worry that the more times I see Kovu poping in with this sort of obviously antitown play; the business with RR/Mala, the fucking around with Luke, and now this, the more I wonder if it's actually deliberate.

ill say that i know what she's talking about and that i don't want to lim cakez today

[gorilla]

Luke, I'm confused why you're suddenly all "I want cakez now" "I want Mala" like, I feel like a lot of focus has gone into Dunn/Dwlee, and like especially mala now, we've all established we're leaving mala alone till d3, then if she continues doing nothing, she's main focus, literally aready established. End of day is close, you don't have thoughts on Dunn/Dwlee? or do you think they're both town?

Cakez has been my strongest scum read this entire day phase, and you only just recently revealed that there is apparently a reason to think otherwise outside of you thinking that scum!Cakez would not call day 1 ass (which I fundamentally disagreed with)

My comment on Mala was mainly that I think that that pop in was pretty scummy (on top of her already underwhelming presence this game). She has been out of thread for 2 full days, and that is the one any only thing she felt like commenting on. Found it scummy, and I called it out as scum. I am aware that she is not dying this phase, which is why it did not also come with a vote.

Based on play, those are my two strongest scum reads. And both are apparently off the table for the day based on other peoples mech claims.

Deciding who is your third strongest scum read is a pretty uncomfortable approach to a game, since at that point it is basically just letting someone you can see as scum die.

I had a preference for Dunn to die earlier as his ISO was missing a substantive quality that I expect from Town!Dunn, but then I liked a couple of his posts. If he goes over, I won't be upset or anything, but Having A Series of Posts That i Liked coming from Dunn is more then I can say about Dwlee, so I guess between the two I would go Dwlee at this point? (Also, Dunn is the only person currently set up for me to twin with, so there is that too).

What an ass day 1

I bet scum were all over the Lavar wagon the reasoning for it was so bad

I find it hard to believe that Cakez town read Lava as hard as he claimed day 1. I also didn't like the way that he engaged with the case on Lava itself.

It feels more like he is just trying hard to look like The Person Who Was Right.

VOTE: Cakez

I also feel very comfortable with my townread on Lukewarm. I'm treating Kovu as town for reasons previously discussed. I still think Marci is more likely town than not.

I don't pretend to be able to read enchant particularly well, but their votes and other content we have has all made at least sense to me, neither am I detecting any difference between enchant here and town!enchant in the games I have seen. I have some sympathy for the argument that enchant will be a difficult sort and we might need to consider dealing with it sooner or later, but I think they deserve more of a chance for something else to happen to make that alignment more clear, and I'm not interested in a vote there today.

I want people to actually start reading my posts, so I will give justification elsewhere, but I wouldn't vote Dunn today either. I could probably be convinced to join a wagon on anyone else not mentioned, but my strong preference is for SirCakez, as indicated by my vote.

like all my scumspects suddenly developed scumreads on me after I laid out my scumpool yesterday and I don't think it's a coincidence

I would very much like to kill Cakez today if anyone else is interested.

Like, here he is pushing the idea that scum would scum read him for scum reading scum. Ignores the fact that he town binned Dunn Day 1, but Dunn was pushed him.

Spoiler: Dunn shading Cakez, while cakez is still calling dunn town

My point above being that the above post feels selective in that you don't include the information that doesn't support your viewpoint, or seem to care what I am doing because I'm not a popular wagon right now, which feels inconsistent

I ignored it because I've gotten tons of towntells from you earlier on so I didn't see the relevance

It also ignores the people who are scum reading him that are not in his scum pool. (Me, I am talking about me. He has done nothing but call me town, but is then calling other people suspicious for doing something that I am also doing).

The active sum of your case against cakez is paper-thin: he was protesting about the lavar wagon was bad, and that he thought scum were pushing him because he suspected scum (a mindset that frequently comes from town.

Your case against Malakittens is that she is lurking.

These are both lazy reads that I would expect to see from someone who doesn't actually care about solving the game.

[gorilla]

I cannot tell if Dunn is actually town, or if (stealing this one from fire from earlier) he wrote that flurry of posts specifically to make me think that he is town. Because, I really liked that flurry of posts.

What about that is good or difficult to fake?

Having agreeable town reads means almost essentially nothing. Scum know who is town and can fake believable townreads. It is not very hard. The idea that scum are somehow incapable of reading your posts to fake a read on you is baffling. It strikes me as terribly convenient in terms of how he's handling you.

Again, agreeing with you on a singular townread is an actively

terrible

reason to be townreading someone. Agreeing on that one read means almost nothing

I don't remotely see how you, as town, cannot be paranoid he's buddying up to you here. None of this is a remotely compelling defense.

The more I think about these posts, the more I hate them.

They seems to be approaching the topic as "come up with something that scum could never post, or having thoughts that someone could be town is scummy and fake" -- when that is literally never how this game or reads work.

Scum can post literally anything. This is a game more about looking at a post, and asking whether is seems more likely something comes from town or scum, and imo, those reasons seemed more likely to come from town. Based on the difference in how scum or town approach building town reads.

But because there is a possibility that scum could make them (and I agree that that is a possibility) Gorilla is completely dismissing it, and not actually engaging in whether that logic would be more likely to come from town or scum.

No, I was asking you why you townread his posts. You gave me reasoning for townreading those posts that is bad and makes no sense.

I am absolutely not dismissing your reasoning because "scum could make those posts", I am dismissing your reasoning because none of it is particularly more likely to come from a town player despite you positing as such, and most of it boils down to "he agrees with me and is townreading me"

Now you're getting upset because I'm calling you scum, because your previous attempt to pivot on me failed.

[gorilla]

It also makes a pretty strange leap from saying that scum!Dunn is purposefully approach to me is "terribly convenient in terms of how he's handling you."

To saying that we are partnered. Like, if you look at Dunn's play, and think that he is town reading me out of convenience, it seems to imply that he is scum approaching me in a way to get me to work with him. Yet he then says that we are partnered.

There is no reason for scum!Dunn to go out of his way to approach me that way if I am his partner. And there is no reason for scum!Luke to focus on Dunn's town read of me as the basis for my town pings on him if we are partnered.

Like, it feels like, based on the arguments he is presenting, Gorilla Should be thinking that I am getting pocketed here. Or possibly that I am White Knighting Dunn here. But instead he is calling up partnered.

I've entertained multiple possibilities in my mind, trying to act like I immediately have to have the conclusion that feels most natural to you is ridiculous.

I think you're both scummy on individual play. I think your reasoning surrounding Dunn is actively horrendous. My natural impulse is to immediately see that as teamed, because I've been calling you out fort a while now, and I think you'd realize as scum that you pretty much have to shield him at this point. But I have also acknowledged the possibility I may be wrong on his alignment and you are using him as a convenient protection.

[Lukewarm]

The active sum of your case against cakez is paper-thin: he was protesting about the lavar wagon was bad, and that he thought scum were pushing him because he suspected scum (a mindset that frequently comes from town.

Your case against Malakittens is that she is lurking.

These are both lazy reads that I would expect to see from someone who doesn't actually care about solving the game.

See, here he us once again misrepresenting my thoughts to make them seem ridiculous.


My thoughts on Cakez is that his reads and read confidence feel faked. That his approach felt scum motivated to look good. That he is not genuinely sorting players, especially highlighted by the way that he wrote me off as town early day 1 and appears to not be looking at me any more since.

These are all pretty strong reasons to suspect someone as being scum before we have had a scum flip to look at associative.

Buy gorilla has decided to push the narrative that I am scum with Dunn, so he is dismissing everything that i have said about every player.

Pedit: once again, he did not even ask : would scum dunn or town dunn be more likely to have given much thought to when I made the comment about looking up whether datisi was scum or town in the game I remembered.

And it is my opinion that scum dunn, already knowing that datisi and I were both town would have breezed past that post, and not thought much about it. Nor thought to bring it up as a Core Reason to think that I am town.

[Bell]

Do not believe Kovu. They’ve lied before on investigates and results.

[Lukewarm]

VOTE: dwlee

I am ready to end the day and twin with Dunn.

I think tomorrow will be very enlightening

[Bell]

There’s also mala to consider.

[Bell]

You’re basically telling me that a bunch of investigators are 1 shot and all of the power roles in this game have outted on d1.
This is something prism would absolutely punish so we’ve put ourselves at a disadvantage at best.

[Lukewarm]

Do not believe Kovu. They’ve lied before on investigates and results.

There’s also mala to consider.

Fire confirmed they outed info to them. So they would have had to have lied in their neighborhood in advance to set up for lying about it out here.

I tried to ask questions about Mala and I was told to stop.

What is your read on Dwlee? Do you want them to live the day?

[Val89]

Where are you getting they have to be 1-shot, or is that an assumption you are making based on what you think would pass review?

[Lukewarm]

You’re basically telling me that a bunch of investigators are 1 shot and all of the power roles in this game have outted on d1.
This is something prism would absolutely punish so we’ve put ourselves at a disadvantage at best.

No. I believe that at least 1 of you+Baltar, Mala, or Kovu are lying. But no one wants to sort through that today.

[gorilla]

VOTE: dwlee

I am ready to end the day and twin with Dunn.

I think tomorrow will be very enlightening

FTR, If I die overnight as a consequence of this and my invictus does not go off, power-lim lukewarm. There's a very decent chance his current read pivot is being done as an excuse to justify killing me.

[gorilla]

VOTE: Lukewarm

Hell, I'll put it there spiritually. I think he's being blatant scum right now.

[Bell]

Where are you getting they have to be 1-shot, or is that an assumption you are making based on what you think would pass review?

They outed easily, and without further results. It would be game throwing to out results the second they get them unless they were in serious danger of being eliminated (debatable for Mala, but absolutely not the case for Kovu$

[gorilla]

The timing of that vote flop onto the lead wagon is a "get me into the night phase and away from the person calling me out" move.

[Dwlee99]

What's the move here as scum? To convince people to vote you using a case that is likely to be viewed as reachy? To get people like me to see it as towny?

I think, as scum, it is a two fold benefit. It gives the appearance of scum hunting (they are still pushing this as valid, mind you), and if there I'd any merit to what they are saying it shades me as potentially having ulterior motives to push dwlee. They said they think I might be more scummy than Meuh after all!

Town can act desperately, you're right. However, is that desperation being made in good faith is the question. Dwlee is a very smart person, so I am going to treat my assessments with that in mind. I have a hard time believing they think scum broadly are more likely to use particular words than town. They are using a mathblade example (which I'm skeptical is even true) as an indictment on me. It's lazy and convenient. The same thing happened when dwlee attacked dunn using cakez' argument and then said 'whoopsie, that's not true'.

It's street fight logic: use any weapon you have. The problem is that dwlee isn't even checking what they are saying first to see if it is accurate. That's where my problem is.

Come on this is total bullshit

"which I'm skeptical is even true"

If you're town you could look up teapot read in MathBlade's posts and literally see a conversation between ssbm_Kyouko and MathBlade where Kyouko talks about how the teapot read worked to catch him. Or you could ask me for evidence of this. In what world are as town do you suspect I am completely lying about something and not try to nail me down on it? Just use it to shade me instead?

VOTE: VP Baltar

You could also look at our last game together where I basically had a guilty on you but was still "using any weapon I have." In the case of the word choice I checked 4 games and was on mobile so figured I could float it and people on a computer would be able to check easier. Which turned out to be true. You aren't actually sorting me here you're trying to find absolutely any reason to get me limmed