Open 856: Deputy cultists (Game over)

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That wouldnt be playing to a town win con Enchant

VOTE: Jacket

That said I think both vengeful townies should claim

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Why wouldnt the cultists vote the leader in RVS? Isnt the prime cultists' job in this setup to build false associatives?

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I mean the difference from cult and mafia isnt particularly relevant to that point

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I think its funny Korina wants to leash vengefuls.

I mean, even if we elimmed a vengeful, they could just... not kill who we tell them. Theres no repercussion to doing so.

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Got that.
Thanks, Enchant.
By the way, what happens if there ends up being more than 2 Vengeful claims?

If 3 people claim the only way we can tell who is the cultist is to eliminate one of them them, but 2 out of 3 of them will be telling the truth and we will likely kill a Vengeful townie. Even if we hit the prime cultist it doesn't help us. We could opt to not eliminate them but what if the cultist claiming is the leader?
I think we would have to kill all of them. Luckily because of the Vengeful townie power it would only take one phase. If we hit one of the vengeful townies they could kill one of the other people who claimed and we would know who the liar was although we might have one Vengeful townie kill the other which would suck. If we hit the cultist then yay if leader, eh if prime cultist.
Question now is: What if 4 people claim?

We find 2 cultists in 4 people. That kind of info is always a net positive

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I think BBT is town lightly but I don't think their argument is correct. It just feels like they misinterpreted the situation.
I don't think the push was from a scum intention.

I did have some stuff to say about Enchant but its a moot point now anyway.

Way too early solve: CL is in Titus, Bellaphant, furtiveglance

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Vengefuls should claim today to reduce the lim pool, although we dont need the claim yet. The claims become useless after a prime dies.

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Theres nothing stopping their own judgement. Cult will be influential if it is decided by majority but rhen again commonly scumread players will likely die amyway.
Theres value in both but I think the best course of action currently is just to not lim vengefuls as sinple as it is.

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I think Beat pairs with RH9, they've scumread first me, then Bellaphant who mentioned finding RH9 sus.

This is a bad take.

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It feels like a poorly thought out point that's mostly filler.

It feels to me like the kind of post scum would make to try and look like they are solving/ throwing shade.

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No

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Nor were you the first on that point

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There is also the route where we let cult recruit because then if we kill the recruit we delay cult victory a day.
VOTE: Bellaphant

I'll think about it more it. currently I am ill IRL so I probably wont be on too much. (or maybe I will be on more, who knows)

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Yeah, that's what I thought. But what's optimal?

Not in terms of claims, like I clearly am not that girl, but in terms of scum hunting - coz surely the non leader cultists almost want to be elimed, so that recruit can happen?

So we are looking for someone scummy but not too scum y? Even though in a normal game it's maybe worth elim-ing like...korina, as they could well be 'scum'? Or not? In trying to work out how associatives work too.

@enchant, can you explain more about cultists making the leader look good?

@beat, cool, I've asked you to explain your reads twice already. I work a lot better 1 on 1, so please chat things through with me.

You feel especially non confrontational as well as not feeling particularly pressured.

Effectively you are playing how I would expect the Cult Leader to play.

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I also find your push on nathaan and me weird. Like, you've decided that cult 'play like x' but I think nathaan is townie, then you've shoved me in the same slots as korina and Titus who've posted a lot less content than me. Like, there's a solid 5ish players that have between 30-41 posts, and then only you above that.

I think you might be jumping at shadows? I don't think scum leader bbt has this many casual bad takes.

I dont like this post, it feels like trying to delegate an elim to an inactive slot.

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I still think killing the vengefuls today are good, because it stops the double-lim from going to cult

???

Explain this

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Voting outside of there gives us basically confirmed 3 not CL and a chance of winning outright.

I dont think its the move today

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Voting outside of there gives us basically confirmed 3 not CL and a chance of winning outright.

I dont think its (limming inside of venge claims)the move today

EBWOP

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I could see Cat being s/s aligned with bella.
Cat is basically reaffirming bella's own defense and it doesnt feel like a natural read because it doesnt address why bella cant be cult.

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Bella CL
Cat.jpeg/ Nathann cultist

My running theory atp. Will go into detail later but feel free to discuss before hand

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I still think killing the vengefuls today are good, because it stops the double-lim from going to cult

???

Explain this

Cult recruits a vengeful
They kill a prime cultist
Enchant govern-kills the vengeful d4
Cult wins

Or since we know there’s a scum in the vengeful, we still get to direct where the venge-kill goes without it being a scum-venge

This doesnt make sense

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VOTE: Bellaphant

I firmly believe this is the elim.

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Spoiler: Notable interactions of Bella, Cat, and Nathann

I want to ask why to both of the above posts. Although tbf I am town reading cat for bad reasons.

Got that.
Thanks, Enchant.
By the way, what happens if there ends up being more than 2 Vengeful claims?

If 3 people claim the only way we can tell who is the cultist is to eliminate one of them them, but 2 out of 3 of them will be telling the truth and we will likely kill a Vengeful townie. Even if we hit the prime cultist it doesn't help us. We could opt to not eliminate them but what if the cultist claiming is the leader?
I think we would have to kill all of them. Luckily because of the Vengeful townie power it would only take one phase. If we hit one of the vengeful townies they could kill one of the other people who claimed and we would know who the liar was although we might have one Vengeful townie kill the other which would suck. If we hit the cultist then yay if leader, eh if prime cultist.
Question now is: What if 4 people claim?

@nathaan, they made me laugh with their opening to enchant. I tend to find town are more relaxed and making me laugh has tended town before - cat was in a game recently where one of my reasons for scum reading someone was they made me laugh when we were both town but not that game.

The short answer is yes it was a serious read, which makes more sense if you imagine it was a 9 player game (which I did).

Okay. Walk me through your thoughts on why three people voting Jacket on page 1 makes him likely not Cult Leader. (I know the answer might seem obvious, but bear with me.)

I think Korina is a non-Leader Cultist. Their entrance into this game feels designed to get people angry and to vote them over it. It feels inflammatory for the sake of it. And since I feel like Korina is a better Scum player than that and wouldn't make such a stupid error, AND that they would realize it's in Cult's favour to kill non-Leader Cultists since then they can convert more.

And I'm vaguely reading Bellaphant as not aligned with Korina, so there's that.

RH9 is still my best bet for Cult Leader. His posts feel like he's genuinely trying to uphold a thread presence, but he's not actually saying anything helpful or Townie.

Does anyone (other than Korina) have thoughts on whether furtiveglance's 64 is Townie or Scummy? It feels like a post I

should

have an opinion on, but I can't quite make it out.

114 is such a bad take on the situation.

Also, cat.jpeg is probably town. The vote on her is bad - I cousktn understand the set up stuff when enchant and korina were talking, but what cat says actually makes sense? Like, she's the least scummy of the three 'set up' talkers.

I think they were cross about a policy elim/meme, not the votes themselves? Idek, there's clearly context here that they think people know but I don't.

Fair. Can you expand on it a bit? Honestly I've not noticed then produce anything and have lumped them with Titus/bbt

It's not scummy on its own, but the third time in four posts feels very hedgey.

I think they were cross about a policy elim/meme, not the votes themselves? Idek, there's clearly context here that they think people know but I don't.

Fair. Can you expand on it a bit? Honestly I've not noticed then produce anything and have lumped them with Titus/bbt

It's not scummy on its own, but the third time in four posts feels very hedgey.

Doesn't change my point. They got meme voted because it's a Cult game. Korina is surely used to getting meme voted in Cult games. I just don't see a world where their first reaction to seeing that is going all rage mode and screaming at everyone who voted them for it.

Make note, I don't think Korina reacts like that as Town, and I also think Scum!Korina is good enough to know that the game is most likely to find such a reaction Scummy. So it doesn't make sense they're the Cult Leader. The only scenario where it makes sense is if Korina is a Cultist (who knows it's in benefit of the Cult for Cultists to get killed so that the Leader can recruit more), or

maybe

they're a Vengeful Townie trying to play a hero. My money is currently on the former.

Read Titus's and BBT's ISOs, then read RH9's. All of them have about the same amount of content. The only difference is that Titus and BBT are not pretending that they're solving anything. While RH9 has posted 8 posts, most of which are tangentially game-related (talking about the setup, etc.) but none of them actually get us anywhere. He doesn't have reads. Other than arguably Townleaning Jacket, who, IMHO, had not done anything worth unvoting at the time. RH9 and Titus/BBT all have zero content, but RH9 is the only of the three who is trying to look like he's contributing.

I mean. furtiveglance's not someone I have a great read on right now. I concluded that he is Townie in one scenario, and null in the other. I don't pretend to have strong reads on people I don't have ones, and I didn't want to leave that line of conversation without giving a conclusion.

I don't think Korina, Bella, or Enchant are CL.

Bbt, it's a day one read. I'm also struggling for other actual town reads - like, it's you, cat and nathaan? Jacket's right about people being passive, I've put questions out that people aren't even responding To.

Tbf I'd love a bit more pressure and engagement but what you've basically described is bella playing mafia, especially on day one. Titus, bbt and cat can probably confirm.

Is there anything specific you want to ask me about/discuss?

I almost feel like CL is in the vengeful claims

I also find your push on nathaan and me weird. Like, you've decided that cult 'play like x' but I think nathaan is townie, then you've shoved me in the same slots as korina and Titus who've posted a lot less content than me. Like, there's a solid 5ish players that have between 30-41 posts, and then only you above that.

I think you might be jumping at shadows? I don't think scum leader bbt has this many casual bad takes.

The three musketeers at work.

Cat.jpeg and Bellaphant work with each other through a majority of the game. Cat.jpeg encourages bad mech plays which isn't anything definitive, except the buddy/buddyness with Bella. Cat has notable instances of discrediting ideas or players as well as Bella ends up not contributing a lot and mainly plays defensive of cat and bella. Their only real 'push' is an OMGUS and most of the rest of their play appears like obfuscation rather than curiosity or 'solviness' They play to keep certain players alive which I think has high CL equity.

Nathann is the mostl iekly wrong here but notably is closer to the other two in townreads earlier on (before they may have decided who will claim vengeful) and drops most mention of the others after that point. It reeks of distancing but I can't find Nathann's role in cults plan (and if this is the team there is a particular direction they are guiding the game towards) except perhaps as a foil/distancing.

I think most of the [abridged] ISO speaks for itself but if any part of it escapes you as to hwy I bring it up just say so. I will be back before deadline but this is why I want to elim bellaphant, and I haven't seen stronger cases on anyone else yet.

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Note: if a majority is not reaced by the deadline, the player with the most votes will be eliminated. If multiple wagons are tied for the most votes one will be randomly chosen.

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@beat, that just seems like a lot of associations before a flip. Or that you've just got through three Isos and added a quote whenever we mention each others name -;there's no analysis of what's happening. Cats has just said they town read me and Nathann has told me the pro town thing to do is vote him! Also, even though I'm confused as to why Nathann being town is controversial, would scum (especially cl!Bella) just ride on others' scum read of him? If I'm cult and he's town, great - he is dead and might venge another town! If he's cult, cult get another recruit!

I'll take another look at cat.

P-edit maybe not.

Theres some evidence of a coordinated effort to convince town to not do the mechanically optimal play.

Also if I am wrong it ends with one miselim and I can reevaluate.

Unless you want to champion a counter wagon?

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Theres a decent chance cat could be CL over bella.

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I think I'll stay on bella though.

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I did mix a few of your posts woth nathann it seems.

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Yes we are in twilight

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VOTE: Bellaphant

For the the time being

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Our odds arent good with 2 lims left

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I've asked for confirmation on something.

If the answer is what I'm led to believe is true tomorrow is pmelo.

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Like I said Im waiting on the moderator to answer something.

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For now you can disregard it till tomorrow

Better cult doesn't know If i'm right in retrospect

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Vote count 2.2

Titus (2)

: Korina, BlueBloodedToffee

Bellaphant (2)

: Beat, Jacket

Jacket (1)

: furtiveglance

furtiveglance (1)

: Enchant

Not voting (4)

: RH9, Bellaphant, Nathann, Titus

With 10 alive it takes 6 to eliminate

Day 2 ends in: (expired on 2022-07-04 08:00:00)


@beat, I already answered this

Like I said Im waiting on the moderator to answer something.

1. no you haven't
2. You probably shouldn't be confirming the mod correspondance and should just reply via pm

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Setup information

This is the setup wiki page: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... y_Cultists, read it.

Possible alignments are

cult

and

town

. Town wins when the cult leader is eliminated and cult wins when they achieve parity with the town or nothing can prevent this from happening.

The full setup/roles are:

1 Cult Leader
2 Prime Cultists

1 D4 Governor
2 Vengeful townies
5 Vanilla townies

If a prime cultist dies the cult leader may recruit a new cultist during the night phase, if no prime cultists die, or if there is a no elimination, the night phase is skipped.
Recruited cultists will flip both their recruited cultist flip and their original role pm.

Full role PM's:

Spoiler: Vanilla townie

Welcome to Open 856: deputy cultists. You are a

vanilla townie

.

Abilities

You have no active abilities

Win condition

You win when the cult leader dies

Spoiler: Vengeful townie

Welcome to Open 856: deputy cultists. You are a

Vengeful townie

.

Abilities

Kill: When you are eliminated, you may target another player in the game to attempt to kill them.

Win condition

You win when the cult leader dies

Spoiler: D4 Governor

Welcome to Open 856: deputy cultists. You are a

Day 4 Governor

.

Abilities

Assuming you are alive during day 4, you are going to select this day elimination.

Win condition

You win when the cult leader dies

Spoiler: Cult leader

Welcome to Open 856: deputy cultists. You are a

Cult leader

, along with your partners, [Player Name] the Prime Cultist and [Player Name] the Prime Cultist.

Abilities

You may talk with your allies at any given phase here [redacted]
During night phase, which follows Prime Cultist death or no-elimination, you may attempt to recruit somebody to the Cult.

Win condition

You win when the Cult obtain parity or when nothing can prevent this from occurring.

Spoiler: Prime Cultist

Welcome to Open 856: deputy cultists. You are a

Prime Cultist

, along with your partners, [Player Name] the Cult Leader and [Player Name] the Prime Cultist.

Abilities

You may talk with your allies at any given phase here [redacted]

Win condition

You win when the Cult obtain parity or when nothing can prevent this from occurring.

Spoiler: Recruited Cultist

Hello [player name] you have been recruited to the cult and are now a

recruited Cultist

, along with your partner, [Player Name] the Cult Leader and [Player Name] the [role]

Abilities

You may talk with your allies at any given phase here [redacted]
You retain any abilities from your original role PM

Win condition

You win when the Cult obtain parity or when nothing can prevent this from occurring.

"During night phase, which follows Prime Cultist death or no-elimination, you may attempt to recruit somebody to the Cult."

If we eliminate Prime Cultist D3 we lose

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I was keeping the information to myself in the instance that I was converted. If I knew that governor can force no lim (which feels unintended why would I have asked the mod (And the mod confirms someone asked) Additionally without telling cult everyone knows this they could recruit enchant and we would take cults numbers down today if we elimmed enchant.


Honestly elimming me prolongs the game to another day so i dont particularly disagree though Id obviously prefer pimming cl.

Furtiveglance is cult.
Jacket is cult.
Korina and BBT are not cult.

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Thats what I got. This game has been all mech discussion which is good day 1 but it never led anywhere. I tried to get things going end of day 1 but it obviously didnt happen.

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If it was likely wasnt my concern
I found no positive reason to publisizw that information sooner regardless of how the game continued (unless I was up yo be the lim, where i would share)

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furtive should have been yesterday's lim.

Titus was a terrible lim.

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That said i think neither are cl

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Do you think there was a solid reason Jacket was voted day 1?

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People are thinking about this game in the wrong way. CL is'n't necessarily someone widely townread, just someone who will never get voted because cultists refuse to vote for them.

Do you think Bella is part of the cult?

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Beat, who do you think is the Cult Leader?

Ill give you three guesses

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I mean I'm not as convinced because bella has acted slightly better since but it can easily be scum.

The fact in 23 pages you've done so little to alleviate it is a count against because instead of 8 pages of basis theres more info and little of it dissuades me.

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I mean do you think you've done anything deserving a townread from me bella?

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Additionally I firmly believe no cult joined in on my wagon of you

The wagoners were Enchant/ Cat (both town) me (who i know is town) and korina (one of my stronger townreads)

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Even if you are town you are situated in a way that points to CL from my POV.

So the question is why did cult want you alive if you are not CL?

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Vote count 1.8

Cat.Jpeg (7)[ELIMINATION]

: RH9, furtiveglance, BlueBloodedToffee, Bellaphant, Nathann, Enchant, Korina

Bellaphant (2)

: Beat, Cat.Jpeg

Korina (1)

: Titus

Not voting (1)

: Jacket

With 11 alive it took 6 to eliminate

If jacket is town then every single cultist voted your counter wagon. I do think jacket is scum though. 2/3 is still a bad look

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(especially since jacket was not online/didnt post during the entire wagon)

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Catjpeg was a last minute scramble at deadline, people voted even after the hammer was in. You passing it off as a normal wagon is just really Sus.

I've been fairly straightforward with my play -

I've got townreads

, I sorted the vig claims, I argued for takes that weren't popular at the end of day one (would cl bother?). I'm not sure what you want from me? Because you won't make a case, and when you did actually make some points against me, 2/3 of them were invalid (me, cat and Nathann clearly aren't a scum team, and the theory posts that were so scummy weren't mine )

What have / you/ done apart from sit on a read for 23 pages and talk theory? Show me you try to sort ...I was going to say me, but anyone will do.

I mean.... thats not really something town should be prioritising.

I haven't interacted with you because my read isn't based on your reads. It's because you are acting and the game is acting around you as if you are CL. I asked you about that behavior and you said you always played like that so what would I have to engage you about? You agreed you were acting like CL would. There's not a great amount of distance to move that from.

Do you think scum is more or less likely to vote CL in a time scramble than a slow wagon? My bet is on less which works against you here.

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And for the record bella, I haven't had the scumread on you the entire game.

When cat flipped town I took some time to reevaluate and ended up with the same conclusion. If I am wrong and you are town I'm sorry but this is also mafia. People will be wrong.

Anyone else have any meaningful accusations to give?

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If cult quickhammers me game doesnt end so

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When cat flipped town I took some time to reevaluate and ended up with the same conclusion.

When did this happen?

I mean I cant prove I did so because it was out of thread.

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I'm fairly sure furtive is trying to get Jacket killed because jacket is prime and they are s/s.

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So Furtive CL?

.....

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VOTE: Bellaphant

If nothing more is to be said
Time to decide

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Perhaps, Ihope it lets them solve and If i am correct then yes I would.

This is the last vote of the game however way you slice it though. The rest is up to enchant to hit cl

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Good luck Enchant

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Its an open

Why wouldnt you expect massclaim?

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I enjoyed this game pretty thouroughly

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High points and low points
Just needed more engagement really

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Considering making my own take on a cult open. Probably will eventually