Mini Normal 2275: Roguelikes - Day 3: Endgame!

[Eiralox]

437
"Well I'm confident enough in lowell that I'd veto anyone i believe is spewed town off him, and i even actively townread loft off meta and malcom as well. Kenny i refuse to comment on because he did fool me recently in a somewhat embarassing way."

^Here. Loft was townread early on(no reason given, and then townread again because 'scumclaimed' lowell. Then townread here for third time for 'meta'. So.... yeah.


438 "I think Lowells reaction to a wagon starting on him however should be indicative enough that he isn't solving the game and is self pressing in a scummy way"

^ This isn't a case. Anyone would be defending themselves. Still feeling scum! cw going after lower posters(and assumed easier targets) with the exception of Shoshin, and the greening of Loft.

461: The Eira vote. I won't be commenting on me/cw, what a fucking mess, but read over it and come to your own conclusions. Note the desperation for having the mala/lowell/eiera team confirmed despite ancillary evidence, basically only my reaction is used to to push a team of three.

488: "Jumping around wagon to wagon is not a scum behavior."

^^ I take this in context with Lowell/Eira push and how Lowell and Eira jumping wagons for 'self pres' are scummy.

490:

"with [Lowell/Eira/Mala] as the most likely team

and then as bonus PoE: [BBT/kennyk]

Every other player I feel a confident enough reason to townread them.
"

^^^^^ Loftwing and SHosh are green, basically. Loft who was acting null to scum, i dont get, shosh i was townreading so sure ill give benefit of doubt if it wASNT for later cw/shosh.

543

"I hope that satiates any concerns you have that my read is faulty based on reasoning you think could apply to you. I could go for a townblock including myself, Irrelephant, you(loftwing), CSF, Fredrick, and Fancy Pants

honorary members Shoshin and Malcom"

^^^ Loft was townread for meta according to cw, as well malcolm, but loft is higher here? I mean loft was having a wagon on them so scum would be pushing for loft as town above all else, yes?

635: "Where in the world are Lowell and Mala"

Shade on inactives, easy targets. Might be town but the fact that these are in cw's scumblock just reads like egging on other imo.

708

" also i fully think shoshin is town and never eliminate and the only reason their reads are so bonkers is because theyre both misclearing the most obvious scum and misreading an easily findable townie for what I believe are incorrect reasons to label someone as mafia."

^^^ What a rant. basically: Shoshin is my scum bud we wont be elimming there, and they arent going for the same targets as me. But theyre town despite disgreeing with me(While cw was happy to vote Fred for going easy on Eira and having contrary reads to CW? This post in the context of Fred only heightens the chances of cw scum 4 me.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: Lowell

Guy is completely disengaged from the game and just AtE'd hard.

[Eiralox]

710: "shoshin please cite a single thought from Eira you thought was towny. Because I guarantee you binned them town for posting a lot and being pushed by someone you are currently confbiasing into a scumteam for defending your top scumread."

^The first direct Shoshin interaction iirc. This can be town! CW actually, or mere mafia theatre. If shosh is scum with cw this can be an out-of-chat coordination, basically: Don't draw attention to me' Eh.

VOTE: Confidently Wrong

Ok I'm still going to read you town and carry anyways

If you want to be obtuse, I think you are town because your thoughts are obviously independent and I can trace how you reached conclusions.

I disagree with your conclusions, and think the process is wrong. But its a towny process.

If you want to play with your ego and get mad and vote me for disagreeing with you go ahead, but don't be surprised when it doesn't help win the game for town.

for visibility

This... this exhibitionism. Look: Shosh is town despite voting me! Im tabulating it here so that everyone can be sure Shosh is town! I mean... one of the posts most triggering 2 me, this.

I am at a point where I can call every one of these players town with confidence, if I am wrong about *any* of them it is at worst only 1 in my humble opinion.

Loftwing
MalcolmTucker
Shoshin
Fredrick A Campbell
Cat Scratch Fever
FancyPants
Irrelephant11

And then to add on to that, I would say Mala after her recent postings and Kenny, are both also townreads for me although I am not confident enough to lock them in. Mala is closer to townlocking than Kenny here in this case.

This leaves us with a trio of BBT/Lowell/Eiralox

Look at how high up Fred, Loft and Shoshin are here. BBT/Lowell/Eira locked in as main targets, kenny and mala left on the backburner to switch to later as easier targets(See this in D2)

[Eiralox]

VOTE: Lowell

Guy is completely disengaged from the game and just AtE'd hard.

I'm not advising this at all. My advice is DO NOT vote Lowell today, rather leave that slot for the night. I can't stress how much I'm going to be against a Lowell elim today. Why toffee? Dunn going nowhere? You afraid if it's not dunn you're going to be the target, with cw wagon going nowhere? Lowell is not a good elim, and I'll fight tooth and nail against it.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

UNVOTE:

Pedit - I like your posts. I'll actually put some effort into this game today. Lowell's recent posting is horrific though so he should probably do something if he is town

I unvoted Dunn because his posting looked good on entrance and I wanted to give him time.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

In relation to Dunn, I'm specifically referencing his VCA and analysis. Not his bad push on me, obv.

[Eiralox]

Lowell.... I mean i admit i'm not best gutreader but I have many reasons to be against that flip. I'll go into a Lowell ISO after CW if that is required, i dont really want to but rn im feeling strongly enough to defend there. I mean yeah it's a low effort low info slot but i still have my reasons. Mala was even lower effort and lower info and look where that kill got us after i hinted they're VT?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

It's not the low effort for why they're scummy though.

It's the lack of game-solving going on and the huge AtE post that they just did, too.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

He hasn't engaged with any of CWs posts at all

[Eiralox]

Yup, I'm aware of that. My feel is Lowell simply doesn't care, and is irked about engaging with cw(as am I tbh, it gets real messy real fast.) But i'm re-focusing on my cw shit rn, i might offer hard reasons for Lowell not being scum later on. I agree Lowell needs to talk more, but rn I believe they are town and they simply want to get shit over with(As do I.)

[Eiralox]

CW

#735

"No I think Shoshin or MalcomT is not that useful right now and I think they are town"

^^ Note the lumping in of Shoshin with Malcolm, before this Loftwing was lumped in with Malcom for 'meta' townread.

#787

"What signs do you see me being scum?

And why is Loftwing a good flip? Over Eira even?"

I mean.... anyone who paid honest attention to Loft wouldve seen them as an acceptable vote. Only Toffee and CW did not want that, and Eira with the unvote allowed Loft to escape.

#820

"Shoshin i will be extremely dissapointed if you help town lose this game because you think your solutions are the only correct ones."

Again a post in much the same vein as the other interactions with Shoshin, basically: Shosh, you're targets are wrong.

#821

"Loftwing i get the vibes thing on Fancy but im pretty sure they are town
I know you're trying your best to help people find you and I'm sorry there are stubborn townies this game being unfair to thay and intentionally ignoring it."

Much the same as 820, open sympathy to Loft(which I never saw from Toffee) and again much the same as Shoshin: Loftwing, change targets. This can be out-of-chat mafia cw.

It's hard to vote off Loftwing based on your input because your reasoning for him being Town is meta related, and when I did my dive (admittedly before I knew he was an alt) I didn't find the same.

As for your case on Eira I think I understand your jist but what I don't see is why "Eira is just wrong and bad at cases." is a worse explanation. Additionally it's partially supported by your surety of everyone else's alignment (you could only know Eira is making reads based on knowing everyone's alignment if you ALSO know everyone's alignment, I hope that makes sense).
I understand you could just be that sure of yourself, or at least pretending to be but it's kinda weird and difficult to just sheep.

I'm willing to compromise on Lowell as a "let's avoid loftwing vs eira" thing.

I'm not feeling Loftwing *at all* and I'm seeing their towngame here.

VOTE: Lowell

also BBT's last post being actually towny making me feel better about untownlocking irrelephant in my reads... because now I got a wild potential world of Irrelephant/Eira/Lowell

Eira is going nowhere, Loft is not an option, let's vote Lowell. Toffee suddenly moves up and Irell down.... not anything to do with toffee townreading Loftwing perchannce?

[Eiralox]

I'm so far behind in this game, only read properly up to page 11.

Loftwing wagon seems bad though, likely scum on that push. Gonna try my best to catch up today

this is the post that makes CW consider Irrel more scum than Toffee, for reference.

[Eiralox]

So... page 11, not caught up, Loftwing bad: CW sees this as town. The only plausible reason: Here is someone townreading Loftwing. Other CW targets (spes. Eira, Lowell and Irell) are openly hunting loftwing as scum at this point.

[Eiralox]

Let me sell you what I'm seeing in a way that you may see more clearly:

So you said earlier that you feel there's scum pushing Loftwing, no?

Well, if you look back, both Lowell and Eira switched their vote to Loftwing once a wagon on themselves started building.

My conclusion off that was that they were trying to self preserve by voting out Loftwing, rather than being a townie who organically found Loftwing scummy.

Again, it's ok for loftwing to be jumping wagons but Lowell and Eira(who actually found Loft scummy) are self pressing by voting for Loft?

If i die going into day 2, my number 1 legacy is eira scum
Yes shoshin that means you too should vote eira once you know i am town 100%

Lowell/irrelephant/eira is a team im heavily considering with BBT as backup PoE
Everyone else i feel have towntold to some capacity

Again a Shoshin goad. Lowell/irell/eira still seen as it, bbt reads loft green so no use in heavily pusing that slot from scum atm.

Cw,

why

am I town?

#945: Vote Eira

#946: Vote Lowell

I've not particularly SR'd Fredrick for most of the game (found the slot hard to read initially), but I think BBT is very much town, going to take a proper look at their case on Fredrick and see where I stand.

Lowell's posting hasn't screamed townie at me, but some of their recent responses don't indicate a scum player trying to stay on the good side of town either.

Fredrick is town, probably PR, we are NOT voting there.

he has clearly played in a non agenda way do not fucking counterwagon them last second.,

*sigh*

#966

i mean i also voted fred after saying i wont but my poss. of scum fred came from way early, even before toffee vote. CW basically reads fred pr, goes over toffee case, and votes.

Your case implies Irrelephant scum which is why I'm asking because I believe that slot is actually not as town as I first believed.

I admit I'm mostly scumreading Lowell for how they defend Eira in such a subtle yet overt manner.

Fredrick is also here defending Eira without explaination.

TBH

I feel a little less against it purely for the fact Fredrick has gone against my own reads so

here we go. Shoshin is going against cw reads but that's ok, shosh is tpown? loft goes for fancy and cw 'corrects' that? But here a player spewed town, spewed pr by CW, like very very recently, is suddenly ok to vote cos that can confirm Irrel as scum, after Ireel shifted down in reads co Toffee townread Loft? This.....

I mean i was null to scum on CW here, but even then something about this post didnt feel right. in retrospect its even worse.

fuck it
VOTE: Fredrick

I see it now.

I really had to fight the urge to unvote Fredrick here. It's a wonder I didn't, i decided ya'know cw can be town let's see cos after loft claim fred was the only place i culd really see scum D!, or enough to vote.

[Eiralox]

if this flips town pls turbo eira/lowell tho

i think BBT's reasoning on this was town motivated even if it leads to an incorrect conclusion

*sigh*

Even at the time i figured this was very very convenient for Scum! CW. Once fred flips green, we're back to Lowell/Eira. No mention of Irrel. And if even fred flips green, right, even tho BBT pushed so heavy on that wagon, BBT must be town, and Lowell and Eira is still it. Not anything 2 do with Toffee townreading Loftwing, no sir, move right along.

[Eiralox]

And also, forgot to mention about #1739 which I felt then but never mentioned: Just the certainty oozing out of CW in above words that Fred is indeed town.

[Eiralox]

about #971 sorry. I guess ill continue with this later?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Loft's read on Kenny was weird and so was their read on CW.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Now that you mention it, kenny hasn't said anything of substance despite saying many things.

VOTE: kennyk

UNVOTE: Kennyk

I like their recent posting, it feels a lot better than before.

This read felt weird at the time and it still feels weird now. I don't understand why Loft's read changed on Kenny and I don't really know how to interpret it. Is it Town!Kenny and Loft doesn't want to be there as pressure builds. Or is it scum!Kenny and Loft is worried the Kenny wagon is gaining momentum?

Loftwing what do you think about Confidently Wrong?

Currently they have little credibility in my eyes, and I don't trust a word that comes from their fingers. I would be willing to throw a vote down on them should the current wagons cease to prevail.

Loft basically slams CW into the ground here. Despite feeling pretty strongly about CW, they don't want to vote there unless current wagons dismantle (reminder to check wagons at this point as I'm phone posting)

What're your reads, Loft?

Town

Fredrick A Campbell
Confidently Wrong
---
Cat Scratch Fever
BlueBloodedToffee
Lowell
Irrelephant11
MalcolmTucker
Shoshin
Malakittens
---
kennyk
FancyPants
Eiralox

Scum

I know a large chunk of time passes between the two reads but there is 0 acknowledgement of CW going from 'wouldn't trust a word they say' to almost their top town read.

Cw,

why

am I town?

Do scum do this? Basically ask their scum buddy to town case them? I'm not sure.

This is the entirety of Loft's mentions of CW.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Loftwing what do you think about Confidently Wrong?

Currently they have little credibility in my eyes, and I don't trust a word that comes from their fingers. I would be willing to throw a vote down on them should the current wagons cease to prevail.

OK, so at the time of this post we had Lowell with 3 votes and Kenny with 2. They were the only real wagons being pushed discussed in thread.

Loft was on neither of these as he had recently unvoted Kenny. So why did he use the current wagons as an excuse to not vote for CW who he felt quite strongly about at that time?

[Eiralox]

It's hard to vote off Loftwing based on your input because your reasoning for him being Town is meta related, and when I did my dive (admittedly before I knew he was an alt) I didn't find the same.

As for your case on Eira I think I understand your jist but what I don't see is why "Eira is just wrong and bad at cases." is a worse explanation. Additionally it's partially supported by your surety of everyone else's alignment (you could only know Eira is making reads based on knowing everyone's alignment if you ALSO know everyone's alignment, I hope that makes sense).
I understand you could just be that sure of yourself, or at least pretending to be but it's kinda weird and difficult to just sheep.

I'm willing to compromise on Lowell as a "let's avoid loftwing vs eira" thing.

I'm not feeling Loftwing *at all* and I'm seeing their towngame here.

VOTE: Lowell

also BBT's last post being actually towny making me feel better about untownlocking irrelephant in my reads... because now I got a wild potential world of Irrelephant/Eira/Lowell

Eira is going nowhere, Loft is not an option, let's vote Lowell. Toffee suddenly moves up and Irell down.... not anything to do with toffee townreading Loftwing perchannce?

And what I'll add here, BBT was reading Lowell town, only other one to do so at the time D1 beside me iirc.

So here's the train of logic and one of my main points for scum! CW D1:

-Shoshin and Loftwing are ok when they don't agree with Confidently Wrong reads, CW won't vote them but publicly tells them to change their tune.

-Toffee gets downgraded to scum after many ppl townread Mala(making for a harder target), then toffee gets upgraded above Irrelephant directly after toffee townreads Loft but while Toffee is still townreading Lowell and to a lesser extent Eira

-Toffee case on Fred is go, CW first says no, Fred pr. Then the switch: Fred is going against CW reads, esp. regarding Eira, all this raises Irrel as scum above Toffee(While toffee is still townreading Lowell and Eira as well.....)

-Then the vote: CW votes with Eira, Toffee, Lowell, and Irrelpahnt(All who are being scumread by CW) and shoshin with the hammer.


I mean I don't think I have to say more about above post. I'll see if I can get back to doing these in order whenevr.

[Eiralox]

Loftwing what do you think about Confidently Wrong?

Currently they have little credibility in my eyes, and I don't trust a word that comes from their fingers. I would be willing to throw a vote down on them should the current wagons cease to prevail.

OK, so at the time of this post we had Lowell with 3 votes and Kenny with 2. They were the only real wagons being pushed discussed in thread.

Loft was on neither of these as he had recently unvoted Kenny. So why did he use the current wagons as an excuse to not vote for CW who he felt quite strongly about at that time?

I was also thinking this at the time RE: this post, the way Loft's words sound as if CW is scum but later actions loft treats CW as if they aint?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Yeah exactly.

Loft goes from not trusting a word CW says (but not voting them) to CW being their town read with no acknowledgement of how or why it happened.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

It explained why there was nothing of substance in terms of reads, because there was nothing in terms of reads. In terms of general thoughts, there is substance in their earlier posts.

So you vote Kenny for lack of substance despite lots of words. Then you unvote because Kenny confirms lots of words with no reads but that suddenly you found substance to his posts in the form of general thoughts. Why didn't these general thoughts matter before?

Shoshin's push on Loft regarding voting/unvoting Kenny prob makes Kenny town.

[Eiralox]

Why did Kenny saying “actually I wasn’t trying to offer you any reads in that early game longpost” satisfy you that he is town? The fact remained that he had written a bunch of words without advancing the game at all

Why does Eiralox’s confusing use of the word “null” still make him the scummiest player in your eyes? It seems like you’re choosing to be obtuse there as an excuse to keep a scumread, he’s obviously got reads and just doesn’t like to call them reads for some weird reason

Kenny clarified what his earlier post actually meant, becsuse we the people misinterpreted it. In light of his clarification, the post made more sense, so my objection was addressed.

Eiralox does have players outside of his nullbin, or at least I assume that's what they meant. So why not then seperate either kenny or cw from the nullbin then, is my current objection.

this post felt very weird to me, and now coming back to it i have on theory, don't know how it holds out: Scum team wanted to know who I judged more scummy between kenny and cw. At the time my instincts felt this sorta? I don't remember exactly but meh, i've adressed loftwing's weak push against me and.....

one of the central themes of loftwing push wasnt focused on my other null reads, but specifically on kenny/cw. Loft seemes very wound up about those specific two, perhaps(as ive said at multiple times D1 that im not scumreading cw) perhaps to make me place cw above kenny in estimation?

Perhaps this post wasn't a mere push on Eira and defence of kenny but had some ulterior purpose.... we'll see i guess