Open 857 | Frienemies | Postgame

[Something_Smart]

i'd be interested in literally everyone other than enchant and fire having a comment on this, though.

How is this not just a blatant mason fish

[Datisi]

???

4/7 people are playing the game right now???

[Something_Smart]

I mean you picked out a possible mason and asked all the other possible masons what their thoughts on him were

[Datisi]

i mean i picked my scumread and asked everyone that has not weighed in on the conversation what they think

[Something_Smart]

I guess I should clarify that it wasn't necessarily intentional, but it will necessarily have the outcome of possibly mason fishing if everyone answers honestly.

[Datisi]

is that not the case with every scumhunting action that's targeting a town player

[Datisi]

while you're here, who do you want to vote today?

[fireisredsir]

this is damaging to my datisi/ss theory

[fireisredsir]

this setup severely limits my ability to just throw out every thought that comes into my head and that is a challenge for me

[Something_Smart]

while you're here, who do you want to vote today?

Answer depends on the wagons, but ideally not a possible mason. Clearly scum do not have good Intel on the masons and a VT death tonight is fantastic.

[Datisi]

this is damaging to my datisi/ss theory

?

[Datisi]

personally i'd much rather have a dead mason and a dead scum, than misyeet today and go to 5p yeetlo with little info from today and a still possibly dead mason

[fireisredsir]

idk if ss as your scum partner calls you out like that

maybe he does but that was also more or less the reaction i had to it so

[Something_Smart]

Well if a mason had a scumread they were confident enough in to out and force through, I would gladly go along, but I don't think we live in that world, so I would rather not increase the chances of losing a mason a lot in order to increase the chances of killing scum a little.

[fireisredsir]

this setup severely limits my ability to just throw out every thought that comes into my head and that is a challenge for me

god i have so many

[Datisi]

idk if ss as your scum partner calls you out like that

i mean, you literally said you think the two of us are scum into the thread

i don't see how you could be surprised at the two people you just called scum interacting with one another and going "wow shit i can't believe that happened"

(yes i know your argument is slightly more profound no i do not care)

[Datisi]

i have a lot of things i wanna say about s_s's strategy here, but none of them are actually alignment-relevant and also i have to go back to work, but

i hate it

[Something_Smart]

this setup severely limits my ability to just throw out every thought that comes into my head and that is a challenge for me

You are spewed not mason so I think you can, just know that if you make a really good argument for why someone is/isn't mason the scum may correctly buy into it. But they may not, and it may help read you, so it could be worth it.

[fireisredsir]

the profoundity levels are important here tho

like if you were just talking to each other then whatever

but you just took a major step of action and his response kinda shuts you down and weakens your position

it's like if you just took a big step up a ladder and then he kicks it out from underneath you. it doesn't feel like something partners would do

if you wanted to theatre i have no idea why you would be like "hey im gonna pivot onto implo here but do it in a way that looks like mason fishing so that you can call me out for it!"

ig maybe it wasn't planned and you just posted that and then he genuinely saw it as looking awful and so he decided it was better for him to be the one to post about it before anyone else did. that's believable. but it's good theatre if it is theatre and i kinda buy it, so yes it is damaging to the possibility of you being partners

[Something_Smart]

i have a lot of things i wanna say about s_s's strategy here, but none of them are actually alignment-relevant and also i have to go back to work, but

i hate it

If you have an insight that you think will help me play in a pro-town way, I am open to hearing it. I'm doing this because it's a team game, and in general my most useful role on the town team is not to help form solid reads, it's to help use mechanics optimally. It is tricky in this game, but I still want to give it a try.

[fireisredsir]

this setup severely limits my ability to just throw out every thought that comes into my head and that is a challenge for me

You are spewed not mason so I think you can, just know that if you make a really good argument for why someone is/isn't mason the scum may correctly buy into it. But they may not, and it may help read you, so it could be worth it.

i am fairly confident that i am better at hunting masons this game than whoever the scumteam is considering that ive been right on the flip of every nk so far and scum has also missed twice

so i still don't think thats a good idea

[Datisi]

i think the strategy you laid out is mechanically optimal, but the +ev we get from it is not worth it the dayplay info it kills

so just playing like a normal player and trying to solve this the old fashioned way would be much better

[hutmeil]

here's a take

VOTE: implosion

i have a feeling he has been building a trajectory to get onto voting me. but the way i see it, that trajectory doesn't really make sense. or like, it has things added to it that are vaguely connected but overall they don't make a cohesive complete thought process together. my guess was that he was hoping enchant would carry on wanting to kill me from yesterday. i'd be interested in

literally everyone other than enchant and fire

having a comment on this, though.

also enchant is town. i was expecting him to come in trying to kill me today, and i feel like this reversal of his read of me makes absolutely zero sense to do as scum.

I need other non-Datisi people to look at Datisi and analyze him/what I'm saying about him more bc honestly I don't think back and forth with him himself is going to be very useful to me for sorting him :X. It just feels like it's going to fall into the trope of arguments in mafia where I say X, he says no not X, and I just can't really trust the argumentation as useful for his alignment.

Spoiler: This is basically a rant and i honestly am slightly embarrassed to post it because i'm going to feel really bad about it if datisi is town and tbh i might just not even read whatever he makes his reply to it because golly gosh

So the thing I said I'd look at wrt Datisi was his trajectory yesterday. He started off by talking about/going after Enchant, essentially prodding him to give reads and such and eventually voting him with Ari, starting around 1907. I'm not sure if I buy Datisi's vote here, looking it over. Ari's read is very clearly emotionally driven, and Datisi's comes off the back of essentially a series of back and forth questions that he didn't like the answers to. I think by 1933 when he votes, he is supposed to be scumreading Enchant and it's not just emotionally driven like Ari's vote clearly was, because his vote wasn't just a vanity vote and he shortly thereafter asked Ari why she thought Enchant was town. But then like 30 minutes later he made the comment that he thought Enchant was looking townie but had fooled him before. I guess like with the other thing I'd been describing, this can have an explanation as town but makes a lot of sense as a trajectory for scum to take on Enchant I think? I just feel like the thought process behind the vote is murky and doesn't quite make sense to me.

He then left his vote on S_S a while while fire became leading wagon, while he was also calling fire scum in a few ways (e.g. calling his lack of paranoia towards Datisi potentially scummy, and poe). It seems like for a while he was poeing fire/s_s and looking for reasons to break that poe. Sensible as either alignment probably.

Then comes the shift to Andante eventually, and I really can't tell what prompted it. It comes off the back of Datisi seemingly being unimpressed with a back-and-forth/Andante not giving reads, then Andante gets to E-2 and he says he's starting to think Andante is actually scum. This has a little bit of a parallel with the Enchant vote in that I can't tell fully if it's actually a read, actually frustration with Andante, or some combination of both (i mean clearly it's partially a read but it's a weird (not necessarily scummy-weird) reversal from how he'd been talking about Andante recently). He gives logical and meta justifications for the vote after that.

I guess my main issue with all this is that it all seems perfectly sensible to do as scum. Like, Datisi has cited things that he's done this game that he claims aren't how he plays as scum, but those things, generally to me, have sounded like actually pretty sensible things to do as scum. For instance,

entering the day with "there was a bus ackchually" is not the idea i wanna start planting in people's heads after bussing

He said he wouldn't have been pushing on-penguin-wagon d2 as scum because he was on-wagon. But that could be totally sensible to do as scum who was on-wagon and whose partner was off-wagon when there's five other people who were on wagon other than you and the now-dead baltar... I don't understand why it wouldn't be sensible, no one has ever actually had the thought pattern of "oh my god, Datisi is pushing on wagon, datisi was on wagon, datisi is totally scum!!" that he's implying he'd be afraid of as scum. That just, simply isn't how thought processes work? And there's more things at play that cause people to have reads on people than this and a part of me thinks that this line is just straight bullshit? Idk, maybe it's possible Town Datisi is lying to himself here??? but this seems simply false to me that he'd never (or even infrequently) make that play as scum.

i'm also not gonna so easily drop it if i do decide to take that angle because murdering on wagon then off wagon is overall easier than the other way around

This is also just, kind of bullshit? Sure it's "overall easier" why does that mean you'd never easily drop it? It's a perfectly sensible thing to do as scum for a billion different reasons. Maybe there's an easy off-wagon lim that day that presents itself, maybe you want to look like your opinions are fluid, etc, etc, etc.

if i'm gonna bus, i'm gonna come up with better arguments than "lol ye lurking is scummy" or however else i said it on d1 because if you wanna bus, you have to appear like you have Great Reasons why the person is scum, rather than jumping on as an afterthought

I think this is just a basic mischaracterization of this game. If scum!Datisi thought about bussing Penguin at the moment that he would have here, there were no Great Reasons why Penguin was scum. He'd done shit-all that was readable. But it's still potentially sensible to bus there. And he did give increasing reasons to vote penguin - it's not like he totally didn't justify it if it was a bus. Like he gave as good of reasons as I think he possibly could.

I think this is also just a fascinating take in its own right - it's almost saying "if I were scum, I would be playing so much better than I am as town". Like saying you would have given better reasons and been more committed to the bus. Like, why should I believe that your scum game is a better town game than your town game is? Idk.

Like, almost the entirety of the post I'm quoting here (2675) is saying "I can't be scum here because my game would look so much better if I was scum", as far as I can tell. The last paragraph:

like, you can argue "but datisi have big scumrange" and claim i did these things because wifom or because i was planning a month ahead to make this post, but i simply don't play scum like that because then i either have to (1) hope town draws these conclusions themselves or (2) make the arguments myself, and both of those are things that i can't rely on as scum

This is just so weird because he's claiming the things that he's done that are townie are townie because they are low-utility to do as scum, because people would never be giving him credit for them. Which like... tbh it sounds like Datisi is putting his scumgame on a bigger pedestal than I am? Like I think this is just not how anything works. Datisi, as scum, is sometimes going to do things that are Not Perfectly Optimal To Do As Scum In That Situation. He's just going to go with the flow sometimes.

And beyond all that, the actual reason I'm thinking more that you are scum is sort of PoE-inspired but it's not PoE. It's because exactly the thing that you're describing you should be town for, is why several other people in this game are town, but it doesn't apply to you. So many other players in this game have done shit that I feel

doesn't

make sense for them to do as scum, but every trajectory you've taken this game just feels so... sensible. You haven't turned on a dime, you haven't done any weird shit, and most importantly you haven't taken any major actions in the most recent parts of the game that have made me go "jeez, this just doesn't make sense to come from scum Datisi". Like, take Enchant. His weird outburst today is, I think, probably extremely +town. I'm open to arguments that it isn't but like, idk. It feels like if you're town, there should be something tangible that I can point to at this point that makes you town - there were things on d1 that were

somewhat

tangible but those aren't enough at this point?

Read the whole thing and my head hurts (sorry implo!). Anyway, I do remember Dats wanting to vote on-wagon d2. While others wanted to go off-wagon. This caught my attention because why go on-wagon when it's scum that got elimmed? Basic instinct would be to assume the wagon was pure (like what Gamma said before she got NKd). As towntisi, I guess he would like to sort out if there was any bussing. But as scumtisi, he could have also concluded that the wagon was pure and consisted of masons too.

Another thing, I was TRing Dats early. He's like my 2nd TR after VP and was expecting him to get NKd after VP because he was the unofficial town leader (like Ari said). But he's still alive now after 6 deaths and I'm very wary of him now.

VOTE: Datisi

[fireisredsir]

i am fairly confident that i am better at hunting masons this game than whoever the scumteam is considering that ive been right on the flip of every nk so far and scum has also missed twice

i say this, and yet i am currently somewhat thinking it's possible i have things kinda upside down

[fireisredsir]

ok datisi can be scum for other reasons but the "he was very towny early and he's still not dead" is a trash reason so please don't use it bc he will continue to rightfully shred you for it

scum have very different motivations behind their nightkills in this setup than usual. datisi was not on any of the nights the most likely to be mason