Micro 1059: Micro & Normal Stuff | GAME OVER

[Ausuka]

VOTE: meg

I don't think I am going to change my mind that this has to die before endgame

[Datisi]

It was mainly my stance about having no clue between datisi/ coral and my resons for each but most of that ended up being implied/ fairly obvious.

weren't you strongly townreading coral up until today? like, ik you were suspecting me/gamma yesterday, so after gamma's death, what made you go me/coral?

to add to this a bit, meg said that they found coral to be town bc she was being analytical/nuanced. i don't see how that goes away if coral was talking about phoenix, bc making analytical posts as scum is theoretically equally difficult if aimed at townies or aimed at scumbuddy

so trying to play up both the angle that coral is still kinda +town for them but not much, but also not really because they were aimed at pho, just feels like doing a necessary backtrack to get coral voted out today

because im struggling to see an overarching thought trajectory here

[Irrelephant11]

Official Vote Count 3.04

this battery is charging, and her birthday is in August.

elimination

With 5 votes in play, it takes 3 to close without saving.

MegAzumarill

(2): Datisi, Ausuka

Coral

(1): scamper

Not Voting

(4): Coral, MegAzumarill

Deadline:

(expired on 2022-08-14 04:59:26).

Mod notes:

<3

[MegAzumarill]

It was mainly my stance about having no clue between datisi/ coral and my resons for each but most of that ended up being implied/ fairly obvious.

weren't you strongly townreading coral up until today? like, ik you were suspecting me/gamma yesterday, so after gamma's death, what made you go me/coral?

to add to this a bit, meg said that they found coral to be town bc she was being analytical/nuanced. i don't see how that goes away if coral was talking about phoenix, bc making analytical posts as scum is theoretically equally difficult if aimed at townies or aimed at scumbuddy

You don't think scum has more reason to have a nuanced townread on their partner than on a townie? Difficult or no they have better reasons to do so.

[MegAzumarill]

VOTE: meg

I don't think I am going to change my mind that this has to die before endgame

Do you think there could be value in me getting to share my neighborhood?

It's been semifrequently used as a notes pt up to this point. If you think getting a chance to view into my thought processes a little more before I die has value I urge you to vote coral.

I think a lim order of me today is always going to benefit scum more than me tomorrow.

[Ausuka]

But I don't want to eliminate Coral?

If we really wanted to I guess I could paraphrase the hood. I don't think it will be massively helpful but.

[MegAzumarill]

Assume I flip town: who does that make scum?

[MegAzumarill]

i feel like we're getting distracted by mechanical shiny bullshit

coral committed to a roleclaim as scum very VERY early, which is something i really struggle to see coming from scum

These feel counterintuitive to each other, both condemning people for mechanical analysis and yet clearing someone specifically for an early claim in a PT they have full control over.

It feels like trying to take only mechanics that's beneficial to what they are trying to do right now but ignoring the ones that go against them.

[Coral]

Why would it be beneficial for scum datisi to clear me?

[scamper]

But I don't want to eliminate Coral?

If we really wanted to I guess I could paraphrase the hood. I don't think it will be massively helpful but.

i think u and dats are very badly pocketed

[scamper]

if im wrong im wrong and o well but i dont see how its possible u could have 3 clear generating roles including a free hidden ic on day 1

[scamper]

I really don't think it's Coral here?

My reasoning is that she immediately claimed in her PT on day 1 and committing hard to clearing me like that would be too much of a big brained gambit for me to accept I think, I don't think scum chooses to play around me like that. In particular I think being informed that the miller is town makes some sense, whereas scum having information about a miller is just super super weird given miller always claims

if ur not getting mled anyway it makes no difference + makse her role look more "useful"

and again, it makes literally no sense that a setup tha could potentially have 3 clears on day 2 in a micro passes review...

[scamper]

day 2 makes more sense at least but having a hood dynamic like that is really annoying

[scamper]

and u have to ask yourself why scum needs a *backup neigborizer* in a micro, thats such a profoundly useless role

it does provide a safe claim against th neap i guess (while the goon is immune to the complex cop) but that still seems really incredibly weak in contrast to everything else in the setup

[MegAzumarill]

Why would it be beneficial for scum datisi to clear me?

Because it lets them ml me and end up in a scamper/Coral/Datisi endgame.

I think the appeal for scum!dats is obvious

[MegAzumarill]

and u have to ask yourself why scum needs a *backup neigborizer* in a micro, thats such a profoundly useless role

it does provide a safe claim against th neap i guess (while the goon is immune to the complex cop) but that still seems really incredibly weak in contrast to everything else in the setup

I don't think they think I'm mafia backup neighborizer, perhaps informed backup neighborizer, mafia informed, mafia rolecop, etc.

[Coral]

I know this is fairly useless self-meta, but as both alignments I have a strong distaste for winning due to mechanics (I don't find it very satisfying), and I don't think it would even cross my mind to go for that kind of gambit before the game even started. I considered, as town, not even using the PT day 1 because it felt almost unfairly clearing for me to have claimed in it that early.

I would also as scum have to either be informed or predict that there existed someone who it would make sense for me to be informed about. Being informed of a Miller is odd because there's no use for that. I could have been informed of the full setup, but I don't think that's necessary considering if I were scum, then town would be missing the power that comes with my role.

Again, to be clear, I said in the PT prior to gamestart (paraphrasing) that I know something about somebody, but I don't know if that's the person I'll neighborize yet or not (I suspected that there was likely something special about Ausuka that would make it make setup sense for me to be informed there, and my first guess was that it was possible she was Ascetic), and then immediately after the Miller claim I figured she would have definitely claimed if ascetic as well, so I claimed in the PT at that point.

[scamper]

i think its actually highly super unlikely that all of don/dats/corals roles can exist in the same game and be town

if you take for granted that they all are, you could potentially have 3 players mechanically cleared on day 2 of a micro

that seems like it would be incredibly unbalanced

i've been thinking about this the last few days - i think you're not thinking about it the way games actually are balanced. like, theoretically, yes, 3 confirmed townies could be present on day 2. (and this is assuming that town doesn't kill scum d1 and doesn't think one of them is fakeclaiming a clear on a partner.)

but it's also possible that there is only one confirmed townie on day 2, like it happened here. my role ended up not giving a clear, don got shot (he wasn't guaranteed to get a result anyway), and now mine and coral's claims are making each other look worse than we would've been individually. (which is also a factor in balancing.) and that's not even going into what scum possibly has as power roles.

like yeah, best case scenario for town is lol, but the worst case scenario for town is also lol. that's swing, not imbalance.

also, not that i necessarily agree with the following, but 3 cleared townies on d2, (7 alive, 2 scum alive) is still 50% ev.

again i dont see how u can balance around "in the worst case scenario for town scum has a chance", as a design philosophy thats super busted, u need to examine how easy it is for town to get a near lock based on rhings going right

[Coral]

and u have to ask yourself why scum needs a *backup neigborizer* in a micro, thats such a profoundly useless role

it does provide a safe claim against th neap i guess (while the goon is immune to the complex cop) but that still seems really incredibly weak in contrast to everything else in the setup

I don't think they think I'm mafia backup neighborizer, perhaps informed backup neighborizer, mafia informed, mafia rolecop, etc.

Correct, yes.

[scamper]

and u have to ask yourself why scum needs a *backup neigborizer* in a micro, thats such a profoundly useless role

it does provide a safe claim against th neap i guess (while the goon is immune to the complex cop) but that still seems really incredibly weak in contrast to everything else in the setup

I don't think they think I'm mafia backup neighborizer, perhaps informed backup neighborizer, mafia informed, mafia rolecop, etc.

i guess if u pulled a sneaky play as rolecop its not implausible but still rather silly

i still dont think its u on play

[scamper]

whatever, ive said my piece

i dont think its meg and will remain consistent in my position there

if meg is the last scum, we win anyway and thats fine

if its not meg i will be snapvoting dats in elo

[Coral]

Why would it be beneficial for scum datisi to clear me?

Because it lets them ml me and end up in a scamper/Coral/Datisi endgame.

I think the appeal for scum!dats is obvious

It's possible, but that seems like a very risky approach to me. He has to either get me to vote scamper or get scamper to believe that he is clearing me today and willing to vote me tomorrow.

[Ausuka]

i think its actually highly super unlikely that all of don/dats/corals roles can exist in the same game and be town

if you take for granted that they all are, you could potentially have 3 players mechanically cleared on day 2 of a micro

that seems like it would be incredibly unbalanced

i've been thinking about this the last few days - i think you're not thinking about it the way games actually are balanced. like, theoretically, yes, 3 confirmed townies could be present on day 2. (and this is assuming that town doesn't kill scum d1 and doesn't think one of them is fakeclaiming a clear on a partner.)

but it's also possible that there is only one confirmed townie on day 2, like it happened here. my role ended up not giving a clear, don got shot (he wasn't guaranteed to get a result anyway), and now mine and coral's claims are making each other look worse than we would've been individually. (which is also a factor in balancing.) and that's not even going into what scum possibly has as power roles.

like yeah, best case scenario for town is lol, but the worst case scenario for town is also lol. that's swing, not imbalance.

also, not that i necessarily agree with the following, but 3 cleared townies on d2, (7 alive, 2 scum alive) is still 50% ev.

again i dont see how u can balance around "in the worst case scenario for town scum has a chance", as a design philosophy thats super busted, u need to examine how easy it is for town to get a near lock based on rhings going right

i mean, does whether it's a design philosophy you agree with matter? The way NRG reviews setups in practice is a more reliable predictor of what this game might be than an 'ideal' review process and in my experience and datisi's too they are generally willing to accommodate a lot of swing.

I think meg being an informed backup neighbourizer would have symmetry with the informed neighbourizer and that would be my guess

If real N1 Neapolitan in this setup is probably just not a powerful role? Only innos are you and gamma, it's more likely than not to create wifom

[scamper]

i dont care to rgue setup spec anymore because i dont agree and ultimately i dont think megs play this game comes from scum

[Ausuka]

i think the 180 on coral from meg is very suspicious

I don't really see coral here and I'm sorry if I'm wrong and pocketed or whatever but that's just what i think

Pedit: ok? whatever then