Micro 1059: Micro & Normal Stuff | GAME OVER

[scamper]

i went to read phoenix's iso in 1976

first of all, flashbacks

second of all:

Spoiler:

Subject: Newbie 1976 - Game Over

Readslist, as promised:

Datisi, Salad

I have to speak about these two in the same paragraph. As far as D1 goes I was fine with Datisi apart from some minor stuff. I disagree with Norway that Datisi's been townreading Salad from the start, it doesn't seem so. When she starts townreading him, though, her main argument is him often acting in a similar way as Town. I'll ignore the whole thing about if the Mason should have claimed or not because as I already said I think there are good points to both sides of the argument. The townread on Salad is the point that has to be addressed here - speaking from my point of view, if I ignore the fact that Salad's Town playstyle is similar to the one he's showing us in this game, I still have some things that bugged my about him from D1 that I have already addressed as well as the fact that he hasn't posted much on D2. Also, him ignoring some of the questions asked is pissing me off, honestly. The fact that he gave up defending himself is not alignment-indicative whatsoever. I could see Datisi giving him a null read, as there are some things about Salad on D1 that I liked, but also some things I didn't. But a townread, I'm not so sure.

Datisi -

null

Salad -

Leaning scum

Norway, Naerys

Also have to address these two together. No problem with him whatsoever on D1. On D2, him starting to suspect Datisi based on the sole fact that Datisi didn't want the Mason to claim I don't understand. The vote-unvote on Datisi I also didn't like. Let's proceed to the Naerys townread then, that's the key point here. Naerys had a bad start, imo. 174 I particularly do not like. Overall, not impressed by her D1. D2: quick to suspect Datisi for no good reason, quick to vote Salad as well, based solely on the evidence from D1 instead of questioning him first. Proceeds to reconsider because... reasons, I guess? So, in general, does the Norway TR on Naerys make sense? No. Why did Norway proceed to vote Naerys after townreading her for so long? I don't know.

Norway -

null

Naerys -

Leaning Scum

Map Wolf

D1 was okay, except some stuff, such as his lingering vote on my slot or him voting my slot along with Non in the first place. D2, though, he's basically non-existent. Overall, not a lot to go off of but from what I have as information currently:

Map Wolf -

Leaning Scum

Non Imh

Town, solely because if she was not the Mason the real Mason should've claimed by now, I find. Her overall play I don't like.

Non Imh -

Town

To all three of my scumreads: What are your thoughts about the game right now? Reads, anything else you want to share? And given that we're 28 pages in I would like a more thorough answer, not shotgun reads or something. I think it's not much to ask.

The same goes for Non, now that I think about it. Look alive.

writes a lot about the townies, writes barely anything about his scumbuddy (and about the mason claim)

i need to check the other game too because one game does not meta make, and scum does sometimes switch up their play, but
it's intriguing at the very least

ok, i skimmed the first half of the iso in the other scumgame, looked like some token distancing but nothing too serious

and no colourful readslist for me to compare smfh

this is what ive been trying to talk about for days........

[Datisi]

like, correct me if i've missed anything, but the closest thing to an explenation of meg's towniness is "they're more aloof as scum" in 1144. and i usually hate going "please explain every single thought you've ever had", but i really don't understand how you came to the conclusion of meg's play being so strongly towny?

i thought i got into it but basically when meg and i got into that heated 1v1 on Day 1 basically while i felt they were incredibly frustrating, they ultimately really believed all the stuff that they were saying and scum basically rarely gets into a tiff like that. they went from aggressively provoking ari to aggressively provoking me and scum just doesnt play that way. i dont know how to explain it futher its just that sometimes when you get into a big argument with someone you just get the sense you *know* theyre town

i also thought the claim was believable and made sense as a town role in the setup not that it matters

how does this compare / coexist with 739?

[scamper]

this is the closest thing he gives to a readslist in 1991:

Spoiler:

Subject: Newbie 1991 | Battletoads | Endgame

Caught up with the posts I had missed.

I'm liking FF more and more, I think he's one of the players that is more actively trying to solve while also bringing some new ideas to the table, for example 315 and 376.

Emperor I don't mind as much as well now that he's more active, too.

I didn't like Teacher's push on Hunter as pointed out in 328, and I don't think 363 helps, either, although I will admit that B and C from that post are valid points, imo. Would like to see how Hunter will respond.

Hunter I still TR.

Also, I'm not making a decision until Dragon gets replaced, so:

@Penguin: I would also like an extension

i bolded the part about his scumbuddy

[scamper]

like, correct me if i've missed anything, but the closest thing to an explenation of meg's towniness is "they're more aloof as scum" in 1144. and i usually hate going "please explain every single thought you've ever had", but i really don't understand how you came to the conclusion of meg's play being so strongly towny?

i thought i got into it but basically when meg and i got into that heated 1v1 on Day 1 basically while i felt they were incredibly frustrating, they ultimately really believed all the stuff that they were saying and scum basically rarely gets into a tiff like that. they went from aggressively provoking ari to aggressively provoking me and scum just doesnt play that way. i dont know how to explain it futher its just that sometimes when you get into a big argument with someone you just get the sense you *know* theyre town

i also thought the claim was believable and made sense as a town role in the setup not that it matters

how does this compare / coexist with 739?

i think if you look at the context at the time i was obviously really upset at meg still

once i got some distance from the argument i was able to clear my head

[scamper]

i have to go for a bit, hopefully you are around when i get back

[Datisi]

do you think there's a difference between meg's play in this game and meg's play in that game still then?

pedit: i'm working afternoons the next three days, which is going to be annoying since you both seem to be more active in my afternoons, but i'll probably shift my sleep schedule somewhat to accommodate for it (yes mafia is very important)

[Datisi]

also, so i don't forget: scamper, do you have any opinion on my ~self-towncase~ post in the hood?

[Datisi]

another thing that struck me as a possibility of phoenix's scumplay is not that he perma-scumleans his partners, it's that he mimics the thread's read on them (i'm assuming teacher was scumread in that game since he flipped day 1)

unfortunately, scamper was townread and coral was scumread at the time of his readslist, so this is not helpful >.>

[Datisi]

Hi! Checking in to say that I won't be around much at all tomorrow. I don't think I have any new opinions right now. I guess the only thing would be that I'm more and more thinking that it could just be Galron, as nearly everyone else seems to be achieving some level of towntelling.

My guess would be that it's one of Galron or Xayah but not both, alongside... Don or Datisi? I haven't thought about that too much but it feels reasonable

these posts edge toward galron being scum without directly pushing him, right as datisi is moving toward pressuring galron and the thread is starting to turn against him. it looks like your classic progression toward being willing to bus. 765 and 909 follow up on that.

but it feels very inorganic? the idea that he suddenly leapfrogged ahead of don/xayah in her eads and that *everyone* else is towntelling isnt really expanded upon, she just says it. its like she realized that was the only wagon likely to go through and had to position herself for it

i would like to see coral comment specifically on this post

as for the rest, i wanna reread some of it in context, and i gotta go get ready for work so i'll do that after i'm home tonight

[Datisi]

Hi! Checking in to say that I won't be around much at all tomorrow. I don't think I have any new opinions right now. I guess the only thing would be that I'm more and more thinking that it could just be Galron, as nearly everyone else seems to be achieving some level of towntelling.

My guess would be that it's one of Galron or Xayah but not both, alongside... Don or Datisi? I haven't thought about that too much but it feels reasonable

these posts edge toward galron being scum without directly pushing him, right as datisi is moving toward pressuring galron and the thread is starting to turn against him. it looks like your classic progression toward being willing to bus. 765 and 909 follow up on that.

but it feels very inorganic? the idea that he suddenly leapfrogged ahead of don/xayah in her eads and that *everyone* else is towntelling isnt really expanded upon, she just says it. its like she realized that was the only wagon likely to go through and had to position herself for it

i would like to see coral comment specifically on this post

as for the rest, i wanna reread some of it in context, and i gotta go get ready for work so i'll do that after i'm home tonight

[scamper]

do you think there's a difference between meg's play in this game and meg's play in that game still then?

i wish you had asked me this when meg was still unflipped...............

im not, like, super solid it is necessarily clear cut in terms of its differences in a way that can be explained but while meg in that game was underhanded and made typical sort of pushes that attacked people for cheap reasoning here they had reads that while absurd, they seemed to really want to stick to their guns on in spite of overwhelming thread pressure disagreeing with them on those reads

i think maybe its easier to explain my progression thought-wise, which is that when someone really irritates you in a game, you start to *want* them to be scum beyond all reason cuz you dont wanna believe that sort of thing cn come from town, and at the moment i was feeling very spiteful and wavered in my thoughts. but when you take a step back from the game and cool off and think

rationally

it starts to become clearer and from that point in time i realized its just very unlikely for meg to play scum that way since they get *so* much negative attention from pushing unpopular reads and very few players have the will or audacity to do such a thing

i hope that makes some semblance of sense

[scamper]

also, so i don't forget: scamper, do you have any opinion on my ~self-towncase~ post in the hood?

ill be honest, i looked at the first page of posts from coral when it was just her in the hood and decided it wouldnt be that useful so i hadnt read the whole thing

ill take a look now

[scamper]

im assuming 213 is the post u are referring to?

[Datisi]

yes

i wasn't sure if i'm allowed to say numbers on the hood pt as per the ruleset, but we're all in the hood so i guess whatever lmao

[Datisi]

i still kinda want an answer to "why didn't you better out your reasons for townreading meg yesterday like you did now", but i have a feeling i know what the answer is gonna be

[scamper]

its decent enough i suppose but it doesnt solidly sway me into being convinced you are town because of your progression on phoe/galron (i think its ~decent enough~ but am wary)


i'm reading open 857 now to compare and you had distancing/bussig votes on vulture and pp that were sort of underexplained. can you explain how that game is different to that one?

[Datisi]

i'd have to refamiliarize myself with open 857 bc that day 1 has been a while ago and also fuck that game

first obvious difference that comes to mind tho is that my bus on penguin happened only after it was sorta clear that townread people are pushing there (and i had the correct read that the cw was a mason, so penguin was more likely to go through), while here i was on much earlier than necessary i think

and there i made the bussing very flashy and attention grabby, because i knew i was gonna need towncred and to open avenues to push after his flip

i didn't do any of that here, this game is not how i bus

[scamper]

i still kinda want an answer to "why didn't you better out your reasons for townreading meg yesterday like you did now", but i have a feeling i know what the answer is gonna be

seemingly no one was interested and i didnt get asked specifically about it. no i didnt directly towncase meg but i came out saying "i think coral is scum because wxyz" and that i think your role and corals cannot exist in the same setup with don and have it pass review. i said i thought both of you were pocketed. none of this is a direct defense of meg but it should be sufficient to show that with 1 scum left i did not believe it was meg. i didnt really get feedback on that stuff except saying "no you're wrong" basically

if those arguments fall on deaf ears im not sure what else i can do. in theory i could pitch a fit and hijack the game and demand people follow me but thats not the ~vibe~ i am trying to go for on this account. at some point its just...if people are stuck on an idea it is very hard to convince them otherwise without making the game really unpleasant and it's not like i'm perfect at this game anyway.

idk, if i am scum this game i probably just say "maybe i'm wrong" and let it go through and don't try to crow about it too much. i think i did that a lot in the mini normal, i would sort of slyly shade someone and then let the town's imagination go wild and have them vote that person out without pushing them too much. i made a post going "my read on freedom is stale" and the town sort of went off to the races there.. but i basically never pulled an "i told you so!!" because people just reflexively dislike those sort of posts

[scamper]

another thing that struck me as a possibility of phoenix's scumplay is not that he perma-scumleans his partners, it's that he mimics the thread's read on them (i'm assuming teacher was scumread in that game since he flipped day 1)

unfortunately, scamper was townread and coral was scumread at the time of his readslist, so this is not helpful >.>

its hard to say with a data set of 2 but i think most newb-scum players (and even more moderately experienced players) tend to be very patternistic in their approach toward their partners, at least until they start getting punished for it

i did check teh game for context and while no one was voting teacher at that moment in time there was a general anti-teacher sentiment in the preceding pages so you are right on that point

idk, i'll check his posts in his scum pts to see if he says anything useful there

[Datisi]

it should be sufficient to show that with 1 scum left i did not believe it was meg.

it was sufficient to show you think meg is town, i'm just like. thinking a towncase of meg maybe would've been more useful than a scumcase of coral

maybe it wouldn't have been, idk

[scamper]

from 1976 it looks like hes *very* hands on and critical of his partner and is constantly pressing him to do things and picking at things he thins he finds suspicious which is kind of a typical scum pov thing where the mistakes of your partner are most apparent to you due to being informed. he posts a lot about how he believes he *has* to push on his partner. i pulled a few quotes but you can check the rest for yourself its a short read

Spoiler:

Subject: Newbie 1976 Mafia PT

Dude, you aren't trying to engage in the conversation. I don't know if that has to do with not wanting to make a bad move or something else but it's making you look suspicious. I would recommend rereading from the end of D1, seeing as that's when you stopped being so active, but more specifically the whole D2 as of now. The whole argument that is still taking place is the key point here. I'll not tell you what to say, you have to figure out that one by yourself, just ignore the fact that you're scum and play to find the best possible lynch for today from a Town perspective. I need the Map Wolf from early D1, actively trying to figure out what's going on in the game, asking questions, etc.

Subject: Newbie 1976 Mafia PT

You do realise that after your vote on Datisi I have to vote you, right?

Subject: Newbie 1976 Mafia PT

It would seem questionable otherwise, to say the least.

[scamper]

the 1991 pt isnt as interesting, but i think this bit was kinda interesting cuz phoenix shows a tendency to 'perspective lock' himself into scumreading his partner but doesn't really want to bus on day 1:

Spoiler:

Subject: Newbie 1991 | Battletoads | Mafia PT

Should I follow my own logic in the game, you are my only SR left except Dragon's slot.

I don't like this.

Subject: Newbie 1991 | Battletoads | Mafia PT

What are the chances I start a wagon by voting you...

Subject: Newbie 1991 | Battletoads | Mafia PT

I believe there was no other option at this point, sorry. :/

They are not sure of their votes. I believe you can convince them they're on the wrong person (even though they aren't ).

*sigh* I may've just lost us the game.

[scamper]

all of this is maybe reading a bit too deep into the tea leaves for someone who posted 15 times this game but i have been fixated on this read for multiple phases now

[Coral]

This is probably a minor point but before I get into more detailed responses, I noticed a few times people mentioning the NRG when considering the setup. Reminder that we're in the Micro queue, and although the setup is Normal, it was reviewed by Schadd, and not necessarily the whole NRG. I don't know if that affects any assumptions being made, but just in case.

[Datisi]

do you think there's a difference between meg's play in this game and meg's play in that game still then?

pedit: i'm working afternoons the next three days, which is going to be annoying since you both seem to be more active in my afternoons, but i'll probably shift my sleep schedule somewhat to accommodate for it (yes mafia is very important)

setups are never reviewed by the "whole" nrg

and if setup is normal, then it was reviewed up to normal standards, no matter which queue it's run in