Datisi's Café [game over!]

[fireisredsir]

bc this game doesn't have a postcap and larges can sometimes get kinda miserable without one, if d1 starts to get close to like idk 80-100 pages i suggest we simply yeet someone

who wants to join me on this mission

we need 10 more to sign the pact

VOTE: ausuka

[fireisredsir]

alright we have 2 votes for 50 i can work with that

vivax the mission is to avoid d1 thread bloat that will make the game unreadable and a slog and make everyone apathetic and want to die

the pact is that if the thread gets too big, we yeet someone

[fireisredsir]

(those are the people who played in datisi's previous large theme, ktane)

except im actually lukewarm in that game lore-wise so idk how that works, exactly

[fireisredsir]

i think of it like every day you get 100 cookies

you choose how many cookies you want to eat

the remaining cookies at the start of the night get put in the bank

at night if you have a role then you can use it by spending your banked cookies

and if town collectively banks too many cookies at once then maf get to shoot more people

then the next day you get 100 fresh cookies and do the same thing again. but your banked cookies stay (if you didn't spend them all)

i don't actually know if this makes it any more clear, but cookies are tastier than productivity

[fireisredsir]

i thought it was legit too tbh

[fireisredsir]

let's fucking go i'm back baby

VOTE: Ausuka

town

you wouldn't by any chance be trying to flatter me would you, peta? you know I love being called town you sly devil

yes absolutely what are you going to do about it

i feel like this post is actually AI, believe it or not

i haven't decided which direction yet though

hopefully town

[fireisredsir]

it was my reaction to the post and i wanted to share :>

[fireisredsir]

im already bored, that wore off fast

i think furtive is town

[fireisredsir]

i mean now we play the game

what's more likely

mr. ircher just guessed the ratio or he's a very informed doggo

Why suppose he's right?

Dude's not town but I hate slip arguments

this second line feels awk

[fireisredsir]

im already bored, that wore off fast

i think furtive is town

Why, do I remind you of me in The Turing Test?

yea, you feel very comfortable and loose in the same way

[fireisredsir]

yo so are you going to end up circling back to this or was this just busywork to look like you're doing something?

ill probably be thinking about it for a while yet but i don't think its gonna be super useful to talk about, but i can if you want ig

there's like a certain energy to some of peta's posts so far. feels like he's having fun ig. and i think that's probably meaningful. i felt it in panic room and i think i kinda scumread him for it there, and had a sort of initial gut reaction to it in the same way (felt almost like he was forcing himself to appear a certain way in thread? keeping up appearances?). and it isn't something ive noticed from him as town in recent games that ive seen so it felt suddenly different and perhaps meaningful

buuut he was town in panic room. and ive been reading some old games and i haven't found a scum game where i feel it in the same way (often more... down to business) so maybe it's just something that happens sometimes but not always

i also wanted to bring it up originally bc idk maybe people like ydra or klick or others would have opinions on the post i mentioned

[fireisredsir]

i could totally play this way as scum

i mean, i wouldn't, but i could

ik, it's not at all a matter of capability, but of what you want to do

[fireisredsir]

What are you going to do to solve this?

You could save a lot of words and say "I am uncertain on peta and need help."

That voluminous language makes it harder to read you.

idk probably think about it for a while longer and maybe eventually give up on it once there's more significant things to read people on than an early game vibe/energy tell

[fireisredsir]

VOTE: uncrowned

[fireisredsir]

my understanding is you have experience with uncrowned, is your feeling there based on knowing them?

i am not feeling the good vibes

[fireisredsir]

my understanding is you have experience with uncrowned, is your feeling there based on knowing them?

i am not feeling the good vibes

VOTE: uncrowned

interesting choice for a vanity considering it's on the one guy that called you out

out of interest, do these vibes also apply to furtive? if not, why?

didn't really feel like you had an actual interest in sorting me, felt like you were just checking a box on a list of things you're supposed to be doing in a mafia game. feels a little artificial

which is kinda how ive felt about a lot of your posting so far. it kinda reminds me of how i like to play scum actually, which maybe is why i noticed. it feels like you're playing with the goal of generating townreads on yourself and not with the goal of finding scum

does not apply to furtive, furtive seems towny

[fireisredsir]

vivax you are a mystical being and i wish i could see what it's like inside your brain

[fireisredsir]

Isn't Ircher yume?

Here's an example. Vivax is making these theories that 1) have no basis in reality and 2) serve no purpose in reading me or the rest of the game.

i don't really think this is scummy for vivax tbhs

[fireisredsir]

Isn't Ircher yume?

Here's an example. Vivax is making these theories that 1) have no basis in reality and 2) serve no purpose in reading me or the rest of the game.

i don't really think this is scummy for vivax tbhs

Okay, why not?

bc in previous town games of his that ive seen he often has theories that have no basis in reality and serve no purpose in reading anyone

im not really sure how to read him. maybe on whether he believes the things he's saying?

[fireisredsir]

from what i read of terminator where he was scum, i think he feels a little more focused and agenda-y as scum than he does as town? here i get light townvibes so far

pedit: i mean you can check past completed games and you will see examples of it almost immediately

[fireisredsir]

from like, a fear of being elimmed perspective? no.

from a "there's probably at least one scum on here" yeah I think so?

granted the activity level of the entire wagon is low but i doubt it's just all town chillin on there

i think andre is good out of them, everyone else im null to SLing on

this seems like a really weird thing for you to fixate on

why would there specifically be scum on the ydra wagon

what spawned this thought for you

[fireisredsir]

brings a tear to my eye tbh

i thought 50 was optimistic but i was willing to dream big

and now we're talking 30?? we've come so far. im proud of u all

[fireisredsir]

maybe a warm take but of the people who haven't posted since rvs group i think andres was the most scummy

[fireisredsir]

having looked at uncrowned's scumplay i don't really get why this is clearly town but i do kinda feel similar vibes from the town games as well, so idk maybe im wrong

kinda felt energized in the read by ydrasse joining once i voted and now feel slightly abandoned but maybe that's for the best

VOTE: titus

fine with an ircher flip btw, didn't really like his re-entry to the thread, wouldn't mind seeing another significant wagon or two tho

[fireisredsir]

I thought I'd do a 'big' post since people have expressed concern for game length.

also fwiw i think this game has been incredibly healthy so far in terms of being readable and maybe is even a little light on the content

so i wouldn't worry too much about it rn, don't feel like you have to limit yourself

[fireisredsir]

What are you seeing in Titus that makes you vote her

This looks like town!Titus to me

im not super confident but it kinda felt like she was putting on the "take control" hat earlier and her thoughts don't always seem like they make sense when you look at them on a deeper level

idk cause when ive played with town titus before she's been busy and mostly absent in the early game, while when she was scum she was a lot more engaged and trying to move the thread in the ways she wanted, so its hard for me to know exactly what active town titus looks like?

and im trying to keep in mind that im sure she has more active town games and probably more inactive scum games and those just happen to be the ones ive played in

but its still something thats been on my mind

[fireisredsir]

I thought I'd do a 'big' post since people have expressed concern for game length.

also fwiw i think this game has been incredibly healthy so far in terms of being readable and maybe is even a little light on the content

so i wouldn't worry too much about it rn, don't feel like you have to limit yourself

Yeah, this game has been fine actually, unlike the game that made me worried about day 1 in a large lol

*

war flashbacks to the 210 page day 1 of NQN2

*

yea lol i read bits and pieces of that and that was exactly what was on my mind when i wanted this to have a postcap

[fireisredsir]

This looks like town!Titus to me

It does. I don't remember much about scum-Titus but I think she makes a bit more of an effort to sound reasonable/make sense?

it kinda seems like her thoughts are surface level intended to sound reasonable tho? like she hasn't said anything super out there it's just that they don't feel like they quite click into a consistent mindset, like luke was saying

[fireisredsir]

Titus doesn't always make sense to other people but you can still see the thought process going on

I think it's particularly clear when you look for her takes on the wagons she doesn't want to join

which thought processes do you think are clear to see from her in this game?

[fireisredsir]

if you haven't read enough to remember what she's been saying then what made you say that it seemed like town!titus and that you think when titus is town you can clearly see her thought process?

[fireisredsir]

or other scumreads like fire/Klick.

go on

[fireisredsir]

About you specifically fire or both reads?

Everything you post feels reserved in a way that has been weirding me out for a while. Things like the hedgy read on uncrowned when they moved their attention away.

Or Sussing Titus and simultaneously giving the green light on Ircher as maybe scum maybe not.

The repeated noncommittal reads as you trying to avoid being accountable and I find it scummy.

the klick read seems like a hot take and i didn't see any mention of it in your iso, so i was curious about that as well

and uhh yea you're just gonna have to get used to that ig. i think its generally more of a thing for me as town (lower confidence), its easier to project confidence and towniness as scum when there's no need to be honest, but i might try to imitate it as scum so its probably nai tbh

[fireisredsir]

I've become so Americanised

the internet really does that to you

you kept your s instead of a z tho so you're not all the way gone

[fireisredsir]

i think jjh thought furtive meant in 633 that furtive also thought jjh was copying nero's reads while scumreading nero

however i think furtive was saying "you too?" as in he thought that jjh was copying furtive's reads while also scumreading furtive

[fireisredsir]

i mean so was he, you were both just talking past each other

look again, he's talking about your read on him

[fireisredsir]

i don't really get the mindset behind "hammer or move on" followed by "i want to vote RCE but don't want to dampen ircher wagon"

can you explain that more

specifically about the "or move on"

[fireisredsir]

like if "or move on" is an option youre ok with then why not explore that option

if you would rather just flip ircher then why propose moving on as an option

[fireisredsir]

didn't really feel like you had an actual interest in sorting me, felt like you were just checking a box on a list of things you're supposed to be doing in a mafia game. feels a little artificial

which is kinda how ive felt about a lot of your posting so far. it kinda reminds me of how i like to play scum actually, which maybe is why i noticed. it feels like you're playing with the goal of generating townreads on yourself and not with the goal of finding scum

does not apply to furtive, furtive seems towny

You hope others will townread you because of your reads, draw attention to them as a defence, and generally seem more preoccupied with ticking that "thing that town players do" box rather than using it as a tool to spur conversation and more accurately place people
At the base level, you appear to prioritise being townread over gaining information with which to eliminate scum.

i thought this was funny

probably not meaningful, but interesting how a description that i applied to uncrowned and then specifically say doesn't apply to furtive is later applied to furtive by someone else

[fireisredsir]

i don't really get the mindset behind "hammer or move on" followed by "i want to vote RCE but don't want to dampen ircher wagon"

can you explain that more

specifically about the "or move on"

Ircher looks like he might get eliminated here
I am satisfied with that outcome

It also looks possible that the wagon will dissolve and other wagons will form
I'm not as happy with that outcome because I think Ircher is a better elimination than we would likely get if things were to dissolve. But it is an acceptable outcome and one we can work to our advantage

What I DON'T want is 'let's leave Ircher at L-2 for a few days while we don't do other things and

then

get cold feet and vote elsewhere' (which does commonly happen)
Because the stagnation would kill momentum in what's currently an active and fun and highly-Klick-motivating game

im willing to throw my vote in the "will go to ircher if things move away and then struggle to return there" if that helps

but ok, that seems reasonable i think, and i at least understand your thought process more now

[fireisredsir]

i don't really get the mindset behind "hammer or move on" followed by "i want to vote RCE but don't want to dampen ircher wagon"

can you explain that more

specifically about the "or move on"

Who's this directed at? Did they answer? I can't find a requote on a first go.
Fire to townlock

it was directed at klick (i was referencing 643, which i was reminded of bc ydrasse commented on it just before)

they responded in 694 and i thought the response was p good

speaking of, RCE id still like to hear about your klick read

[fireisredsir]

i don't get why you question me, gets answers, ignore them, and then shift your vote from me to titus after ydrasse unvotes me

it's like you want to engage but then when you actually receive answers, you just go to something else while still throwing shade, like keeping your options open?

"idk why people think uncrowned is town because ive looked at his scumplay, but it also looks like his townplay" or whatever. it's just constant hedging and has been a theme of your play this game. your actual solidified reads are few and far between and it seems like you're leaving doors open to keep your play flexible, something i'd attribute much more as +scum. maybe it's the low confidence thing you're talking about, but this seems awfully non-committal

what

i thought your answers were fine and didn't continue to engage with them bc i thought they were fine and i didn't have anything further to say

i then voted elsewhere bc i thought you had been fine since then

i don't particularly scumread you anymore but i don't really understand the townreads either. you seem solidly in range of both alignments to me. there's some stuff that feels genuine, and some stuff that feels off

so... ??

i don't get what the issue is here. why is it weird that i unvoted you after not engaging with your answers? are you saying that you would have found it less weird if i continued voting you after not engaging with your answers? bc i don't believe that

[fireisredsir]

it kinda seems like her thoughts are surface level intended to sound reasonable tho? like she hasn't said anything super out there it's just that they don't feel like they quite click into a consistent mindset, like luke was saying

it's like you see opportunities to make comments but then not provided much follow up? like the titus vote in general doesn't feel super convincing

also, couldn't we apply this same logic to you? what makes your two slots different? up until your vote on her, you had very little to say about her so what changed? from what i'm aware of, her main string of posting had already occurred before your vote on me, and you didn't have a lot to say then

i was responding to a specific meta point that someone made, idk why it would apply to me

i had thought about her a bit previously but it wasn't my focus

i just am really confused what you're getting at with these posts and it's hard not to view them as very reach-y. i don't understand the issues that you seem to be having with my play

[fireisredsir]

I'd say Luke displays some characteristics you'd associate with a martyr mindset, but according to some, feeling of guilt being scum-indicative is somewhat of an unbased rumour

i think his responses to you do have a sort of self-focus to them? idk how to describe. insistence on being understood, maybe

anyway, it's p in line with what ive seen from town luke and i lean that way so far. i haven't seen scum luke in person tho, only from a distance

[fireisredsir]

i had a thought that scum peta prob doesn't make 439 about scum penguin and town peta is probably correct. klick also had him as top townread

so penguin can be town

[fireisredsir]

Time will tell, but I feel there‘s a good roster of hesitating people around Ircher. A town flip would throw my perception around though.

i thought we were waiting for bluebloodedtoffee to make an appearance and that's why there hasn't been a hammer yet

[fireisredsir]

so i've "been fine"

but some stuff "feels off"

that you still haven't engaged on

ok imma leave this for now this is getting nowhere lmao

yes, i do not engage with everyone about every point that i think feels off

sometimes i think it would be useful to do so, like if i could try to better understand a thought process or clarify a point or if i think asking about it could help me sort them in some way or if i want to pressure or if i want other people to look at the things im pointing out

sometimes none of those really apply

i don't think that me telling you that my gut reaction to some of your posts is that you're forcing your points a little bit and everything feels kinda... appeal-y? is going to be useful

id rather just let you do your thing for now and watch and see if i still feel that way after more things have happened

[fireisredsir]

I think the role is negative utility and doesn't really factor into my read either way

agree w this i think

[fireisredsir]

I was expecting JJH/Lukewarm/Mastina to die last night

were you expecting 3 kills or do you mean you expected [some amount of people] in that group to die?

[fireisredsir]

it might have only been 2 kills. BBT just seems really weird as a kill to me based on their lack of content, unless they're known to be a good player who just hadnt turned it on yet? i don't know them enough to know if that makes sense as a fearkill

i really would hope that nobody would spend enough productivity points to n1 hero shot vig but i also wouldn't be that surprised

nero and peta kills both make sense as NKs tho

[fireisredsir]

I like Ydrasse as town based on how things have progressed so far.

can you explain what made you think this? quoting the vc makes it seem like it was based on that but i don't really get it

[fireisredsir]

I would game that there’s one Scum in {Vivax, PenguinPower}. And mastina not dying is both expected and not a good sign.

why do you think penguin

[fireisredsir]

are you saying you don't think that it would be weird for mafia to nightkill BBT?

[fireisredsir]

was tempted to vote vivax but idk this kinda reminds me of turing test vivax (town) at the point where i voted him, where it just feels like he's seeing ghosts and just like... existing in a different plane of reality than the rest of us

i don't really get the impression that he fakes that from reading his scumgame but it's hard to judge since i haven't directly played in a game with it

like he still seems somehow unaware that what me and luke were talking about on page 2 had nothing to do with ircher and it feels like he's constructed a whole narrative in his head based on things that didn't even happen

[fireisredsir]

VOTE: titus

[fireisredsir]

i think i believe that claim

[fireisredsir]

earlier i thought vivax could be scum TMIing that the BBT kill was a vig kill, since he didnt seem to understand that me/furtive were talking from the perspective of thinking "this is a weird kill for mafia to make"

but in addition to thinking his play just feels like his towngame, i think its more likely that he is actually just a vig TMIing that BBT kill was a vig kill

[fireisredsir]

Hard disagree, to me both Peta and Nero were weird kills. Peta makes sense off the info Lukewarm gave, and Nero...idk, maybe him hinting he had some kind of scavenger role?
But scum seeing BBT play like that could assume he was hiding a good PR, and so he did. So why should it be weird, unless you knew the kills?

peta and nero are both strong and sometimes loud players who often have good reads. they're p common nightkills for scum to make. i don't think either were especially townread but im not really surprised to see them killed, and could mean they were on the right track

[fireisredsir]

we had such a lovely d1 can we please PLEASE not do the thing where we quote our own posts for emphasis

[fireisredsir]

Look my view of the game just got blown up. The two Town that died yesterday I was positive on, particularly Nero Cain

can you expand on this, i don't quite follow

[fireisredsir]

im caught up but p out of it rn

i think this looks more like town titus than d1 did so i feel better there ig

i do think it's p possible that scum hard bussed once they saw the slip and one of the other main possibilities would be luke, but idk i just don't see his approach to the game as scummy at all. re-eval on vivax seemed fairly natural with just the appropriate amount of lingering pride before switching away. will try to read more closely and compare to scum games when i have more of a brain but my brief impression was that he was kinda a overwhelm with Goodposting and lots of content scum player, and didn't always match tone in the way i think he has here

one issue i do have with luke ig is i don't understand the ausuka townread, i don't think the roden interaction is remotely clearing and besides that i don't think she's been very towny yet. the lampshading of "yes im playing differently, it's on purpose!" felt kinda off to me

VOTE: ausuka

[fireisredsir]

also i guess i should say that i don't really trust mastina at all, not super interested in sheeping reads there

roden seems alright so far. the claim has a couple weird things about it but i think that it could come from town. i don't really want to get into that discussion too much yet due to reasons, but the play outside of that seems maybe a little scummy

ig the main reason i don't want to vote there is bc of mastina, but maybe that's dumb, idk

[fireisredsir]

im caught up but p out of it rn

i think this looks more like town titus than d1 did so i feel better there ig

i do think it's p possible that scum hard bussed once they saw the slip and one of the other main possibilities would be luke, but idk i just don't see his approach to the game as scummy at all. re-eval on vivax seemed fairly natural with just the appropriate amount of lingering pride before switching away. will try to read more closely and compare to scum games when i have more of a brain but my brief impression was that he was kinda a overwhelm with Goodposting and lots of content scum player, and didn't always match tone in the way i think he has here

one issue i do have with luke ig is i don't understand the ausuka townread, i don't think the roden interaction is remotely clearing and besides that i don't think she's been very towny yet. the lampshading of "yes im playing differently, it's on purpose!" felt kinda off to me

VOTE: ausuka

How does this not comment on Roden or SS?

i was getting there, at least on roden

SS i failed to read successfully in my previous time i had to do so, so i don't feel super confident, but i did at least correctly strongly townread him early, and so far he is lacking the things that i correctly townread him for (not fact checking this rn, but to my memory at least)

i think he could be scum but he's a player that i have trouble feeling good about a read on bc of playstyle

[fireisredsir]

mastina you are aware that there is a sample pm in the opening posts, right?

it really seems like you are not aware of that

it would be p funny if none of the scumteam read it

[fireisredsir]

i just gave them?

[fireisredsir]

1405 and 1407

literally right above you

[fireisredsir]

Anyone know what‘s with Ydrasse? It‘s like she‘s experiencing realtime shrinkage as the game progresses

she did say in sign-ups that she wanted a hydra to "drag her limp corpse around", so i think its not too unexpected

i was kinda watching her d1 with some slight suspicion, some of her posting reminded me of panic room where she was scum and fooled me p well, but i know peta caught on to her there pretty quickly and had her as a townlean here, so im putting some trust in that

[fireisredsir]

one issue i do have with luke ig is i don't understand the ausuka townread, i don't think the roden interaction is remotely clearing and besides that i don't think she's been very towny yet. the lampshading of "yes im playing differently, it's on purpose!" felt kinda off to me

I mean, this was in response to peta talking about my meta, can you elaborate on what exactly about it you find odd

off, not odd. the difference between your 534 and 702 was what stuck out to me, and then 704

like saying it's intentional but not giving a reason feels like you're implying it's more of an active strategic choice, but then later when you elaborate to someone else you give specific reasons that kinda more imply it's due to factors outside of your control? but then you follow it up with again sort of implying there's a strategic side to it. it feels like you're self-conscious of there being a difference in playstyle and wanting to make sure it's explained, but the mindset that you have in your different explanations doesn't feel consistent

and following this thread, i think now your 1419 is also weird, bc it's dismissing a read on you by framing the accusation as furtive not believing that you're genuinely busy with uni when... that's not the point at all, and when you talked about it earlier you didn't seem to be saying that was your only reason behind a playstyle difference. so to bring it up here as a response feels ???

[fireisredsir]

@Titus sorry if I missed it but I'd like you to explain your Ircher read before the whole frozen thing?

Was weak based on VCA. I voted because I TRed the other two wagons and wanted to test a theory that scum were protecting Ircher.

while we're on the topic, why did you lean town on ydrasse in that same post, 154? you said "based on how things have progressed so far"

[fireisredsir]

Um, I don't recall ever saying it's strategic at all, I said I signed up knowing that I wasn't going to wallpost or hyperpost this game, which is different to the recent meta people like peta have had on me during the summer holidays

And I mean furtive did explicitly say that he didn't believe that it was because of my IRL so I really do not have any idea what you're talking about

Like in what way does being busier not play into a casual playing style

That idea just doesn't make sense

534 uses the word "intentional". which means you had intent. going from that to "im busier and the game is bigger" doesn't feel consistent at all to me

furtive never said he didn't believe you were busier? he said that he scumread the posting that you did have

being busier would probably lead to a more casual playstyle, yes, but he gave several reasons in that post and specifically said his scumread wasn't due to your activity level

[fireisredsir]

534 uses the word "intentional". which means you had intent. going from that to "im busier and the game is bigger" doesn't feel consistent at all to me

I mean it is intentional. I am intentionally not putting as much time into mafia to fit my schedule better

mmm i dunno i just don't really buy that you phrase it that way if that's what you mean

like why be coy about it

[fireisredsir]

i think that you phrased it that way to make peta back off and it worked, and now that he's gone you don't have any issues walking it back

[fireisredsir]

I mean you linked to posts from day 1 which you claimed showed that I was walking it back so that doesn't seem like what you actually believe?

providing additional reasons for why you would be playing differently, while it did draw my attention to you seeming to not have a consistent mindset, is v different than walking the original statement back completely and saying that you were in no way intending to imply that you were playing differently for strategic reasons

and im p sure if you had done that d1 then peta would have jumped on you for it

[fireisredsir]

I mean you linked to posts from day 1 which you claimed showed that I was walking it back so that doesn't seem like what you actually believe?

providing additional reasons for why you would be playing differently, while it did draw my attention to you seeming to not have a consistent mindset, is v different than walking the original statement back completely and saying that you were in no way intending to imply that you were playing differently for strategic reasons

and im p sure if you had done that d1 then peta would have jumped on you for it

except I never said that and obviously saying that I'm busier is basically the same thing as what I'm saying now so ???

It really feels like you're making this up. I understand why someone would be suspicious of me in a vacuum but this argument feels like you started at the premise "ausuka is scum" and then made up reasoning to reach that viewpoint. Like, why would I use different strategies for targeting peta - someone I have never even played with outside marathon games - than anyone else???

ok my initial reaction was to be frustrated with this, but after sitting back and thinking on it, it feels like it's possible that i might just be reading a lot more into some of your phrasing than you were probably intending?

and the fact that you seem to still not be understanding the nuance makes me think you might actually just be town bc idk if this is the approach that you take if you were scum who does actually know what im talking about

ill drop it for now ig

VOTE: RCE

[fireisredsir]

Suggests a blatant denial of vca info since at least Ydrasse and mastina are universal TRs.

why do you think these are universal TRs?

[fireisredsir]

i thought titus' 204 was strange and awkward and her general approach to the day did feel pretty... positional? like she was more focused on controlling gamestate and stuff. and i thought that was p scummy. and even with the ircher flip, peta dying made me kinda want to sheep his read there even more

but i kinda thought her 1471 was p convincing and made her play make a lot more sense

idk maybe im dumb and too easily swayed

for titus in the past ive looked for like... solving under the hood and i felt like she had more of that on d2 so far. she also has seemed kinda unaware of the gamestate in a way that i wouldn't really expect from scum, when i saw her as scum she knew exactly what was going on and where she should push to respond to that

[fireisredsir]

hmm ig actually maybe the 1471 narrative doesn't quite track since she seemed more focused on SS at first

[fireisredsir]

+1 just claim your productivity costs.

Like - no reason to hide them at this point.

+1 as well

i don't really see the stubbornness as especially scummy bc ive seen roden do the "well now i am not doing it" penguin meme as town before

but i also in turing test wrongly ended up going back on my correct scumread partly bc i felt some of those same vibes

and i don't really think the motivation for it here checks out. comparing yourself to vivax and mastina doesn't make sense here bc you are basically saying "i would rather die than fullclaim" which is just ???

[fireisredsir]

feels like a lot of people have kinda dropped off d2

still waiting for rce to come back and do things

[fireisredsir]

i don't really see the stubbornness as especially scummy bc ive seen roden do the "well now i am not doing it" penguin meme as town before

I am a meme?!?!

yay

Spoiler: it sure looks like you

[fireisredsir]

Is Roden known for being uncooperative/obstinate as town?

i don't really see the stubbornness as especially scummy bc ive seen roden do the "well now i am not doing it" penguin meme as town before

I am a meme?!?!

yay

Hmm. Fire, can you link that?

Spoiler:

You both say it's me.

Neither of you suspect each other.

Neither of you show any real urgency in trying to solve the other.

Yet you don't want to vote me.

we have a whole day phase why would we be urgent? like i said i plan to read and talk and yes i am considering the possibility that it could be std, why would we vote immediately?

Because one of you is just waiting for the other to vote me.

which of us is scum?

Take a guess.

you can look at other nearby posts for context, but in coalition elo he started off doing this whole weird blustery thing where he was acting like one of us was for sure scum and then wouldn't say who when asked about it

it's not exactly the same but there were a few other points in there where it felt like he was being very difficult to work with out of stubbornness and it made it hard for me to see him being town

some aspects of this felt similar. im not sure if he even realizes that he's being difficult when it happens so i don't really think its very AI

[fireisredsir]

Like...You consider a lot of things at once in parallel, but don‘t really point and shoot. I hope this doesn‘t come across as mischaracterizing, but it‘s what keeps me sus on you.

This is accurate; Lukewarm is missing the "A-HA!!!" factor.

Making the cases he has is not an a-ha! factor; making the cases he has is having predetermined the outcome and writing the evidence to fit that narrative.

this is exactly what your approach looks like tho

it seems like you decided the reads you wanted to push on like page 1 and have just been insisting that everything aligns with your view of things ever since

idk if you're scum for it bc you've done the same thing as town before but idk why you would expect anyone to take you seriously

[fireisredsir]

Similarly, I like to meme about being a scum killer but in truth my accuracy level is never as high in reality as it is in my head. I genuinely think all the scum are basically known to me, but if it were truly so foolproof that my reads weren't wrong, I wouldn't need to actually hide/obscure all my reasons, now, would I? I'm holding back specifically because I am aware that I could be wrong on my reads, and just like every time I'm the first kill is a surprise, me actually being right on all my scumreads would be a surprise.

But I have the scumreads so I'm not going to not push them just out of fear that I'll be wrong. So if I see someone who looks like scum...I'mma push them as scum.

i mean ok this kind of answers that, but like you are expressing basically the same level of certainty for all of your reads

and i know your read on me is wrong (or you're scum)

so when i see you having the same level of certainty on something else and basically just saying "im right on this. i won't explain why, but trust me", im not really very inclined to do so

[fireisredsir]

The cases make efforts to ignore inconveniences that get in the way of the point being right. They manipulate things in a disingenuous way lacking honesty, by exaggerating points in favor of the viewpoint and downplaying the points in opposition to the viewpoint.

this is like the first point of substance you've made that's actually kinda clicked with me. i can see what you're talking about

but what about that do you think is specific to luke being scum? you've talked about how it's a tell specific to luke, so that means you think luke doesn't do this as town?

ive felt that luke can be kinda performative in his casemaking before as town as well, they can feel overly constructed in a way, and can come across as manipulative. ive suspected him for it (wrongly) the first time i played with him, and i used it against him when i was scum and he was town. to me it just kinda seems like it's a luke thing

[fireisredsir]

I'm still thinking over what his play today indicates, I'm aware I did make a mistake at first in his role and that at least partially explains the push on me, but at the same time people said scum Roden is often Angry so like... idk

i think it's closer to the opposite?

ari in turing test said:

Spoiler:

Subject: Open 861: The Turing Test [game over]

What game were we both in where I was scum? Or is that just a general read?

in the coalition game you were significantly more townie when pressured. Coalition Micro

similarly in Fusion Upick

when you're scum you tend to kind of don't have that kind of edge/angry tone in your voice.

You don't have the same kind of edge when defending yourself and it feels like you're not quite really here and more importantly you don't feel like you want to be here.

SCP
Radio Buzz


I understand from your last completed mini normal[2276] you were fustrated over being nightkilled on n1 and perhaps not wanting to be nightkilled would be a valid explanation for maybe not being as townie as you have been in the past but this game is not really that sort of game.

in this game, scum can't just shoot the towniest townies - it would be quite suicidal of them to do so because it would make the 1v1s quite lopsided, they have to actually shoot in the murky middle so to speak, as a result you should be trying to be as townie as possible but it doesn't feel like you're enthusiastic about this game at all.

and in that game they were scum together but i think she was being honest about the difference (i know at least one townperson agreed with it) bc she was encouraging him in the scum pt to play to what she was saying his town meta was, of having more passion

im sure he's capable of faking that but i think in general its true that he has more of that frustrated/impassioned vibe as town

[fireisredsir]

firing

Roden [5]:

mastina, Andresvmb

,

Klick

, Malakittens,

Ydrasse

Titus [4]:

Roden, Lukewarm

,

Vivax

,

Ausuka

Hmm I wonder which of these wagons is scumdriven?

Just a thought.

im sure you'll be happy to hear that i was just debating whether i wanted to vote titus

[fireisredsir]

but what about that do you think is specific to luke being scum?

Because Luke is thorough and meticulous as town and absolutely methodical. His towngame is well-thought-out and doesn't make the ""mistakes"" in narrative he has made this game.

could you point out any specific examples of mistakes in narrative that he's made?

[fireisredsir]

but what about that do you think is specific to luke being scum?

Because Luke is thorough and meticulous as town and absolutely methodical. His towngame is well-thought-out and doesn't make the ""mistakes"" in narrative he has made this game.

could you point out any specific examples of mistakes in narrative that he's made?

I already have; it's in his Titus/mastina cases. I'm kinda clocking out of mafia for the moment right now so don't really feel like rehashing it again but I've made my points on why Titus is town here and don't feel like reiterating them again.

i just reread your posts after 1505 and i don't see any that address the points he made there? the closest you come is 1672 but that isn't really related

i still don't see what mistakes in narrative you've pointed out

you've said why you think titus is town but not why luke's points come from scum

actually that post has a lot of words but all you're really saying in it is that you don't personally believe that titus would diverge from her meta

which okay, fine, but how does that meaningfully engage with any of the points made?

[fireisredsir]

she has been very vocal about thinking luke is scum, yes

im asking about a specific point she made because i would like to understand what the basis for it is, since it almost but not quite made sense to me where the other points didn't really do anything for me

[fireisredsir]

i just read the iso and didn't find it, thats why im asking about it

[fireisredsir]

the a-ha factor point is reasonable ig, i wanted to know what specific mistakes in narratives he had tho

[fireisredsir]

luke im confused, whats the difference between what she says in the upick post-game and the first paragraph of that same 1748 in this game?

maybe im missing something but i don't get the disconnect

[fireisredsir]

hi drunk titus, you think luke is scum? why?

[fireisredsir]

why are you confident in mastina town

[fireisredsir]

i read a bit of tft but not enough to know what she's talking about, vivax do you?

[fireisredsir]

ok looks like in tft titus got like shot multiple times and didn't die? was she like super bulletproof or something

[fireisredsir]

luke im confused, whats the difference between what she says in the upick post-game and the first paragraph of that same 1748 in this game?

maybe im missing something but i don't get the disconnect

I'm gonna spoil this, because the only way to make it clearer is long winded, and probably no one but Fire actually wants the long winded answer.

Spoiler:

In the upick game she said that she has a reputation for bussing her scum buddies, because she views herself as always the weak link, and as such, "why wouldn't she bus?" -- this is her resting, natural view of her position wrt to her partners for the last 3 years. "I am the weak link, I might as well bus to make my partners look good."

In 1748, she is instead claiming that she "most certainly wouldn't have valued Ircher's life above my own and therefore had no reason to bus him."

Her stance on Ircher was settled in posts 30, 104, 105, 109.

She is trying to claim that she would not have written those posts as scum This Game, because she would not value Ircher over herself This Game.

As of post 109, there is no intrinsic reason her, as hypothetical!scum, to have viewed her value comparative to Ircher's as substantially different then her Standard View. No one was pushing him for the TMI yet, he was not a serious wagon.

So, she is either, making an argument just for the sake of clearing herself, that does not actually reflect the game state of when she made the post.

Or, there is an Implied Reason that she would value herself Higher then her Standard View of herself as scum or she would value Ircher Less then her Standard View of her partners as scum.

ok i think i follow

the part that confused me was where she said this:

I don't bus my scumbuddies when I know that I need to be kept alive;
I heavily bus my scumbuddies when I believe that they need to be kept alive, but *I* do not. (How does this work? Well, basically, I never plan on being the lategame scum; I always assume I get eliminated. If I get eliminated while laying reads that clear my scumbuddies, then I further my wincon even in death.

and i thought that was more or less the same as "i bus because i don't endgame as scum". but your point is that normally she takes it a step further and says that she usually the weakest link, not just someone who will get eliminated, and would usually value any standard scum's life above hers? so the fact that she's saying she wouldn't have here is a significant deviation from her usual play?

[fireisredsir]

Demi is my crush. So hot emotionally and physically but I hate tatoos on anyone else

drunk titus is hilarious i would have never expected to hear this from you

[fireisredsir]

hello im back, couldn't play for a bit, sorry

still kinda out of it but ill try to catch up a bit. or tomorrow ig

[fireisredsir]

nevermind this is a fuckinf chore

VOTE: mastina

i think this is the most protein thing we can do and i literally dont care atp goodnight

[fireisredsir]

lmao protein

pro town

get your protein everyone

[fireisredsir]

I would imagine Ausuka is a vig shot

I think she was viably in the miselimination pool and unless scum saw something they thought was a crumb or something I doubt they take that shot

i mean i thought she was scum for what i thought was heavily softing a PR and then later walking it back so it's def possible scum saw the same thing i did

i did figure out eventually that i was misinterpreting but it did really look that way at first to me

[fireisredsir]

anyway i think mastina is probably scum but we can go for titus first ig

im slightly concerned about giving scum!mastina what she wants in terms of living to d4 but at this point maybe it's worth it for the chance that she's town

[fireisredsir]

And honestly, I intend to spend most of my time trying to figure out whether Titus makes sense as an execution here, because odds are that they’ll face immense pressure (way too many votes have piled on there both yesterday and today, and there’s been a lot of discussion about the slot). Klick just… isn’t going to get executed over several other suspicious slots today. So your push seems way out of place to me.

do you think it's a bad idea to look in multiple places? i don't get this

[fireisredsir]

"way too many votes have piled on there [for her to not be pressured again today]" i think

[fireisredsir]

LMAO

[fireisredsir]

im going to wait for someone smart to tell me what this means

i don't think titus' claim makes sense tho

[fireisredsir]

if it succeeded then why did ydra get a result that titus doesn't have a PT?

[fireisredsir]

if it succeeded then why did ydra get a result that titus doesn't have a PT?

I didn't have it yet. I should soon.

... you get it during the day?

[fireisredsir]

Hi y'all, I'm gonna be fully transparent with this:

I am setting my productivity to 0% today.

You may call that anti-town as much as you want; you can consider it suspicious as much as you want. Which is fair. The scum extra kill mechanism is ludicrously strong and I am fully aware of the risks.

But I have very strong reasons for doing so. I promise that by D4, you'll know why.
I won't go 0% more than once.

But for ~reasons~ I need to go 0% today. Let's just say I'll become a scumhunting GOD.

Full transparency, part 2/3:

I am setting my productivity to 50% today.
On D3, I will be setting my productivity to 75%.
On D4, I will go to 100% and fully explain why I have done what I am doing.

I have a plan. I legit think that I can break the game with this and I promise that I will explain everything on D4 and explain why I have done what I am doing.

It'll all make sense then, and the scum won't know what hit them.

Remember when I said that there would be a big huge reveal on D4?

...I lied.

PARTIAL CLAIM: I am an investigative role and I have a result indicating fireisredsir is scum.

VOTE: fireisredsir

I'm not claiming what the result is until

after

fireisredsir claims here.

I'll be fullclaiming once fire has been locked into a claim.

LOL no you don't, hard counterclaim

im a reddit moderator, i can check if someone carried out a night action. i used it on mastina both nights and both nights she did not carry out an action. i just triple checked my results to make sure

25% + 5% each use

VOTE: mastina

[fireisredsir]

mastina and titus are literally both scum lmao

[fireisredsir]

yes please do tell what is your investigative result

[fireisredsir]

Because I'd bet the farm on mastina being town.

aren't you claiming that you would literally be dead if she wasn't

[fireisredsir]

like, your claimed role has 3 outcomes-
If you target scum who is not targeted by anyone else, you die.
If you target someone who was targeted by someone else regardless of alignment, nothing happens.
If you target town who is not targeted by anyone else, you get a PT with your target

oh i misunderstood this ig? it cancels everything?

[fireisredsir]

Because I'd bet the farm on mastina being town.

aren't you claiming that you would literally be dead if she wasn't

You visited her. So I can't be up to locktown because you did. Still, I'd bet the farm.

um ok do you show up as having a PT or not?

[fireisredsir]

if titus had a pt i would be aware of it and be able to join it

I didn't actually have one. I just count as having one. Basically, I was a miller for Ydrasse and didn't know it.

Counters my ability to possibly clear 2 people.

how would you be a miller

her claim is that she can join non-factional PTs if anyone has them

[fireisredsir]

also what does "count as having one" even mean in this context

[fireisredsir]

I believe that retroactively coming up with reasonable explanation for herself is one of the strongest parts of Titus's scum game. I think that it plays into her strenghts as a real life trial lawyer, and also plays into the idea that Town Titus's actions are often considered Moon Logic.

remembering this rn

[fireisredsir]

LOL

[fireisredsir]

man i just wanna join someone’s pt

that does sound like a p fun role

[fireisredsir]

so looking back I may have misread that

Yup. It's a complicated role.

I'm off my lunchbreak.

Let's lim Fire today and Luke tomorrow.

p sure he was saying that he misread peta's role and you actually wouldn't even be a miller for him so your "count as one" doesn't even make sense lol

[fireisredsir]

but she's claiming an investigative result and she is literally lying bc i checked her both nights and she hasn't done anything

[fireisredsir]

isn't mastina's like whole thing that she hates lying about claims

[fireisredsir]

i am so good with using prs

it was a nutty play i love it

[fireisredsir]

Which is why the result was still damning. If he had claimed commuter or ascetic then it'd have been a travesty of town errors, but with him claiming to have tracked me two nights in a row when he explicitly had no reason to do so and not seen me visit either night means he is highly likely to be bullshitting here.

why would i not check you lmao you were the only one telegraphing a strong role and i wanted to see if you were legit or not

[fireisredsir]

btw reminder that mastina said she 100% guarantees scum has no roleblockers or anything powerful when now that she's fullclaimed it's clear that she had zero reason to believe that

explain why you said that?

[fireisredsir]

I also feel like it is good design to make peta's traffic analyst have a false guilty, so that it is not just a cop.

Roden's role is real, but it ain't town.

You've proven that Roden's role is real, but Roden's role being real was never the question. Roden's role is, explicitly, real.

It is also, explicitly, a scum role this game. For reasons the scumteam has no clue about, but which would be obvious with a massclaim.

If you were modding a 21 player and you gave Mafia 4 players (not confirmed), would you give 2 Mafia useless abilities?

As a matter of fact, yes!

I'm not going to out the why, but I'll say this:

The scum are

not

going to have any strong scum roles: Ninja, Strongman, Roleblocker, Rolecop, etc.
100% guaranteed they have NOTHING considered a strong scum role.

I'm not explaining this but I guarantee it's true.

you can explain it now!

[fireisredsir]

It may look like there's an obvious solution but I'm gonna go against the grain again and say that literally every claim that has been made could theoretically coexist and all be town

This is true, but it would require town-Titus to fumble her role very hard.

Ideally Titus just flips RB and then we can kill fire afterward.

and SS is the third, neat

[fireisredsir]

for why

incredibly convenient claim, if they know mastina was RB'd and thus technically didn't take any action.

??

mastina is the one who altered her claim after hearing my results

[fireisredsir]

my bet is actually that scum have a watcher or something and she originally claimed to bait PRs to target her, and when they got a watcher result that i visited, and i started the day saying she was scum, she suspected i had some sort of guilty and tried to get out in front of it

[fireisredsir]

but she's claiming an investigative result and she is literally lying bc i checked her both nights and she hasn't done anything

To what do I owe the pleasure of being visited two nights in a row when I said on D1 that the reveal would be on D4? When I said on D2 that I'd go 50% on D2 and 75% on D3 and 100% on D4? (Obv was a lie, will be at 100% now and every day future since I already fired my shot.)

Could it perhaps be that you knew that I couldn't have a result on you because of factional knowledge?

I don't believe there's more town killstopping power, or if there is, that they just so

happened

to have targeted me last night.

And scum aren't going to have an ungated roleblocker.

So a lack of result on you is still effectively a guilty, because

something caused my action to fail

, and that something is almost certainly scum-related.

Like, say, a scum rolestopper rolestopping fireisredsir.

i suspected that most likely based on your claim, if it was true and you were town, you wouldn't act n1, and would act either n2 or n3, or both. so i checked n1 -- because if you had acted n1, and then later claimed that you hadn't, that means you're scum who actually had a different role, or you were carrying out the kill

so the n1 result checked out, but i still didn't really trust you on play, and so i decided it was worth checking again n2 due to the possibility that you would reveal d3

[fireisredsir]

my bet is actually that scum have a watcher or something and she originally claimed to bait PRs to target her, and when they got a watcher result that i visited, and i started the day saying she was scum, she suspected i had some sort of guilty and tried to get out in front of it

huh.

this is actually a reasonable answer.

But that makes the scum team goon + goon + watcher + Ircher's fairly useless role, which feels wrong.

why are there two goons?

[fireisredsir]

Fire, did you expect town-mastina to take an action N1 and/or N2? Also, did you soft your N1 result anywhere?

answered the first part already. i didn't really have any conclusive result (just that she didn't act) so idk what i would have softed, there wasn't anything to say

[fireisredsir]

I made it clear I wasn't acting until N3-at-earliest, and the proof that I wasn't acting would be found in a genuine N1 result on me.

and i wanted to see if that was the case or not? who else do you think i should have checked?

[fireisredsir]

also i guess i should say that i don't really trust mastina at all, not super interested in sheeping reads there

roden seems alright so far. the claim has a couple weird things about it but i think that it could come from town. i don't really want to get into that discussion too much yet due to reasons, but the play outside of that seems maybe a little scummy

ig the main reason i don't want to vote there is bc of mastina, but maybe that's dumb, idk

is this really a post made by someone who just got a result indicating mastina is more likely to be telling the truth?

thats not how i interpreted the result. i didn't trust her before i checked and i didn't trust her after either. the result was reasonable if she was town but it didn't really change my view at all

[fireisredsir]

you were the only one telegraphing a strong role

This is not a town mindset btw.

I promise that by D4, you'll know why.

Especially since my

very first post

said

by Day Four

. (Btw that wording is one of the true 'crumbs. I didn't say ON D4, I said BY D4, and D3 is by D4. )

why is it not a town mindset? explain

you made an elaborate claim that seemed to indicate you had significant power. you made it very clear that you would be revealing your role by d4. that seemed like easily the most useful place to use my role, bc then once you do reveal your role i can see if my info matches what you claimed

and now we see that it literally doesn't match your initial claim and you had to change your claim afterwards so obviously it was a good idea lmao

[fireisredsir]

thats not how i interpreted the result. i didn't trust her before i checked and i didn't trust her after either. the result was reasonable if she was town but it didn't really change my view at all

so you assumed the scumteam was mostly goons? or what

why mostly? why couldn't just mastina be a goon

[fireisredsir]

my bet is actually that scum have a watcher or something and she originally claimed to bait PRs to target her, and when they got a watcher result that i visited, and i started the day saying she was scum, she suspected i had some sort of guilty and tried to get out in front of it

huh.

this is actually a reasonable answer.

But that makes the scum team goon + goon + watcher + Ircher's fairly useless role, which feels wrong.

why are there two goons?

in your scenario:
Mastina did nothing.
Someone did the kill

That someone is then also a goon, or has a role so useless they decided not to use it in order to set up this gambit.

oh i missed this

i didn't really realize that was how things worked tbh

[fireisredsir]

ok actually the multitasking thing makes some sense i didn't consider that

UNVOTE:

ig it could be mastina is town who got roleblocked but idk i really don't think she's town here

ill be back later

[fireisredsir]

i thought that scum had prob watcher'd mastina and saw me visit and that's why mastina tried to claim on me first

but for that to work there would need to be someone else carrying out the kill besides mastina, so they would probably both be goons

and mastina no acting both nights means that someone else was doing the kill both nights anyway

[fireisredsir]

unless mastina is the cars 2 role from invictus

that was a really cool role actually its too bad we got nothing out of it

[fireisredsir]

now i know how roden felt lol

you are using so many words and yet very few of them are actually meaningful

lemme try to summarize your points

1. you assume that scum does not have roleblocking power due to balance, and if they did, they would not have used it on you
2. you think that i would not have investigated you n2 after seeing you not act n1

as for 1, idk, im bad at setup spec stuff. but it does feel like you're making a lot of assumptions here, and you also made a lot yesterday about why roden was mechanically scum, and your assumptions must have been wrong somewhere. im not gonna argue about your balance points bc that seems v useless and tbh you do know balance better than i do! but there are lots of ways in which you can be correct about balance and your conclusion about my alignment still be wrong

for 2, i already explained my thought process. i wanted to check you both nights bc i wanted to see if what you eventually would claim lined up with my info. it's true that i didn't think about the "no multitasking so therefore scum would need probably multiple goons for someone on the scum team to take no action multiple times" but thats just bc im stupid. i thought that it was most likely that if you were telling the truth you would no-act n1 and then act either n2 or n3 or both, but there were also other possibilities i considered. the way you described yourself turning into a scumhunting god or whatever made me expect you were probably like a joat or could make yourself bulletproof or something

idk maybe im dumb but if i had gotten a "this person took no action" result i would never just automatically think "ok this person is significantly more likely to be town". my approach to the role was instead thinking "ok this is info that i can save for later to check if people are fakeclaiming". like i assume based on the fact that my role exists and it is low cost, every scum is not expected balance-wise to take action every night, otherwise my role would be a lot more powerful than i thought

[fireisredsir]

Fire might have suspected me, but I didn't act N1, and fire had 100% proof I didn't. Meaning that as scum, I wouldn't have suddenly acted N2. There was no scum elimination D2, so whoever performed the N1 kills could and WOULD perform them again.

like this is just literally never something i would assume???

is that what happens? does the same scum always carry out the nightkill?

like i accept that im probably dumb and don't know how people tend to act mechanically but this is just not an assumption i would ever even consider making

[fireisredsir]

The only way that I can see them prioritizing a block on me N1 is if they knew I hadn't acted N1--sayyyyyy, by fireisredsir having legitimately targeted me N1 and reporting that I didn't visit to his scumbuddies?


Basically, no matter how you slice it, Fire is implicated as scum.

If scum blocked Vivax, then my failure is not explained. Thus, Fire scum.
If scum used a rolestopper to defend against Vivax, then fire is scum.

this is also just kinda failing basic logic and starting at the assumption that im scum and then creating narratives to fit that

nothing about this actually makes me more likely to be scum. if you're town and telling the truth and you got roleblocked, all that tells you is that scum roleblocked you. there's a lot of possible reasons they might do that and a lot of possible scenarios where that could happen

just bc you can think of one scenario where a scumteam with me on it would result in this situation doesn't mean it's the only or even the most likely possibility

[fireisredsir]

This requires that she both knew fairly confidently that you were firing last night (not night 3), and that your role would tell you that you were roleblocked in someway.

So scum rolecop -> scum roleblock fits with what I felt like Titus was doing here

i think this makes a lot of sense actually

[fireisredsir]

i did think originally that titus claiming mastina as her mason buddy was bc they were scum together but the way things played out makes it seem like mastina and titus were not at all on the same page, otherwise they prooobably would have been more coordinated about it

[fireisredsir]

I would imagine Ausuka is a vig shot
I think she was viably in the miselimination pool and unless scum saw something they thought was a crumb or something I doubt they take that shot

i mean i thought she was scum for what i thought was heavily softing a PR and then later walking it back so it's def possible scum saw the same thing i did
i did figure out eventually that i was misinterpreting but it did really look that way at first to me

Nevermind, I gotta ask:

Why did fire not use his role on Ausuka to verify this?

Maybe because the scum used a second kill as an investigative tool???

Also,

WHY DOES FIRE THINK THE AUSUKA KILL IS A SCUM KILL HERE?

Most of the town it seems at that point was like "Vivax vigged there" from what I saw.

i didn't check ausuka bc as i said in that quote, i figured out in the course of conversation with ausuka that i was misinterpreting and that she never intended to pr soft. so my initial instinct was irrelevant

i was responding directly to dann who mentioned the possibility of scum seeing a crumb. i was saying that if they had seen what i saw, maybe they thought she was a PR

[fireisredsir]

What were the hinted-at reasons here? Those hint at a result on Roden, not a result on me.
How would a result on me having visited nobody indicated that Roden's claim was weird but coming from town?
There's no correlation here at all.
This doesn't read like someone with a result on me; this reads as someone with a result on Roden.

the reasons i was hinting at were not role related. i don't remember the exact context but i think it was that i didn't really have the energy to argue with you about why it seemed like you were making wrong assumptions about what roles made sense, and that it didn't seem worth it when roden might just be scum on play anyway

i didn't have any intent or interest in crumbing and im not sure why you would expect me to. crumbing results seemed to me like it would be more likely to hurt than help, esp if i die and then results become obvious

[fireisredsir]

I need to heavily reconsider fireisredsir as potential scum, I think.

I think I can see how he developed into a townread for me naturally in a way that made me not want to reconsider. But I've started on his ISO and not only does it not read as towny in the way I originally hard townread him early, but he explicitly says in 391 that he thinks the same way I do in terms of what is AI/what he'd normally do as scum. My most used sorting tool is 'what does this person want to achieve with their posts, is their primary goal getting townread or some other goal more closely aligning with a town win condition'. And fire reveals there that he plays at a level where he'd be aware and able to mask his intentions adequately enough to produce a natural townread from me as scum.

I'll keep reading when I get a moment tomorrow (need to sleep now), but that's where I'm expecting to vote. Dannflor doesn't feel like a correct scumread. Ydrasse has S_S in the correct category. I think jjh actually has a pretty decent chance of being scum, but not with like actual confidence, and I'd like to hear more details about mastina's townread there and see if it's translatable at all to reasoning I'd agree with.

But so far with a game's worth of context on fire's play, I'm not seeing town at all on an altogether read-through of the slot like I did when just reading the game as it happened.

i don't really get this, it seems like... super shallow reasoning? what about my play this game looks like it was meant to generate townreads?

like, your core point here is that me suspecting someone for looking like they're playing to get townread (and comparing it to how i play scum) made you think i was capable of doing that

do you... just have a baseline assumption that people in general aren't?

idk it just seems like a kinda opportunistic reassessment and i don't really believe that this only occurred to you now

[fireisredsir]

ig you did say you reread and weren't feeling the same vibe as you did originally so maybe thats fair

tbh if you had just said that i probably wouldn't take issue with it, so maybe im getting too caught up on that one bit

but it just feels overjustified in a way that doesn't actually really justify anything, which feels kinda off to me

[fireisredsir]

anyway maybe complacency is bad and all but i feel like with 2 scum dead already and most likely 2 remaining, this is probably just a win? i don't really mind being in the poe, i think its reasonable enough

mastina is probably just town

i think rn i mostly want to look at some people that ive just kinda taken for granted as town and make sure i still feel okay about that, will tackle that later today

[fireisredsir]

not really, my understanding of the narrative is that if i were scum then i knew (due to being ascetic or rolestopped or whatever) that mastina had no result on me and thats why i claimed what i did

the flaw in that is that if i was actually scum i think i would like almost always just claim vt or something and play dumb and avoid having to deal with any mechanical mess

but most people left in this game wouldn't necessarily know that about me, and looking at it objectively i can understand why it might look convenient or whatever

i also haven't exactly been super engaged with this game so far so on play i don't think i should necessarily be townread. i was kinda back and forth on titus iirc which probably doesn't look great in hindsight

i don't think my repeated check on mastina is sus at all tho bc i think that was literally the best play i had available. idk if that was a major point of suspicion for anyone anymore but ig if it is for people then id like to hear why

[fireisredsir]

wait, what was fire's claim again?

i check if they successfully carried out a night action

[fireisredsir]

idk take it up with datisi

[fireisredsir]

im sure if nero had claimed doctor at 30% people would have thought that seemed off. seems way low to me

[fireisredsir]

when i drew the role my thought was that the power was mostly useful for checking if claims are true, thats why i was trying to use it that way

but it also can get p powerful later bc with 1 scum left a non-action result when there's a scum kill is a clear. luke also brought up that even with 2 or 3 left a non-action result can be v meaningful due to the no multitasking

if anything id think it should scale up faster than it does

[fireisredsir]

Fire I guess? They had many ways to make their claim believable and took none of them.

this is very weirdly phrased

wdym

i don't see how i could have done anything different than what i did

[fireisredsir]

ok uh, i feel like ive covered all of these things and idk what the issue is

why would i soft? i feel like softing with this role is literally just bad play? the only benefit is making the claim more believable which would only really be something i would be thinking about as scum

what did i say that was inconsistent with my result? i think my thought process has been p clear

why is it not believable that i would target the same player twice in a row?

[fireisredsir]

i don't believe that you genuinely think every investigative role should be softing their results, is that really a view you hold? like if you're getting clears or guilties then yes sure, but i thought it was just as likely to be harmful for my role to do it, and also i didn't think my result was very significant

and no i did not say that i assumed she would no-act as town, i said my GUESS was that she MOST LIKELY wouldn't act as town, but i had no way of knowing what to expect or if my guess was reasonable. like i said, it also seemed possible that she was like a joat or something if town. and i didn't realize until luke's explanation that it might be unlikely for her to no-act as scum

i was more suspicious of her play on d2, and the result didn't seem meaningful enough to factor in. like, you know there's other parts of the game besides role results right

[fireisredsir]

??????

is that a serious question

[fireisredsir]

whats the issue penguin

[fireisredsir]

i don't believe that you genuinely think every investigative role should be softing their results, is that really a view you hold?

I mean no, only if they think the results matter. I was just assuming that you would only use your role on someone who'd semi-claimed if you thought the result would matter.

it doesn't matter much d2 but it does matter if it doesn't match up with what she claims later

like if i die before she claims and have softed strongly enough for people to find them, then if she's scum she will just adjust her claim based on the softs. and if she's town then ive probably done nothing useful except give scum info about her role. there's no situation where it's a good idea

[fireisredsir]

??????

is that a serious question

yes it's a serious question. if you don't care about the result, why target someone who'd already partially claimed? surely you're more likely to catch someone in a lie if you target someone who'd claimed nothing

i did care about the result??? it just didn't mean much on d2. the usefulness of it comes later

and yea i could have tried to random guess some checks but there's no guarantee that those people are going to claim anytime soon and so it's more likely to not result in anything useful

with mastina i knew she was claiming some time soon and it literally did result in something useful so idk what the issue is here

[fireisredsir]

with mastina i knew she was claiming some time soon

ok see, this is what I was looking for. This makes sense why you'd want to catch her in a lie, knowing that you'd be able to do so within a few days.

Why didn't you say *this* back when you initially claimed? You said something about "wanting to see if she was legit" which apparently was inaccurate (or at least misleading, because to me it implies that your result was actually going to tell you whether she was legit).

And, why didn't you actually wait for her to claim? Your whole plan was ruined because you claimed before she did.

im like 90% sure i did already say that originally but i can go look for it

she demanded that i claim so uh i don't think i can just say "nah you go first" lol

[fireisredsir]

so the n1 result checked out, but i still didn't really trust you on play, and so i decided it was worth checking again n2 due to the possibility that you would reveal d3

you made an elaborate claim that seemed to indicate you had significant power. you made it very clear that you would be revealing your role by d4. that seemed like easily the most useful place to use my role, bc then once you do reveal your role i can see if my info matches what you claimed

for 2, i already explained my thought process. i wanted to check you both nights bc i wanted to see if what you eventually would claim lined up with my info. it's true that i didn't think about the "no multitasking so therefore scum would need probably multiple goons for someone on the scum team to take no action multiple times" but thats just bc im stupid. i thought that it was most likely that if you were telling the truth you would no-act n1 and then act either n2 or n3 or both, but there were also other possibilities i considered. the way you described yourself turning into a scumhunting god or whatever made me expect you were probably like a joat or could make yourself bulletproof or something

idk maybe im dumb but if i had gotten a "this person took no action" result i would never just automatically think "ok this person is significantly more likely to be town". my approach to the role was instead thinking "ok this is info that i can save for later to check if people are fakeclaiming". like i assume based on the fact that my role exists and it is low cost, every scum is not expected balance-wise to take action every night, otherwise my role would be a lot more powerful than i thought

idk ive been saying this the whole time

[fireisredsir]

Would have been worth a try.

ok but think about it from my perspective

i see her say she has an investigative result on me. i know that's a lie. so fmpov she has already claimed and i have already caught her in a lie and so that's why i was happy to fullclaim immediately

so in that moment i thought my plan had 100% worked

then she walked it back and changed her claim and i thought that was definitely scum

but eventually other factors led me to think she probably was town, mostly the idea that she would likely not have no-acted as scum both nights, which i didn't fully understand the logic behind until i had it explained to me

[fireisredsir]

I mean, that's true, but you were also saying the wrong thing-- e.g. "i thought that it was most likely that if you were telling the truth you would no-act n1 and then act either n2 or n3 or both", "the n1 result checked out". Those made it sound like you had some expectation for when she would/wouldn't act, and that her probably claiming was just an added bonus, rather than you actually not caring about the results at all until she claimed. And if you actually didn't care at all about the results until she claimed, I would have expected you to say something to the effect of "I was hoping mastina would claim before I did" when you claimed, or something to that effect.

i was only saying that bc people kept specifically asking about it, it wasn't ever a major factor for me personally and i didn't mean to imply that it was

[fireisredsir]

i see her say she has an investigative result on me. i know that's a lie. so fmpov she has already claimed and i have already caught her in a lie and so that's why i was happy to fullclaim immediately

I mean, if she's saying she has a result that you're scum, doesn't that already make her lying fypov regardless of her role?

she said "heavily implies" or something

which to me looked like leaving herself room to walk it back. that part could be massaged into the truth depending on what she says she has

but she said with no hedging that she had an investigative result and that part i knew for sure was a lie

[fireisredsir]

she hadn't claimed the 150% requirement when i chose to check

this discussion was about n1 and n2 actions, to be clear i did not check mastina a 3rd time lol

[fireisredsir]

ok dumping some reread notes, first up, looking over klick im not really sure why i had been townreading there

maybe i got pocketed by the early townread on me idk

started out a bit awk with 114, not really sure why that's something they care about

in general i think the progression of the readlists looked towny to me but is p easy to fake especially when they aren't giving a lot of reasons for their reads. makes it look like they're sitting back and quietly solving the game but there isn't really much evidence of that actually happening

oh ok i remember more of why i was townreading now, i liked 694 as a response at the time. i still kinda do but i also still don't really love the original post that i was questioning anyway. idk

reading their more recent posts i think they just come across as exceptionally reasonable to me, and it tends to be very hard for me to find those types of players as scum. the seeming lack of re-evaluation after roden and titus flip through 2079 to 2764 is actually kinda really concerning. those lists are very similar despite the strongest scumread and one of the townreads in the first one being revealed as wrong. and especially the lack of re-eval on SS feels like they are trying to maintain a poe while not thinking that critically about the game

[fireisredsir]

furtive i also had as town early and... i kinda still feel that? he just has like a tone to him that's like... excited to be solving things. i don't think he pulls the "guess my reads" game in 143 as scum

i guess he knows that i read him as town off a similar energy in turing test and maybe he'd make efforts to replicate that, but idk. it doesn't feel performative at all (in the more traditional way -- it feels more likely to annoy people than anything and that just doesn't seem like his style as scum)

through the rest of d1 he just feels consistently present and like his reads are naturally evolving in response to the thread. i don't really feel any sense of him trying to manipulate things or force reads to happen

that mostly holds through the rest of the game so far, it seems like he has more priority on just being there and less on control or projecting towniness.

also maybe dumb but i feel like i can really relate to the just... being annoyed by mastina using questionable logic to write massive posts with extreme levels of confidence on something that you know is wrong. and now especially, thinking that she's town anyway. i feel some of those vibes in his posts and they're the same ones that ive felt. idk, i think he's probably just town

[fireisredsir]

andres im conflicted on. early posts felt scummy to me, had a low key thought that peta was killed bc when i expressed that, peta said not to rush into that read bc andres is easy to read given time. so that + me not feeling like andres is at all clearly town has me worried a bit. ig actually peta was probably killed for suspecting titus but anyway

and looking through... there's a lot of places that i think really kinda look like pushing scum agenda? like his first post after disappearing for 700 posts is 772 (the "too" in this is very weird) is attacking probably one of the easiest ircher voters to push in vivax

diminishing the importance of the slip in 828 is the same line titus used

1040 shading mastina for not dying, while pushing for vivax. 1050 hmmm

i thought 1123 was weird at the time, felt like he was overemphasizing how much his view of the gamestate was shaken up for the sake of trying to appear town, when i don't think that much really changed?

1169 also randomly throws titus in a solve despite having no expressed suspicion there since he last said he wouldn't vote for her

BUT i feel like there's kind of a lot of town energy in his argument with vivax starting around 1602. it's also a pretty nuanced mechanical point that im not sure if scum really would be thinking about

aaand then 2256 is a super weak reason to not vote titus while still expressing suspicion. almost so weak that i would kinda expect scum to be too self-conscious to post it

idk reading his iso i feel like he's almost constantly blatantly pushing scum agenda but at the same time it's hard for me to get past that one section that feels really towny. im curious to hear from the people who have him as town and if they have past experience that's informing that/if they agree with peta that he's easy to read

[fireisredsir]

ok i thought 384 from rce was p bad and then uncrowned shows up in 384 and calls it goated posting hmmmm

469 felt like such a weird line to go down at the time, and looking back now it easily could have been an attempt to pivot things away from ircher, right when ircher first returned to the thread which is when scum might have thought they had a chance to go somewhere else

574 also kinda a weird blanket discredit of the ircher wagon

since d1 he had the slightly overaggressive push on roden and then has mostly disappeared

i don't feel very strongly about this tbh, i think maybe part of me wants to believe that my early vibe read was correct and he's scum, but i only see a couple things that feel like they could have scum motivation (the push away from ircher as soon as he returns to thread, and hard pushing the roden wagon d2). his lack of feeling a need to influence gamestate lately could just be town ig, dunno

[fireisredsir]

im not sure why people are townreading mala since there's so little substance there, i think on reread her early interactions with titus could be a little awkward (377 is just kind of a weird perspective to have when voting that player) and she's not really done much. that said 423 does remind me of frenemies where she made a similar post and then we limmed her bc it seemed like a mason fakesoft and she was VT lol. still tho should probably always be in the poe

jjh ive sort of been assuming they're town and i don't really remember where that started. nothing in my reread stood out to me besides what kinda looks like pocketing mastina, now that i think mastina is town. feels like he's playing a kinda positional game and that has me on edge a bit, want to look closer when im less sleepy

also want to look at dann more tomorrow. still don't like rce but dann has felt better to me, and on a surface level at least his push on titus looks good, so ig i feel a little better there

[fireisredsir]

s_s i didn't really like the start of our interaction earlier today but he got more reasonable and like dann said, i kinda doubt titus tries to tie him and ircher together like that if they're both actually scum. probably is just town

ydra town bc duh

mastina ive talked about enough already

penguin idk, ive just been trusting that peta's early "bet the game on it" read is correct. it feels a lot more like he has real thoughts than the one scumgame I've seen from him, but i assume he is generally more capable than that, should probably read more games later to see if that feeling holds

i think thats everyone

[fireisredsir]

i thought about voting klick but the more i think about it the more i think i want to go here for now

VOTE: andres

gn

[fireisredsir]

@fire I’m not really going to defend not voting for Ircher. But I’m not sure I get what Scum agenda I’m supposedly pushing. In any case, being wrong doesn’t mean anything, but I can’t fault you for being suspicious I guess. You are, however, way off, and I really wouldn’t play like this as Scum.

its not really just about not voting for ircher. there's a lot of places where it just feels like you're positioned right where, looking back, it seems useful for scum to be. i can go into more detail later if you want

and there's not a lot that really feels like it makes more sense coming from town that i see

what do you mean by you wouldn't play like this as scum? what do you think you've done this game thats different from your scum game?

[fireisredsir]

klick

Hi
Ngl I've really not got the energy at the moment, I'm off work sick for the last couple of days
I'm not going to force myself to engage heavily when I'm not in a place to enjoy it at least a little bit
I'm aware there's other outstanding stuff for me from earlier and I'll try to get to everything

You made a point in this post about it not seeming like my reads have developed much lately. The current problem is that I feel fairly confident in the reasons I've got the players as town that I do, BUT my list of remaining available scum doesn't... feel right. I don't have a concrete reason for it in my head but Dannflor doesn't feel like scum to me. Exactly jjh/S_S doesn't seem right, they're also two players that I don't think I'd get a solid townread on easily if they were town (I do think one scum there is probably a good shout though?). So I'm in a place where one of my townreads is probably wrong and I need to identify which, but I don't like any of the choices because they all feel town to me. So it needs to be someone who is rather committed to playing in a way that reads as genuine to me, OR one of the reads themselves is a poor read.

I'll give the furtive deepwolf theory some consideration but it doesn't feel realistic on first impression

hi

thats ok i understand that feeling

but on your reads, thats kinda what's weird to me tho, like you had me as a townread and then dropped it bc once you saw me say that i liked to gain townreads as scum, you thought that i could have easily gotten you to townread me. and like... okay, sure, but that's like a basic thing that most people can do as scum? so im not sure why that would change anything for you. it feels like your original townread couldn't have actually been very strong if that was enough to shake it

so like if thats the level of confidence your townreads have then im not really sure why you feel fairly confident in them?

and i would kinda expect you to be assessing if you should have reasons to adjust your scumreads (or if they're not scumreads, at least not-townreads) based on the flips. and it doesn't really feel like you have. if you still scumread dann and SS you should like at least be engaging with the reasons people have for finding them to be likely town

i just don't see any sign that you've actually considered whether those reasons are valid or not, and that's something i would expect you to do if you are in this place where you aren't sure if your scumreads are right or not

[fireisredsir]

hmm ok ig i tend to assume that most people as scum try to look town but i kinda see what you're saying

i do usually play like that as scum so fair enough (i don't think i generally do the same things that i do as town, but i do try to do things that certain other people would expect me to do as town, especially early on)

but i don't really think my play in this game matches up with that so idk what is making you think it does, you still haven't really talked about specifics here

[fireisredsir]

@fire I’m not really going to defend not voting for Ircher. But I’m not sure I get what Scum agenda I’m supposedly pushing. In any case, being wrong doesn’t mean anything, but I can’t fault you for being suspicious I guess. You are, however, way off, and I really wouldn’t play like this as Scum.

its not really just about not voting for ircher. there's a lot of places where it just feels like you're positioned right where, looking back, it seems useful for scum to be. i can go into more detail later if you want

and there's not a lot that really feels like it makes more sense coming from town that i see

what do you mean by you wouldn't play like this as scum? what do you think you've done this game thats different from your scum game?

I don’t agree. As you can clearly see with the Titus push for Ircher / subsequent flip, the Scum came to the quick conclusion that being

on

Ircher was the better place to be than off. I’m not suggesting all of the Scum bussed Ircher (though it’s certainly possible), but I do feel like voting there was the right strategic push. I might have thrown some passing shade at Ircher, but I never voted there, and I questioned the slip. How does that set me up for success exactly, as Scum? Like I said, I don’t know if all the Scum ended up doing this, but to some extent, it wouldn’t surprise me. Ircher was under tremendous pressure from the slip and for the entire period of time they were away from the thread, so that was the right time to create distance from them not to be easily associated with them. I certainly don’t expect any of the Scum to have defended Ircher all that strongly.

Regarding Titus, I was clear from the start that I struggle reading the slot, and it’s also hard to argue a player is Scum when they voted and pushed for Scum to die. I expressed that they had had takes that didn’t seem like they would originally come from Town, but it is difficult I feel to argue with the ultimate result sometimes. But how have I positioned myself right? Most of the players I would typically work with to get a result (and I’ve played with Nero Cain, petapan, Lukewarm, Ausuka in the past, as well as Malakittens, Ydrasse, Something_Smart and maybe fire?) are mostly dead, and obviously mastina and Malakittens are defending me most loudly, and I’m openly disagreeing with mastina’s push, and I haven’t made any approach to work directly with Malakittens. How am I strengthening my position over time? The one player that is trusting me and I’m trusting them back a little bit is Ydrasse who I’m almost certain is Town, and for ~reasons~, I really doubt that perspective helps me long-term. So no, I don’t agree at all with that feeling you have. You’re not giving me any credit for my Nero or Lukewarm reads either but yeah whatever any decent Scum can put out some reads that make sense.

And I mean I don’t really feel like you’re reading me all that closely if you don’t think most of what I’m posting comes from Town. I’m not going to sit here and explain why my perspective is Town. It just is, and if you can’t see it, then that’s on you really. If you want to ask specific questions as to why I came to a particular conclusion, then I can expand upon specific questions but I’m not just going to defend my play against generalities because that’s impossible to do.

Why don’t I think I’ve played like Scum? Because I’ve kept up, read through the game a few times, tried making sense of what’s been going on, and I certainly was focused on getting Titus right yesterday for example which I really don’t have any incentive to do as Scum. I think the biggest differentiator between my Scum and Town game is that you can tell when I care and when I don’t as I make an argument or express a point of view, and I think that piece of my game is really difficult for me to fake. But that’s my take on my own game so take that as you will.

for your first point, yes i absolutely expect that scum took different strategies in how they approached ircher. with titus pushing him pretty hard, id imagine at least one would try to be on the opposite side of things. that seems pretty standard play

as for your play, it's true that you're not like making a whole lot of alliances here which is a decent point tbh. ig it's true that you might be more likely to try to keep people alive that you can play around as scum. i def do the same thing so i understand. but like, peta said you were an easy read later in the game to people who know you, and so i feel like it actually in that case makes a lot of sense to kill the people you've played with before rather than keep them alive to try to get them on your side?

the things that im talking about are like:

- your re-entrance to the thread in 772, not having posted since 77, where you right away push on vivax and say that he's scum "too", even though your ydrasse vote was after only 2 posts from her and seemed p clearly rvs. you then call out a few ydrasse posts, but those are later in your catchup, so there doesn't seem to be any justification for why you think she's scum at this point. and at this point ydrasse is still the second leading wagon behind ircher. seems like you would have a lot of motivation as scum there to stretch an rvs vote into a real one

- your 1049 is throwing shade on people for vote movement within the first 5 pages which seems kind of... a stretch, but more importantly, it seems inconsistent with your earlier reasons for suspecting vivax. before you said he was suspicious if ircher flipped town due the post where he put ircher at e-1 early, but here he's suspicious because he was trying to create a counterpush for ircher, and you ignore the part where he put ircher on e-1, only later talking about his switch to ircher once roden brings it up. it feels cherrypicked and doesn't read as a real town progression

- 1052 is you pushing back against titus scumreads by saying that it's unlikely scum bussed as hard as she did. yet here your position on what the scum were likely doing seems like it's coming from a completely different angle. like yea titus has flipped now and given some info, but based on that post it seems like you would think she was the exception, not an example of how all the scum acted. it's possible for opinions to evolve but this doesn't really feel like a natural evolution, it feels like you coming up with a reason to back up whatever point is convenient to you at the time

- in 1123 and 1190 you overemphasize how lost in the gamestate you are right now (again -- the justification for this makes no sense. one person that you suspected claimed vig, and now your whole gamestate view has been shaken up? it just feels super performative) and use it to hide behind mastina, voting roden, while also absolving yourself of any real guilt or needing to take strong stances by telling roden that "oh actually im not sure who scum is, i just think mastina knows what's going on"

- you return to the thread when roden is at e-1 and say basically that you're still deciding and unsure (but also don't feel any need to move your vote off him while you're deciding) in 2052 (which luke calls you out for). eventually you commit to a stronger read on roden and not wanting to move off him, while also making sure to have a bit of progression on titus in 2256 while still providing a weak reason not to vote there. its really kinda hard for me to view this section of posts as uninformed, the progression on titus and approach to the day just feels incredibly unnatural to come from town

- your approach to the titus/ydra claim situation also felt kinda perfomative, especially 2306, 2317, and 2489, but i don't think there's anything that's not believable coming from town in them. they're just kinda exactly how i would expect scum to respond to their partner getting caught in a lie, and knowing they're inevitably going down




i think you're pretty good at scum from what ive read of bunnies, i don't really feel like anything you've done here is out of the range that i saw from that. the closest thing ive felt to you caring about an argument that you're making and feeling like that passion behind your posts that i felt in ktane was again that argument you had with vivax around page 65 and 66. that's the towniest thing ive seen from you, but i don't think it's at all impossible to fake. in fact you seemed to kinda be going out of your way to stall on having to care about any reads on d2, which would make sense coming from scum who is aware of that being a weakness

[fireisredsir]

anyway i would still like to hear from the people who are strongly townreading andres about reasons for why they are doing that bc maybe im missing something but i really don't see much towny about his play here

on furtive, reading between the lines a bit i think i finally get what mastina is saying better than i did previously, and i think that makes the push there a bit more understandable. i don't really feel it though, i think it's possible for furtive to have the opinions he has as town, and i think he's less likely to express them in the way that he has if he's scum

like the post that jjh called out as not coming from town, it seems like that's a post that isn't going to accomplish anything as scum besides annoy the people that he's talking about?? furtive scum felt p meek and conciliatory when i played against him, i still don't really feel like the attitude matches here

that was one of his first games onsite i believe so it is possible his play has evolved ig, i don't see any recent scumgames so it's hard to know. i still just find the arguments kinda unconvincing tho

[fireisredsir]

Just to get it on the record - I suspect Scum wanted to be on Ircher early so not to get suspected given the slip. My thought was that Uncrowned moved away because they (i) chickened out and (ii) could maybe get some momentum going against Roden and divert the wagon away from Ircher. You see, both things can be true: it was advisable to push Ircher given the slip, but perhaps you get cold feet about murdering your Partner so early and look for a way to jump off.

how does this square with the perspective you stated here, which you used to push back on people suspecting titus?

Titus could have been bussing but you would have to think they were on top of Ircher’s case very aggressively and maybe? It’s possible the Scum decided to take alternative tracks in order to not all get lumped together, but I seriously doubt all of the Scum bailed on Ircher immediately.

in the first quote you say that you think scum wanted to be on ircher early, and in the second you say that it would surprise you for most of the scum team to be on ircher early

like if this was real, i would expect that you would see that titus had pushed ircher aggressively early, and decide that she was the exception to your idea that most scum probably didn't do that. i would think it would make you think it's LESS likely for the rest of scum to also be on ircher early, since titus already was. instead it seems like it made you think it's MORE likely

or at least i would expect some acknowledgement that you changed your mind. town change their mind all the time and that's fine. but it doesn't feel like you even noticed the inconsistency in your thought process until i pointed it out which makes me feel like it wasn't a real thought process

[fireisredsir]

When your biggest SR claims Vig with a shot that makes sense and they’re not counterclaimed, you assuming that it shouldn’t shake my confidence or my view of the game fire is nonsensical to me.

i think it makes sense for you to believe that this would happen. like, clearly you do think that's the town reaction. that's my point

but i don't think it makes sense to the extent that you were expressing it, and that's what makes it feel performative

like viva was a lot of people's top suspicion. ik roden, luke, ydra all voted there, and at least a few more were suspicious. luke had way more of a case and way more of a reason to be suspicious of vivax than you did. but after the claim his reaction looks way more natural, evolving thought, and relatively smoothly taking that new info into account and adjusting his worldview based on it and starting a new push

but it's a lot harder for scum to come up with a new genuine-sounding direction and suspicion after the person that they hoped would be a miselim suddenly claims. i think scum is way more likely to get stuck in that position and not feel like they have anywhere else to go, because they aren't genuinely reacting and evolving their worldview

especially like, this is early d2. if it was d5 and you had been pushing vivax as your sole scumread all game, then sure okay, i would expect you to be shaken up a bit. but i don't think the reaction you had makes sense from town, and i think that's evidenced by the fact that none of the other town who were in the same position as you had remotely the same reaction

[fireisredsir]

And sure you may expect my reactions to Titus being “Scum who knows their Partner is going down”. You know what they actually are though? Town who finally sees bullshit and isn’t letting them get away with it. But you seem to be interpreting everything I do in the worst possible way so you do you. You’re wrong and the game will prove itself out but I don’t think I need to spend a tremendous amount of time proving that yet.

and again i just don't really think this is how town responded? like you stick out pretty strongly reading back as someone who really wanted to make sure everyone was aware of how much we needed to eliminate titus, i don't think anyone was performative to that same extent. so saying "well of course town would have this reaction" just doesn't really do much for me bc most of town didn't

like at the time you said that obviously we were eliminating titus. the "im not letting you get away with this!!" just screams performance to me

[fireisredsir]

@Klick can you give me a summary of your reads at the moment? I read through your ISO and what I noticed is that your reads are jumping quite a bit. Not in like a bad way or anything, I’m just not currently sure what you’re seeing. Because obviously you are fluctuating wildly on fire and RCE/Dannflor, and I want to get a better feel for those players.

where do you see their reads jumping around? i kinda thought the opposite, it felt weird how static their reads were given the flips

doesn't really feel like they've been fluctuating wildly on me or dann, just that they started to be less sure on both of the reads

[fireisredsir]

sure ok

VOTE: mala

i kinda liked andres on this page a little better

[fireisredsir]

sure ok

VOTE: mala

i kinda liked andres on this page a little better

Flail harder bro

do you actually think im scum

all you said when you voted me was "what are we doing? voting fire?"

that doesn't really make it sound like this is a real opinion you hold

[fireisredsir]

So what exactly is Mala!scum *doing* if anyone could explain that that'd be great

hoping people buy into this, probably

i mean i don't really see any evidence of her solving that you mentioned earlier so idk what makes her town. it doesn't feel like her posts have any real town thought behind them

[fireisredsir]

because I don't think they are both scum

do you have a specific reason for thinking this

earlier today i was kinda thinking that could be exactly the solve

im less sure on it now but still

the way andres pushed on you for your push on klick but then had kind of an awkward recovery from it felt to me like that could have been motivated

klick has never really given any reason to townread andres or engaged with him at all despite having him as town from their very first post

[fireisredsir]

ig there's 1050 from andres but eh

[fireisredsir]

2306 is just so bizarre tho i have such a hard time believing town really thinks that way

[fireisredsir]

VOTE: andres

[fireisredsir]

lowkey think that might just be the team

uh wait what lol

nobody was even really looking at andres until i started calling him out for stuff

that seems like an exceptionally bad plan if we're scum partners

[fireisredsir]

hm

VOTE: klick

[fireisredsir]

Okay but your ranking has no outright scum reads, me at neutral, and jjh at uncertain

Like, there’s no urgency behind fixing that

I feel like as town your top priority would be sorting me and jjh but I don’t really see that?

Like mechanically you are doing the work of ISOing and sorting but I feel like your heart isn’t in it exactly? Like you are sorting but not reaching any solid conclusions. Which is fine… I’m often uncertain too, but I don’t really get the sense you feel like you need or even particularly want to fix that

not really game related but reading this was wild bc i feel like ive written this post word for word before in other contexts

am i dannflor

i never knew

[fireisredsir]

looking back at klick's progression onto andres its pretty bad imo

like again he has a strong townread all game with very little justification presented and is willing to drop it like immediately after the barest of reasons

and that on its own is ok whatever, but in combination with his statement earlier about how he felt confident in all of his townreads? it doesn't really match up

[fireisredsir]

fire why'd you switch

andres felt towny here and with that in mind i was looking back and klick's progression stood out as not super believable

[fireisredsir]

You made a point in this post about it not seeming like my reads have developed much lately. The current problem is that I feel fairly confident in the reasons I've got the players as town that I do, BUT my list of remaining available scum doesn't... feel right.

like this was the reason he gave for not having really developed his reads at all in a while

and idk i just don't really believe that given he has presented very little to justify those townreads (and he doesn't just say that he's confident in the reads, he's confident in the REASONS), and that a couple times now when it's convenient to do so he drops those reads really easily

[fireisredsir]

here's the thing

if mastina is wrong on furtive

I think scum are very likely to make up a reason to town read furtive and vote elsewhere

because generally mastina gets what she wants. it's just a matter of sussing out who genuinely town reads furtive and who just wants the cred

also assuming furtive is town which maybe I should reevaluate that again

i think this is especially true bc she wants one of me/furtive

like scum probably doesn't have to do a whole lot here, which is part of why im trying to look at people who are not trying to disrupt things too much

[fireisredsir]

there is one thing i think you're missing jjh actually that might make your logic fall apart a bit (or maybe might not make a difference?), but i think it probably makes you town anyway

im not exactly convinced we should leave klick alone but agreed on mala

VOTE: mala

[fireisredsir]

hi

am i claiming results prior to massclaim? fine with whatever people want to do ig