Large Normal 241: Random Pictures and Other Stuff | Endgame

[Dannflor]

basically fire I'm leaning back towards you because I feel like you're the only one really playing to endgame here, idk that might sound counterintuitive to people but I feel like fire's reactions to everything today have been just... a little too cool.

Now, I figure you're generally a calm person and not someone to really get big mad and you want people to like you. I understand that because I'm exactly the same way, but I feel like there is something missing in how you're playing today.

You keep saying over and over again that you understand why people want to eliminate you and that you're just fine with that as long as Frogster goes and generally just being very accepting of the fact that you might die here. But... and I can't believe I'm about to agree with Frogster here, it does read like you're trying to pocket people and survive more than actually solve the game. I don't think Frogster believes that blowing up at everyone and calling their cases trash with no reasoning is really going to help him get to endgame. That's how you make enemies and get people to yeet you because you're annoying. That reads like genuine town frustration. Ausuka, even if she does tend towards coming off as overly defensive, I think knows to reel that in instead of lashing out when a modicum of suspicion lands on her. Ausuka is very well setup to go to end game and I'm sure scum!Ausuka would know that. I don't think she'd jeopardize that when she can so easily just let suspicion pass over her. Shea gets pissed off about the reasons people suspect him every single time and I really don't think Shea thinks that reiterating how much he bussed his partners is how scum!Shea thinks he's going to make end game. He is also consistently revaluating everyone left in the suspect pool and trying to sort them. Yes, you might look at that as "keeping your options open," but I think more important than that for scum right now is to make friends. The tides can easily turn against whoever is scum right now and putting suspicion on quite literally everyone is counterintuitive to surviving this round, especially when the easiest thing is to just go with Frogster or Fire as miselim candidates.

I think it is instinctual as town to suspect people who are pushing you. I don't see that with you Fire. I don't really care how good your reasons are for scum reading Frogster or town reading me or the rest of us, I feel like just once this day phase you'd let paranoia creep in about the people pushing you and you'd try to reevaluate me or someone else.

I don't see that happening and it makes it seem you are more focused on getting through this phase than actually solving the game.

I don't think Guilty Lion's reasons to town read Fire are very good because I don't understand what GL actually expects scum!fire to do differently in this situation. Hard push both Frogster and GL as scum after CSF flips scum? That doesn't really make sense. Fire just needs to leave the door open to go back to suspecting GL later and all he has to do is town flip Frogster to do that. There's only one scum left (or at least there better be), so pushing two people when you want one person to help you this phase seems counterintuitive for scum.

I don't know. There's just not enough paranoia or WIM to try to solve the game from you Fire. Like, what if you are wrong on Frogster? Why are you so content with you being eliminated here? I feel like you are doing the least of real-time solving this phase out of everyone left in the game - let me know if that seems unfair. Your focus seems to be

It just seems like you are the odd one out in terms of your reaction to pressure and I don't think it's particularly towny.

I don't know this might be bad reasoning I'm feeling incredibly achey and feverish and a little delirious right now so it's possible this read is horrid but I just can't shake the feeling you'd have a little more self-doubt here as town??

[Thestatusquo]

I just have a hard time seeing gammas interactions with fire being directed towards a buddy.

Do you disagree?

[Thestatusquo]

I also think you're giving frogster too much credit.

I don't think reacting angrily like this is out of his scum range at all, and I have a hard time making the assumption that frogster would know what getting to endgame looks like. I would say his play matched what you're talking about pretty neatly before he started getting sussed from 4 people at once to which I would say if you're getting attacked by 4 people any other plans to hit end game have to go out the window to max defend yourself right now because your end game plans don't matter if you're limmed today.

It's what caused me to say this:

The other thing that I find striking is there seems to me to be a marked difference in how frogster has approached today compared to other days in tone and substance. Previous days there were a lot of loud proclamations about who was scum and a lot of antagonism towards scum reads as well as sort of a brash confidence which seems to be completely gone today. He is definitely coasting. Unlike the other players who seem to have hesitation based off of being genuinely unsure of who could be scum out of the options frogster just doesn't seem to be thinking about it all that much.

I am kind of taken with that post that dannflor called town from frogster because something I try to do a lot is listen to people when they talk about things that they think about wrt others alignment because frequently they take those observations with their self as a baseline. Frogster said he thought I might be town because I haven't "burned out." But it seems like he himself has burned out a bit here.

I also like...I'm starting to think it might not be TOO tinfoil to think titus might be a gated SK. I just can't get over the lack of shot or CC from nero, and I think it would kind of explain the balance here which I think might be slightly town sided with just 5 goons?

On the other hand universal backup doesn't make a ton of sense in the setup without the two vigs? Maybe it does? Does universal backup copy masons? I assume so?

[Thestatusquo]

This is not super important to resolve right now obviously but I'm gunna keep bringing it up because I really don't want it to get lost in the shuffle.

[Thestatusquo]

I don't know how fireisred plays normally, but one of the things that's skeeved me out the literal whole game is he seems very interested in pointing out minor inconsistencies in things people say but doesn't seem interested in talking about people Sussing him at all. I remember a very consistent pattern of him not responding to points against him from me for like most of the game, and I wasn't really sure if I found that to be townie or scummy. I think that at the very least the thing you're calling out here has been pretty consistent the whole game. Whether thats a component of town!fire's game normally I have no idea.

[fireisredsir]

i mean my mindset rn is that i think the poe is correct and also i kinda expected to not be alive at this point

everyone else feels p genuine and have things from earlier in the game to make me think they're not scum

and even shea i think is a lot less likely to be scum than frog

like yea i could be wrong on frog. i am never fully confident in anything. i was rereading ktane this morning and seeing just how unbelievable a lot of frog's progressions were in there so yea, i get it, it's possible that he does this as town. but he also reverts to lurking and lack of any more real solving in lategame when he's scum, just like he's doing here. and none of his latest posting feels like anything that would take any real town thought to make

im very aware that people would townread me for paranoiaing on someone towny here. that would prob be my gameplan if i were scum. it's something that is easy and fun for me to do. but i don't think it's something that is actually towny. and i don't think it would be useful to town for me to let my doubts lead me in random other directions

[fireisredsir]

and im also aware that yesterday with me casing GL is like p close to how i would play things as scum (maybe? probably? idk the csf thing makes it weird, i dunno how i would have dealt with that) and so like yes i get it

[Thestatusquo]

I also don't think it's a coincidence that the brash accusatory attacking tone came back as soon as I noted that shift. I don't know if town frogster would react to that call-out in the same way but i guess it's possible.

[Ausuka]

i feel like an asshole now lol

i didn't mean to lash out, i thought datisi was criticising me poking around deas without scumreading him and tried to respond that i thought it was unreasonable to expect me not to do that, i don't mean to lash out at anyone suspecting me. i did not even perceive that as datisi suspecting me but saying my posts were pointless.

i think i tend to do badly in arguments with emotions involved and i think my words here portrayed more than i was actually feeling. i am going to stop playing mafia soon and then i will try to sort that out.

[fireisredsir]

I don't know how fireisred plays normally, but one of the things that's skeeved me out the literal whole game is he seems very interested in pointing out minor inconsistencies in things people say but doesn't seem interested in talking about people Sussing him at all. I remember a very consistent pattern of him not responding to points against him from me for like most of the game, and I wasn't really sure if I found that to be townie or scummy. I think that at the very least the thing you're calling out here has been pretty consistent the whole game. Whether thats a component of town!fire's game normally I have no idea.

i don't really remember any actual points you've made against me tbh

ik a lot of people like to read and sort others based on suspicion of themselves but thats not really something i tend to do, im usually more interested in looking at how people interact with each other

[Thestatusquo]

I think you're fine. It's an emotional game.

[Thestatusquo]

I don't know how fireisred plays normally, but one of the things that's skeeved me out the literal whole game is he seems very interested in pointing out minor inconsistencies in things people say but doesn't seem interested in talking about people Sussing him at all. I remember a very consistent pattern of him not responding to points against him from me for like most of the game, and I wasn't really sure if I found that to be townie or scummy. I think that at the very least the thing you're calling out here has been pretty consistent the whole game. Whether thats a component of town!fire's game normally I have no idea.

i don't really remember any actual points you've made against me tbh

ik a lot of people like to read and sort others based on suspicion of themselves but thats not really something i tend to do, im usually more interested in looking at how people interact with each other

That second paragraph is what I'm interested in, because that does seem to be the vibe I got from how you approached my pretty consistent suspicion of you the whole game, which is why I haven't really mentioned this before, it just seemed germane to what dannflor was saying so I wanted to note that its something I've noticed about you the whole game so that can be part of his analysis.

[Thestatusquo]

i feel like an asshole now lol

i didn't mean to lash out, i thought datisi was criticising me poking around deas without scumreading him and tried to respond that i thought it was unreasonable to expect me not to do that, i don't mean to lash out at anyone suspecting me. i did not even perceive that as datisi suspecting me but saying my posts were pointless.

i think i tend to do badly in arguments with emotions involved and i think my words here portrayed more than i was actually feeling. i am going to stop playing mafia soon and then i will try to sort that out.

Also as someone coming off a really long break because of very similar emotional issues I just want to say that I understand and that my long "retirement" did me a lot of good, but I've very much enjoyed playing this game and you've been a pretty big part of that so like...don't be so hard on yourself ok?

Also, consider playing LSGs while you're mafia breaking.

[fireisredsir]

i think that generally i have a p good idea of what people's expectations for me are

it means that as scum i enjoy playing around those expectations and i think it's one of my strengths

but as town it usually means that i am like, more understanding than i maybe should be about people's scumreads on me? cause its like, okay, i see you had these expectations of how i should play, and i didn't meet those, so it's fair that you suspect me

the one place where i find it useful for sorting is if someone that I know is pushing using reasoning that they should really know better about, but thats actually pretty rare

it does make me easier to lim tho so idk maybe i should have more scrutiny on the scumreads on me

but like rn i don't feel like any of them are at all unreasonable, besides frog, but his suspicion on me isn't even part of why i suspect him bc being unreasonable is not out of character for him as town

[fireisredsir]

actually thinking about it, as someone who doesn't really like arguing or being around emotional arguments at all, idk why i play this game lmao

[DeasVail]

I'm going to steamroll you into the dirt scum!tisi, I want to have your skull embedded in my throne.

damn, this was a good quote

anyway

i went to check frogs's behaviour in bunnies when he was getting pushed, and hm. in that game, his behaviour was much more centered around "x y and z are scum! this is why they are scum! please listen to me you fucking idiots!" while his behaviour here is more like "these cases of me are utter shit! you're town but i am gonna be spending so much time making fun of the cases against me!"

do i have strong conclusions here? not exactly. sample size 1 etc etc. but i wanna see frogs answer my q in 8417.

Sorry, I should check this myself but what was frog in bunnies

[Datisi]

town

[Datisi]

On the other hand universal backup doesn't make a ton of sense in the setup without the two vigs? Maybe it does? Does universal backup copy masons? I assume so?

it does copy masons too, yeah

and i don't think gated serial killer makes any sense because that role would just be an incredible "fuck you" to whoever randed it (sk is already shit to play, imagine being gated)

the only way an sk makes sense (imho) is if the sk was shooting every night and doubled up on kills with scum at points

[Thestatusquo]

Yeah maybe. I just don't understand neros play from a town pov at all. And we're still waiting for the titus full claim iirc.

[Dannflor]

actually thinking about it, as someone who doesn't really like arguing or being around emotional arguments at all, idk why i play this game lmao

I don't either

I like the more collaborative nature of it generally

[fireisredsir]

the biggest thing is that for like the majority of this game frog hasn't actually had any reads of his own

he doesn't now

he started the game just building a towncore and then deciding who to push based on their suspicions (which, as i said at the time, is probably the most pro-town ive ever seen frog play. it was p useful and i think helped us have good directions to push as a town. i think multiple people at the time myself included said that if frog was scum he was probably bussing his whole team, and we might as well let him)

the only time he's really displayed that extreme overconfidence has been with tweet and mena, and both of those had basically no basis behind them, they just flipped from townreads to scumreads as soon as they replaced in

in midgame he did have a strong suspicion on SS, and even apparently went through meta to try to back it up. i think that read is one of the towniest things he's done individually. but i still think the overall pattern is tone-matching the confidence of his towngame but without any actual support behind it

[Dannflor]

meh idk

i guess i just think it is in [fire, frogster]

[fireisredsir]

and i don't think that matches up with his town play

frog town absolutely has reads. they're usually pretty out there, but he definitely has them, and he will let you know about them, and there is actual thought going on behind them

which is why i don't think his response about how everyone's case on him is trash but still hesitant to really call anyone scum off it is not towny at all

[fireisredsir]

meh idk

i guess i just think it is in [fire, frogster]

hey me too

[Thestatusquo]

On the other hand universal backup doesn't make a ton of sense in the setup without the two vigs? Maybe it does? Does universal backup copy masons? I assume so?

it does copy masons too, yeah

and i don't think gated serial killer makes any sense because that role would just be an incredible "fuck you" to whoever randed it (sk is already shit to play, imagine being gated)

the only way an sk makes sense (imho) is if the sk was shooting every night and doubled up on kills with scum at points

I guess I feel pretty strongly that town nero probably would have shot me instead of enchant if he wasn't going to shoot the claim?

I didn't think about this at all but I guess I kind of feel strongly that Nero's actions make NO sense as town.