Mini Normal 2283 - Game Over!

[Firebringer]

Lean scum: HPE, BBT, Aisa

take out BBT and I agree with this right now

[Firebringer]

Eira/Frogster are my last scum right now.
Not really sus of anyone else.

[Thestatusquo]

Do you not see a fundamental difference in how we're arguing with each other right now and how BBT engaged with my post 360?

Like I think the fundamental disconnect here is you seem to be treating the engagement between me and BBT as if we had been engaged for a long time and that BBT and I had been attcking them and they were just sick of arguing with me or whatever, but that's not what happened. That was their initial engagement with me. I think that's relatively important because while I agree that town can sometimes get to a point where they're just sick of engaging with someone or on a point my assumption is that they usually go into an engagement attempting to actually answer the person who is talking to them rather than immediately going to discredit them based off of the very smallest amount of shade.

[Thestatusquo]

Sorry 360 is the post where i talk about it not the post I meant to reference which was my initial engagement post.

[Thestatusquo]

Also, go sleep bro.

[Not_Mafia]

Someone quote a post they want me to respond to

Sheep me buddy, you owe me for voting me that one time when u were scum.
Now im calling in the u owe me card

Cool, who am I voting?

[Not_Mafia]

Someone quote a post they want me to respond to

NM is my biggest scum read

Well Solway Firth is wrong

[Not_Mafia]

Someone quote a post they want me to respond to

NM is my biggest scum read

Well Solway Firth is wrong

[Not_Mafia]

btw I'm still not quite sure why N_M is allowed to play mafia given that every time I've been in a game with him he does not in fact in any way play mafia.

Maybe I'm just playing at a level that you don't comprehend

[Thestatusquo]

I agree that I don't comprehend it.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: HPE

Just skimming, but 517 is a take I agree with, which I touched lightly on in an earlier post.

I haven’t posted a list yet because I’d probably waffle too much. I’ll post one when I can sit down and take in the thread as a whole.

I could get behind this.

Actually, I changed my mind. I’ll be V/LA for the weekend. Got a lot of plans, but also I want to obsess over the Dead by Daylight event.

Will probably do my reread Sunday or Monday.

TSQ, if you could at least help me understand the HPE townread? Or point to where you talked about it, if you did.

DBD player? We're gonna have to talk post-game!

Reading through the BBT/Shea fight, BBT’s reaction to Shea seems very avoidant of the actual questions Shea’s asking him. I also like the way Shea presents the case, his tone gives off legitimate charisma and annoyance meanwhile BBT comes off as more forced.

BBT's answers to Shea are focused on what was a very poor initial reason for pushing me. As soon as I read that, I didn't bother reading anything else in the post because the first part was so bad.

Why would I bother to engage further when the premise of the post is so far off-base?

I don’t understand BBT strong townread on Bella. Bella’s ISO is some posts complaining about the game state and a bit fairly good content. I don’t see anything that jumps out as a shining beacon of towniness, Bella’s tone seems neither towny nor scummy and her analysis isn’t very deep.

My town read on Bella comes from playing with Bella an awful lot. She was to the point with early reads and I think this is much more likely to come from town!Bella.

Town addresses my questions. Town doesn't spend their whole post harping on whether they said "defensive much" or "over defensive" while ignoring the rest of the post.

It's not 100% because scum tells never are but I think its more than enough for a day 1 wagon.

Town get annoyed at people making bad pushes. Town get annoyed when people twist what they say or misrep it completely, too.

But also, uh, you're right, maybe I'm being a bit too conservative. I don't know if this does anything since maybe I have killed any pretense of pressure with this post and my previous one, but have this as a show of good faith:
VOTE: BBT

I guess BBT said he'll be looking at the game soon, so let's say that I will commit to seeing what he comes up with and decide whether to leave my vote here or not based on what he says ^^

P-edit: oh dear you guys are prolific

You can take your vote off now, thanks.

VOTE: solway

Solway is low posting scum writing longer catchup posts to try and get Townread.

Low

certainty.

This is a bad vote.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

If anyone wants to talk, I'm here.

A little tired, and a little drunk, but reckon I can hold a conversation!

[Thestatusquo]

Reading through the BBT/Shea fight, BBT’s reaction to Shea seems very avoidant of the actual questions Shea’s asking him. I also like the way Shea presents the case, his tone gives off legitimate charisma and annoyance meanwhile BBT comes off as more forced.

BBT's answers to Shea are focused on what was a very poor initial reason for pushing me. As soon as I read that, I didn't bother reading anything else in the post because the first part was so bad.

Why would I bother to engage further when the premise of the post is so far off-base?

This is disingenuous. You made the post that didn't answer the questions before I started pushing you.

Town get annoyed at people making bad pushes. Town get annoyed when people twist what they say or misrep it completely, too.

And that would be, again, relevant if you had reacted after I started pushing you instead of before. I reaction tested you, and then your reaction to that is why I started pushing you. This is a wild misrepresentation of what happened. Just go back and read. You made a post. I reaction tested you. You failed the reaction test. THEN I started pushing you.

[Thestatusquo]

Ok, can you answer me this then. If you're not saying that its alignment indicative, what is your point in pointing it out using a buzz word like "overdefensive" which is frequently associated with scumminess? If you're not saying its scummy it seems an awful lot like well poisoning to me.

What are you trying to accomplish in your questions with Eirolox? Because it seems to me a lot like you're grandstanding with no particular purpose towards discerning alignment.

Once again, this is the initial post where I asked you the questions and did the reaction testing. Before that I set it up with this post:

I hate "overdefensive" as a thing that people say in mafia games.

It's a buzzword that means nothing. Townies defend themselves. Sometimes excessively. Overdefensiveness is not alignment indicative in literally any way.

Like maybe if you drill down to a meta analysis of how players react to pressure you can find slight differences in SPECIFIC players but I think that even that is frequently better explained by general mood and tone of the person attacking them than alignment and it's almost never part of the analysis, just like its not here.

And

I don't like the dismissive tone in BBTs posts because it seems like its not productive towards doing anything BUT producing defensiveness and certainly not in solving for alignment.

You're saying that using the term "overdefensive" instead of "defensive much" saying I don't like it and then asking you some questions about what you were trying to accomplish was a push so bad it caused you to ignore everything I said after? Yeah ok duder.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I am fully caught up. My most confident scumread right now is BBT.

Umm, what?

Don't like that

Talk about your scum read on me, would you?

So the argument can be represented syllogistically like this

1) Scum are more likely to focus on winning the argument than discerning alignment.
2) In a post with multiple points to answer scum will be more likely to focus on the easiest points to dismiss in an attempt to discredit.
3) Town will tend to do the opposite.
4) BBT didn't address the rest of my points at all and focused exclusively on the deliberately weak one
5) Therefore BBT is more likely to be scum.

Which of those points do you disagree with, exaclty?

1. Town can just as easily be focused on winning an argument - it's the whole point of this game.
2. Town will focus on the part of a post that they consider the worst. If the whole premise of the post is off-base, why engage the rest?
3. Not true
4. BBT focused on the point that was flat out false.
5. Therefore you can't discern the difference between play-style and AI posting.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

If you don't think those posts are you pushing me then I don't know what to say...

[Thestatusquo]

If you think "please explain your reasoning for this because I don't like it and I don't like your tone" is pushing then honestly I question if you've ever played mafia before.

[Thestatusquo]

I am fully caught up. My most confident scumread right now is BBT.

Umm, what?

Don't like that

Talk about your scum read on me, would you?

So the argument can be represented syllogistically like this

1) Scum are more likely to focus on winning the argument than discerning alignment.
2) In a post with multiple points to answer scum will be more likely to focus on the easiest points to dismiss in an attempt to discredit.
3) Town will tend to do the opposite.
4) BBT didn't address the rest of my points at all and focused exclusively on the deliberately weak one
5) Therefore BBT is more likely to be scum.

Which of those points do you disagree with, exaclty?

1. Town can just as easily be focused on winning an argument - it's the whole point of this game.
2. Town will focus on the part of a post that they consider the worst. If the whole premise of the post is off-base, why engage the rest?
3. Not true
4. BBT focused on the point that was flat out false.
5. Therefore you can't discern the difference between play-style and AI posting.

You can say all those things but historically that has not been my experience so I'll trust that over the caught scum saying whatever.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

If you think "please explain your reasoning for this because I don't like it and I don't like your tone" is pushing then honestly I question if you've ever played mafia before.

If you don't think that not liking a post and not liking someone's tone doesn't equal a scum read then I have to ask if you ever have played Mafia before?

[Thestatusquo]

Yes, I was suspicious of you. There is a difference between being suspicious of someone and pushing them. There is an even wider difference between that and a push that was so unhinged and aggressive that your only response to it was to shut down and avoid the conversation entirely?

It is simply put laughable to claim that those three posts amounted to such a bad and ferocious push that poor townie you just couldn't bear to respond any longer.

It's literally laughable.

[Thestatusquo]

I just don't buy any of your deal. What are your reads? You're voting me still for no reason.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Again, that's not what I said.

You keep doing that

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm voting you for a horrific push on me.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Bella and Fire are town. Grib and Solway probably, too.

Frog and HPE probably scum

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Like, in what world do town go 'Hey, they guy is using really bad reasoning to scum read me so he must be town'