Mini Normal 2285: GM [game over]

[Toto]

I want to hear any further claims today before I release what I know to get max value.

[innocentvillager]

I want to hear any further claims today before I release what I know to get max value.

This was a townie post

[unwnd]

Uh bub check his role

[Toto]

Wut

[Freedom]

I feel freedon is still getting some free passes.

Why?

[geraintm]

@herta
My vote was random. I believe your post was 21 after my initial entry.
..
I am not claiming anything.

Weekends I am around less often, so don't think just because I am motnposting it is deliberate..

This game BTW has don't nothing but reinforce my "I hate day 1" thinking. If you think I am bad this game, just wait till my next one when I can bring this one up as recent evidence.

[geraintm]

I feel freedon is still getting some free passes.

Why?

Freedom

i confess,i had no idea this player was in the game they made such low impact on me

In post 722, Freedom wrote:
In post 717, Toto wrote:
It would help if people not voting start voting someone, we need more drama to sort this out.

OK.
VOTE: gera


that was their initial vote.
It stinks.
since then they have barely been in the game. they agreed with a post Val made about me, and that is about it.

Dislike this slot, would lean scum on it and they are getting away with being on my wagon way too easily.

^^^
I just lifted the above from a post I did earlier in the game. The slot is, I suspect, very happy with how things have gone this game

[geraintm]

On the first layer he disappears whenever possible, hoping that others will forget he is present in the game. (His absence of meaningful thought and refusal to get involved with the content between 332 and 572, not to mention most of the discussion which he lurked actively through between his posts 18 and 330.)

This is bollocks. I didn't disappear. There was 24 hours between 332 and 572. Posting once a day is reasonable activity. It could be better sure, but I check in every day.

And you say I lurk....Well yes I do, because day 1 is pointless!

[geraintm]

On the second layer he pretends to be meek and humble, hoping that others will feel sorry for him and vote someone else. (330, 763, 767 -which is refuted by pookythebear in 836 and 838-, 854 which is unbelievable, 857, etc.)

I don't pretend to be meek and humble. I say I am a bad player who gets better as the game goes on. Someone who lost to me when I was scum has a problem with me, but that doesn't alter the truth of my abilities as town

[geraintm]

On his third and final layer he creates intrigue and confusion about his role, hoping others will become uncomfortable with the ambiguity behind his refusal to claim and move on to someone else

I suppose this js true.
As I have said, I am not claiming anything.
Day 1 where scum whip round loads of wagons forcing a succession of claims is not good for town.

[Freedom]

The slot is, I suspect, very happy with how things have gone this game

I am not.
I would be fine if you refused to claim the first time but you're still refusing to claim.
I'm starting to think that you have some role that is rare for Town to have.

[geraintm]

It is odd Scoliosis, I have you pegged as bad town and I don't think you are going to sway me from that thr rest of the game

[Scoliosis]

I'm starting to think that you have some role that is rare for Town to have.

Yes and geraintmn doesn't have a fake claim prepared yet so he's milking the mysterious card.

[Scoliosis]

Are you townreading gera now, Freedom?

Not yet.
I feel like their refusal to claim feels a bit odd.
Though, I would consider them nullish.
UNVOTE:

His refusal to claim is +scum.

Geraintm's scum strategy can be broken down into three layers of defense:

On the first layer he disappears whenever possible, hoping that others will forget he is present in the game. (His absence of meaningful thought and refusal to get involved with the content between 332 and 572, not to mention most of the discussion which he lurked actively through between his posts 18 and 330.)

On the second layer he pretends to be meek and humble, hoping that others will feel sorry for him and vote someone else. (330, 763, 767 -which is refuted by pookythebear in 836 and 838-, 854 which is unbelievable, 857, etc.)

On his third and final layer he creates intrigue and confusion about his role, hoping others will become uncomfortable with the ambiguity behind his refusal to claim and move on to someone else. (894)

I see.
I had thought that his refusal to claim was just a playstyle oddity.
Though, it does seem like maybe it isn't as I thought.
VOTE: gera again.

I thjnk refusal/cryptic/drawn out claiming is on average quite towny in my empirical experience. Scol’s theory is like possible but it’s more of a hindsight/confbias narrative kind of read imo

I don't agree with this by the way and your vote switch makes me raise my eyebrows a little bit.

[KittyTacky]

I feel freedon is still getting some free passes.

Freedom is town.

[Datisi]

vote count 1.14

with 13 votes in play, it takes 7 to make a decision. day 1 ends in (expired on 2022-12-06 00:45:52).

yeet

Scoliosis [5]:

KittyTacky, Dannflor, Val89, unwnd, innocentvillager

geraintm [4]:

Scoliosis,

Toto

, Freedom, Herta

Herta [1]:

geraintm

unwnd [1]:

skitter30

not voting [2]:

Ydrasse, PookyTheMagicalBear

mod notes

~ this is a mod note

flavour

[Toto]

I feel freedon is still getting some free passes.

Freedom is town.

Tell me more

[Val89]

I defend Gera because this behavior is NAI for Gera and he's more likely town than scum here.

I'm sorry, but I can't see geraintm's play coming from town here anymore; unless he is consciously and deliberately throwing this town game in return for an easier time of it in their next scum game - which frankly is an absolutely shitty thing to do to those of us playing this one. I'm sure someone will correct me if I am mistaken, but I didn't see a refusal to claim being a feature of his D1 play previously and this in particular is a game where we have an IC hinting, if not explicitly claiming by 1075, that they are also an informed IC with info that can help evaluate the veracity of role-claims.

To my eyes, this goes both ways: it makes it harder to for scum to fakeclaim, but it also means town

should

claim in this position, since there is a higher than usual chance of a role-claim, particularly an unusual one, passing the ICs sniff-test and in this particular scenario, since the info is unknown in advance and the source of it when outted is mod-confirmed trustworthy, that being treated as sufficient town-evidence to dodge the lim that might otherwise come.

[Val89]

As I have said, I am not claiming anything.

Posting once a day is reasonable activity.

Weekends I am around less often, so don't think just because I am motnposting it is deliberate..

I think it's also clear that gera is laying out in advance his game plan here. I am starting to wonder, in fact, if gera WANTS to be limmed here - scum could just always claim VT here.

Two issues that come to mind is that I don't know how a theoretical town!gera doesn't realise with 2 and half days weekend days left how this lim isn't 90% locked in between them and Sco today - I am aware gera is telling us they thing Sco is town (simply because a wagon formed on them D1, right?) but town!gera also knows for sure a lim on them is a mislim, where there is still a chance, even a small one, of a Sco one still hitting scum.

The second that, even with all that evidence in the play other the last 2 day, I still don't know how we can best distinguish between scum (probably a goon, given the play) and bad town not only bad in a gameplay sense but also being shitty. The best chance is probably a claim (first) combined with Totos info, but I don't know how to force the claim here. My initial thought was to suggest Toto hopping off, running gera up to E-1 and giving Toto the hammer; but that does run the risk of losing Totos info if gera self-hammers, or a partner not on the wagon decides its worth the trade-off and its not the sort of info that appears on the role PM on flip.

[geraintm]

I am not trying to do badly in this game for any reason. That goes against the rules doesn't it? Everyone should always play to win.
I don't want to lose. I don't want to be eliminated. I have no strong thoughts about who else should be - though I have come up with a small group I am sus of - and I have one player who I think is town and won't vote for.

It is awkward that thr competing wagon to me is the person I town read, not going to lie about that.

[geraintm]

I am not going to self hammer

[geraintm]

@val I think I have expressed the thought previously that players being run up day 1 to force claims is bad. It just means that at thr end of day 1 scum not only get a free kill, but get info about possible roles that town have. It is just bad eV for town in my opinion for a series of town roles to be flushed out so early

[geraintm]

I'm starting to think that you have some role that is rare for Town to have.

Yes and geraintmn doesn't have a fake claim prepared yet so he's milking the mysterious card.

It is amazing how you manage to see the worst in all my actions at every single moment. The timing of my posts, thr length kf my posts, my warning people I am less likely to be online at thr weekends, that I have not made a claim because I am just waiting to come out with a fake claim.

When I get flipped green, I would like you to acknowledge that your read of me has been 100% wrong and your overconfidence has been entirely misplaced, and I refuse you to allow the excuse of " he didn't givr me any option, he was so scummy"!
It is not my fault that you have decided for whatever reason that I am scum and are subsequently reading every single one of my actions as scummy, even when I have done my best to respond to your jabs and you have not responded to them at all.

[Val89]

Maybe someone will have an idea in that respect, otherwise I actually thing the best play here is to just lim Gera.

I don't really want to play along with the scum plan if that is what they were hoping would happen, but the thing is I don't really think I can say that a scum!Sco can't be bussing gera, particularly if they flip goon. I think Sco is scummy on the basis that I can't make the answers they give when questioned on things that seem out there make sense on questioning, the fact they continue to remain willing to attempt to explain is a point in their favour, and I could see a (less likely but possible world) where Sco is town but has just a widely divergent worldview on the game that I'm not understanding and finding them scummy as a result; whereas at this point the only way I can see a town!gera at this point is, as I said, someone willing to gimp this game for future advantage, and if we do mislim today, I would rather have the former around going forward than the later.

I don't think Sco's flip would give us much of a clue on gera's alignment either way, and vice-versa, actually, so that's pretty much the deciding factor for me.

pedit: Noted your posting. I'll post this as is then respond.

[Val89]

@val I think I have expressed the thought previously that players being run up day 1 to force claims is bad. It just means that at thr end of day 1 scum not only get a free kill, but get info about possible roles that town have. It is just bad eV for town in my opinion for a series of town roles to be flushed out so early

How many scum do you suppose are in this game?

If you are in a position D1 where you are forced to claim because you are wagoned, at least some of the persons on your wagon are persons who think your play is scummy enough to warrant that. I acknowledge your view that D1 is pants enough that any wagon reaching that range is likely to have scum help, but even you have to acknowledge they can't do it alone' and the chances of another TPR being flashwagoned if you do claim seem low; I don't see how you think a series of town roles will end up being flushed out with your claim.

If you think scum have wagoned you deliberately in order to force a claim, that's unfortunate; but it's tough shit at this point. You don't claim, you are getting limmed if I have anything to do with it. It's just too much +scum to do otherwise.

Also, let's be honest, if there is any game you should be claiming as town here, it is this one - in most games, it is true that unless you are claiming something super powerful or easily confirmable, the likelihood is you are getting limmed anyway despite the claim. Here, we have an IC saying they can help evaluate the veracity of the claim. If your claim fits with what info Totos has, there is a good chance we avoid your mislim today.

I am not trying to do badly in this game for any reason. That goes against the rules doesn't it? Everyone should always play to win.
I don't want to lose. I don't want to be eliminated.

You will have to forgive me for believing that if you are town you are

willing

to do badly in this game for an advantage at a future scum one. If even you truly, deeply, genuinely believe that it is +town EV to refuse to play D1, and that includes refusing the claim, then there are special circumstances in this game that mean that is not the case in this one in particular.

I've spelt them out. I don't believe you are stupid.

Your choices are to either claim, and if it matches with Totos info, possibly escape what you represent is a mislim, gain some towncred you can try to use to direct the lim away from your other townread and on to one of those you would prefer to go today at the expense of having outed in a game where there is an IC scum probably have to also target at some point anyway, in a position where if you don't, town is losing the use of whatever role you claim to have anyway.

Or you don't claim, and you get limmed, and town loses whatever role anyway, as well as a mislim. Certainly, I will be directing all my energies for the rest of this day phase into getting you limmed.

Not claiming here is so bad for town; and claiming so bad for scum scum and good for town that not claiming is absolutely a scumclaim, or absolutely idiotic and amounts to a townthrow, and I think you HAVE to see that, frankly.