Mini Normal 2285: GM [game over]

[geraintm]

Based on your recent posting, it sounds like if Scol hadn't claimed then you wouldn't be as opposed to claiming. So every claim in your eyes is severely -EV to town. Is that correct?

My question to you is: Do you really think the difference between 0->1 claims is not as large as the difference between 1-2 claims?

I would say no, and I think you need to present a compelling argument if you believe otherwise.

The fact of the matter is, Scol has already claimed, we cannot change that 1 person has claimed. So if you would claim if Scol hadn't claimed but not right now, I suggest you reconsider it from a logical perspective.

geraint can you answer this please?

If you are not going to claim, I think you should at the very least genuinely look at it from the perspective of an uninformed townie in this game and suggest a reasonable course of action. I know you think Scol is townier than not, but we have to do *something*. You can bombshell a case on someone else if not. Make a case for that something even if you feel like it's choosing between the best of a few bad worlds.

I shall say again, I am not going to claim I have a role.

Do you not want to claim on D1 when you get run up in general? Is it because Scol already claimed? Is it because of the nature of your role? Help us understand so we can talk you into doing it

I know you said that you don't like running up too many people on D1 and that sentiment is somewhat understandable to me. I believe Val for example laid out a bunch of reasons why it's better for you to claim. Another relevant thing seems to be that Toto's information can help town and your claim might assist in that. Please discuss these issues in more depth or claim.

Because if you don't claim we are actually just going to kill you

First of all I would say it's important to distinguish those for clarity of communication especially in this case. You are implying that just because in one of his recent game's, scum was eliminated D1, so he should logically reverse his policy or otherwise he's scum for sticking to that belief. Clarifying that he only said d1 wagon is <rand to be town weakens that argument a lot.

The issue is I think he at the very least holds this belief as town too. I agree with you that it is "wack", and that

@geraintm needs to actually proactively contribute to and suggest town's path forward

(we have to do SOMETHING).

If we are killing geraint, I think we should be honest about how much of the kill is genuine belief in him being scum and how much of it is policy. It feels to me like part of you wanting geraint dead is emotional/policy (which is fine). I think there is a portion of my current vote on geraint that is policy too.

None of this was addressed

The only defense I hear repeated over and over again is "i don't want to die but it is bad if scum runs up 'multiple' wagons and so therefore I should just not claim despite town saying they'll kill me if I don't" which just doesnt answer any specific questions and is just a massive leap in logic imo

a claim from me that moved the wagon elsehwere would have resulted in a 3rd claim and so on...

a course of action - would no lim be ok?

[innocentvillager]

No we would've killed Scoliosis, not run up a 3rd person.

I had like at least 5 questions in there also

[innocentvillager]

I am not unvoting and Kitty is going to hammer you when he wakes up or Pooky or anyone really

Do you think your stubbornness > your death here?

[geraintm]

No we would've killed Scoliosis, not run up a 3rd person.

I had like at least 5 questions in there also

you had many questions, it is 11:30 pm here and trying to focus on what i can.

[innocentvillager]

The issue with no lim is that we don't get to see any flips. We don't even have a shot at flipping a potential scum. You think Scol is town but you yourself said d1 info is bollocks/are you THAT sure Scol is town?

[geraintm]

Do you not want to claim on D1 when you get run up in general?

^^^

i dont have any objection to claiming in principal, if people think it is best for town to claim their role then they should. i dont think it is good for town for me to say any more than i have already

[innocentvillager]

No we would've killed Scoliosis, not run up a 3rd person.

I had like at least 5 questions in there also

you had many questions, it is 11:30 pm here and trying to focus on what i can.

I understand. This may be your last night playing this game, but obviously RL comes first. Thank you for taking the time to answer questions

[geraintm]

The issue with no lim is that we don't get to see any flips. We don't even have a shot at flipping a potential scum. You think Scol is town but you yourself said d1 info is bollocks/are you THAT sure Scol is town?

we get one flip (though i do understand this game might be weird with such an obvious target, but when i was saying that earlier i assumed sscum would have to play a shell game with if they want to go after the obvious townie, knowing they might get tracked - i had zero idea about the ninja thing which complicates it).


also, in this complex game townies with roles will be able to come back tomorrow with what they know. i have always though giving scum a free death is bad, why give them a head start?

[geraintm]

@geraintm needs to actually proactively contribute to and suggest town's path forward (we have to do SOMETHING).

i would argue that i have actually put forward 3 names with actual thought to it, based on actual actions in this game (i always liek looking at actual actions in game, and votes on my wagon are real events) - which is way more than most people who have gone arond claiming people are scum because they don't like how i have posted or the lenght of time between posts.

[geraintm]

i hope that answers your questions some what, i have probably missed something.

[innocentvillager]

i have always though giving scum a free death is bad

You have said D1 wagon is < rand to hit scum. I honestly might even agree. However Pooky and I have been in games with you where scum got flipped D1. Clearly it is not always to go on town in your experience.

So why think of eliminating D1 as a free death?

It's only a free death if you don't claim and we eliminate you.

At least with Scol there's a chance he flips scum, right?

[Datisi]

prodding Scoliosis.

[innocentvillager]

@geraintm needs to actually proactively contribute to and suggest town's path forward (we have to do SOMETHING).

i would argue that i have actually put forward 3 names with actual thought to it, based on actual actions in this game (i always liek looking at actual actions in game, and votes on my wagon are real events) - which is way more than most people who have gone arond claiming people are scum because they don't like how i have posted or the lenght of time between posts.

I don't disagree that you have put out some reads/leans. I think your time between posts is fine.

I have an issue with the fact that you refuse to cooperate with town and you refuse to consider the bigger picture and come up with a practical path forward

It's not practical to wagon someone else, 2 days or right now
It's not practical to get everyone on board for no lim, you know that

It's either you claim and we kill Scoliosis
You claim and somehow you unluckily end up dying
You don't claim and you definitely die

Which one is it and why is that better?

[innocentvillager]

I really want to work with you here geraint

[geraintm]

i have always though giving scum a free death is bad

You have said D1 wagon is < rand to hit scum. I honestly might even agree. However Pooky and I have been in games with you where scum got flipped D1. Clearly it is not always to go on town in your experience.

So why think of eliminating D1 as a free death?

It's only a free death if you don't claim and we eliminate you.

At least with Scol there's a chance he flips scum, right?

yes, day 1 should be way less than random to hit scum, scum should be able to manipulate the game state so it is unusual for one of them to get caught. people will always bring up instances where scum were caught, but that is just poor anecdotal bias.

i know my reputation, and i know there is no way i will ever be allowed to coast as scum to the end game. it just wont happen. i know Scum me will die before the end of the game.

i honestly think Scol is town, way way higher than random. they have pushed me so hard and ignored eveyrhting i have said back to them....i just cannot imagine a situation they are scum and not just really bad Day 1 town who, for whatever reason decided early doors i was scum and have twisted everything i do as scmmy behaviour.

and yes, i think killing someone day 1 is effectivly a free death for Scum

[innocentvillager]

@geraintm needs to actually proactively contribute to and suggest town's path forward (we have to do SOMETHING).

i would argue that i have actually put forward 3 names with actual thought to it, based on actual actions in this game (i always liek looking at actual actions in game, and votes on my wagon are real events) - which is way more than most people who have gone arond claiming people are scum because they don't like how i have posted or the lenght of time between posts.

I don't disagree that you have put out some reads/leans. I think your time between posts is fine.

I have an issue with the fact that you refuse to cooperate with town and you refuse to consider the bigger picture and come up with a practical path forward

It's not practical to wagon someone else, 2 days or right now
It's not practical to get everyone on board for no lim, you know that

It's either you claim and we kill Scoliosis
You claim and somehow you unluckily end up dying
You don't claim and you definitely die

Which one is it and why is that better?

just wanted to bump this in case you didn't see cuz ik ur sleeping soon

[geraintm]

I have an issue with the fact that you refuse to cooperate with town

what have i done exactly? i think my wagon is not pure. the wagon is demanding i explicitly claim. why should i cooperate with that?
i have played the game as townie as i can, trying to go through the arguments people have put against me or called out the players who i think were voting me for piss poor reasons. i got either no response or "well, yeah, my initial reason was bad but now you won't play to our rules so you deserve to go"

Or i get Unwnd saying me and Scol are partners?!

unwnd starts off with saying they arent paying me any attention, then sticks me in their top 2 scum, then copy your vote to justify their vote, and is ending up beleiving i am scum with SCol?

Freedom

they vote me liek this

It would help if people not voting start voting someone, we need more drama to sort this out.

OK.
VOTE: gera

and then revote me after coming off because they agree with Scoloisis that my not explicity claiming is scummy and seem to have stuck on my lack of claim as a reason to keep on voting me. they dont ever respond to me, they ducked away and only came back after getting approval from others to vote for me

Dannflor is now on scolosis....they managed to get the pressure on me and then run away despite pushing me to 1 away from elimination and chanting claim at me - why have they moved off? they never explained why

[geraintm]

so i disagree with your idea that i havent been "cooperating" with town - i really dont think the push for an explciit claim from me comes from town

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

gonna hammer in an hour so if you have anything more to say just get it out

[innocentvillager]

geraint the entire town including the IC with potentially valuable information related to your claim wants you to claim even if now everyone has explicitly said it

Certainly zero people have argued against it

but yeah get to the last part before you respond to this

[innocentvillager]

*even if not everyone has explicitly said it

[innocentvillager]

If you die it will be noted by us that you think unwnd, Freedom, and Dannflor's votes on you are sus. But that's not the urgent issue at hand

[Ydrasse]

dude just claim my god

[Val89]

i really dont think the push for an explciit claim from me comes from town

By Jove, they've cracked it! The scumsolve is Me, IV, KT, Toto and Ydrasse; we were all just too smooth brained to see it!

Look, I know the idea here is that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar, but that approach only works if you are dealing with someone talking to you in good faith, and you are letting gera bloat the thread with obvious, surface-level rubbish here.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

VOTE: Gera