House of the Dragon - Game Over!

[Datisi]

i think the post is clearly implying "shea MAY give that duty to a different council member, but he is not REQUIRED to give that duty to anyone", as opposed to "he is not required to give it exclusively in the council"; notice the "no more than 2 roles" rule.

you are free to ask pooky, tho.

[Enchant]

I still think granting Whisperer is not worth it at this point

[Datisi]

i find it weird that seemingly no consistent counterwagon is happening here again, but uh.

It's

almost

like the town has had no cohesion whereas the scum have been unified, and thus the things happening have largely been at the behest of the scum!

ooooor townies have found each other and are influencing the game while the scum isn't sure what to do or how to get into the townblock... but sure.

[Firebringer]

Are we doing a repeat of dwlee with hesitation to buss or something.

Also how do you know whether scum were hesitant to bus Dwlee?

i said this yesterday that there felt like a weird hesitation to vote dwlee.
still think that was hesitant on bussing. Not sure who but yes there was unspoken hesitation i was vibing in the thread at the time that i thought was weird as hell.

how does this fit with this:

really any alignment flip on dwlee will likely not change my mind on Shea. Dwlee!scum flip would lead me to believe theres definitely bussers that i will try to evaluate tho

not sure what ur talking about dats.
those 2 are like me saying same thing.
there was hesitation on dwleee wagon and the people that jumped on were bussers.

[Datisi]

i mean

to me it reads like the first one is saying "scum was hesitant to bus" and the second one is saying "there are definitely bussers" and idgi

[Firebringer]

It feels like almost everyone is on board with it but I feel like there’s unspoken hesitation with it going to the end
It could just be no one wants to rush day but few people have expressed that who haven’t voted

I guess I’m in that boat but it does seem strange how only Shea is the vocal dwlee supporter

this was my post talking about the weird hesitation for voting dwlee which was like 2-3 pages before the one u quoted

[Firebringer]

i mean

to me it reads like the first one is saying "scum was hesitant to bus" and the second one is saying "there are definitely bussers" and idgi

i obviously think they were hesitant and that they still did buss....are u confused that u think im arguing scum didn't buss or something

[Datisi]

idk what you were arguing, i just wanted to clear that up

[Firebringer]

dats did u or did u not feel extreme hesitation from people voting dwlee yesterday.
And do you think that applies to Johnny or Unowen today.

I am guessing like guilty u think people are hesitating for johnny but in my eyes, i have a lot of feelings on Rhae town and think more people see that (or maybe just mastina) and thats why that wagon doesn't go. With Unowen....i don't know whats going on.

[Datisi]

considering how long it took to get them over, yes i do feel like there was resistance and weirdness

i do feel like people are hesitating somewhat similarly on johnny, yes. because some people also did have a lot of feelings on dwlee being town too

i will not pretend that i know what is going on with unowen (or hell, even roden) wagons

[Firebringer]

VOTE: Johnny Farrar
W/e i disagree with this but lets get some people moving.

The people not voting need to stop fence sitting

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

JohnnyFarrar has not picked up his prod and will be replaced - if he posts prior to me finding a replacement he may continue to play

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Execution Vote Day Three

With seventeen players alive - it will require nine votes to eliminate a player.

JohnnyFarrar [7]:

VP Baltar, GuiltyLion, Unowen, Andresvmb, furtiveglance, Datisi, Firebringer

Unowen [1]:

ProfessorDrapion

Dannflor [1]:

mastina,

Lady Lambdadelta [1]:

Dannflor

furtiveglance [1]:

fireisredsir,

fireisredsir [1]:

Lady Lambdadelta

not voting [5]:

JohnnyFarrar, Titus, Roden, Enchant, thestatusquo

Execution Deadline: (expired on 2022-12-08 14:58:35)

mod note

VP Baltar is VLA Sat-Mon

[Thestatusquo]

So are we down for the plan of giving the role to johnny, yeeting johnny and then picking someone else to give both rolls to? Thats currently my plan.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Andresvmb has been appointed Master of Whisperers

JohnnyFarrar has been appointed Grand Maester

[fireisredsir]

It might help me with Kingsguard selections if I can avoid some slots I may be misreading. I have furtive on the outside of my Town core. Not quite Scum but in my POE. But I don’t see them as a priority. Do you TR Johnny here?

yes, mostly bc of the time rhae spent in the slot. i don't think johnny looks great here but i don't think he ever does from what ive seen reading past games

i looked at rhae's past scum games and for the majority of them i didn't find anything at all close to this and felt like she was super polarized, so i was feeling p good about a townread there, but then i got to this game:

viewtopic.php?f=84&t=73460&user_select%5B%5D=27825

where i think she gets close to a similar style of play, including some similar emotional appeals and posting about how everyone is against her. so im a bit less confident on that read now, but i still lean town. i think the approach she had just doesn't feel calculated or like she was trying to get townread at all. even in the linked game she only really pulls out the emotional stuff when she needs to, she starts out a lot more controlled and just trying to blend in. i don't think her play here fits with having a scum goal in mind

unwnd i think is probably a harder read, i think some of the suspicion there was valid but when i was reading along i also liked what he was saying about datisi so

And I’ve selected UNOwen twice I think? For the Kingsguard? So we’re disagreeing there a bit. I had him as my weakest TR but I may have to reevaluate. I felt Titus was likely Town upon re-read (I felt they had a lot of “accurate” takes, except for their shade of my own slot, which I don’t know how to interpret since they literally have SR’ed me the last 5 times we’ve played as both alignments, and I know one time before at least).

i don't disagree with leaning town on UNOwen, i think i have about the same read where i feel pretty weak on it but lean town based on not a lot. titus i do think is scummy

And I have Enchant as one of my top SR and you have them as solid Town. That one I’m just not seeing, but obviously there’s a lot of commentary about how they’re in their Town meta. Which I’m sure is possible, but I’m not feeling.

yea that one is def based mostly on meta, ive played with enchant a lot and while i don't think they're as polarized as some people think, i do think that the engagement and like, passion surrounding using mechanics in a way they think is pro-town is a pretty big towntell for them

[fireisredsir]

Are we doing a repeat of dwlee with hesitation to buss or something.

I think we are but with the Johnny wagon. If he's town he's a super easy lim at this point and if there's a scum deepwolf in GL/VPB like some believe, it'd be a good chance for a team with them to get a chance at Prince. So if we're in that world why does the thread seem stalled on a Johnny wagon? Why wouldn't scum vote him by now? He's not even been around to defend himself

why would they need to

scum often don't like being the ones to push LHF slots. more often they just wait to let town do it for them, especially if they aren't under much threat. there's only 4 scum, i would be surprised if more than 2 are angling for being the ones to push a johnny lim in a johnny town world

i think these type of arguments about "oh this wagon has stalled and therefore scum aren't voting it and therefore its more likely to be on scum" are like really surface level and inaccurate the vast majority of the time

[fireisredsir]

Whatever happens today, I want TSQ gone tonight. Whether I'll want to overthrow the monarchy as a whole depends on their pick for Prince of Dragonstone, assuming JF is eliminated.

why? expand please. you think shea is scum?

[fireisredsir]

It's a lot of rapid "insight" to garner some kind of faith/favour but the reads it is producing seem fabricated more by what would assist slotting into the game state without a whole lot of justification beyond surface level.

We should be killing here today, given Dwlee flip and given Andante's defense of them.

well yea, obviously i was going for reads first and justifications later, p sure i said that already

more importantly tho, i think this point about andante is p bad coming from someone who is supposed to be a strong town player. andante has probably both suspected and defended every person in the game at different points bc that's how she plays. why is her defense of dwlee scum motivated? why did she hardshove them d2 and campaign for their lim? what makes andante's townread more scummy than others who townread and defended dwlee?

it just doesn't feel like this is something you've thought about critically at all

[Lady Lambdadelta]

It's a lot of rapid "insight" to garner some kind of faith/favour but the reads it is producing seem fabricated more by what would assist slotting into the game state without a whole lot of justification beyond surface level.

We should be killing here today, given Dwlee flip and given Andante's defense of them.

well yea, obviously i was going for reads first and justifications later, p sure i said that already

more importantly tho, i think this point about andante is p bad coming from someone who is supposed to be a strong town player. andante has probably both suspected and defended every person in the game at different points bc that's how she plays. why is her defense of dwlee scum motivated? why did she hardshove them d2 and campaign for their lim? what makes andante's townread more scummy than others who townread and defended dwlee?

it just doesn't feel like this is something you've thought about critically at all

She hard defended them Day 1, and then shoved them Day 2... not as strongly as you're implying. This is all consistent with a player who wanted to see Dwlee live and then gave up when it seemed like Dwlee was going to die regardless.

Your whataboutisms about other players who defended Dwlee don't matter when your slot did this thing and fits the pattern for a scum player doing precisely what I described.

Your admission that yes, you are faking reads first and finding justifications second does not spare you from that being a scummy way to enter.

And your thinly veiled attempt to discredit me by virture of my strength in this game is a noted scum tactic to try and shift the conversation.

Infact, literally everything you have done from copping to something and then just pretending it's not scummy (it is), to whatabouting Andante's interactions opposed to others and trying to deflect, to trying to discredit me when my point was both Salient and Reasonable without any reason TO discredit me beyond said whataboutisms is scummy as hell.

This is the definition of flailing to avoid suspicion when caught as opposed to actually trying to generate reads.

[VP Baltar]

Where is Roden?

[Firebringer]

everytime LLD comes in here and tries to respond or generate anything. All I think is "well LLD is trying to find reasons to carea bout this game and yet i still don't think she cares about this game"

Can't wait for LLD to really get into the game tho.

[fireisredsir]

She hard defended them Day 1, and then shoved them Day 2... not as strongly as you're implying. This is all consistent with a player who wanted to see Dwlee live and then gave up when it seemed like Dwlee was going to die regardless.

Your whataboutisms about other players who defended Dwlee don't matter when your slot did this thing and fits the pattern for a scum player doing precisely what I described.

Your admission that yes, you are faking reads first and finding justifications second does not spare you from that being a scummy way to enter.

And your thinly veiled attempt to discredit me by virture of my strength in this game is a noted scum tactic to try and shift the conversation.

Infact, literally everything you have done from copping to something and then just pretending it's not scummy (it is), to whatabouting Andante's interactions opposed to others and trying to deflect, to trying to discredit me when my point was both Salient and Reasonable without any reason TO discredit me beyond said whataboutisms is scummy as hell.

This is the definition of flailing to avoid suspicion when caught as opposed to actually trying to generate reads.

im discrediting you bc i think you're scum who is not genuinely trying to sort people. your reasoning is shallow and again, does not reflect someone thinking critically about the situation. actually reading andante's ISO holistically does not paint the picture that you are trying to present, and i don't believe that you could come to your conclusion without willfully ignoring the surrounding context

you are more concerned with "correctness" and being "salient" and "reasonable" from a surface level and not about whether you are actually finding scum

im not shifting the conversation, im starting the conversation by calling your reasoning bad and calling you scummy for it. there was no conversation prior to that because you were not engaging with me or inviting any response. nothing you said required or expected any response or defense. i only responded bc i think the post clearly shows your lack of town approach to this game

your responses when provoked, here and with dann, are replicating a tone of someone who is confident and engaged with the game, ready to shut down anyone who attacks, but it's unsupported and hollow. because you are playing to avoid mistakes and to prevent there from being any room to catch you, and not to find scum

[fireisredsir]

ok so datisi

...rereading the early posts they actually seem fine to me. i think it was mostly just a vibe of him trying hard to establish position but he can do that as town sometimes too

it's just little things like in 406 with the "i was going to murder you if you did x but your response was *fine* i guess" that feel to me more like when scumtisi has a progression planned in his head for a certain interaction and then wants to make sure none of that pre-planned thought process goes to waste so he posts it anyway. that kind of stuff feels performative. it's not damning or anything, but it makes me go hmmm

i also thought in general he was way too quick to townread people in the like... strong and loud players who he is very familiar with group. mostly thinking of baltar, dann, and GL here. 471 felt really weird to me, maybe partly bc i did not at all like dann's push on andante. also weird that dann said datisi was townbinning him when datisi hadn't really ever said that? but then datisi didn't really deny that?

the approach to andres also just... did not feel like towntisi to me. 673 is notable here but there's others. it felt like busy work. like he cared mostly about showing that he was doing something. idk maybe this is partly projection bc i think andres tends to obvtown himself, but the continual harping on the point of not believing andres' read on datisi just felt kinda unnecessary. it doesn't feel like a read that he would need to be spewing all of his thoughts on and getting in back and forth arguments about. maybe he just felt like arguing more and trying to pressure, but i think the approach is something that checks more of the boxes of what his goals would be as scum

i really did not like 888 from GL and i did not like datisi calling it a "very good post" in 1084. it felt like he was picking sides in a positional way rather than coming from a place of naturally assessing the situation

tbh reading live i thought the confidence on dwlee was unjustified, and the push to bury him didn't feel uninformed. there was like, no mercy. i should probably accept that datisi might have actually just had a better read than me and not that it was tmi. will I? perhaps

1760 felt scum motivated to me, BUT i didn't really absorb that it came at the request of the king. which makes it feel a little less performative to me than i originally thought. i still just didn't really love the confidence on baltar and GL. reading through more closely this time, though, i can at least understand where the baltar read is coming from and i think it's supported. less sold on the GL read

i don't really think i believe in the datisi scumread anymore, now that im fully reading through. i do feel slightly worried about that bc i know that scum datisi is good at making like 95% of his words look towny and i usually feel his posts are towny and so the fact that i am reading them more thoroughly and starting to doubt myself on that 5% being correct is probably exactly what would happen if he was scum. but knowing that doesn't really stop me from feeling like he could actually just be town

later there were a couple minor things that bugged me -- i think town datisi would be hard townreading enchant here. i think he has expressed a townread, but when firebringer posted a readslist calling enchant scummy and asked for like, feedback on it, in the council pt, i expected that town datisi would push on that a bit. it gives vibes of picking and choosing which reads he wants to defend and push, which worries me a little

sorry, this post is a mess. probably the biggest thing that made me suspicious was the speed at which the super strong townreads on baltar and GL developed. i think it's reasonable for him to townread them, but the rapidness of it made me worry about it being planned. i don't really think i feel that as much anymore

also i don't really want to debate all of these points, we can revisit them later maybe if i think it becomes a priority, but i don't think datisi is a priority for me rn. id rather focus in furtive/titus/LLD. probably need to do an iso dive on dann at some point to see if my feelings hold up there as well

[fireisredsir]

I kind of almost wonder if the sheer number of people calling adante obvious town does in fact mean she is just town and there are TMIers in the mix

I had this thought with Bellaphant specifically

this (and some surrounding posts) reminded me of turing test where it felt like everyone knew bell was scum and we just weren't really talking about it yet cause it wasn't too important to do so

but then in this case it feels like people just forgot

idk maybe thats me projecting vibes that weren't actually ever there but

i think that was the correct read and furtive is just decent at looking towny