Newbie 2107 | Random Music | Postgame

[Redados]

Just to offer a different perspective, I’ve seen both town and scum do this, and I’ve done it as both scum and town. It’s not alignment-indicative.

Can you provide some more insight on that? Is there a difference that you’ve noticed between scum meta reading and town meta reading? Like who the target is, what kind of things they point out, etc

I can speak to my experiences and motivations. Town!me and scum!me read other players’ games for the same reason - I do it when I feel like I’m not contributing enough to the game. It’s an actionable, finite, and (sometimes but not always) fun action that makes me feel like I *did* something. It’s also something you can show to others - “I did that”.

Ultimately I feel like it does very little in helping to solve the current game. Every game is different. There can be value in seeing what someone’s scum range looks like, but it has vastly diminishing returns.

If you feel like re-reading a game, the most valuable game you can re-read is the current one that you’re playing, in my opinion. Especially after some role cards flip and you get new perspective.

[Redados]

Just to offer a different perspective, I’ve seen both town and scum do this, and I’ve done it as both scum and town. It’s not alignment-indicative.

Can you provide some more insight on that? Is there a difference that you’ve noticed between scum meta reading and town meta reading? Like who the target is, what kind of things they point out, etc

I could also care to guess that BlueBloodedToffee would have a robust opinion on this as well.

[Hellhound1]

Welcome BlueBloodedToffee!

So as it stands (unofficially)
HyruleHitman7 (2) - Hellhound1, chazary
Redados (1) - Brickwalll
Hellhound1 (2) - HyruleHitman7, CCGeek
CCGeek (3) - Redados, Baron Kirkholm Uttgart, biancospino

Not Voting - BBT

I'm happy with either a CCG or Hyrule elim today, as things currently stand, however I'd like to see what BBT has to say before putting anyone at E-1, and I would also like to see what CCG has to say given the current circumstances, and if he gives a response to questions I asked him following his points/vote against me.

I've been sat trying to decide an order for a scum list and if any evidence of pairs has come up, and I can't seem to get it straight in my head so I am spewing out my thoughts below:

CCG & Hyrule at the top. CCG was all for a wagon on Hyrule, but never joined in, despite him saying thats the best way to play.
Hyrule - well, I've set my case out so far and he's not come back so I cant currently read any further into it, despite thinking by not responding he's purposely making the wagon move on from him.
Someone mentioned a possible scum pair between these two? Its plausible.

Redados - I don't know here, something is rubbing me up the wrong way. Lots of leading town. IDK. Seemed to have a change in game play following some genuine pressure, but still feel like something isnt right. Can't put my finger on it so I've decided until I can get a better grasp of their game play they're in my leaning scum pile.

Baron - The reads list was great. But not much since, and hesitant to join in. Really, I would like to see more questioning and contributing. Null so far.
Chazary - I'd like to see more around their reads of everyone, they've kind of jumped in, made votes, a few questions here and there - nullish so far.
Brickwalll - Some really good probing play when they post, leaning town for me.

biancospino - I'm pretty comfortable so far that they're town.

BBT - remains to be seen, I just hope they post soon so we have some time to analyse.

Hellhound1 - incredibly hungover, so apologies if me no word good.

I will happily field any questions on the above, should there be any.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Alright, I've read the first 5 pages and considering this is a Newbie, there was actually quite a lot of informative posting. I'll get into some general thoughts in a second post because I want to address some individual posts first;

Thanks for the reminder about Elmo's V/LA. I also did not see that. However, how was I attempting a wagon? As far as I know I was the first to vote for Elmo.

This post feels overly defensive. Usually, I don't read defensiveness as scummy because I can be a defensive player myself, but this doesn't sit right. Interested to see if this pattern continues as the thread is gearing up to some Chazary pressure where I have stopped reading. If it is a playstyle thing, that should become apparent over the next few pages.

But yes, in agreement with chazary, HH has been coming off as defensive. Not enough for me to convince myself he's voteworthy. On the flip side of things, I see solid value posts from brickwall and bianco engaging in selective questioning. Definitely great towny vibes. And then comes Baron... still mostly lurking and keeping his posts on the fillerish side of things... and wtf was the vote-unvote on Spartan?
And speaking of Spartan, he's been the MOST low-key person this game yet? The weird thing is no one except Baron (the other low-key person who also happens to be widely anti-townread) has really paid any attention to him. And then, Baron just... unvotes??? I do not like this development at all. Just to put some pressure on this slot, VOTE: Spartan

Why was Spartan the best vote out of HH, Baron and Spartan?

Anyway, I do want to elicit some manner of response from Spartan, so
VOTE: Spartan
Even if to me it's mostly null at this point

This post is interesting because it seemed like you were heading towards voting HH (77), but then both Red and Brick stated that they thought HH was town and your read seems to have disappeared? Instead, you have chosen to vote for a 'null player' who is already garnering a decent level of suspicion from other player. This feels opportunistic.

UNVOTE:

Hope you get well soon

You get another chance to go back to HH here, given you don't seem to have anything better, and still nothing. I don't think you want to go against thread opinion of two active posters and draw attention to yourself. I would love some elaboration on your HH read.

I definitely have been talking game theory as opposed to hunting, but that’s because I think it’s more helpful for the town than making accusations when you’re not sure about them.

I will however, say some of my feelings of various players so far.

I don’t agree with a few of the criticisms made of HH, and I think they have made some thoughtful contributions that are helpful to the town, but I am very much keeping a watch on them.

Brickwall and Bianco have both made some interesting points, and as of now, they are the two that I’m considering as town.

Elmo, Spartan and Chazary are too hard to tell now. If I were to share my personal first instincts, Elmo I think could be the more likely to be scum of the three.

CCGeek and Redados, although having been active in discussion have very much been offensive rather than defensive. They haven’t really said anything to make me believe that they are scum, but I want to see how they progress.

Essentially everything I have is a premature premonition, and nothing can really be attained from it, but it always helps the town even just to know the faintest thoughts of others, so thought I’d share.

I don't like this. I feel like Baron is providing content as he starts coming under some pressure for theory talk - I think this could come from either alignment to be clear. But the last line sways it into the scummy side for me, it's a 'look how townie I am by giving you guys my reads' kind of line.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

This is where I am currently at:

I like Brick and HH for town.
Spartan is firmly null (I see he is being/has been replaced) CCGeek is also null but that's because of a conflict in their posting that I haven't resolved yet. Redados is also null, his play this game reminds me of my own scum play but I obviously can't apply my own playstyle/thoughts to somebody else.
I like Chazary, Bianco and Baron for scum.

Hoping the next few pages will provide me with some more clarity with my reads but happy with this so far.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Hellhound, are you around?

[Hellhound1]

Hellhound, are you around?

Right now? Yes

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Talk to me about your Bianco town read?

[biancospino]

Welcome @BlueBloodToffee!

Anyway, I do want to elicit some manner of response from Spartan, so
VOTE: Spartan
Even if to me it's mostly null at this point

This post is interesting because it seemed like you were heading towards voting HH (77), but then both Red and Brick stated that they thought HH was town and your read seems to have disappeared? Instead, you have chosen to vote for a 'null player' who is already garnering a decent level of suspicion from other player. This feels opportunistic.

My read never disappeared, and in fact I referenced it some in posts further down the line. And that vote feels opportunistic 'cause it kinda is, I was genuinely curious about what Spartan would have to say and thought the deadline was so far away that it was more useful to use my vote to put pressure rather than actually indicating who I would want to lim. Next I voted for Elmo, for much of the same reason, and in fact the first vote actually intended for a lim was for Hyrule. I've since moved it to CCG, but I'm still very much not convinced that Hyrule is town

[Hellhound1]

Talk to me about your Bianco town read?

If you're on page 5 then it will be lacking some context, however ISO them and you'll see genuine attempts at scum hunting, good questioning of motives and actions, and a willingness to move their vote to increase pressure while also looking to move play forward. Nothing stands out as scum to me.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Alright, but my main point still stands. You had no further reads at that time and you didn't vote for HH after he started gaining town reads in thread.

I still don't particularly understand why you chose to vote a null player over somebody who you thought could be scum either. Like, if you thought HH was scum then vote him and start applying pressure there? Instead of a random null slot that is already gaining attention. You know?

PEdit - OK, I'll see what happens as I catch up.

[Brickwalll]

I still don't particularly understand why you chose to vote a null player over somebody who you thought could be scum either. Like, if you thought HH was scum then vote him and start applying pressure there? Instead of a random null slot that is already gaining attention. You know?

Hahaha this made me laugh. I cannot wait until you get to post 287.

[Redados]

I still don't particularly understand why you chose to vote a null player over somebody who you thought could be scum either. Like, if you thought HH was scum then vote him and start applying pressure there? Instead of a random null slot that is already gaining attention. You know?

Hahaha this made me laugh. I cannot wait until you get to post 287.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

HH’s posts are extremely fluffed up which I suppose could just be a passionate townie but still raises a brow. I shouldn’t have said your posts aren’t valuable. All posts are valuable. And I agree that discussing town vs scum behavior is more beneficial than silence, but these conversations seem to circle back to the same conclusion; scum imitates town, therefore any behavior that is inherently town-like (talkativeness, scum-hunting) becomes scum-like. Now that we’ve established that, I’d like to know what you’ve noticed about other people’s behavior.

Red was reading town for me in the beginning, and I haven’t seen anything to change that, but I find it odd how obsessed with wagons they seem to be. They jumped on to Elmo after my vote, same with Spartan after CCGeek’s vote, and is now trying to start a wagon on me. I understand that it’s mainly been to incite a reaction from inactive players, including myself to a degree, but still something to be aware of.

Bianco, Brick, and CCGeek all read null town to me. Bianco’s reads list was possibly premature but I also appreciate the attempt at starting a discussion.

Elmo seems to still be recovering and Spartan, hope you do the same. But will obviously have to wait for their replacement to make any calls.

This is a lot of words to actually say very little. The read on HH is wishy-washy, the read on Red confirms my initial suspicion that you do just have a defensive playstyle and so it's not particularly alignment indicative and the rest is meh.

Why chazary though? I'd imagine the idea was to gather a reaction, but now that one was given I'm not so sure keeping the pressure on would really do any good. Are you actually reading him anti-town?

Did you town read Chazary at this point? I see nothing in your ISO that would suggest so.

Snip

biancospino

So far reads to me as town leaning. Good starting attempts at trying to scum hunt IMO.

So far, Hyrule is at the top of my list.

I would be interested in what Hyrule has to say regarding why they're so keen to point they're town all the time, and why they don't want to put pressure on people? Why not be part of the spartan wagon?

VOTE: Hyrule

From what I can see Hellhound, your reads have not shifted much from your initial entry point. Would this be fair to say? I'm not sure where this Bianco town read has come from on entry either, can you elaborate on it?

Chazary seems town, and I can't blame him for being suspicious of my posts.

I do not appreciate hellhound's vote on me, but if it was just to light a fire under my ass, then so be it. He reads as slightly scummy to me, or just aggressive town. Someone actively trying to scumhunt, or possibly immediately find a target upon which to channel all suspicion. It is very interesting, as was previously pointed out, that he represents an outsider's look in, so for this reason I'm largely inconclusive on his standing. Idk, maybe he's just putting up a good scumhunt, but he's at the top of my list. NOT because he voted me, though.

Brickwall reads as town to me, he's been logical and methodical from his posts, and not rushing to conclusions.

Redados reads town to me as well, for similar reasons as Brickwall, and he also tried to get the convo started, so that definitely puts him as strongly town imo.

Biancospino reads as town to me, his contributions have definitely been beneficial to town so far.

CCGeek seems very town to me as well, as he's done several reads to help town, and his logic behind bandwagons checks out to me.

This reads-list is pretty horrific. HH, can you talk about your Chazary read? You say he seems town but with no reason. Same for your Hellhound read, can you talk about why he is top of your list because your actual read says 'could be town, could be scum'.

CCGeek being 'very town' caught my eye, talk about this read too, please.

Overall, a lot of town reads and no scum reads. Here is my problem, scum already know who town are and so it's very easy for scum to state (and explain) town reads. It's much more difficult for scum to state and explain scum reads because they know it's completely false and I'm not seeing your scum reads.

It's suspicious that I DIDN'T want to vote off someone I didn't have ample evidence to doubt the legitimacy of? The pressure was already applied to him, so there wouldn't have been any reason to vote, and if I had, then I would have been accused of using a bandwagon, which is far more scummy than taking my time to logically deduce through evidence who is acting scummy, which Spartan had provided practically none.

You

thought

it would look scummier to join a bandwagon on Spartan as opposed to not voting without reason to do so and that's what you did. You justified Hellhound's suspicions in your own post. You took the action that you thought would

appear

more townie.

[Hellhound1]

From what I can see Hellhound, your reads have not shifted much from your initial entry point. Would this be fair to say?

My thoughts on Hyrule have not changed, the CCG vote on me made me re-read his posts and question those, and until he can answer those questions and the follow ups satisfactorily, he'll be on my scum list. Red's behaviour has been a slow build, at first I thought he was trying to help, now I think he's up to something else, and is now on the possible scum list.

Everyone else is the same or similar.

I'm not sure where this Bianco town read has come from on entry either, can you elaborate on it?

If we're talking specifically on my entry, then the following quotes are questioning motives and positive town play IMO and the concern in the first quote were also in line with my thoughts at the time too.

What is of some concern is that he does appear to incite discussion without participating in it any. Now, he clearly is not willing to straight up lurk, and is instead essentially empty posting presumably to seem active (a latere, that's true of Baron too). His vote is clearly comedic, but I'm not convinced that he didn't just take the occasion to join a wagon with plausible deniability.

I'm not sure that follows. If a behaviour is clearly advantageous to town, then town should engage in it even if it is frequently faked by scum. In fact I'd argue that it being faked should benefit the town, which in the specific case is likely since a talkative scum may possibly incur in some manner of lapsus.

Just to be clear, are you suggesting here that town may wish not to force patterns to emerge? Because, at least as I see, town do actually want to make their behavior as transparent as possible in the vast majority of cases, after all there's no risk whatsoever of informing the mafia on the identity of the townsfolk since they already know.

As much as all this theory talk was all fluff, biancospino (as a newbie) is trying to engage and question.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Did HH not do a lot of similar things then? Because, as you said, that is a lot of theory fluff from Bianco.

[CCGeek]

oh yo Elmo slot comes alive

But yes, I figured some people might start putting pressure on me after the incomplete hh case, unfort I really have a shortage of time rn... I might even ask for a sub d2 onwards, but I'd like to at least complete my case against hh before that. Hopefully will catch up and reply to everything tomorrow as well. @People who are waiting for me to respond, yall have to wait for some 16ish hours... sorry to town in advance.

[Alianna]

rickroll

Day 1 Count IX

CCGeek (3) - Redados, Baron Kirkholm Uttgart, biancospino
Hellhound1 (2) - HyruleHitman7, CCGeek
HyruleHitman7 (2) - Hellhound1, chazary
Redados (1) - Brickwalll

Not Voting

- BlueBloodedToffee

Notes

• The combined mod ISO is here.
  
• With 9 alive, it takes 5 to form a majority.
  
• RH is V/LA until December 19th.
  
• HyruleHitman7 is being prodded.
  
• Reminder that discussing replacement is not allowed.

The

Day

concludes in (expired on 2022-12-21 14:10:00).

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: CCGeek

E-1

[Hellhound1]

VOTE: CCGeek

E-1

NOBODY SHOULD HAMMER WITHOUT STATING THEIR INTENTION TO DO SO FIRST

In case they are a PR. Give them an opportunity to claim.

That said, I would be happy to hammer in 24 hours should nothing change.

Did HH not do a lot of similar things then? Because, as you said, that is a lot of theory fluff from Bianco.

My read on bianco is based on their reactions to the fluff and the questions they asked. Nothing else they've done is scummy and, having moved on for some time from the fluff, I consider their posts to be town.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I don't understand how you're town reading Bianco's fluff and scum reading HH's fluff.

Can you just spoon feed me like I'm 5 with how you differentiated between the two?

[Brickwalll]

I’m down to hammer. Just incase anyone wasn’t already clear on that. We’ve got time so I’ll wait but at least want a claim from CC.

[Baron Kirkholm Uttgart]

Essentially everything I have is a premature premonition, and nothing can really be attained from it, but it always helps the town even just to know the faintest thoughts of others, so thought I’d share.

I don't like this. I feel like Baron is providing content as he starts coming under some pressure for theory talk - I think this could come from either alignment to be clear. But the last line sways it into the scummy side for me, it's a 'look how townie I am by giving you guys my reads' kind of line.

Out of context, I can see how that part of my post looks just like I’m trying to say “My reads don’t make sense, but it’s fine because I read anyway”. But, I was actually trying to say “I am doing these reads because I’ve done enough theory and we’re nearly out of RVS, but I’m still not really sure about them, because we’re still early in the game”. I did reads a few more times after that, and each time I tried to provide more evidence and analysis.

[Hellhound1]

I don't understand how you're town reading Bianco's fluff and scum reading HH's fluff.

Can you just spoon feed me like I'm 5 with how you differentiated between the two?

HyruleHitman7

Some interesting comments with:

Time to wait for y'all to slip up or get voted. Fun.

and

Therefore, although a more active role in the discussion is riskier, I've come to the decision that it will be far more efficient for me and my fellow townsmen. I have refrained from referring to myself as town thus far, as instantly labelling myself as such when there is little reason to suspect otherwise is incredibly suspicious, but I did find such a label on myself necessary in order to explain my line of thinking.

amongst others. These come across as "look at me I am town" comments which were not really called for. Also very heavy on the theory stuff rather than anything else.

That was my opening comment on Hyrule, who's posts were coming across "appear towny" not "act towny".

Compare that to Bianco's posts that I mentioned which I'll quote below in the spoiler for easier reading, and you can see that Bianco is asking questions and saying towny things. Their posts are not pure fluff, although slightly fluffy I will admit.

Spoiler:

What is of some concern is that he does appear to incite discussion without participating in it any.

Now, he clearly is not willing to straight up lurk, and is instead essentially empty posting presumably to seem active (a latere, that's true of Baron too). His vote is clearly comedic,

but I'm not convinced that he didn't just take the occasion to join a wagon with plausible deniability.

I'm not sure that follows.

If a behaviour is clearly advantageous to town, then town should engage in it even if it is frequently faked by scum.

In fact I'd argue that it being faked should benefit the town, which in the specific case is likely since a talkative scum may possibly incur in some manner of lapsus.

Just to be clear, are you suggesting here that town may wish not to force patterns to emerge?

Because, at least as I see, town do actually want to make their behavior as transparent as possible in the vast majority of cases, after all there's no risk whatsoever of informing the mafia on the identity of the townsfolk since they already know.

I have bolded some stuff for emphasis of phrases I like and think are leaning town.

Now, if we move on to where we currently stand, and you ISO bianco up to current date posts, I personally am comfortable with the majority of their comments, votes and questions as an overall. I have reread your comments above about Bianco but I would say cautious noob town given the bigger picture. I am interested in their response to your question.

Are you scum reading Bianco?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I don't see the first post from HH as AI and the second post is out of context from a larger post is it not?

I think HH is cautious about how they're perceived but I'm not sure if that's scummy or not yet. I think scum would be less likely than town to post 45 because it didn't really have a conclusion but there were some good points. I also think 94 comes across as a townie being reflective to try and play better (I don't think scum would care about this). 120 felt genuine as well, it could be faked of course, but it feels like a genuine misunderstanding of how scum would need to play the game and I would expect that he would have thought about this if he were scum. Having said that, some of his later posting was bad and I am by no means confident he is town.

As for Bianco, I also thought they could potentially be town from the early game, I too liked 37. However, 72, 102 and 112 have since made me reevaluate. I really didn't (don't) understand the hesitance to vote HH and I think it was because two of the more active posters (Red and Brick) had stated town reads on HH to some extent and this made Bianco reluctant to rock the boat. I think 133 was clutching at straws too, but I think if anything this is more likely to be town looking for scum pairs (unless Bianco is scum and then I would say the chances of one of HH/Baron being scum go up significantly). The soft-defence of Chazary in 134 felt off as well, I don't understand where this came from as there was no suggestion that he was town reading Chazary at that point of the game. Finally, I found both of his votes on Spartan/Elmo to be opportunistic, especially given he had some concerns regarding HH at the time.