Newbie 2107 | Random Music | Postgame

[Baron Kirkholm Uttgart]

I’m back and starting to read through the game for the other scum, I’m looking at BBT, Redados and Biancos first

[Brickwalll]

You're right.

Part of the reason I thought you could be scum was because it felt like you were intentionally playing scummy to fall under the 'too scummy to be scum' bracket.

But I feel like I have been so very obviously town that it really shouldn't even be a question.

How do you read me right now Mr Toffee?

This is the second time you’ve asked someone this question. Why do you need to know how you are being read? For me it feels wholly irrelevant to ask this question from a town perspective.

[Brickwalll]

I’m back and starting to read through the game for the other scum, I’m looking at BBT, Redados and Biancos first

Why Bianco? They were on the CC wagon, pretty much remain unwavered at the end when pressure was being applied to switch the vote to Chazary.

[Brickwalll]

Too early to form solid reads but I'll take a shot anyway:
Hyrule: Every post is some form of filler, even after Redados tries to induce discussion. Neutral, slightly scummy.
Redados: Tries to make thread control early d1 and ends up with 2 votes on him. Kind of a wonk display, but also makes a scumhunting play, so d1 reads: Town
biancospino: Puts in an RVS vote and makes a general observation. Not necessarily scummy, but not really towny either.
Baron: Wants (?) to discuss but doesn't post. Kind of wack, slightly scummy, again.
Brickwalll: I sure hope he doesn't start lurking often after his highly energetic introductory post. Else, later on in the game, we'd literally be...

talking to a brick wall.

For me this reads list speaks volumes, not so much for what is written on it but more from the perspective of who’s not included in it.

I firmly believe those stated on this list are all town. That leaves Hellhound, BBT and Chazary. I have quite a strong town read on Hellhound currently. Thus narrowing it down to BBT and Chazary. Both who are somewhat scum read in my opinion.

I did have BBT down as town leaning in D1. However, reading both CCG’s posts and BBTs isolation swayed that. His vote in CCG seemed convenient at the time to distance himself and really no explanation was provided for that vote.

Right now I would be comfortable with either a BBT or Chazary elimination, although I think I would prefer to start with Chazary and then follow it up with BBT. Thoughts?

[Baron Kirkholm Uttgart]

CCGeek seems very town to me as well, as he's done several reads to help town, and his logic behind bandwagons checks out to me.

This reads-list is pretty horrific. HH, can you talk about your Chazary read? You say he seems town but with no reason. Same for your Hellhound read, can you talk about why he is top of your list because your actual read says 'could be town, could be scum'.

CCGeek being 'very town' caught my eye, talk about this read too, please.

Overall, a lot of town reads and no scum reads. Here is my problem, scum already know who town are and so it's very easy for scum to state (and explain) town reads. It's much more difficult for scum to state and explain scum reads because they know it's completely false and I'm not seeing your scum reads.

This is BBT’s very first mention of CCG, in post 388. The Hyrule/cactus slot we now know was town anyway.

VOTE: CCGeek

E-1

This is his very next contribution. It seems he’s trying to join in an effort to be seen as town, knowing it’s too late for CCG anyway. Remember, his only comment on CCG before was questioning them being very town, which I can see scum doing to their pair with very little repercussions. BBT didn’t even call CCG scum. He just questioned ‘very town’, which is sort of a gimme.

Can anyone talk to me about Chazary and Hellhound?

I probably want to vote out one of these today...

Maybe Red too actually.

Here BBT realises that CCG has a chance of not being voted out. They probe the group for

three

possible candidates…

VOTE: Chazary

Talk to me about this. Does creating a separate wagon at this point do anything? Let alone benefit town.

It's only a separate wagon until it gains more votes and then becomes leading wagon. We have time to wagon any given player in the game if the case/explanation is good enough. It takes maybe 6 hours to elim someone?

Chazary's posting over the first 12 pages has been pretty horrific. I think we find scum here if we elim him.

Or CCG can move to Chazary and make it E-1.

Chazary is right there.

And then tries to make the group pivot to the candidate that the group has deemed makes sense.

This is one story that I saw reading BBTs ISO, but I did actually think they made some quite relevant and critical points in their comments of reading the thread before their entry, including things that our group didn’t notice the first time around.

[Baron Kirkholm Uttgart]

I’m back and starting to read through the game for the other scum, I’m looking at BBT, Redados and Biancos first

Why Bianco? They were on the CC wagon, pretty much remain unwavered at the end when pressure was being applied to switch the vote to Chazary.

I haven’t really looked at their ISO yet, could be something I missed. They are in basically in my towny bucket now though.

[Brickwalll]

I think I solved the game but I need to think about it.

I would still be keen to hear it.

[Redados]

You're right.

Part of the reason I thought you could be scum was because it felt like you were intentionally playing scummy to fall under the 'too scummy to be scum' bracket.

But I feel like I have been so very obviously town that it really shouldn't even be a question.

How do you read me right now Mr Toffee?

This is the second time you’ve asked someone this question. Why do you need to know how you are being read? For me it feels wholly irrelevant to ask this question from a town perspective.

I’m vain and curious

[Redados]

You're right.

Part of the reason I thought you could be scum was because it felt like you were intentionally playing scummy to fall under the 'too scummy to be scum' bracket.

But I feel like I have been so very obviously town that it really shouldn't even be a question.

How do you read me right now Mr Toffee?

This is the second time you’ve asked someone this question. Why do you need to know how you are being read? For me it feels wholly irrelevant to ask this question from a town perspective.

I’m vain and curious

Also, the other time I asked this question I *also* asked Toffee, and I don’t remember him answering.

If I ask him to tell me a read, then later we can use how that read developed as a piece of data.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Yeah I was not doing anything intentionally. I was really struggling with my day one reads, but I hoped it would be scarier to scum if I was being more mysterious as opposed to that I really didn’t know what I was doing.

Hmm, OK. You were doing it an awful lot, a lot of your D1 posts were naked votes which I tend to think is more likely to come from town but you definitely come into the 'too scummy to be scum' bracket.

How do you read me right now Mr Toffee?

As has been pointed out, this is the 2nd time you have asked me this. Why so curious?

I’m back and starting to read through the game for the other scum, I’m looking at BBT, Redados and Biancos first

I realise this doesn't help my case but it seems fairly unlikely that Bianco is scum because;

They were on the CC wagon, pretty much remain unwavered at the end when pressure was being applied to switch the vote to Chazary.

snip reads list

For me this reads list speaks volumes, not so much for what is written on it but more from the perspective of who’s not included in it.

I firmly believe those stated on this list are all town. That leaves Hellhound, BBT and Chazary. I have quite a strong town read on Hellhound currently. Thus narrowing it down to BBT and Chazary. Both who are somewhat scum read in my opinion.

I did have BBT down as town leaning in D1. However, reading both CCG’s posts and BBTs isolation swayed that. His vote in CCG seemed convenient at the time to distance himself and really no explanation was provided for that vote.

Right now I would be comfortable with either a BBT or Chazary elimination, although I think I would prefer to start with Chazary and then follow it up with BBT. Thoughts?

You understand that these reads were presented on page 2, right? Like, all of the people who were not included simply hadn't posted. It's a pretty big stretch to say that scum must be in the people who a) were not included in a page 2 reads list and b) hadn't posted in the game.

Talk to me about why I'm scum.

VOTE: CCGeek

E-1

This is his very next contribution. It seems he’s trying to join in an effort to be seen as town, knowing it’s too late for CCG anyway. Remember, his only comment on CCG before was questioning them being very town, which I can see scum doing to their pair with very little repercussions. BBT didn’t even call CCG scum. He just questioned ‘very town’, which is sort of a gimme.

Alright, let's look at this. So, I am trying to join the CCG wagon as an effort to look town - do you think a naked vote garners that reaction? Do you think my vote might get more credence if I, you know, stated reasons for my vote and made it look like I was fully invested into it? Which type of vote do you think

appears

more townie? I stand by what I said yesterday in that it wasn't too late to form a new wagon, my biggest problem right now is that it looks like I was trying to drive a counter-wagon to a wagon that ended up on scum and that's a completely fair accusation.

But, if what you say is true that CCG was inevitable, does it not make more sense for me to present a solid, thought-out vote with reasons (remember I would know that CCG was scum and it would be extremely easy for me to present a solid case on him) as opposed to just throwing down some naked vote in the hopes that it gets me some town cred? I actually think my vote looks a hell of a lot worse if CCG flipped town.

As for CCG himself, his posting around the time he was under pressure came across as extremely relaxed and it did make me think that he was town and we needed to look elsewhere. He completely fooled me with his late D1 posting because the truth is that I didn't really have much of a read on CCG through the first 12 pages or so. That was the whole point of my vote.

Can anyone talk to me about Chazary and Hellhound?

I probably want to vote out one of these today...

Maybe Red too actually.

Here BBT realises that CCG has a chance of not being voted out. They probe the group for

three

possible candidates…

VOTE: Chazary

Talk to me about this. Does creating a separate wagon at this point do anything? Let alone benefit town.

It's only a separate wagon until it gains more votes and then becomes leading wagon. We have time to wagon any given player in the game if the case/explanation is good enough. It takes maybe 6 hours to elim someone?

Chazary's posting over the first 12 pages has been pretty horrific. I think we find scum here if we elim him.

Or CCG can move to Chazary and make it E-1.

Chazary is right there.

And then tries to make the group pivot to the candidate that the group has deemed makes sense.

This is quite the stretch. I presented a case on Chazary and at the time of that post Chazary already had 3 votes - he was the most viable candidate of the 3 because of votes. There was no 'pivoting' needed because a solid wagon had already formed.

I came into D2 still wanting to elim Chazary but I don't actually think that makes sense now. Rereading CCG at end of D1, he looked like he was lining up to join the Chazary wagon after rereading his ISO but he never actually does. I did just notice something that I will put into a separate post though.

Also, the other time I asked this question I *also* asked Toffee, and I don’t remember him answering.
If I ask him to tell me a read, then later we can use how that read developed as a piece of data.

You're far too concerned with how I read you.

UNVOTE:

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Alright, a couple of things I want to look at.

VOTE: CCGeek

VOTE: CCGeek

hate between fellow Pokemon fans is unjustified D:

it’s justified

These early interactions could very easily be s/s. A way to ease both of them into the game by communicating with each other and not having to interact with town straight away.

Why are we saying to get things started? I already got things started

At this point, Red's push looks too forced. I think this is a plan from the get-go, Red to hard push CCG and then back off later in the Day when the opportunity arises. Red could be faking conviction in the read to get the game out of RVS, that's absolutely a possibility, but I'm leaning towards a s/s plan here with Red looking to gain maximum credit should a CCG wagon ever go through. The reason I don't think this is fake conviction to get the thread out of RVS is because Red stays committed to this read for way longer than needed without any real evidence to ever back it up. It's distancing.

Second time ever playing a forum mafia game so: what is v/la? :think:

The answer is in here: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... reviations

got it, ty for help!

Why are we saying to get things started? I already got things started

tbh true, BUT the discussion hasn't really warmed up. THEREFORE, to (hopefully) get the ball rolling better, VOTE: chazary

I mean, things have definitely gotten started and warmed up. There are plenty of things to talk about. For example:
1) I haven’t unvoted you
2) I have two votes on me
3) many people have posted but haven’t really posted yet.
4) everything you say is unrelated to each other and you keep pulling the conversation in different directions

How do those things make you feel?

Same again, look at the amount of interactions between the two and this is just the first page. CCG's posting in response to Red is, again, extremely relaxed and he doesn't once question Red's motivation behind this hard push on a page one read. Red is gunning for CCG and CCG doesn't have a care in the world, why?

Red's response to CCG again gives him a route into the game and plenty to talk about without interacting with town.

Could Hyrule and CCG be a scum pair

I’m scumreading CCG more than Hyrule.

I think you should put CCG at E-1 and then we see if anyone declare hammer.

I would also love to hear CCG’s thoughts on the wagon

.

These posts gave me some pause because it looks like some alternatives to CCG may be possible but Red, again, is hard pushing CCG. The biggest problem is that this read has come from nowhere on Page 1 and has remained throughout the entirety of D1 with nothing to back it up.

I also think the bolded is Red leaving space to leave the CCG wagon after he has 'analysed' it. There is a CCG post that ties in nicely with this too;

unfort I really have a shortage of time rn... I might even ask for a sub d2 onwards

I think this is significant. I think CCG will have posted in scum thread, way before public thread, that he was unsure if he had time for the game. If that is the case, it would be a green light for Red to push him as hard as possible and gain the maximum amount of credit from the flip.

Redados has over a hundred posts but none of it pertains to his vote on CCG. It's all fluff
This makes it feel like he's voting CCG for the sake of wagoning him, not because he has a genuine scrumread.
VOTE: Redados

Cactus, the N1 kill, was suspicious of Red... something to keep in mind.

Redados has over a hundred posts but none of it pertains to his vote on CCG. It's all fluff
This makes it feel like he's voting CCG for the sake of wagoning him, not because he has a genuine scrumread.
VOTE: Redados

Yeah that’s fair. I just want to eliminate someone, and I’m good with eliminating CCG.

Red almost negates his entire read here. He is basically saying that he has no reasons for limming CCG, he wants to elim anyone. Given the severity of his push/read on CCG this post makes very little sense with the rest of his D1 play around the CCG slot.

In terms of self-preservation, CCGeek has every motivation to make a push on me, right? Because that’s his best chance to not get voted out? And he’s not. That reads as town to me.

This would also support us being a scumpair, but I know my alignment

, so I can rule that out.

UNVOTE:

There is the opportunity to jump off. At a pivotal point of the game, too. CCG doesn't push on Red, even as a self-pres, because he is scum with him. Red uses this as an opportunity to town read CCG and jump ship after scum reading him for 20 pages or whatever it was.

The bolded fits in very nicely with my 'too scummy to be scum' theory that I had about Red, too.

No. I lightly skimmed chazary's ISO yesterday and noticed some of his posts today.
I don't agree with Chazary's reasoning in post #501. However, they had a strong opening post(#66) and consistently relevant input. My vote would remain on Redados.

Cactus town read Chazary, it makes 0 sense for Chazary to kill Cactus.

It makes more than enough sense for Red to kill Cactus though. Red's questioning regarding my read on him also makes me think he is scum who is simply looking to kill off the people who scum read him and because I hadn't really stated a read on him he was unsure of how to approach me.

I re-read the game during the night and I was null on cactus. Confused on why he was the night kill, maybe the mafia was PR hunting? I thought that a lot of the town saw Hyrule/Cactus and CCGeek as a possible scumpair. That’s confusing to me.

This is classic scum as well - I have no idea why that kill was done. Completely baffling. /sarcasm

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: Red

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Hellhound and Bianco are town for their CCG pushes and no intent to move when another possibility opened up. These are pretty much locked for me.
Brickwall's posting has looked townie for pretty much the entire game. Not quite as lock-town as the above two, but pretty strong.
I was unsure on Baron, but I think his push on me Today looks like a genuine attempt from a townie looking at possible partners for CCG.
That leaves Chazary and Red. As stated, I believe the Cactus kill makes 0 sense from Chazary and I feel like I can rule him out on that alone.

Game solved.

[biancospino]

Speaking of Red, I just realized that #73 is a bit weird:

I skimmed over the posts so far and no comments on the Elmo BW, except the fact that he will be on T/LA till tomorrow (post #5).
[...]

Thanks for pointing out that Elmo is V/LA, I didn’t notice that. UNVOTE:

Specifically I find a wee hard to believe that Red didn't care to check why CCG had asked the meaning of V/LA in the first place before answering to that in #15:

Second time ever playing a forum mafia game so: what is v/la? :think:

The answer is in here: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... reviations

It’s a good resource regardless

[biancospino]

Game solved.

That's the second time you claim so, and with non-overlapping scumpairs. That's some real appeal to guts right there (tough this time around the reasoning for that claim was solidly backed, so I don't know what to make of it)

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Care to use your vote?

[biancospino]

Sure. VOTE: Red

[biancospino]

That's E-2, right?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Yeah, 2 more needed.

[Redados]

Speaking of Red, I just realized that #73 is a bit weird:

I skimmed over the posts so far and no comments on the Elmo BW, except the fact that he will be on T/LA till tomorrow (post #5).
[...]

Thanks for pointing out that Elmo is V/LA, I didn’t notice that. UNVOTE:

Specifically I find a wee hard to believe that Red didn't care to check why CCG had asked the meaning of V/LA in the first place before answering to that in #15:

Second time ever playing a forum mafia game so: what is v/la? :think:

The answer is in here: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... reviations

It’s a good resource regardless

RH went back and edited that post to say that Elmo was V/LA. I hadn’t even thought to check for that, as I had already read that post.

I like Brickwall’s theory that CCGeek only knew to go back and check that because Elmo/Toffee was the scum partner.

[Redados]

Hellhound and Bianco are town for their CCG pushes and no intent to move when another possibility opened up. These are pretty much locked for me.
Brickwall's posting has looked townie for pretty much the entire game. Not quite as lock-town as the above two, but pretty strong.
I was unsure on Baron, but I think his push on me Today looks like a genuine attempt from a townie looking at possible partners for CCG.
That leaves Chazary and Red. As stated, I believe the Cactus kill makes 0 sense from Chazary and I feel like I can rule him out on that alone.

Game solved.

I agree with your POE up until the Chazary part, which I’ll need to think about some more. But of course I know my role card and I would include you in the process as well.

[Redados]

Alright, a couple of things I want to look at.

VOTE: CCGeek

VOTE: CCGeek

hate between fellow Pokemon fans is unjustified D:

it’s justified

These early interactions could very easily be s/s. A way to ease both of them into the game by communicating with each other and not having to interact with town straight away.

Why are we saying to get things started? I already got things started

At this point, Red's push looks too forced. I think this is a plan from the get-go, Red to hard push CCG and then back off later in the Day when the opportunity arises. Red could be faking conviction in the read to get the game out of RVS, that's absolutely a possibility, but I'm leaning towards a s/s plan here with Red looking to gain maximum credit should a CCG wagon ever go through. The reason I don't think this is fake conviction to get the thread out of RVS is because Red stays committed to this read for way longer than needed without any real evidence to ever back it up. It's distancing.

Second time ever playing a forum mafia game so: what is v/la? :think:

The answer is in here: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... reviations

got it, ty for help!

Why are we saying to get things started? I already got things started

tbh true, BUT the discussion hasn't really warmed up. THEREFORE, to (hopefully) get the ball rolling better, VOTE: chazary

I mean, things have definitely gotten started and warmed up. There are plenty of things to talk about. For example:
1) I haven’t unvoted you
2) I have two votes on me
3) many people have posted but haven’t really posted yet.
4) everything you say is unrelated to each other and you keep pulling the conversation in different directions

How do those things make you feel?

Same again, look at the amount of interactions between the two and this is just the first page. CCG's posting in response to Red is, again, extremely relaxed and he doesn't once question Red's motivation behind this hard push on a page one read. Red is gunning for CCG and CCG doesn't have a care in the world, why?

Red's response to CCG again gives him a route into the game and plenty to talk about without interacting with town.

Could Hyrule and CCG be a scum pair

I’m scumreading CCG more than Hyrule.

I think you should put CCG at E-1 and then we see if anyone declare hammer.

I would also love to hear CCG’s thoughts on the wagon

.

These posts gave me some pause because it looks like some alternatives to CCG may be possible but Red, again, is hard pushing CCG. The biggest problem is that this read has come from nowhere on Page 1 and has remained throughout the entirety of D1 with nothing to back it up.

I also think the bolded is Red leaving space to leave the CCG wagon after he has 'analysed' it. There is a CCG post that ties in nicely with this too;

unfort I really have a shortage of time rn... I might even ask for a sub d2 onwards

I think this is significant. I think CCG will have posted in scum thread, way before public thread, that he was unsure if he had time for the game. If that is the case, it would be a green light for Red to push him as hard as possible and gain the maximum amount of credit from the flip.

Redados has over a hundred posts but none of it pertains to his vote on CCG. It's all fluff
This makes it feel like he's voting CCG for the sake of wagoning him, not because he has a genuine scrumread.
VOTE: Redados

Cactus, the N1 kill, was suspicious of Red... something to keep in mind.

Redados has over a hundred posts but none of it pertains to his vote on CCG. It's all fluff
This makes it feel like he's voting CCG for the sake of wagoning him, not because he has a genuine scrumread.
VOTE: Redados

Yeah that’s fair. I just want to eliminate someone, and I’m good with eliminating CCG.

Red almost negates his entire read here. He is basically saying that he has no reasons for limming CCG, he wants to elim anyone. Given the severity of his push/read on CCG this post makes very little sense with the rest of his D1 play around the CCG slot.

In terms of self-preservation, CCGeek has every motivation to make a push on me, right? Because that’s his best chance to not get voted out? And he’s not. That reads as town to me.

This would also support us being a scumpair, but I know my alignment

, so I can rule that out.

UNVOTE:

There is the opportunity to jump off. At a pivotal point of the game, too. CCG doesn't push on Red, even as a self-pres, because he is scum with him. Red uses this as an opportunity to town read CCG and jump ship after scum reading him for 20 pages or whatever it was.

The bolded fits in very nicely with my 'too scummy to be scum' theory that I had about Red, too.

No. I lightly skimmed chazary's ISO yesterday and noticed some of his posts today.
I don't agree with Chazary's reasoning in post #501. However, they had a strong opening post(#66) and consistently relevant input. My vote would remain on Redados.

Cactus town read Chazary, it makes 0 sense for Chazary to kill Cactus.

It makes more than enough sense for Red to kill Cactus though. Red's questioning regarding my read on him also makes me think he is scum who is simply looking to kill off the people who scum read him and because I hadn't really stated a read on him he was unsure of how to approach me.

I re-read the game during the night and I was null on cactus. Confused on why he was the night kill, maybe the mafia was PR hunting? I thought that a lot of the town saw Hyrule/Cactus and CCGeek as a possible scumpair. That’s confusing to me.

This is classic scum as well - I have no idea why that kill was done. Completely baffling. /sarcasm

I’m going to be on my phone for this entire day phase unfortunately, so I can’t chop up this quote and respond point by point/make it pretty.

The RVS stuff I feel like you’re overthinking.

I do remember not unvoting him because I wasn’t happy with his responses - couldn’t really put why into words so I chose to not say anything instead.

I don’t remember it I was giving myself space to leave the wagon, I *felt* like my play was fluid and spontaneous and I was leaning into that

Several people voted for me/pushed on me. Obviously every game is different, but I would not have nightkilled cactus. I typed out why, but I feel like I would be coaching scum and wouldn’t help the town.

[Baron Kirkholm Uttgart]

I’m back and starting to read through the game for the other scum, I’m looking at BBT, Redados and Biancos first

I realise this doesn't help my case but it seems fairly unlikely that Bianco is scum because;

They were on the CC wagon, pretty much remain unwavered at the end when pressure was being applied to switch the vote to Chazary.

snip reads list

For me this reads list speaks volumes, not so much for what is written on it but more from the perspective of who’s not included in it.

I firmly believe those stated on this list are all town. That leaves Hellhound, BBT and Chazary. I have quite a strong town read on Hellhound currently. Thus narrowing it down to BBT and Chazary. Both who are somewhat scum read in my opinion.

I did have BBT down as town leaning in D1. However, reading both CCG’s posts and BBTs isolation swayed that. His vote in CCG seemed convenient at the time to distance himself and really no explanation was provided for that vote.

Right now I would be comfortable with either a BBT or Chazary elimination, although I think I would prefer to start with Chazary and then follow it up with BBT. Thoughts?

You understand that these reads were presented on page 2, right? Like, all of the people who were not included simply hadn't posted. It's a pretty big stretch to say that scum must be in the people who a) were not included in a page 2 reads list and b) hadn't posted in the game.

Talk to me about why I'm scum.

VOTE: CCGeek

E-1

This is his very next contribution. It seems he’s trying to join in an effort to be seen as town, knowing it’s too late for CCG anyway. Remember, his only comment on CCG before was questioning them being very town, which I can see scum doing to their pair with very little repercussions. BBT didn’t even call CCG scum. He just questioned ‘very town’, which is sort of a gimme.

Alright, let's look at this. So, I am trying to join the CCG wagon as an effort to look town - do you think a naked vote garners that reaction? Do you think my vote might get more credence if I, you know, stated reasons for my vote and made it look like I was fully invested into it? Which type of vote do you think

appears

more townie? I stand by what I said yesterday in that it wasn't too late to form a new wagon, my biggest problem right now is that it looks like I was trying to drive a counter-wagon to a wagon that ended up on scum and that's a completely fair accusation.

But, if what you say is true that CCG was inevitable, does it not make more sense for me to present a solid, thought-out vote with reasons (remember I would know that CCG was scum and it would be extremely easy for me to present a solid case on him) as opposed to just throwing down some naked vote in the hopes that it gets me some town cred? I actually think my vote looks a hell of a lot worse if CCG flipped town.

As for CCG himself, his posting around the time he was under pressure came across as extremely relaxed and it did make me think that he was town and we needed to look elsewhere. He completely fooled me with his late D1 posting because the truth is that I didn't really have much of a read on CCG through the first 12 pages or so. That was the whole point of my vote.

Can anyone talk to me about Chazary and Hellhound?

I probably want to vote out one of these today...

Maybe Red too actually.

Here BBT realises that CCG has a chance of not being voted out. They probe the group for

three

possible candidates…

VOTE: Chazary

Talk to me about this. Does creating a separate wagon at this point do anything? Let alone benefit town.

It's only a separate wagon until it gains more votes and then becomes leading wagon. We have time to wagon any given player in the game if the case/explanation is good enough. It takes maybe 6 hours to elim someone?

Chazary's posting over the first 12 pages has been pretty horrific. I think we find scum here if we elim him.

Or CCG can move to Chazary and make it E-1.

Chazary is right there.

And then tries to make the group pivot to the candidate that the group has deemed makes sense.

This is quite the stretch. I presented a case on Chazary and at the time of that post Chazary already had 3 votes - he was the most viable candidate of the 3 because of votes. There was no 'pivoting' needed because a solid wagon had already formed.

I came into D2 still wanting to elim Chazary but I don't actually think that makes sense now. Rereading CCG at end of D1, he looked like he was lining up to join the Chazary wagon after rereading his ISO but he never actually does. I did just notice something that I will put into a separate post though.

Also, the other time I asked this question I *also* asked Toffee, and I don’t remember him answering.
If I ask him to tell me a read, then later we can use how that read developed as a piece of data.

You're far too concerned with how I read you.

UNVOTE:

In the bit that I’ve bold and underlined, I don’t see how you have given yourself a case… it just sounds like you’re agreeing with me and saying ‘scum would act like town, and I didn’t, I acted like scum, so I’m town’

[Baron Kirkholm Uttgart]

Also on the Chazary idea, it’s not unlikely that chazary chose to kill cactus knowing that it would make more sense if red had. Which seems to be working out for them if that was the case. A strange kill either way.

[Redados]

Also on the Chazary idea, it’s not unlikely that chazary chose to kill cactus knowing that it would make more sense if red had. Which seems to be working out for them if that was the case. A strange kill either way.

I think that might be overthinking it.