Mini Normal 2285: GM [game over]

[Herta]

Anyone thinks it is possible/likely all three scum were on the Gera wagon?

geraintm [7]: Scoliosis, Toto

, Freedom, Herta, innocentvillager, Val89,

PookyTheMagicalBear

[HAMMER]
Scoliosis [4]: KittyTacky, Firebringer, MathBlade, Ydrasse
Herta [1]: geraintm
unwnd [1]: skitter30
not voting [0]:

If not at least one scum in {Kitty, Firebringer, MathBlade, Ydrasse, Skitter}.

It's funny the answer is almost the equivalent to are all PR claims true?

So which two of freedom. IV and Val do you think? I mean if that's the theory and I'm townreadin iv, the team is exactly Val and freedom. I don't know that I can see them pulling off a Scum strategy that doesn't involve at least one claiming or countering a pr.

[innocentvillager]

Maybe I’m exaggerating a little bit but it did feel like I’ve asked a few times today and you’re giving me either none or minimalist answers instead of taking the opportunity to convince me

[innocentvillager]

Herta can you tell me a bit more about your scumgame vs town game - and why from your point of view you are town this game, and should we be able to see it

[innocentvillager]

Looking at votes

Pooky's scoliosis push pretty quickly faded. He riled up everyone and unwnd votes sco in 458, Pooky at 459, Toto at 498, Herta at 508,. Then unwnd unvotes at 512 and Pooky unvotes at 555. At 557 Pooky says he's going to go back to scoliosis and he goes on to vote geraintm at 794 and just kind of drops the scoliosis push altogether while still talking smack about him.

Skitter votes me at 38 for reasons I still don't understand, unvotes at 462 because there's no wagon, and then revotes me at 607. She has pretty much sheeped Dann's case on me, which isn't a good one.

KittyTacky is doing what I would expect a town KittyTacky to do, tunnel on his initial read, which is scum!scoliosis who he voted at 11 and hasn't moved of of.

Ydra hasn't voted for anyone other than Pooky at 335 and then an unvote at 465. I don't remember Ydra being so uncommital but I don't remember a lot about their play in general.

Freedom has made one vote, geraintm at 722, and hasn't really committed to anything.

It took Val a long time to move off of his skitter vote at 106, when he voted scoliosis at 930, despite the obvious fact that there has been no will to wagon skitter all Day.

Geraintm has an RVS vote on me at 44, that he says is RVS but if you look at the post it doesn't look like RVS. No commitment to anything from him.

Dannflor's vote record looks okay: unwnd at 167 (could be RVS), Pooky at 419, Herta at 520, scoliosis at 749, geraintm at 866, and scoliosis again at 929, and the more I look at it the votes on unwnd, Pooky and Herta weren't really wagon votes so I think he looks better than what I had the impression of.

scoliosis doesn't look opportunistic, Val at 20, ydra at 41, skitter at 284, pooky at 468, unwnd at 551 and geraintm at 579. None of them were being wagoned except for the vote on ydra(church) was starting a wagon, and the vote on geraintm was the second vote.

Innocent Villager voted me at 79, pooky at 104 and geraintm at 107 with an unvote at 871. There's nothing scummy.

unwnd votes scoliosis at 458 after Pooky's case and unvotes at 512 when scoliosis says something to change their mind, geraintm at 753 sheeping IV with an unvote at 945.

I'd have KittyTacky and Innocentvillager as town. Maybe Val, Dann, unwnd as null town. geraintm as null scummish, freedom as null, Ydra as null, scoliosis as null scummish, Pooky as null scummish. Skitter as scum.

There's nothing really distinct btween Ydra and freedom. I could see being very wrong on Dann, unwnd and/or Pooky. My pool for today would be geraintm, scoliosis and skitter.

Also, this was your big notes post a while ago, after scum pooky prompted you to provide some thoughts. You said you were working on these notes. Did you stop taking notes/do you have other notes to share with us?

[innocentvillager]

Freedom is kind of a hero shot. He has no interactions with anyone really at least none that mean anything I don't think. So his flip is wasted if green bc no associations. I don't it but I'd rather someone who gives us an idea of rest of team.

@skitter this is the sort of comment I don’t really see coming from scum. Idk I don’t feel like scum talk about slots in this way.

[innocentvillager]

I'm okay with doing but this is one of the more interesting games I've been in.

Herta is town scum dont say shit like this lol

Bro idk why but when I read (and even now just on reread) these two posts of Herta I just can’t for the life of me figure out why scum would say something like this

It sounds so dumb but my gut is saying town for these posts alone, especially the second one

[innocentvillager]

Pooky could’ve just had TMI on Herta and saw things in his town game than uninformed players wouldn’t?

[innocentvillager]

Good post.

VOTE: gera

e-1

UNVOTE:

herta can you share some more of your thoughts with us please

also dont e-1 until after toto claims his info

Looking at votes

Pooky's scoliosis push pretty quickly faded. He riled up everyone and unwnd votes sco in 458, Pooky at 459, Toto at 498, Herta at 508,. Then unwnd unvotes at 512 and Pooky unvotes at 555. At 557 Pooky says he's going to go back to scoliosis and he goes on to vote geraintm at 794 and just kind of drops the scoliosis push altogether while still talking smack about him.

Skitter votes me at 38 for reasons I still don't understand, unvotes at 462 because there's no wagon, and then revotes me at 607. She has pretty much sheeped Dann's case on me, which isn't a good one.

KittyTacky is doing what I would expect a town KittyTacky to do, tunnel on his initial read, which is scum!scoliosis who he voted at 11 and hasn't moved of of.

Ydra hasn't voted for anyone other than Pooky at 335 and then an unvote at 465. I don't remember Ydra being so uncommital but I don't remember a lot about their play in general.

Freedom has made one vote, geraintm at 722, and hasn't really committed to anything.

It took Val a long time to move off of his skitter vote at 106, when he voted scoliosis at 930, despite the obvious fact that there has been no will to wagon skitter all Day.

Geraintm has an RVS vote on me at 44, that he says is RVS but if you look at the post it doesn't look like RVS. No commitment to anything from him.

Dannflor's vote record looks okay: unwnd at 167 (could be RVS), Pooky at 419, Herta at 520, scoliosis at 749, geraintm at 866, and scoliosis again at 929, and the more I look at it the votes on unwnd, Pooky and Herta weren't really wagon votes so I think he looks better than what I had the impression of.

scoliosis doesn't look opportunistic, Val at 20, ydra at 41, skitter at 284, pooky at 468, unwnd at 551 and geraintm at 579. None of them were being wagoned except for the vote on ydra(church) was starting a wagon, and the vote on geraintm was the second vote.

Innocent Villager voted me at 79, pooky at 104 and geraintm at 107 with an unvote at 871. There's nothing scummy.

unwnd votes scoliosis at 458 after Pooky's case and unvotes at 512 when scoliosis says something to change their mind, geraintm at 753 sheeping IV with an unvote at 945.

I'd have KittyTacky and Innocentvillager as town. Maybe Val, Dann, unwnd as null town. geraintm as null scummish, freedom as null, Ydra as null, scoliosis as null scummish, Pooky as null scummish. Skitter as scum.

There's nothing really distinct btween Ydra and freedom. I could see being very wrong on Dann, unwnd and/or Pooky. My pool for today would be geraintm, scoliosis and skitter.

That was up to mid-day today. I need to add this evening.

This doesn’t feel like a coached/orchestrated interaction, but I could be confibased a little?

[Toto]

Why are you townreading all of:me, herta, freedom, and unwnd

you just feel pretty townie to me

like peta says you're just kind of an easy read

the way I read you is mostly looking at your posts - comparing to thread and seeing if you're keeping up and generally how much you want to be here. if you feel like you want to be here/engage I slot you as town. You have issues keeping up with the thread this starts looking worse. Granted this isn't the fastest moving game so its not like foolproof way to slot you rn it still feels to me like you are engaged in the game and actually enjoying playing. I know I am biased because your last two scum games you kind of flaked out and those were larges moving at p fast speed but I think this is closer to how you looked in the coalition run than either of those scum games.

herta is very stilted as mafia, he doesn't really flow into the thread, it's like the guy at the party who has a drink in his hand but isn't involved in any of the conversations.

freedom is town because when he's scum, his questions are agenda-y and you can sort of see where he's trying to push something - here he's just kind of asking random things and popping in to say things.

unwnd is town because his play is completely perpendicular to his scum play - it is unstructured and freeflowing in a way that I don't think he really enjoys doing in general and especially as scum because chaos is the enemy of making plans.

Are these all town?

Funny Skitter is doing what pooky says scum!skitter does.

[innocentvillager]

If Herta is scum, Herta’s E1 was not part of the plan.

Herta did it and scum!Pooky knew that it made Herta look bad so he unvoted to posture and look townie but mainly to do damage control on Herta. He knows Herta’s been planning some catch-up post so he tells Herta to post that quickly and make it look organic.


This is like the only world I see this as a scum scum interaction. It doesn’t feel right that Herta’s E1 and Pooky’s unvoted was all orchestrated, that feels too weird and Herta is already a E1-happy person this game. Why feel the need to risk with the E1 in the first place?

So in order for this to work out, Pooky needs to make the decision in a few minutes to rush Herta on his catch-up notes and give him an opportunity to towntell. Which like, fine, it could happen, but a) why didn’t Herta check in with the scum PT before just doing it? The other wagon was Scoliosis who is also town, so there was no rush to E1 gera and b) why does scum Herta have all those notes basically done if he’s not planning on theatering with Pooky?

It’s too low key of an interaction to be like a completely orchestrated interaction and if it’s a partially orchestrated interaction prompted off of pooky trying to damage control it’s like, too ridiculous idk.

The Occam’s razor of what’s going on there is Herta is an E1 happy person and Pooky saw an opportunity to posture/pretend he was helping town by slowing down the leading wagon when all the wagons were on town anyway. He didn’t expect Herta to actually come up with a townish looking wall so he felt like with his trajectory he had to called Herta town later, even if he had TMId him at the beginning

With all things there is uncertainty, but this is my best guess for what happened.

[innocentvillager]

I have my own thoughts on skitter but I’ll wait for skitter to clap back at me first

[innocentvillager]

Why are you townreading all of:me, herta, freedom, and unwnd

you just feel pretty townie to me

like peta says you're just kind of an easy read

the way I read you is mostly looking at your posts - comparing to thread and seeing if you're keeping up and generally how much you want to be here. if you feel like you want to be here/engage I slot you as town. You have issues keeping up with the thread this starts looking worse. Granted this isn't the fastest moving game so its not like foolproof way to slot you rn it still feels to me like you are engaged in the game and actually enjoying playing. I know I am biased because your last two scum games you kind of flaked out and those were larges moving at p fast speed but I think this is closer to how you looked in the coalition run than either of those scum games.

herta is very stilted as mafia, he doesn't really flow into the thread, it's like the guy at the party who has a drink in his hand but isn't involved in any of the conversations.

freedom is town because when he's scum, his questions are agenda-y and you can sort of see where he's trying to push something - here he's just kind of asking random things and popping in to say things.

unwnd is town because his play is completely perpendicular to his scum play - it is unstructured and freeflowing in a way that I don't think he really enjoys doing in general and especially as scum because chaos is the enemy of making plans.

Are these all town?

Funny Skitter is doing what pooky says scum!skitter does.

If anyone is scum here it’s Freedom maybe? but I would venture that the majority of these are town

[innocentvillager]

Oh skitter is included in that pool. I guess skitter could be scum. But we’ll see what skit says first

[innocentvillager]

I’m curious to see if anyone agrees with my points for town Herta

Like genuinely try to look at it in an unbiased way and see if you see what I’m seeing? I know it’s hard because I’ve already said what I see personally so its kinda hngngnggghh,,…, but like I guess try anyway? I would feel really bad if im defending someone who’s just been playing level 0 scum and I wifomed myself into thinking he’s town based on nonsense

[Toto]

I just completed a game w/ herta where he was town and was very similar stuff to what he is doing here. Could he be replicating, maybe? I've seem some of his scum games and he is a bit more agenda-y/wolfish. I think. But I honestly don't think I can read herta tbh.

[innocentvillager]

I mean if what you are saying is true then the meta is clearly in favor of Herta town here.

Thing is you’re not even sure if it’s true though, so that’s an issue. Hopefully you’re not biased by me.

[Toto]

I have no strong reasons meta wise to believe he is scum, lets put it that way.

In the pooky-skitter-herta interaction, skitter looks like a more likely partner, imo.

[innocentvillager]

One thing that gives me pause is Pooky is 100% capable of hard defending a partner, I saw it once in Team Mafia 2021 where he literally defended his partner Kanna and yelled at the town about how bad they were during her twilight, lol. So Pooky could’ve felt that he was good enough to bullshit some vibe townread on his scum partner Herta.

It’s still not impossible that those 4 are all town, remember the targets were Scoliosis and geraint both of which were town at the time, so it’s not like he was lacking for targets

And also, the first thing he said at the beginning of D2 was that he was going to “reset his reads” (which at the time scumpinged me because it was such a weird time to feel the need to do that), so he gets to ditch these reads anyway. He could’ve been TMI truthtelling on 4 townies in that post as well.

[innocentvillager]

Ydrasse could be town and skitter was rolestopped by partner or something. If scum have a rolestopper it seems fairly natural to use it on skit.

[innocentvillager]

did scum skitter give up? Also possible

[Toto]

Complexity is defined by the following collection of characteristics. The more of them that a game has, the more likely it should be labeled complex rather than simple. The reverse is true as well: the fewer of these are applicable, the more likely the setup ought to be labeled as simple rather than complex.

Having several roles with modifiers, especially modifiers that affect targeting (e.g. simple,

loyal

) or fundamentally affect the way one would play the role (e.g. announcing, weak)
Having some roles with several modifiers

Having a large proportion of non-vanilla roles in general

Having anything that could be construed as a

red herring

(e.g., two of the same town role, a backup or enabler without a main role, a neighborhood with only mafia, a miller without a cop, etc.)

Having complicated interactions between roles (e.g. multiple blocking roles that may affect each other, generally anything that might make a reviewer need to think twice about how it would work)

Having many roles that aren't seen as frequently in normal games
Anything else that would potentially defy the expectations of a player who's played normal games before

We check a lot of those boxes for sure.

am I a red-herring? >.<

[KittyTacky]

Sorry for not posting much I am just a little demoralized and confused.

[Herta]

It was important for us to know 0 that there were ninjas. Otherwise the game is unbalanced??? Or is the ninja thing a red herring? It doesn't feel like it is. I mean what is it distracting us from?

[Herta]

I know you had questions iv. I'll get to them. I was just looking in before bed.

[MathBlade]

Complexity is defined by the following collection of characteristics. The more of them that a game has, the more likely it should be labeled complex rather than simple. The reverse is true as well: the fewer of these are applicable, the more likely the setup ought to be labeled as simple rather than complex.

Having several roles with modifiers, especially modifiers that affect targeting (e.g. simple,

loyal

) or fundamentally affect the way one would play the role (e.g. announcing, weak)
Having some roles with several modifiers

Having a large proportion of non-vanilla roles in general

Having anything that could be construed as a

red herring

(e.g., two of the same town role, a backup or enabler without a main role, a neighborhood with only mafia, a miller without a cop, etc.)

Having complicated interactions between roles (e.g. multiple blocking roles that may affect each other, generally anything that might make a reviewer need to think twice about how it would work)

Having many roles that aren't seen as frequently in normal games
Anything else that would potentially defy the expectations of a player who's played normal games before

We check a lot of those boxes for sure.

am I a red-herring? >.<

Where did you get that definition?