Mini 2287: AB:LoAF (Postgame)

[TemporalLich]

hello everyone

may the chaos begin

VOTE: Not_Mafia

[TemporalLich]

Yeah I believe the only reason to meta janitor everyone but not mafia would be for memes

This effectively leaves no info for Day 1 besides that we are playing a setup with non-standard factions

Anyway, Marashu seems town but this is still early D1

[TemporalLich]

VOTE: Herta

Scum mindset, claiming miller instantly is scummy tactic

[TemporalLich]

I think benign means that they can win with another faction, usually benign factions are town-compatible

[TemporalLich]

Claiming miller instantly is how you play miller, no?

Also maybe I'm starting to townread aisa, seems like a happy bunny that's towning the thread with bouncy energy

Kinda thought you claim miller either late D1 or early D2

Claiming miller after a red check is too late however.

[TemporalLich]

The way I see it, the earlier one claims pretty much anything during a day phase the better - less pre-existing info, less time to plan a claim. Why did you think this?

Miller is absurdly easy to fakeclaim so it shouldn't look like a fakeclaim

[TemporalLich]

anyway it is obviously too early to massclaim, we are still at a zero info Day 1 and a massclaim is not advised

pedit: UNVOTE: Herta for being incredibly gambity

[TemporalLich]

I assumed it was usual RVS stuff so I ignored it. If this is legit, then I don't see why they would wait until then? By that time they could be scumread and it would look worse. I don't see an issue with them claiming it now.

why would you want to claim miller instantly if you're actually a Town Miller?

that just seems scummy posturing during RVS which is trying too hard

[TemporalLich]

wouldn't you be worried about that being scummy posturing?

claiming miller right away just throws out all the positive utility that role could of had (losing your chance to gambit)

[TemporalLich]

I don't know miller strategy so take that with a grain of salt... but I am pretty sure claiming Miller during RVS is actually claiming Traitor

[TemporalLich]

I got backed into overconfidence and backing down would be scummy

[TemporalLich]

yeah I guess but I should meme more



VOTE: Enchant

Devoid of content, but we are still apparently in RVS

[TemporalLich]

scummy push

[TemporalLich]

my vote is obviously not an RVS vote but a pressure vote as Herta's gambit is way too risky for scum

[TemporalLich]

Marashu doesn't seem scum

VOTE: Kokichi Oma

starting to see a scummy mindset again

pedit: your reaction test doesn't faze me

[TemporalLich]

alright

I don't decide when RVS ends but having actual votes is better than RVS votes

that being said, it's too early for me to provide a lead rist because Fuyuhiko Kuzuryu has not posted yet

[TemporalLich]

It's still early D1, lead rists are better if you have reasons for each position in the list

[TemporalLich]

What's the scummy mindset you're seeing?

Voting Marashu purely to wagon with no good reason...

not even sheeping could explain that

yeah that's the question

but even if he wanted to talk about people what was that about 1 not posting yet?

it just doesn't make sense

that was the main reason I wasn't going to make a lead rist immediately

though it still is early D1 and lead rists are high effort for what is meant to be a non-serious setup

[TemporalLich]

It was about me calling the miller claim scummy for it being during RVS

[TemporalLich]

here is a lead rist for now

[Town]

Gimli - Town mindset, which can be discerned by towny posts appearing to be thoughtstreamed.
Herta - Way too gambity to be scum, despite the hasty claim.
Aisa - Good pushes.
KittyTacky - Seemingly townie.
Not_Mafia - Is Not_Mafia.
Enchant - Mostly RVS content, if not then setup spec.
narrow parking - An RVS vote and nothing else as of now.
Fuyuhiko Kuzuryu - No content as of now.
Yume - No content as of now except for a vote out of the blue.
Kyoko Kirigiri - Yeah idk.
Marashu - Seemingly not townie.
Kokichi Oma - Scummy mindset.

[Scum]

[TemporalLich]

@Temporal, mind expanding a bit on your KittyTacky read? Also on how your read on me changed from 78 to 133?

KittyTacky's questions feel towny to me.

When I was reading your ISO for when I was compiling the lead rist, it didn't feel towny despite my initial read. That being said, your push is towny to the point "seemingly not townie" doesn't make sense as a read.

Just having a busy day. The list is pretty meh and I'm not sure what was his big fuss about "making a list" not making a list till that specific slot also posts stuff specially since in list its still "No content as of now"

whats "scummy mindset" with kokichi. can you elaborate on that read?

Yeah... It was past early D1 despite not everyone having content but I was needing to do a lead rist so I can make sure my vote makes sense.

Anyway, Kokichi Oma's pushes feel like they have ulterior motives behind them.

[TemporalLich]

I've been lurking but the game is stalled so my vote on Kokichi stands (better to actually vote scum than to sheep if time pressure is clearly not a factor)

[TemporalLich]

Also Kokichi clearly wants a mislim or at least to cause confrusion

[TemporalLich]

Yeah that response from Fuyuhiko was scummy, Herta already shared the useful info anyway as it would have just gave scum a heads up

pedit: I can't dispute that

[TemporalLich]

VOTE: Fuyuhiko Kuzuryu

Scummy push, scum mindset

[TemporalLich]

Yeah you're not exactly helping your case

[TemporalLich]

Not answering questions from obvious scum

[TemporalLich]

Overconfidence doesn't leave room for error which is why it can end bad

pedit: I can't dispute that.

[TemporalLich]

Associative detected

[TemporalLich]

Not_Mafia is a known lolhammerer so E-1 is likely to lead to an elimination

[TemporalLich]

Nah, but I was in a game with Not_Mafia (Superfight Mafia) and there was lolhammers.

[TemporalLich]

@Lich analyze the wagon on you, please. What do you think of each vote?

Marashu's vote on me is an RVS vote, so that's a purely NAI vote
Aisa's vote on me is towny (I believe the vote was in RVS, but Aisa put out a case on me which has a towny mindset even though the case itself is meh)
Fuyuhiko Kuzuryu's vote on me is somewhat reactive but also comes with an associative, so I will say the vote itself is NAI (the pushes are scummy though)
Kokichi Oma's vote on me is scummy and the post afterward basically means they were rolefishing the universal miller claim

[TemporalLich]

VOTE: Kokichi Oma

Best elim as of now due to having many associatives... Kokichi and Kyoko are very likely co-aligned

[TemporalLich]

There was a point where Herta had only claimed Miller without extra info, and it seemed like Herta was pushed to actually claim that info

[TemporalLich]

I can't answer that question.

[TemporalLich]

answering that question would collapse my scum equity

[TemporalLich]

but I'm still leading wagon so the pressure on me is high

[TemporalLich]

kyoko isn't towny

[TemporalLich]

let me townread her goddamit

no

[TemporalLich]

actually idk

my scumreads might be merging together

[TemporalLich]

actually idk

my scumreads might be merging together

what does that mean, merging together? as in they're aligning themselves ITT from your POV?

no, kokichi and kyoko were seemingly the same player and I was scumreading kokichi

then again kokichi and kyoko are very likely co-aligned and it would be difficult to convince me that a kokichi wagon is not the way to end Day 1 as a kokichi elimination will provide a lot of info

[TemporalLich]

considering that kokichi and kyoko have very strong associatives... my vote is on kokichi because kokichi is an outright openwolf (and not in a jestery way)

[TemporalLich]

what are our strong "associatives"

and why is kokichi an "open wolf"

Your ISO is hard defending kokichi and you and kokichi are nearly impossible to tell apart

Kokichi is throwing out many scummy tactics and the associatives are strong and I see scummy mindset.

some examples:

68 - trying to sound NAI
76 - strange vote decision
248 - pocketing
249 - scummy mindset
316 - associative I believe, but only a weak one
347 - posturing and trying to avoid being the NK

[TemporalLich]

lich, why is 249 scummy mindset?

that post feels like distancing

[TemporalLich]

I still prefer eliminating yume from this game fwiw.

any case? Yume just looks like a lurker with a vote out of the blue.

[TemporalLich]

I'm only at E-2 it's not time to claim yet even though Not_Mafia is in this game and would probably lolhammer before I get a chance to claim

(softclaim: I'm a meta role)

[TemporalLich]

okay I think this is for the best.

TL, you either fullclaim now or I'm putting you on E-1. I think the best way we can play this out is either eliminate you or have your claim so we can absolutely move to different targets. you're not gonna convince anyone you're town by posting, I don't think.

claiming Meta-Neighbor

I discarded Extension

[TemporalLich]

on yume, I think the fact that the slot has done absolutely nothing is enough to eliminate. this game has crazy factions, probably a smaller than usual amount of actual townies (I think?) so scumhunting is hard with different factions pushing for different things. an absent player becomes a reasonable choice, even though it's not one that gives the most information.

this game could be multiball

I'd rather vote someone actively being scummy than someone with very little besides a vote that looks scummy, but if time pressure is a factor I am willing to vote Yume

[TemporalLich]

gonna post another lead rist then:

[Town]

Gimli - Very likely town, good leader.
Doctor Drew - Quite towny.
Herta - Somewhat towny, there are towny posts from Herta.
KittyTacky - Seemingly towny still.
Aisa - Lean town, recent posts are okay.
Enchant - Recent posts are very slightly towny.
Not_Mafia - Still Not_Mafia.
Fuyuhiko Kuzuryu - A bit scummy, but there is a clear towny trend.
Marashu - Still seemingly not townie, 157 is an okay post.
Yume - Lurker with a scummy vote... still no good content.
Kyoko Kirigiri - Scummy, likely co-aligned with Kokichi.
Kokichi Oma - Very scummy, likely co-aligned with Kyoko.

[Scum]

so yeah, Yume is indeed a good vote.

[TemporalLich]

Are you in a neighborhood now or is the first neighbor on N1? I forgot how that role works.

I indeed have a neighborhood right now.

[TemporalLich]

I am townreading Doctor Drew because Doctor Drew has a town mindset... 228 is a good example.

Enchant is very slightly towny still.

and yeah I picked meta-neighbor because neighbor is a quite useful role.

I would still want to elim Kokichi because that would make D2's elim easy and also be very likely to hit scum (though if Kokichi flips town, it actually might be enough to clear Kyoko). Yume would be okay but Day 2 would not be easy as Yume doesn't have any associatives or anti-associatives.

[TemporalLich]

249 and 316 is the kind of distancing that only strengthens an associative.

[TemporalLich]

yeah, a game that's potentially multiball is a game where associatives are important as scum need to scumhunt in a potentially multiball game.

[TemporalLich]

Did I not do the same thing with Marashu? Why are you only focused on Kirigiri? I think you just thought we were the same person then realized we weren't and are faking a read.

Actually no, you didn't. I'm pretty sure you never townread Marashu and I didn't see posts that would be distancing, unless you think 20 or 76 is distancing.

[TemporalLich]

at least as far as I could tell with your ISO...

[TemporalLich]

I'm not sure then... I am probably missing context or something.

[TemporalLich]

I can't really tell whether rain or hail would be better. Hail would be good if we have scumteams that can outright kill like Raging Beasts or Negach Syndicate, but Rain is better for dispelling the Dark Creatures and Arsonist Cartel who can hide.

anyway, 435 is a bad defense

[TemporalLich]

if the day ended now I'd want hail

[TemporalLich]

what info would we gain with a Yume elim?

Yume has literally zero associatives and like 5% of a read.

[TemporalLich]

that being said, Yume is still a good vote but I'll vote Yume when time pressure is a factor.

[TemporalLich]

that's not time pressure, that's just regular pressure

[TemporalLich]

we still have more than 48 hours left, so time pressure isn't a factor unless you think the game is stalled

[TemporalLich]

eh I think the cloud seeder claim did generate some activity... regarding the claim itself

[TemporalLich]

yeah... hail is better if we simply end the day now with no further info

[TemporalLich]

Why not vote Kokichi? Kokichi is an openwolf, we would likely eliminate scum, and we'd have a lot of info going into Day 2.

[TemporalLich]

Hmm... asides from the actually important reason of scummy mindset... I'd say the pushes are forced, the defenses don't work, and the associative with Kyoko is scummy.

[TemporalLich]

if I don't vote either kokichi or kyoko I'd vote Yume... but at that point I'd more want to apply pressure and time pressure to see something interesting happen

[TemporalLich]

the vote will apply pressure, however time pressure comes from the deadline approaching so only time can apply time pressure

[TemporalLich]

anyway... VOTE: Yume

I am still here, but am also busy, so...

Please at least post some content in this game, your lack of content and lurking is very scummy

[TemporalLich]

Considering Marashu gained a lot of town points surrounding the claim (yes, I believe Marashu's claim is extremely towny), if not Yume than I'd vote Fuyuhiko (454 is NAI at best but 432 is a towny hasty claim).

And I think Yume is significantly scummier than Fuyuhiko right now.

[TemporalLich]

KittyTacky still feels towny but idk

the ISO is indeed mostly commentary, but that commentary felt towny to me

[TemporalLich]

Aren't they one of your biggest scumreads?

Yes. Low info but high scumminess is a decent vote, but is not as good as a vote on someone with high scumminess and info.

Considering this is Day 1, info matters.

[TemporalLich]

495 is a good case. My townread on KittyTacky was mostly based on the commentary being towny... but the lack of engagement is indeed concerning...

And the commentary might be NAI anyway lol, which undermines my previous townread on KittyTacky.

lich, are there jesters in the setup?

not that I know of, but the Vampire does has an incentive to be eliminated.

[TemporalLich]

yeah I forgot Deathseeker somehow... That's indeed jestery, but never on Day 1.

are you a vampire

are you implying I'm acting jestery? that's really bad when my claimed role (meta-neighbor) requires credibility to work.

[TemporalLich]

I tried seeing if KT has any associatives... best I can come up with is that KT and Gimli are highly unlikely to be SvS (if we ignore that Gimli is obvtown)

[TemporalLich]

I wish to be able to post content, I really do, but it's still D1 and that's when I am still in the 'floundering' stage.

alright... What's your reasoning behind your Gimli vote?

Also, how do you feel about the case in 495?

pedit:

nth

[TemporalLich]

Well, I do. You literally saw me play that way in the last temple game, so....

???

and you actually had content that game apparently according to 523.

Then are you Vampire? Because I agree with Gimli you're acting like you want to be elim'd this game. I can't find one towny thing you've done and I've been looking for something.

if it isn't clear... no I'm not

Why do you think your neighbor Doctor wants you elim'd? Do you think they could be scum/third party?

I'm assuming the obvious reason of distancing, but Doctor Drew did back up my claim so distancing isn't a good reason... so I have -20% of an idea.

@TemporalLich the neighbourhood seems pretty important to you. Any progress there yet?

Nothing actually interesting yet sadly... Doctor Drew seems to think I'm a jester so we have opposing goals for the neighborhood.

[TemporalLich]

basically, I'm treating Doctor Drew as cleared so I'm unwilling to push Doctor Drew.

[TemporalLich]

TL, can you explain to me why Gimli is obvtown?

If I have to actually explain that than Gimli isn't obvtown... but here is an explanation: Gimli is an extremely good town leader with very high charisma, is a shining beacon of towniness, has good cases like 453, 491, and 523, and produces a lot of content.

I actually read Gimli as more towny than Doctor Drew who I'm treating as

cleared

.

pedit: I'd say Yume is a scummy lurker, however KT is scummy because he is coasting and merely appearing to have content.

[TemporalLich]

considering that KT actually gives a little bit of info (namely, KT and Gimli are highly unlikely to be co-aligned groupscum ignoring Gimli being obvtown), KT is a more economical vote.

VOTE: KittyTacky

I have around equal preference for a KT or Yume elim.

[TemporalLich]

Bad logic. If Doctor Drew is scum, he would have to confirm your hood regardless. If he didn't and then you were proved to be a Town Neighbor then Doctor would be elim'd right after. I think them proving the neighborhood is NAI

Considering that I townread Doctor Drew, treating Doctor Drew as if they were cleared is useful for neighborhood purposes.

[TemporalLich]

I’m going to guess this cleared status is derived from hood contents?

I guess that is a factor... but it isn't the only factor, this is mostly because of game thread content and an incentive to utilize my role

[TemporalLich]

Fun fact: KT's claim would basically be a Force of Nature during hail

[TemporalLich]

In other words, highly confirmable in this setup

[TemporalLich]

VOTE: Yume

KT claimed a trivially confirmable role

[TemporalLich]

VOTE: Yume

KT claimed a trivially confirmable role

and

the catch-up feels very NAI so I don't think KT is any scummier. Note that KT's claimed role is effectively a Force of Nature assuming a Vigilante would fail or be redirected, and one of Marashu's claimed abilities globally roleblocks (and refunds limited abilities). This combination is trivially confirmable and will result in a guaranteed nightkill.

Yume is now the more economical vote.

[TemporalLich]

@lich: why did you say your full claim would decrease your scum equity by a lot, when it's not the case?

that was about answering why pressuring Herta to elaborate on their miller claim was "role fishing" (rather, fishing for said elaboration)

that being said, I no longer have pressure on me and you're a good town leader so it would be worth answering... but I checked back and the "role fishing" accusation was completely baseless.

[TemporalLich]

so you were just lying there to make pressure go away, yes? as a neighborizer.

I claimed meta-neighbor, not neighborizer.

anyway I apparently wasn't reading the game intently early D1... oh and that was when I was the only one getting pressure as well so I needed to deflect it... so yeah, after checking that claim, kyoko is now the one I scumread the most.

[TemporalLich]

if we flip yume instead then KT can still be a wolf and then kill someone we wouldn't and then go 'well i had a read' etc

VOTE: Kyoko Kirigiri

We have less than 36 hours left of the day... so time pressure is starting to be a factor.

Kyoko still has an associative with Kokichi, 486 is not really a good case, and 435 is a very bad defense. Kokichi also appears to be getting townier with 567 being a good post.

[TemporalLich]

621 was giving a reason to not eliminate Yume... hence why I changed my vote from Yume.

[TemporalLich]

486 was me saying pushing yume is not so much better than pushing you if we consider you a low hanging fruit

how did you read that post and labeled it a case?

are you even reading?

okay but it's still not a good post... it is sort of a case on Gimli though.

[TemporalLich]

regardless, Kyoko's response is not what I'd consider a towny response, so I'm not changing my vote again

[TemporalLich]

welp I'm at E-2 and I'm not sure what case is against me

[TemporalLich]

I still believe kyoko is the best elimination for D1

[TemporalLich]

before anyone hammers, consider that kyoko is probably scummy

[TemporalLich]

what about kokichi

[TemporalLich]

I still won despite being D1 elim...

anyway, I changed out "seeded randomized" for "pre-randomized", was wanting for this game to finish before renaming roles

[TemporalLich]

also, no redactions from me

[TemporalLich]

still want to see the Mod PT to see what roles were possible this game lol

also I probably should have picked Extension