Mini Normal 2289 - Postgame

[T3]

VOTE: Frogster
no

[T3]

VOTE: Frogster
no

No what?

You're latching on to NAI stuff in order to start discussion

Which is fair tbh

[T3]

VOTE: Eiralox

That feels like a scum entrance. Why are you sheeping Dionysus onto a vote on someone who hasn't confirmed their PM?

I think this post is bad

I also am liking brickwall's most recent posts

[T3]

VOTE: Eiralox

That feels like a scum entrance. Why are you sheeping Dionysus onto a vote on someone who hasn't confirmed their PM?

I think this post is bad

I also am liking brickwall's most recent posts

Bad as in bad reasoning or scummy?

scummy

[T3]

VOTE: Eiralox

That feels like a scum entrance. Why are you sheeping Dionysus onto a vote on someone who hasn't confirmed their PM?

I think this post is bad

I also am liking brickwall's most recent posts

Bad as in bad reasoning or scummy?

scummy

okay, why? And why are you still voting for Frogs instead of me if you think his posting is "fair" (44)?

I thought that your post was scummy because it was latching on to something NAI this early. Also the tone felt forced. There wasn't much beyond that, so I decided not to vote your. My vote on Frogster is RVS. UNVOTE:

[T3]

Do you have any top scummy

posts

, CSF? For example I keep going back to 20 and 27.

Also, do you think I'm tinfoiling over 20 and 27 or do those posts ping you too?

This actually feels like you trying to pocket CSF.

[T3]

frogsterking with a lot of busy work, probscum.

Frogster having a lot of busywork is NAI.

[T3]

you are kind of good at seeming obvtown

Brickwall is going at

seeming

obvtown? Scum pings from this post, to me it indicates that Frogster isn't actually committed to his Brickwall read? I guess?

[T3]

I'm getting scumvibes from 20. I wouldn't exactly call it buddying but it does seem like the sort of jokey post scum would make towards a Townie.

VOTE: SaveTheDragons

I agree, but it's also tonally consistent with how I perceive STD to be in general.

[T3]

VOTE: T3

VOTE: T3

where did this come from?

[T3]

I'm getting scumvibes from 20. I wouldn't exactly call it buddying but it does seem like the sort of jokey post scum would make towards a Townie.

VOTE: SaveTheDragons

I agree, but it's also tonally consistent with how I perceive STD to be in general.

Can you talk more about this, T3? Do you believe it's logical to guess Dragons is scum who is emulating the tone of his Town game and not the other aspects?

I'm not saying that he's mimicking the tone of his town game, I am saying that the post he made is consistent with how I perceive him to play in general. In other words, it's NAI.

[T3]

T3 - Why do you think this post is scummy #45

I already explained this

VOTE: Eiralox

That feels like a scum entrance. Why are you sheeping Dionysus onto a vote on someone who hasn't confirmed their PM?

I think this post is bad

I also am liking brickwall's most recent posts

Bad as in bad reasoning or scummy?

scummy

okay, why? And why are you still voting for Frogs instead of me if you think his posting is "fair" (44)?

I thought that your post was scummy because it was latching on to something NAI this early. Also the tone felt forced. There wasn't much beyond that, so I decided not to vote your. My vote on Frogster is RVS. UNVOTE:

[T3]

I mean the sensation of wanting to post but not being sure what to say

What posts specifically?

[T3]

@

T3

@

Brickwalll

Do you have thoughts on alchemist posting? Also T3 that makes sense wrt Dragon.

#alchemist sorting

Nothing pinged me either other than an overall town 'vibe' that I got from his posts. The furtive scumread seems genuine upon looking back at his ISO>

[T3]

The ones I quoted, especially when you give two contradictory statements on Frog in one post

Oh yeah, I should get more sleep

I can't really defend against this - my post about Frog came from a place of mild exasperation about Frog's playstyle.

[T3]

VOTE: T3

where did this come from?

you seem more mellow than I remember you

This is definitely within my recent town meta as opposed to my recent scum meta.

[T3]

The ones I quoted, especially when you give two contradictory statements on Frog in one post

Oh yeah, I should get more sleep

I can't really defend against this - my post about Frog came from a place of mild exasperation about Frog's playstyle.

I’m trying to do that reread I promised to have done by Wednesday and there’s something bothering me so far.

@T3 you unvoted Frog because you said it was an RVS vote, but since then you gave a couple reasons to scumread him but never moved your vote back, nor are you voting anyone else. Is there a reason you’re not voting anyone right now?

I don't really like voting until I have stronger reads. I also liked Frogster's Brickwall analysis and I agreed with a lot of it. If anything Frogster is sitting at lean town for me right now.

[T3]

I dunno about lycanfire but ceph is probably scum because he always rolls scum

VOTE: cephrir

This post is weird. Previously STD shaded the Lycan wagon, now he decides to vote Cephrir while playing it off as a joke? And if this vote was truly a joke, why does STD do this so late in the game?

[T3]

I really liked Frogster's case on Cephrir. I also think that Cephrir's read of Enchant is probably correct and good.

[T3]

I really liked Frogster's case on Cephrir. I also think that Cephrir's read of Enchant is probably correct and good.

You're dabbling in some major paradoxes here my friend.

I am but I also think that you can’t really lie about a meta case.

[T3]

Eiralox is playing very different to how I remember them play as town

[T3]

1. Dionysus - no idea, i'll read his ISO again
4. Alchemist21 - town
5. Enchant - lean scum
6. Frogsterking - town
7. Eiralox - lean scum
8. Save The Dragons - lean scum
9. Cephrir - scum
10. Cat Scratch Fever - null, i haven't read her ISO yet
11. PenguinPower - null/town
12. Brickwalll - lean town
13. furtiveglance - lean town

[T3]

Very well then.

I'm not voting you now, or soon to be frank. I like Dionysus's current vote, not seeing T3 having their head in the game here if I'm frank.

End transmission.


(those are a lot franks!)

Are you familiar with the principle "reads vs reasons" ? That's the gist of my Townread on T3. I also think his read progression on me is believable. I think T3 expected me to be more toxic and bad takes, and he reevaluated when he saw that I was putting in a good effort.

My experience of you has been that your reads are good but you generate a lot of noise that is counterproductive to the game being solved. And then you weren't doing that this game, which made me more receptive to what you were saying.

[T3]

4. Alchemist21 - town

why

I liked his analysis of you and furtive and he seemed to be open to other people's ideas.

[T3]

4. Alchemist21 - town

why

I liked his analysis of you and furtive and he seemed to be open to other people's ideas.

Furtive? I didn’t have much to say about them and I dropped my scumread of them when they showed me I was wrong.

Wait no, not your analysis of furtive, your analysis of furtive's analysis of me.

[T3]

VOTE: enchant

Enchant is Town. I've never seen Enchant scum hunt so much and stay involved with a game before.

Yeah but Enchant only got involved after Cephrir pushed him for not being involved.

[T3]

Cephrir's reaction to Frogster's deathtunnel does not feel like exasperated town at all

[T3]

So?

Cephrir thinks that Enchant is scum for lurking -> Enchant decides not to lurk and gets towncred for it.

[T3]

I... Need a minute to process this lol

2) Is alchemist a Flavor Leaf alt? They either are or they learned from him. He is exploiting your Town read on CSF and your scum read on Enchant, and until I flipped my read on you he was exploiting my scum read on you.

In what way?

[T3]

It feels like you only scumread CSF because they didn’t agree with you on Cephrir and you’re only scumreading me because I didn’t agree with you on CSF.

Frogster outlined an entire case on you that is completely unrelated to Cephrir like a page before you posted this

[T3]

Okay then.

Enchant, Alchemist says they're not mafia. That gonna make you unvote?

if i see someone to vote instead

Who are your actual scumreads right now?

Not really

Ok. Don’t claim you’re trying to catch scum if you’re not even forming reads.

This push on Enchant seems like Alchemist is caught scum trying to divert attention away by starting a 1v1? Maybe?

[T3]

T3, do you have substantial opinion on PenguinPower?

no.

[T3]

VOTE: Eiralox
I think I'm gonna put my vote here for now.

[T3]

VOTE: Eiralox
I think I'm gonna put my vote here for now.

Ok I'll take the bait... Why

I think it would be best if votes are applied there.

[T3]

This push on Enchant seems like Alchemist is caught scum trying to divert attention away by starting a 1v1? Maybe?

Was this post an actual scumread? Because if it is then this:

VOTE: Eiralox
I think I'm gonna put my vote here for now.

is weird.

~~~~~

I've read through alchemist ISO and it isn't as townie as I remembered. The humblebrag on the scummie nomination in #222 is something I've got in the back of my mind. I think there is a decent chance they're partners. T3's reads have been a bit all over the place. I get it, day 1 is hard, but he's not a noob. His progression on alchemist for example just doesn't make sense only for him to not vote him, unless they're scum together and T3 doesn't want to vote his partner. Alchemist also replied to eiralox's post of T3's messy reads and didn't actually acknowledge this inconsistency.

You’re correct in that my reads have been all over the place, but it’s not like reads aren’t malleable. I townread Alchemist for his past behavior, then I saw something scummy in his current behavior, so I commented on it. I very often get scumread for this exact reason.

[T3]

I’m pretty sure Alchemist is town here

[T3]

VOTE: Enchant

[T3]

VOTE: Eiralox
I think I'm gonna put my vote here for now.

Ok I'll take the bait... Why

I think it would be best if votes are applied there.

VOTE: Enchant

...

That post was made before I had read the rest of the game.

[T3]

Alchemist21 has been executed. He was a

Vanilla Townie

.

Spoiler: Role PM

Vanilla Townie

Welcome, Alchemist21, to Mini Normal 2289!

You are a

Vanilla Townie

.

Abilities:

You have no special abilities.

Win Condition:

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Please confirm by replying with the name of your role.

It is now Night 1. The night deadline is in (expired on 2023-02-13 12:29:27).

The night can end early if all living players agree.

Frogsterking has been killed. He was a

Vanilla Townie

.

Spoiler: Role PM

Vanilla Townie

Welcome, Frogsterking, to Mini Normal 2289!

You are a

Vanilla Townie

.

Abilities:

You have no special abilities.

Win Condition:

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Please confirm by replying with the name of your role.

It is now Day 2.

there goes my townreads

[T3]

How do we feel about NK analysis

It seems pretty straightforward that Frogster was obvtown and got killed

[T3]

i guess im just not that interested in chasing our tails on NK spec that could be wifom when we have plenty of readable content to use instead

Do you not like NK spec in general?

[T3]

VOTE: Eiralox
I really don't like the way they positioned themself around the Alchemist wagon. There was no attempt to read Alchemist, and the only time Eiralox even mentions Alchemist when he was being voted was to say that "we should give Alchemist a chance."

This all happened as Eiralox fluffed the thread and put a vanity vote on Penguin.

[T3]

uhhh i'd go with Enchant?
i think that Cephrir will become significantly more readable now that Frogster is dead, meanwhile Enchant is taking up space. but so is Eiralox.

[T3]

uhhh i'd go with Enchant?
i think that Cephrir will become significantly more readable now that Frogster is dead, meanwhile Enchant is taking up space. but so is Eiralox.

are you having a stroke

HAHAHhahahaha!

just read this!


Your defining feature, lack of Day 1, is lack of space

dimension

or any other attribute valued by the corporeally gifted

so

Interesting, weird times my hombre.

[T3]

uhhh i'd go with Enchant?
i think that Cephrir will become significantly more readable now that Frogster is dead, meanwhile Enchant is taking up space. but so is Eiralox.

HAHAHhahahaha!

just read this!


Your defining feature, lack of Day 1, is lack of space

dimension

or any other attribute valued by the corporeally gifted

so

Interesting, weird times my hombre.

Are you having a stroke

[T3]

Eiralox and I made about the same contribution to the thread yesterday, but Eiralox did it in double the amount of posts as me. Eiralox’s reaction further convinced me that they’re scum. I present my case, Eiralox offers no adequate refutation and instead goes full overreaction OMGUS.

[T3]

This is literally the fastest I have ever seen someone obvscum

[T3]

That is true
But then wtf is this

Get a better vote, or the little hesitation I had on pushing you Day 1, which incidentally saved you after Pengu jumped to Alchemist like a happy little rabbit, is gone!

Like there’s no way town Eiralox genuinely believes that he’ll be able to somehow ‘intimidate’ scum me with a post like this

[T3]

Why I think Eiralox is town? I've modded a scumgame of his somewhat recently, and he fit the profile of a passive/lurky scum player. He feels more spontaneous and relaxed here. I think it's unlikely that he has leveled up his scumgame in such a short amount of time.

I played with town Eiralox and they posted big paragraphs and walls

[T3]

This is the most sus wagon lmao

Yeah not loving the wagon on you.

I think the fact CSF is trying so hard to push Ceph whilst ignoring the enchant wagon actually makes me think the enchant wagon is correct.

I would ask for an enchant lim today.

If we're doing pre-flips, look at T3. Keeping their hands clean at the moment but motioning to vote Enchant at the same time. That makes me think Cephrir/T3 is correct.

I was explicitly asked whether I scumread Enchant or Cephrir more, and I said that I scumread Enchant more. I was

not

motioning to vote Enchant.

[T3]

If I had voluntarily said that I want to vote Enchant but I still continued to push Eiralox, that would be AI. But because I was asked a question about whether I scumread Enchant or Cephrir more, it’s NAI.

[T3]

This is the most sus wagon lmao

Yeah not loving the wagon on you.

I think the fact CSF is trying so hard to push Ceph whilst ignoring the enchant wagon actually makes me think the enchant wagon is correct.

I would ask for an enchant lim today.

If we're doing pre-flips, look at T3. Keeping their hands clean at the moment but motioning to vote Enchant at the same time. That makes me think Cephrir/T3 is correct.

I was explicitly asked whether I scumread Enchant or Cephrir more, and I said that I scumread Enchant more. I was

not

motioning to vote Enchant.

Are you staying on Eiralox all day then

We are not even 24 hours into the day. This is disingenuous.

[T3]

This is getting into semantics.
I think that more discussion today would be productive.

[T3]

And what you want to discuss

i have no idea but i do want to hear more from CSF and Dionysus

[T3]

And what you want to discuss

i have no idea but i do want to hear more from CSF and Dionysus

I have a question for you if you have nothing to discuss.

Did you use the word disingenuous because Penguin used the word disingenuous?

No? I thought it was a common mafia term for scum pretending to not know stuff

[T3]

Alternatively phrased, who was more disingenuous - Furtive or CSF? And, considering two synonyms for disingenuous are deceitful and dishonest, do you think we should be looking to vote one of these two players for their alleged distortion of the facts?

As for furtive, I think our interaction is fairly minor and I’m not putting much weight into it. I think that Penguin’s point about CSF is more along the lines of TMI than being disingenuous. Either way, we have bigger fish to fry.

[T3]

eiralox continues to double down...

[T3]

Reads changing from one post to the next is fine, but there should be a consistent thread that you can follow to make sense of the person's thought process. T3's reads have been... well not that.

what do you think about my content today?
also, can you point to some specific examples. i know there's the alchemist one but i think i already explained that.

[T3]

Reads changing from one post to the next is fine, but there should be a consistent thread that you can follow to make sense of the person's thought process. T3's reads have been... well not that.

what do you think about my content today?
also, can you point to some specific examples. i know there's the alchemist one but i think i already explained that.

@Dionysus

[T3]

Dionysus scumread my read progression on Alchemist. My read progression was:
Solid townread early Day 1
Frogster 1v1’s Alchemist, I notice scummy behavior in Alchemist too
Alchemist responds to my points
I decide to vote Eiralox
It is at this point that Dionysus scumreads me for being inconsistent

He immediately jumps to the conclusion that I’m scum with Alchemist looking to avoid his wagon.

[T3]

Dionysus assumes that because I observe scummy behavior in someone, that automatically means I scumread them.

[T3]

np

[T3]

i will sap every single drop of productive discussion from today before i vote enchant

[T3]

i will sap every single drop of productive discussion from today before i vote enchant

why are you so strongly townreading enchant?

i am not

[T3]

...then why the hyperbole about voting enchant?

because i have reads that i want to sort before enchant is flipped

[T3]

intent to e-1 enchant

[T3]

wait never mind i completely did not notice the claim

[T3]

uhhh i'm happy with my vote where it is right now

[T3]

Yeah that won't fly by me. At this point you're a camper with little to no game presence, no actual input or analysis. You offer less than Dionysus or Brickwall.

oh no, how dare i not make a post in the past 5 pages (((

[T3]

Dionysus - i dislike that he only tried to reevaluate his read on me after i asked him what he thought of my content today. that doesn't show a town mindset
Not_Mafia - meh
Enchant - meh, but i don't want to lim him because he claimed pr
Eiralox - they are not being rational at all and that's *concerning* but i don't really know if they have a scum agenda? i'll have to reread. either way, i don't think leaving my vote on them is productive
Cat Scratch Fever - no idea. all of her content has kinda flown past my head despite her high post count.
PenguinPower - leaning town. his conteinued support of an enchant wagon seems towny
Brickwalll - i was townreading his content from yesterday, i thought his spat with eira was towny and i'm still townreading him
furtiveglance - uhhh lean town?
VOTE: Dionysus

[T3]

T3, you have no presence, less than Dionysus and Brickwall

wait
dionysus, brickwall, and i have the lowest postcounts in the game
but we've definitely had more in thread presence than someone like penguinpower, enchant, std, or nm
which shows that you were just looking at postcounts in order to shade me
this reeks
VOTE: eiralox

[T3]

i think penguinpower has had quite a bit of thread presence actually

that is true but his content is severely lacking

[T3]

Cat Scratch Fever has been killed. She was a Vanilla Townie.

weird kill but i'll take it

[T3]

Should we massclaim

enchant what's your result?

[T3]

Should we massclaim

enchant what's your result?

That's reason why ask massclaim.

i want your result before we massclaim

[T3]

If more than half insist then ok

to me, it seems like you are scum and you backed yourself into a hole with your neapolitan claim. now you don't want to claim your result because you would risk having an incorrect result on a town PR. so you want everyone to massclaim first so that your result can't be challenged.

[T3]

ok cool now we can massclaim

[T3]

Order of massclaim?:

Brickwalll
Not_Mafia
Save The Dragons
T3
Eiralox
PenguinPower
Cephrir
furtiveglance

[T3]

How many PRs are there usually in Mini Normals? NM has claimed one, and Dionysus was

i have never played a 13 player normal without exactly 3 or 4 pr's

i did not take NM's claim to be serious

[T3]

My claim was serious

So, you hardclaim PR, correct?

[T3]

Must I claim?

VOTE: Brickwalll
yeah, you should definitely claim here

[T3]

Must I claim?

VOTE: Brickwalll
yeah, you should definitely claim here

I’m also town

what's your role?

[T3]

Brickwall/Dionysus/Enchant/NM makes 4 PR, is that too many?

that's the right number of pr's
except there are actually 2 more confirmable town pr's outside of this list, so there are 2 scum in Brickwall/Enchant/NM.

[T3]

i have never seen a mini normal with more than 4 pr's

[T3]

Brickwall/Dionysus/Enchant/NM makes 4 PR, is that too many?

that's the right number of pr's
except there are actually 2 more confirmable town pr's outside of this list, so there are 2 scum in Brickwall/Enchant/NM.

Are you about to claim Masons

i am in fact a mason

[T3]

i have never seen a mini normal with more than 4 pr's

U have much to see.

oh yeah i played in two very cursed Datisi games a while ago. although i highly doubt that this game is very complicated based on the roles that flipped.

[T3]

I’m the town shrink. Although CSF ended up dead after I checked them so not a very good shrink

is that what your role is called?

[T3]

I’m the town shrink. Although CSF ended up dead after I checked them so not a very good shrink

what's your n1 result?

[T3]

Confirmed town:

T3 - Mason
Save The Dragons - Mason

PR claims (2 scum in here):

Not_Mafia - Unidentified PR
Enchant - Neapolitan
Brickwalll - Psychologist

VT claims/Unclaimed (1 scum in here):

Cephrir
Eiralox
Firebringer
furtiveglance

[T3]

I’m the town shrink. Although CSF ended up dead after I checked them so not a very good shrink

what's your n1 result?

Activated N2

is that what your modifier is called?

[T3]

Not_Mafia (1): Eiralox
furtiveglance (1): Save The Dragons
Brickwalll (1): T3
T3 (1): Brickwalll

Not Voting (5): Not_Mafia, Enchant, Cephrir, PenguinPower, furtiveglance

gonna hipfire the scum team in this game:
Eiralox, Cephrir, Furtive.

i love having 6 pr's in my mini normal

[T3]

i dunno T3, an even night psychologist is a pretty weak role lol

same with a neopolitan (who only gave 1 result, shouldn't there be another?)

Yeah but if all the PR claims are true than there are more PR’s than VT’s.

[T3]

Yup

what's your full role?

[T3]

They’re dropping like flies

[T3]

that is probably true
at the same time, i want nm to claim and for the pace to pick up

[T3]

i think the brickwall's claim is the most likely to be fake

[T3]

flailing

[T3]

FYPOV:
if we lim std today then i'm confirmed town
either i or enchant dies in the night
you get limmed tomorrow
town loses

[T3]

or we lim you today, i die in the night (probably), and town is in ELO

[T3]

n_m (if town) has more utility than brickwalll

[T3]

The balance between ‘obscure’ roles and ‘not obscure’ roles has been very tilted towards the obscure side in recent times. Mods have tried pushing the boundaries of normality, so you almost never see a Cop or Doctor without significant modifications.

[T3]

All the PR claims can’t be true. Otherwise the setup would have very likely been denied by the reviewers. This is unless scum have some insane powers.

[T3]

The balance between ‘obscure’ roles and ‘not obscure’ roles has been very tilted towards the obscure side in recent times. Mods have tried pushing the boundaries of normality, so you almost never see a Cop or Doctor without significant modifications.

I prefer open setups personally. Normal games focus too much on setup spec and then postgame everyone yells at the mod about the setup.

Haha, yeah. My favorite part of mafia is fakeclaiming, whether town or scum, and you can’t really do that in open setups. I don’t think I’ve played an Open in a year or so.

[T3]

All the PR claims can’t be true. Otherwise the setup would have very likely been denied by the reviewers. This is unless scum have some insane powers.

Yeah. I think 4-5 are most likely. Is your reason for thinking 2 claims are fake purely mech-based or reads-based as well?

Mostly mech, but I find it hard to believe that NM and Enchant are both town.

[T3]

std died and not me which probably suggests that i had bad reads?

[T3]

i was about to pop into the thread and vote cephrir smh

ggwp