Mini 2287: AB:LoAF (Postgame)

[Herta]

Hey I drew Miller so there's that.

VOTE: TemporalLich

[Herta]

Hey I drew Miller so there's that.

VOTE: TemporalLich

Does it tell you what type of miller you are?

It does, yes.

[Herta]

Actually that''s useful info that I'll share later.

[Herta]

Lists of Roles and Alignments Included

Roles

from Posts 0 through Post 251.

1.

True Groupscum

#1 through 13

2.

Benign Groupscum

#1 through 10

3.

Solo Third Party

#1 through 7

4.

Benign Third Party

#1 through 7

What does benign mean? No nightkill? No win stealing?

[Herta]

Cool.

[Herta]

On a semi-related note, I can't think of a super obvious reason for why Herta shouldn't full claim, I don't think not knowing the exact flavour of miller will cause scum to slip or anything like that.

This is fair. There's nothing scum gains here other than a heads up. It's a universal miller which means that my check returns the smallest faction that exists at the beginning of the game. Which I think will be useful to learn. I don't know what that faction is so I'm curious myself. So if there's a cop with a shot they don't have a good idea about, take it on me.

[Herta]

Marashu doesn't seem scum

VOTE: Kokichi Oma

starting to see a scummy mindset again

pedit: your reaction test doesn't faze me

What's the scummy mindset you're seeing?

Re: marashu I think the massclaiming bit and having reasons for it seem to come from town, so I agree with you and I guess I'm townreading both you and marashu now

I have a question. I'm sorry if this is too much potatoes but I don't wanna read the setup, it makes my brain cry, but I still wanna know what sort of game we're probably playing here. multiple factions? Is there even groupscum? Is it one of those games with three different scum factions and then you can't read anyone cause everyone is kinda towny throughout?

This post seems scummy to me.

[Herta]

Millers ave to claim right away. its the way it works

My question (maybe just out of curiosity) is why would anyone choose to be miller

like whats, the other option that they actually discarded that was worse. That's why I actually have some considerations about believing the miller claim

Part of the pm was that I had to choose the Miller role.

[Herta]

Marashu doesn't seem scum

VOTE: Kokichi Oma

starting to see a scummy mindset again

pedit: your reaction test doesn't faze me

What's the scummy mindset you're seeing?

Re: marashu I think the massclaiming bit and having reasons for it seem to come from town, so I agree with you and I guess I'm townreading both you and marashu now

I have a question. I'm sorry if this is too much potatoes but I don't wanna read the setup, it makes my brain cry, but I still wanna know what sort of game we're probably playing here. multiple factions? Is there even groupscum? Is it one of those games with three different scum factions and then you can't read anyone cause everyone is kinda towny throughout?

This post seems scummy to me.

I'm forcing things so it might feel scummy yes

Why is it scummy though?

The part where you're asking what kind of set up we're in. It comes off as disingenuous. I can't place it. It just does.

[Herta]

The part where you're asking what kind of set up we're in. It comes off as disingenuous. I can't place it. It just does.

I don't really get it, but since you can't place it, and quite frankly I expect that everything I post in every game to be scumread for random reasons by someone, I guess there isn't much I can do about it. But still, I'm gonna force something out of this. Maybe I can get a read on you.

What part of it do you think is disingenuous? Do you think I read any of the setup, for instance? Or that maybe it's a LAMIST approach, to ask people instead of reading setup if I care about it? I think maybe you can elaborate on this further, and I can understand where you're coming from, and maybe you can understand me better and good things can happen.

The part where you just happen to stumble on our setup:

¤ The full rolelist can be found here.
Lists of Roles and Alignments Included

Roles
from Posts 0 through Post 251.
1. True Groupscum
#1 through 13
2. Benign Groupscum
#1 through 10
3. Solo Third Party
#1 through 7
4. Benign Third Party
#1 through 7

That seems convenient maybe. O rsomehting like that. I'm not grabbing the right word.

[Herta]

Problem is I don't know what you accomplish by faking it.

[Herta]

Oh wow we're missing the pronoun field.

[Herta]

I don't see what you find interesting.

I don't understand that sentence.

[Herta]

Oh I agree. It just felt scummy to me as I read it.

[Herta]

I could've picked it out of the abloaf thread and hoped no one actually got it.

[Herta]

On a semi-related note, I can't think of a super obvious reason for why Herta shouldn't full claim, I don't think not knowing the exact flavour of miller will cause scum to slip or anything like that.

This is fair. There's nothing scum gains here other than a heads up. It's a universal miller which means that my check returns the smallest faction that exists at the beginning of the game. Which I think will be useful to learn. I don't know what that faction is so I'm curious myself. So if there's a cop with a shot they don't have a good idea about, take it on me.

But, like, cops have names based on groupscum present, just like millers (if I'm understanding the game's flavour correctly). So if you are saying your role is actually Miller, that narrows it down to Conspirators or Guardians (and your role explicitly says that if you are a miller for Conspirators you would show up as a vanilla townie).

That said...

I could've picked it out of the abloaf thread and hoped no one actually got it.

I think this is just as likely (especially since I don't think there's anything preventing multiples of the same role rolling? But I'm not sure). Roughly 10% chance of anyone getting this role (26 picks out of 252) vs the 1 in 13 of Conspirators being the groupscum in this game. I don't think it's unreasonable to say one of these is true, but a must-pick role being present at all in the list is convenient. For the record, I do think claiming miller right away is the right choice (others may disagree), but I'm not a fan of how slow getting any other info out of you was.

In either case, if we see two alignments outside of {Conspirators, Guardians} we should eliminate Herta IMO.

@Temporal, mind expanding a bit on your KittyTacky read? Also on how your read on me changed from 78 to 133?

I return vanilla [smallest groupscum faction at the beginning of the game]. It says nothing about conspirators or guardians or any other faction other than town of course. Walk me through this like I'm 5, please.

According to the setup we have 4 factions, so I don't know why you're speculating on how many there are.

I also don't know what you mean by slow to get information out of me. I'm not on a timetable. And even if I were, what difference does/did it make?

[Herta]

I return vanilla [smallest groupscum faction at the beginning of the game]. It says nothing about conspirators or guardians or any other faction other than town of course. Walk me through this like I'm 5, please.

According to the setup we have 4 factions, so I don't know why you're speculating on how many there are.

I also don't know what you mean by slow to get information out of me. I'm not on a timetable. And even if I were, what difference does/did it make?

I got 3 factions and not 4 from the following:

1. The moderator rolls 1d4. This corresponds to one of the 4 faction lists below.
2. The moderator rolls a random number from 1 to the number of entries in the corresponding list to determine what is present in the game.
3. The moderator rolls an additional number on the True Groupscum list.

One faction from any of the lists. One faction from True Groupscum. Town. Those are the three factions.

As I said, I might be misunderstanding how flavour works. My understanding was that 'Miller', 'Cop', 'Mason', etc would be changed to match whichever faction it is reflecting/investigating/excluding. For example, in the Dark Creatures entry, Miller is listed as 'Abyssal'. So my expectation is that your card would read Universal Must-Pick Abyssal. So either I'm wrong about how the role flavourings work (which, I'll be honest, is definitely a possibility), or we're in a setup where you would return as a Guardian/Conspirator (since those are the only two groupscum that would have Miller as Miller), or you're antitown who wanted to claim miller early but didn't know about miller flavour, and it's this last possibility that has me so fixated on sorting your claim.

I guess I didn't understand that the factions listed weren't the factions in the game. That makes sense.

I don't think you're right about the flavor, but I now understand where you're coming from. My card identifies me as Miller but says it will return the smallest faction name.

So I think you're right about

In either case, if we see two alignments outside of {Conspirators, Guardians} we should eliminate Herta IMO.

But I'm not sure. I need to figure out whether you're right about those two factions being the only non-Town, and you probably are.

[Herta]

I think your understanding of most of the Miller roles is correct, but Herta's role just so happens to be an exception - the official name
of the role is "Universal Miller", the role just investigates
as e.g. Dark Creature to relevant Cops, and Vanilla to relevant Rolecops. If it helps, think of the Role as being named "Universally Suspicious Person" rather than "Universal Miller".

That could be I guess. I don't know.

[Herta]

I don't think you're right about the flavor, but I now understand where you're coming from. My card identifies me as Miller but says it will return the smallest faction name.

Actually it says Vanilla of the smallest faction.

[Herta]

VOTE: Fuyuhiko Kuzuryu

Let's play mafia.

[Herta]

Wait I'm dumb lol, I literally asked Meg yesterday? the day before? I believe my interpretation of how Universal Miller works is the correct one.

Why are you voting Fuyuhiko, Herta?

A combination of no content and a stuck game that needs to move on.

[Herta]

Join me as we wagon someone for little reason.

[Herta]

Spicy take.

[Herta]

I'm guessing you haven't played with not mafia in the past couple of years.

[Herta]

Also yay, first post on my birthday!!

Happy Birthday, Drew. You, FDR, Phil Collins and Vanessa Redgrave.

[Herta]

I'm guessing you haven't played with not mafia in the past couple of years.

Why does that matter.

Also, Kokichi seems pretty cool rn.

No one is setting up NM for anything but a lolhammer

[Herta]

I think Aisa is likely town. The last time I played with her I picked up scum vibes early, and I don't sense that here. Not conclusive but close anyway.

[Herta]

Temporal Lich seems, idk, confused maybe. I lean town on that confusion.

[Herta]

You can't quote private communications wtf.

It's not.

[Herta]

So did we!

[Herta]

I'm not as sure that Temporal Lich is town as others are that he's scum. I'm not super committed to that read. I'll hammer if NM doesn't. A counter wagon would be nice.

VOTE: yume

[Herta]

I am townreading Doctor Drew because Doctor Drew has a town mindset... 228 is a good example.

Enchant is very slightly towny still.

and yeah I picked meta-neighbor because neighbor is a quite useful role.

I would still want to elim Kokichi because that would make D2's elim easy and also be very likely to hit scum (though if Kokichi flips town, it actually might be enough to clear Kyoko). Yume would be okay but Day 2 would not be easy as Yume doesn't have any associatives or anti-associatives.

I don't disagree re Yume.

I didn't follow your cases on Kokichi/Kyoko all that well.

I don't really understand the importance of associatives in this game, at least at this point, when we don't know the number of factions and what they are/how big they are.

[Herta]

I don't really understand the importance of associatives in this game, at least at this point, when we don't know the number of factions and what they are/how big they are.

You're right in that we don't know how big they are, but we. do. know. how. many. factions. there. are.

Herta gettin schooled again. Oops.

[Herta]

Yume, KittyTacky and maybe Fuyuhiko still are all good votes.

[Herta]

I'm inclined to trust marashu here, and he isn't voting, so I'll wait.

[Herta]

I'm inclined to trust marashu here, and he isn't voting, so I'll wait.

Who do you scumread?

Yume, KittyTacky and maybe Fuyuhiko still are all good votes.

You?

[Herta]

While I think yume and kittytacky would be fine, kittytacky seems more scummy btw, I am interested in sorting Fuyuhiko Kuzuryu. They pinged me wrong beginning of the game, but no one seemed to see what I did (and I can't remember what it was now) after I voted them.

[Herta]

Ya we can do that.

VOTE: kittytacky

[Herta]

I’m not opposed to a KT wagon but that’s mainly because aside from TL I have basically no suspects. That may stem from not having read this whole thing though.

This has been a very slow Day 1. There's not a whole lot there to read. It shouldn't take more than 15-20 minutes.

[Herta]

VOTE: temporal lich

I have no idea but really I just want something to happen.

[Herta]

I"m still not following your case on kyoko.

[Herta]

Oh yeah. I forgot to E-1.

[Herta]

Then shouldn't we be voting Drew?

[Herta]

What if you two are scum tho

[Herta]

Lemme see your license to hammer.

[Herta]

NM is a troll and so is Enchant.

A coordinated troll like that though?

Troll doesnt think coordination. Troll sees the fake guilty and says wouldnt it br funny if...

[Herta]

Mod eating up real estate.

[Herta]

I don’t believe it’s a post restriction, I think she’s trying to play around a presumed action that I did not take.

Huh

[Herta]

I legitimately submitted no action last night.

Was there a reason for this?

[Herta]

I legitimately submitted no action last night.

Was there a reason for this?

I saw it was hailing?

That could have broke or
Marashu could have been lying.

To Group: Was there anyone else who didn't submit?

[Herta]

Oh yeah. I forgot about that.

Egg meet face.

[Herta]

I legitimately submitted no action last night.

Was there a reason for this?

I saw it was hailing?

That could have broke or
Marashu could have been lying.

To Group: Was there anyone else who didn't submit?

This seems unnecessary to ask right now. That would give away our possible investigative PRs

Yeah i hadnt thought it through before asking that.

[Herta]

I don’t believe it’s a post restriction, I think she’s trying to play around a presumed action that I did not take.

Huh

Huh what.

what about it was scum motivated and what could I gain from it?

What

[Herta]

Why are you asking me though?

[Herta]

It was Fuyuhikos question, and i was expressing that i didnt understand it.

[Herta]

VOTE: drew

[Herta]

Then shouldn't we be voting Drew?

Why so quick to apparently believe the guilty? And why did you wait until my wagon had some momentum before you voted?

Where do you get that I believed it?

I'm not voting you off of those "guilties."

[Herta]

Well I wasn't sure how two players could have straight guilties, something that I don't know that I've seen for a long time, let alone guilties when everyone was roleblocked. It wasn't until after I posted that I figured they were trolling.

[Herta]

I got me some faith, and it is bad. Bad bad bad faith.

[Herta]

I think Aisa and Herta have the worst reactions but I’m skeptical of others as well.

Remind me of my reaction.

[Herta]

It was Fuyuhikos question, and i was expressing that i didnt understand it.

It wasn’t a question, it was a declaration.

Yes, you're right. That doesn't change the thought though.

[Herta]

I think Aisa and Herta have the worst reactions but I’m skeptical of others as well.

Remind me of my reaction.

Your reaction was to try and gaslight me while also fishing for more roles.

Yes that was what I was doing.

[Herta]

Oh I remember now.

[Herta]

I think I'll trust enchant, herta and marashu

And aisa

[Herta]

I think I'll trust enchant, herta and marashu

And aisa

you agree with my other townreads then? I can't really townread aisa, could you elaborate?

It's a meta read so it won't be much help to you.

[Herta]

I am there to needle you if you step out of line again.

how was my conduct earlier "out of line"?

Thought my joking tone was obvious, was making reference to when you said I needled you before(which I took in a joking way btw)

I think I'll trust enchant, herta and marashu

And aisa

you agree with my other townreads then? I can't really townread aisa, could you elaborate?

It's a meta read so it won't be much help to you.

This is the thing Herta, you keep sorting people but when asked for reasons you response is 'Oh I have reasons......' and then walk away like a super villain.

Like the person who seemingly town reads you the most is asking why they should town read someone they just voted, like you are just hoping they will blindly follow.

VOTE: Aisa

I'm not sure who else you're referring to but re aisa the last game we played together she beat me as scum in elo. I knew she was scum early that game and called her out on it early. I just didn't push like i should have. Or maybe that was tje game before tje last. Anyway ive played with town her recently, and im picking up none of the scumminess. The read is more the absence of scumminess than anything townie. Probably nothing out of her scum range. Also i guess she seems to be solving. Idk. Maybe more null would be a better read.

Also as im thinking about it I dont expressly read enchant as town either as ive seen him helpful with mech before and not town.

Who else?

Fukyoko is so stern and is obv parsing everything. They appear to have a process and i town read them.

Who else did i give a blind read to?

[Herta]

I wish i could figure out how to quote a sentence.

I do like this from Drew:

This is the thing Herta, you keep sorting people but when asked for reasons you response is 'Oh I have reasons......' and then walk away like a super villain.

It made me laugh.

[Herta]

Did KT take that role as scum?

How would he know that he would be scum?

[Herta]

Really that's a question to help hone thoughts.

[Herta]

Oh I guess it does. It's been so long since I looked at it. I thought we picked blind but I guess not.

[Herta]

Gimli not voting for Drew gives me pause.

[Herta]

Marashu -- Town
Aisa -- Town lean
KittyTacky -- scum lean
Not_Mafia -- not_mafia
Gimli -- town lean
Kyoko Kirigiri -- taking at word not a threat, don't see why not
Kokichi Oma -- null
Fuyuhiko Kuzuryu -- town lean
Enchant -- enchant
Doctor Drew -- scum lean

If Kyoko is a non-threat 3P then they're lone wolf? If so then other scum reads must be partnered. I need to think whether it makes sense that KT and Drew are partnered.

One player I'm absolutely not getting is Kokichi.

[Herta]

I don't like having the fate of the game in my hands so I'd rather sheep people I think are town.

This feels weak
Why don’t you have faith in your reads?

Because I think I am a bad player and also I am finding it a bit hard to read people this time around.

What do you think is causing this?

[Herta]

There's one more hail shot left, right? We essentially have 2 lims, second being my shot.

What if we vote with HURT: these tags for my shot?

HURT: Not_Mafia

[Herta]

Actually I don't know that I like KItty not having any agency there.

[Herta]

Yes that is correct, Drew. There is a definite difference in how I'm approaching this. That game was a lot easier to grasp.

____<<<

Kokichi, I have nothing to offer you on that. I dont know why you are blank to me. I earlier had typed out that reading your posts was like looking into a void, but i thought it sounded insulting and i didnt want to sound like that. But thats what it feels like to me.

And Drew both of us really needed to solve just two people, and it was 90% apparent how it was going to resolve. It was just an easier game, and protecting against that 10% was a luxury that could be had.

[Herta]

Okay

[Herta]

So where do we go from here?

[Herta]

You keep throwing this he's vague read down. I dont think ive been evasive or anything. It just seems like a lot of shade over and over again without any real push or even a vote behind it.

[Herta]

Excellent.

[Herta]

Well I do what I can.

[Herta]

Kokichi, I have nothing to offer you on that. I dont know why you are blank to me. I earlier had typed out that reading your posts was like looking into a void, but i thought it sounded insulting and i didnt want to sound like that. But thats what it feels like to me.

This kinda seems like a cop out, what do you think of my scumreads so far. I stated you, Drew, Aisa, Gimli were the postings I didn't like today.

I think you're wrong about aisa and gimli.

[Herta]

Kokichi, I have nothing to offer you on that. I dont know why you are blank to me. I earlier had typed out that reading your posts was like looking into a void, but i thought it sounded insulting and i didnt want to sound like that. But thats what it feels like to me.

This kinda seems like a cop out, what do you think of my scumreads so far. I stated you, Drew, Aisa, Gimli were the postings I didn't like today.

I think you're wrong about aisa and gimli.

Why do you think I'm wrong about those two?

Because I don't think they're town? I know you're asking what I think about why you believe they're scum, but I don't know, so you're going to have to tell me or point me to where you've explained those reads.

[Herta]

No, I'm asking why you think they are town. Not for you to prove me wrong. You've kind have done little explaining so far in the game.

Maybe you missed these:

I think Aisa is likely town. The last time I played with her I picked up scum vibes early, and I don't sense that here. Not conclusive but close anyway.

I'm not sure who else you're referring to but re aisa the last game we played together she beat me as scum in elo. I knew she was scum early that game and called her out on it early. I just didn't push like i should have. Or maybe that was tje game before tje last. Anyway ive played with town her recently, and im picking up none of the scumminess. The read is more the absence of scumminess than anything townie. Probably nothing out of her scum range. Also i guess she seems to be solving. Idk. Maybe more null would be a better read.

As for gimi I just kind of town read him that's all. So tone/vibes I guess. It's not super strong, but it's about the same level as the aisa read.

[Herta]

That doesn't tell you why you're wrong, which is what you initially asked. It just tells you how I got to where I am, which is your most recent question.

[Herta]

Have you specced this game out Enchant?

[Herta]

I am trying to suss what this difference in play means, two games played with you basically back to back, with a clear difference.

One you were town.

Anyone else have meta on Herta? Can anyone else back this up?

Herta is LHF as town, last time I played with them in viewtopic.php?t=90137

I'd bet they're town here too. Just a Day Miller.

What is a day miller

[Herta]

Yeah that's me.

[Herta]

Counter wagon good.

[Herta]

Using hail again seems to me not a good play. This game lacks information, and part of that is because no one was able to do anything last night. So we're going to end up with two dead townies probably and no more information than we have today except for that. And unless those two players have a lot of associations, we're going essentially on the same information tomorrow as we have today. And that puts us that much closer to elo, if not in elo, and that's that.

Does that make any sense?

As for an alternative, I don't have one. I was just thinking about hail today.

[Herta]

Is anyone else interested in Fuyuhiko? That's the slot I most want right now. Could people explain why they actually townread that slot?

My read is very weak, just based on their almost angry reviews and seeming thoroughness.

[Herta]

NM, full claim your role. or I either shoot you or vote you. Now.

You say that like it's going to happen.

[Herta]

The alternative I guess is not to pull that trigger and let the night play out.

There were two wagons at the time, Drew and you. I think counterwagons in the face of uncertainty are usually good. It's helpful to see where people vote. They're forced to make a decision.

[Herta]

The problem with Marashu not using his power is that he likely dies tonight and his other shot with him.

[Herta]

I really dislike both Fuyuhiko and Gimli here.

It would seem Kyoko could be vigged? We can't have her in elo if she is what she says she is and confirming herself doesn't change that.

[Herta]

@herta: have you read my posts about kuzu's progression on Kyoko, from defending her all d1 to openvoting her on d2? and never expanding on that scumread because kyoko started to roleplay being targeted with his ability so he started to push her for it (then dropped it).

I really dislike, as in I don't like the tone of either of you.

Townies in general aren't all that consistent, so I don't think progression argument is all that alignment indicative. I didn't see anything wrong with what went down with kyoko.

I think this is a town fight really.

[Herta]

Using hail again seems to me not a good play.

In the words of TL 'scum mindset'

If you think proceeding without information is good for town, then sure.

[Herta]

I wanted her to commit to a read because 'dislike' doesn't mean anything. I wanted her to say what she meant. she gave me the worst possible answer. can't you see that?

When you're calling each other fuckers, yes, I dislike that tone immensely. There's no place for it here.

[Herta]

Swearing is fine. I just didn't like the direction that was taking.

[Herta]

I believe the thinking is that Kyoko admits that there's another 3p, but in reality that has to be a partner with Kyoko, and that they have a PT. So Kyoko is lying about the full extent of her claim. I think there's more to it, but that's all I can follow for now.

[Herta]

I'm town. I don't know what to tell you. You all really should be exploring worlds where that is the reality. And I don't have a useful role so I can be vanilliaized easily.

[Herta]

Although I don't know about the utility of that. I don't really follow the parity cop thing.

I'm afraid it's going to be elo tomorrow, and town is not in control here.

I still think hail is a bad idea and we should let people use their powers to solve this.

[Herta]

UNVOTE:

In case aisa's vc is wrong.

[Herta]

I think kitty tacky.

VOTE: kittytacky

[Herta]

DGB in one of The Baker's games.

And she was right.

[Herta]

I dont think anyone believed it, right.

[Herta]

NM cost me a game a few weeks ago with something similar. We were both town.