HMS Mutiny [Game Over]

[furtiveglance]

5.03

Votecount 5.03

Elements (1):

Eiralox.

Not Voting (6):

Nancy Drew 39, Elements, Bellaphant, Radical Rat, Flea The Magician, Malakittens.

With 7 players alive, it takes 4 to eliminate someone.

Day 5 ends in (expired on 2023-02-18 10:00:00).

Mod Notes

• Combined Mod ISO
  
• No one voted since the last VC but
  free pagetop

[Radical Rat]

Spoiler:

I don't really have the attention span to be digging through and organizing ISOs in a game this length, so I'll just be summarizing for the cases, but if you have doubts, I encourage you to look through them yourself.

Eiralox: Suspicious since D1. Didn't like him floating the idea of a no-lim, has been consistently pushing Town for what I see as disingenuous reasoning, especially egregious with StD, has been trying to eliminate Elements ever since they claimed, treating it as a confirmed fact with the only evidence being the possibility of deception rather than any actual inconsistencies, and a hard chainsaw on me after I caught Malakittens lying. Also hard defended Enchant, who I will admit also thought was Town, but on top of everything else, not a great look. Refusal to engage today, and voting immediately, isn't helping my opinion.

Malakittens: I covered this better yesterday, but. A standard alignment Miller is implausible given the lack of any alignment investigatives in the game. If she's a Miller variant that interacts with the investigatives we DO have, Elements' result is impossible, as she should have been treated as Vanilla. She claims her role PM does not expand on what "Miller" means, which contradicts both basic accessibility design, and all of the flipped role PMs so far. And even allowing for the possibility of her having a role PM that doesn't explain anything, she presented it as though she did have information she thought scum shouldn't know, then later claimed no information existed at all: a clear contradiction.

Elements: Known to be a visiting role, and the claim of Vanilla Parity Cop isn't possible to prove 100%. Claims could have been partially based on Enchant's actual results combined with in-thread claims, but there were no inconsistencies until Mala/Gimli. Survived longer than expected of a claimed PR, and without being blocked until today. If the last surviving scum is the Roleblocker, she is overwhelmingly likely to be it.

KJ: Has been a driving force behind every mislim in the game, weird fixation on the "double soft inno" thing, 180 read flip on me to chainsaw for Malakittens, extremely thick ATE, reckless ELo voting, and while a lot of that is a personality thing... PoE gets real thin here and you make the most sense to be aligned with Eira/Mala.

Yes because we are in fact double soft inno’d and I am absolutely telling the truth about that. We have a theory that scum pretty doesn’t target you if you’re 100% right or wrong. Our theory is you’re probably wrong on Elements but right only part of your solve is right because if you’re totally offbase, why would scum bother with you but if you’re totally right, scum wouldn’t likely want to confirm, so I think you may possibly be partially right. Joker of course still has some paranoia that you could still be scum and no nk but I don’t think so. What part? We’re still trying to figure that out. But you really need to explain to me why Mala vigbusses Enchant because that’s kind of a biggie.

~Harley

My problem with the "double soft inno" thing is that neither being vanilla nor not committing a kill one night make you inno. They do decrease the raw statistical likelihood of you being scum, and I'm fine with that being brought up to defend yourself, but when every single time anyone says anything about you you feel the need to remind everyone you have a "double soft inno," it just comes off as annoying and LAMISTy. Frankly, it reminds me a lot of your behavior around MMR's guilty on you in Cosmos.

As I covered yesterday, the best way to make any of this make sense is if Mala's a traitor and did not know Enchant was scum. It explains the miller claim, and the kill, and traitor is a natural thing to slot into Enchant's redacted information. It is also possible that it was just a galaxy brain play, and if it was... well, it's working.

I don't really have the attention span to be digging through and organizing ISOs in a game this length, so I'll just be summarizing for the cases, but if you have doubts, I encourage you to look through them yourself.

Eiralox: Suspicious since D1. Didn't like him floating the idea of a no-lim, has been consistently pushing Town for what I see as disingenuous reasoning, especially egregious with StD, has been trying to eliminate Elements ever since they claimed, treating it as a confirmed fact with the only evidence being the possibility of deception rather than any actual inconsistencies, and a hard chainsaw on me after I caught Malakittens lying. Also hard defended Enchant, who I will admit also thought was Town, but on top of everything else, not a great look. Refusal to engage today, and voting immediately, isn't helping my opinion.

Malakittens: I covered this better yesterday, but. A standard alignment Miller is implausible given the lack of any alignment investigatives in the game. If she's a Miller variant that interacts with the investigatives we DO have, Elements' result is impossible, as she should have been treated as Vanilla. She claims her role PM does not expand on what "Miller" means, which contradicts both basic accessibility design, and all of the flipped role PMs so far. And even allowing for the possibility of her having a role PM that doesn't explain anything, she presented it as though she did have information she thought scum shouldn't know, then later claimed no information existed at all: a clear contradiction.

Elements: Known to be a visiting role, and the claim of Vanilla Parity Cop isn't possible to prove 100%. Claims could have been partially based on Enchant's actual results combined with in-thread claims, but there were no inconsistencies until Mala/Gimli. Survived longer than expected of a claimed PR, and without being blocked until today. If the last surviving scum is the Roleblocker, she is overwhelmingly likely to be it.

KJ: Has been a driving force behind every mislim in the game, weird fixation on the "double soft inno" thing, 180 read flip on me to chainsaw for Malakittens, extremely thick ATE, reckless ELo voting, and while a lot of that is a personality thing... PoE gets real thin here and you make the most sense to be aligned with Eira/Mala.

The less amount of information that scum has the better. Can we just move on?

Unless you are telling me that I’m scum and enchant bussed me by fishing for my role.

So, to be 100% clear, all it says is that "you are a miller" with no elaboration on what that means?

Yes

I'll let the asshole thing slide since it was apparently influenced by outside forces, and I think that's mostly reasonable.

But these two posts should not exist in the same universe, EVEN IF we allow the possibility of a Role PM that doesn't explain the role.

The first one implies that information exists, otherwise there'd be nothing to hide from scum, and no reason to ask to move on instead. The answer would be "I already claimed everything" or something along those lines. The latter one claims that there was no such information.

And this isn't an instance of hiding a lack of power as bait either, because "I don't know" is completely neutral and doesn't influence what scum can or can't do with the role.

If she'd said she was only claiming miller to avoid the kill, and said so once the results discrepancy happened, I'd even buy that. But she didn't, and it's too late now that she's reaffirmed the claim multiple times.

Right here. This is the active lying. Explain how it isn't.

It is 100% possible that Elements lied.

What it isn't is confirmed. The only result that doesn't add up is today's, and that's better explained by Malakittens lying, because, again...

1. Miller doesn't make sense in this setup
2. If there is a Miller, it has to interact with non-alignment roles since there are no alignment roles
3. No way in hell Malakittens has a Role PM that doesn't explain her role
4. Even if she does have a Role PM that doesn't explain her role, she lied about it in-thread

Here's the crux of my point today.

Not pictured is that Malakittens has claimed responsibility for shooting Enchant, and my specific accusation is Traitor.

-46 posts remaining-

Well, I know I'm not a traitor, so that team being a possibility doesn't particularly bother me because that's where I'm pointing if Malakittens somehow flips green anyway, and if that is the team, scum probably is just a normal team of four.

But if I'm right then while Gimli/Elements is still possible, the evidence is tenuous at best, and Eiralox is pretty heavily implicated, which makes Elements make less sense.

I understand the fear of me being traitor, but I just can't reconcile Malakittens here, and don't understand how anyone else is able to. Just... Please. Don't let caught scum get away. We've been eliminating Town all game, and while I won't pretend I didn't contribute to HPE and especially Gamma.... This is different. We have hard evidence, and it leads here. Please don't ignore it for a maybe.

Yeah, 'course it makes sense. It's all very possible. But it is, at this point, nothing more than speculation.

What I'm missing is the evidence other than "I said so"

viewtopic.php?t=90193&user_select%5B%5D=36844

Why your Mala argument is bad.

~H

Cool. Thing there though is that Flavia didn't pretend to have information she didn't, and also checked and got clarification. Also her role PM did actually describe the role. Slightly ambiguously worded, but it did at least make an attempt to say what the role did, not just drop a name with no elaboration.

Malakittens claimed there was information worth hiding from Mafia, then said there wasn't any actually, and that's independent of whether there actually is or isn't or should be or shouldn't be. She lied about it, regardless of what's actually in the PM.

Your argument totally hinges on whether or not traitors exist, so it’s tinfoily at best. I’m not voting the first player to kill actual scum here. Traitors don’t usually gaf about getting towncred. It’s tantamount to gamethrowing for a traitor - if they do even exist in this game - to try to shoot groupscum for towncred because traitors just don’t normally do that unless god only knows what mind bending drugs an actual traitor would have to be on to do that. Just why?

~H

She wasn't trying to shoot groupscum in my theory; she wouldn't have known Enchant was scum. I said it was possible she just didn't care if she missed, but that is only a possibility, and I never once said I thought it was outright intentional.

You're right that it hinges on a traitor existing. But Malakittens has been caught lying, and her lying solves the problem with Elements' result. There's a reason I was hesitant when I first thought of the idea, but it really does just make sense once you accept the possibility.

In any case, Mala, as traitor, very likely does not know her teammates. So missing is always a possibility. And if she coasts to victory off of it, it won't even have been a miss.

Nah. I already answered your 'evidence.'

Mala NEVER EVER kills Enchant as a traitor. End of story, stop wasting our time.

Enchant kill is completely irrelevant if she doesn't know the main scumteam.

Stop being dense. Town! Enchant is limbait and you know it.

Sometimes he can be, yes. With this playerlist, and with the strongest voices townreading him? Nah.

Who tf other than Eira was tr Enchant? I had a nullread on him. Town!Enchant in most games is like Eira said, very easy miselimbait and unless you’re going to some how argue SvS with Elements, she wouldn’t know their results. Basically I think Elements’ results on both Gimli and Mala add up with her one shot vig role and Gimli probably a goon. In what game ever has a traitor even had a killing role.

Oh and I just realized why Mala can’t possibly be traitor: If Mala was in fact a traitor, why in the actual fuck would she ever claim miller because don’t traitors show up as town to ACs in general?

~H

Infernal Affairs had a traitor vig.

But also no, traitors do not automatically appear Town, though they sometimes can, and just in case the Mafia team doesn't know her identity (can go either way, not sure here how much she knows or how much information was on the main Mafia's side), Miller is a role that almost never gets investigated and almost never gets shot. It's a perfect cover for a Traitor.

Yes, my argument is exactly that she's traitor.

I have said this multiple times.

It's the only world where this makes sense.

The obvious problem is WE DON’T KNOW That TRAITORS EVEN EXIST In THIS SETUP, so not voting anyone based on a half-baked theory with no supporting evidence to back that up and why would traitor!Mala shoot Enchant of all people? Why Enchant? Triator would logically want to shoot obvtown or in our case, someone who’s death will make them look good upon flip, which would be us but not a slot no one maybe other than Eira was tr.

~H

And yet Joker's been floating Traitor ideas since D1, before we actually had compelling evidence to suggest it.

Also, while I concede the situation is different here due to the apparent lack of consent, you have shown that Malakittens is willing to shoot teammates for towncred. Maybe she wasn't sure and just didn't care either way. If she hits scum, it's towncred, if she doesn't she can either not claim or just go "Enchant's hard to read" and no one would question it.

But what is blatantly apparent is that she LIED. Unless there's a damn good explanation for that, then I value that more than the kill. Especially with the backing of Elements' result.

Like, I wouldn't have let an Enchant lim go through. At least not quietly.

I was wrong, obviously, but he was never really in any danger. A couple people floated him as scum, but nothing really materialized. Gimli's been hard pushing him for a while, do you think that was bussing? Do you think Malakittens would have thought it was bussing before shooting?

Nah. I already answered your 'evidence.'

Mala NEVER EVER kills Enchant as a traitor. End of story, stop wasting our time.

Enchant kill is completely irrelevant if she doesn't know the main scumteam.

Yes, my argument is exactly that she's traitor.

I have said this multiple times.

It's the only world where this makes sense.

...

This is definitely a bit tinfoily but...

What if Mala's the traitor?

Miller is a pretty solid claim for a traitor to make, and if she's a traitor who doesn't know the main scumteam, Enchant could have just been an accident.

It helps with the PR balance issue, and explains Elements' result... The informed bit could be the existence of a traitor... It all lines up.

Idk, someone tell me I'm crazy here

Why on earth would hypothetical Mala traitor shoot Enchant like ever? Mala’s locktown, no wonder this game’s such a mess.

Because she wouldn't have known Enchant was scum. Maybe she thought Gimli was scum and so thought the kill was safe, and saw that a mislim wasn't happening.

[Nancy Drew 39]

I'll go find the quotes for you then. I'm neurodivergent in many ways too, I understand it's easy to lose track, but it's still frustrating to repeat myself incessantly. And I wish I could be more patient, but I simply have no way to tell whether you genuinely do just need another explanation, or if you're scum pretending not to understand.

Dyslexia is a visual processor disorder. I also have the auditory version as well. This is my day to day reality. Yes I’m town but it’s a kind of yuck for you to suggest I’m being insincere with this. But I probably don’t bother as scum because I really wouldn’t have much reason to even care, would I?

That said, I go bore everyone about my mangled brainwaves in an eeg test I took but hopefully that won’t be necessary.

Nothing personal but it seems almost every damn day on this site, I feel forced to defend myself for being neurodivergent and maybe I’m just seriously fucking tired of doing that.

Why do you assume - irrespective of alignment - that I’d be somehow trolling you with this. I don’t even know if you realize how insulting that comes across to me?

I’m sure that’s not your intention though but it’s still somewhat triggering for me.

Dyslexia, dysgraphia and multiple other learning disabilities are maybe not what you even have. Every single ND person is different.

Sorry if this seems like a bit of an over reaction but it’s just extremely frustrating to me, no offence to you intended.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Spoiler:

I don't really have the attention span to be digging through and organizing ISOs in a game this length, so I'll just be summarizing for the cases, but if you have doubts, I encourage you to look through them yourself.

Eiralox: Suspicious since D1. Didn't like him floating the idea of a no-lim, has been consistently pushing Town for what I see as disingenuous reasoning, especially egregious with StD, has been trying to eliminate Elements ever since they claimed, treating it as a confirmed fact with the only evidence being the possibility of deception rather than any actual inconsistencies, and a hard chainsaw on me after I caught Malakittens lying. Also hard defended Enchant, who I will admit also thought was Town, but on top of everything else, not a great look. Refusal to engage today, and voting immediately, isn't helping my opinion.

Malakittens: I covered this better yesterday, but. A standard alignment Miller is implausible given the lack of any alignment investigatives in the game. If she's a Miller variant that interacts with the investigatives we DO have, Elements' result is impossible, as she should have been treated as Vanilla. She claims her role PM does not expand on what "Miller" means, which contradicts both basic accessibility design, and all of the flipped role PMs so far. And even allowing for the possibility of her having a role PM that doesn't explain anything, she presented it as though she did have information she thought scum shouldn't know, then later claimed no information existed at all: a clear contradiction.

Elements: Known to be a visiting role, and the claim of Vanilla Parity Cop isn't possible to prove 100%. Claims could have been partially based on Enchant's actual results combined with in-thread claims, but there were no inconsistencies until Mala/Gimli. Survived longer than expected of a claimed PR, and without being blocked until today. If the last surviving scum is the Roleblocker, she is overwhelmingly likely to be it.

KJ: Has been a driving force behind every mislim in the game, weird fixation on the "double soft inno" thing, 180 read flip on me to chainsaw for Malakittens, extremely thick ATE, reckless ELo voting, and while a lot of that is a personality thing... PoE gets real thin here and you make the most sense to be aligned with Eira/Mala.

Yes because we are in fact double soft inno’d and I am absolutely telling the truth about that. We have a theory that scum pretty doesn’t target you if you’re 100% right or wrong. Our theory is you’re probably wrong on Elements but right only part of your solve is right because if you’re totally offbase, why would scum bother with you but if you’re totally right, scum wouldn’t likely want to confirm, so I think you may possibly be partially right. Joker of course still has some paranoia that you could still be scum and no nk but I don’t think so. What part? We’re still trying to figure that out. But you really need to explain to me why Mala vigbusses Enchant because that’s kind of a biggie.

~Harley

My problem with the "double soft inno" thing is that neither being vanilla nor not committing a kill one night make you inno. They do decrease the raw statistical likelihood of you being scum, and I'm fine with that being brought up to defend yourself, but when every single time anyone says anything about you you feel the need to remind everyone you have a "double soft inno," it just comes off as annoying and LAMISTy. Frankly, it reminds me a lot of your behavior around MMR's guilty on you in Cosmos.

As I covered yesterday, the best way to make any of this make sense is if Mala's a traitor and did not know Enchant was scum. It explains the miller claim, and the kill, and traitor is a natural thing to slot into Enchant's redacted information. It is also possible that it was just a galaxy brain play, and if it was... well, it's working.

I don't really have the attention span to be digging through and organizing ISOs in a game this length, so I'll just be summarizing for the cases, but if you have doubts, I encourage you to look through them yourself.

Eiralox: Suspicious since D1. Didn't like him floating the idea of a no-lim, has been consistently pushing Town for what I see as disingenuous reasoning, especially egregious with StD, has been trying to eliminate Elements ever since they claimed, treating it as a confirmed fact with the only evidence being the possibility of deception rather than any actual inconsistencies, and a hard chainsaw on me after I caught Malakittens lying. Also hard defended Enchant, who I will admit also thought was Town, but on top of everything else, not a great look. Refusal to engage today, and voting immediately, isn't helping my opinion.

Malakittens: I covered this better yesterday, but. A standard alignment Miller is implausible given the lack of any alignment investigatives in the game. If she's a Miller variant that interacts with the investigatives we DO have, Elements' result is impossible, as she should have been treated as Vanilla. She claims her role PM does not expand on what "Miller" means, which contradicts both basic accessibility design, and all of the flipped role PMs so far. And even allowing for the possibility of her having a role PM that doesn't explain anything, she presented it as though she did have information she thought scum shouldn't know, then later claimed no information existed at all: a clear contradiction.

Elements: Known to be a visiting role, and the claim of Vanilla Parity Cop isn't possible to prove 100%. Claims could have been partially based on Enchant's actual results combined with in-thread claims, but there were no inconsistencies until Mala/Gimli. Survived longer than expected of a claimed PR, and without being blocked until today. If the last surviving scum is the Roleblocker, she is overwhelmingly likely to be it.

KJ: Has been a driving force behind every mislim in the game, weird fixation on the "double soft inno" thing, 180 read flip on me to chainsaw for Malakittens, extremely thick ATE, reckless ELo voting, and while a lot of that is a personality thing... PoE gets real thin here and you make the most sense to be aligned with Eira/Mala.

The less amount of information that scum has the better. Can we just move on?

Unless you are telling me that I’m scum and enchant bussed me by fishing for my role.

So, to be 100% clear, all it says is that "you are a miller" with no elaboration on what that means?

Yes

I'll let the asshole thing slide since it was apparently influenced by outside forces, and I think that's mostly reasonable.

But these two posts should not exist in the same universe, EVEN IF we allow the possibility of a Role PM that doesn't explain the role.

The first one implies that information exists, otherwise there'd be nothing to hide from scum, and no reason to ask to move on instead. The answer would be "I already claimed everything" or something along those lines. The latter one claims that there was no such information.

And this isn't an instance of hiding a lack of power as bait either, because "I don't know" is completely neutral and doesn't influence what scum can or can't do with the role.

If she'd said she was only claiming miller to avoid the kill, and said so once the results discrepancy happened, I'd even buy that. But she didn't, and it's too late now that she's reaffirmed the claim multiple times.

Right here. This is the active lying. Explain how it isn't.

It is 100% possible that Elements lied.

What it isn't is confirmed. The only result that doesn't add up is today's, and that's better explained by Malakittens lying, because, again...

1. Miller doesn't make sense in this setup
2. If there is a Miller, it has to interact with non-alignment roles since there are no alignment roles
3. No way in hell Malakittens has a Role PM that doesn't explain her role
4. Even if she does have a Role PM that doesn't explain her role, she lied about it in-thread

Here's the crux of my point today.

Not pictured is that Malakittens has claimed responsibility for shooting Enchant, and my specific accusation is Traitor.

-46 posts remaining-

Well, I know I'm not a traitor, so that team being a possibility doesn't particularly bother me because that's where I'm pointing if Malakittens somehow flips green anyway, and if that is the team, scum probably is just a normal team of four.

But if I'm right then while Gimli/Elements is still possible, the evidence is tenuous at best, and Eiralox is pretty heavily implicated, which makes Elements make less sense.

I understand the fear of me being traitor, but I just can't reconcile Malakittens here, and don't understand how anyone else is able to. Just... Please. Don't let caught scum get away. We've been eliminating Town all game, and while I won't pretend I didn't contribute to HPE and especially Gamma.... This is different. We have hard evidence, and it leads here. Please don't ignore it for a maybe.

Yeah, 'course it makes sense. It's all very possible. But it is, at this point, nothing more than speculation.

What I'm missing is the evidence other than "I said so"

viewtopic.php?t=90193&user_select%5B%5D=36844

Why your Mala argument is bad.

~H

Cool. Thing there though is that Flavia didn't pretend to have information she didn't, and also checked and got clarification. Also her role PM did actually describe the role. Slightly ambiguously worded, but it did at least make an attempt to say what the role did, not just drop a name with no elaboration.

Malakittens claimed there was information worth hiding from Mafia, then said there wasn't any actually, and that's independent of whether there actually is or isn't or should be or shouldn't be. She lied about it, regardless of what's actually in the PM.

Your argument totally hinges on whether or not traitors exist, so it’s tinfoily at best. I’m not voting the first player to kill actual scum here. Traitors don’t usually gaf about getting towncred. It’s tantamount to gamethrowing for a traitor - if they do even exist in this game - to try to shoot groupscum for towncred because traitors just don’t normally do that unless god only knows what mind bending drugs an actual traitor would have to be on to do that. Just why?

~H

She wasn't trying to shoot groupscum in my theory; she wouldn't have known Enchant was scum. I said it was possible she just didn't care if she missed, but that is only a possibility, and I never once said I thought it was outright intentional.

You're right that it hinges on a traitor existing. But Malakittens has been caught lying, and her lying solves the problem with Elements' result. There's a reason I was hesitant when I first thought of the idea, but it really does just make sense once you accept the possibility.

In any case, Mala, as traitor, very likely does not know her teammates. So missing is always a possibility. And if she coasts to victory off of it, it won't even have been a miss.

Nah. I already answered your 'evidence.'

Mala NEVER EVER kills Enchant as a traitor. End of story, stop wasting our time.

Enchant kill is completely irrelevant if she doesn't know the main scumteam.

Stop being dense. Town! Enchant is limbait and you know it.

Sometimes he can be, yes. With this playerlist, and with the strongest voices townreading him? Nah.

Who tf other than Eira was tr Enchant? I had a nullread on him. Town!Enchant in most games is like Eira said, very easy miselimbait and unless you’re going to some how argue SvS with Elements, she wouldn’t know their results. Basically I think Elements’ results on both Gimli and Mala add up with her one shot vig role and Gimli probably a goon. In what game ever has a traitor even had a killing role.

Oh and I just realized why Mala can’t possibly be traitor: If Mala was in fact a traitor, why in the actual fuck would she ever claim miller because don’t traitors show up as town to ACs in general?

~H

Infernal Affairs had a traitor vig.

But also no, traitors do not automatically appear Town, though they sometimes can, and just in case the Mafia team doesn't know her identity (can go either way, not sure here how much she knows or how much information was on the main Mafia's side), Miller is a role that almost never gets investigated and almost never gets shot. It's a perfect cover for a Traitor.

Yes, my argument is exactly that she's traitor.

I have said this multiple times.

It's the only world where this makes sense.

The obvious problem is WE DON’T KNOW That TRAITORS EVEN EXIST In THIS SETUP, so not voting anyone based on a half-baked theory with no supporting evidence to back that up and why would traitor!Mala shoot Enchant of all people? Why Enchant? Triator would logically want to shoot obvtown or in our case, someone who’s death will make them look good upon flip, which would be us but not a slot no one maybe other than Eira was tr.

~H

And yet Joker's been floating Traitor ideas since D1, before we actually had compelling evidence to suggest it.

Also, while I concede the situation is different here due to the apparent lack of consent, you have shown that Malakittens is willing to shoot teammates for towncred. Maybe she wasn't sure and just didn't care either way. If she hits scum, it's towncred, if she doesn't she can either not claim or just go "Enchant's hard to read" and no one would question it.

But what is blatantly apparent is that she LIED. Unless there's a damn good explanation for that, then I value that more than the kill. Especially with the backing of Elements' result.

Like, I wouldn't have let an Enchant lim go through. At least not quietly.

I was wrong, obviously, but he was never really in any danger. A couple people floated him as scum, but nothing really materialized. Gimli's been hard pushing him for a while, do you think that was bussing? Do you think Malakittens would have thought it was bussing before shooting?

Nah. I already answered your 'evidence.'

Mala NEVER EVER kills Enchant as a traitor. End of story, stop wasting our time.

Enchant kill is completely irrelevant if she doesn't know the main scumteam.

Yes, my argument is exactly that she's traitor.

I have said this multiple times.

It's the only world where this makes sense.

...

This is definitely a bit tinfoily but...

What if Mala's the traitor?

Miller is a pretty solid claim for a traitor to make, and if she's a traitor who doesn't know the main scumteam, Enchant could have just been an accident.

It helps with the PR balance issue, and explains Elements' result... The informed bit could be the existence of a traitor... It all lines up.

Idk, someone tell me I'm crazy here

Why on earth would hypothetical Mala traitor shoot Enchant like ever? Mala’s locktown, no wonder this game’s such a mess.

Because she wouldn't have known Enchant was scum. Maybe she thought Gimli was scum and so thought the kill was safe, and saw that a mislim wasn't happening.

Okay so really nothing new then? I was hoping you had some more thoughts on this but here’s the thing, how do you ignore that she vigged a scum in afawk, a singleball type setup. I just don’t understand why scum!Mala would do that.

[Radical Rat]

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to imply you're lying about your dyslexia or anything else, and I didn't even mean to say I don't trust you specifically about it. That's why I agreed to go dig up the quotes for you instead of doubling down on not dealing with it anymore. I'm sorry I hurt you that way.

My point was just that you, as scum, have a vested interest in frustrating me, running up my post count, clogging the thread, etc. Asking me the same question a dozen times is conducive to those goals.

This is also something that can be explained by your neurological conditions, and if you say that's what it is, I will trust you to have the basic grasp on ethics necessary to not lie about health issues to win a game on the internet.

I was trying to explain why I reacted the way I did before you clarified/reminded me of why you sometimes need that, and I did so poorly.

[Radical Rat]

Spoiler:

I don't really have the attention span to be digging through and organizing ISOs in a game this length, so I'll just be summarizing for the cases, but if you have doubts, I encourage you to look through them yourself.

Eiralox: Suspicious since D1. Didn't like him floating the idea of a no-lim, has been consistently pushing Town for what I see as disingenuous reasoning, especially egregious with StD, has been trying to eliminate Elements ever since they claimed, treating it as a confirmed fact with the only evidence being the possibility of deception rather than any actual inconsistencies, and a hard chainsaw on me after I caught Malakittens lying. Also hard defended Enchant, who I will admit also thought was Town, but on top of everything else, not a great look. Refusal to engage today, and voting immediately, isn't helping my opinion.

Malakittens: I covered this better yesterday, but. A standard alignment Miller is implausible given the lack of any alignment investigatives in the game. If she's a Miller variant that interacts with the investigatives we DO have, Elements' result is impossible, as she should have been treated as Vanilla. She claims her role PM does not expand on what "Miller" means, which contradicts both basic accessibility design, and all of the flipped role PMs so far. And even allowing for the possibility of her having a role PM that doesn't explain anything, she presented it as though she did have information she thought scum shouldn't know, then later claimed no information existed at all: a clear contradiction.

Elements: Known to be a visiting role, and the claim of Vanilla Parity Cop isn't possible to prove 100%. Claims could have been partially based on Enchant's actual results combined with in-thread claims, but there were no inconsistencies until Mala/Gimli. Survived longer than expected of a claimed PR, and without being blocked until today. If the last surviving scum is the Roleblocker, she is overwhelmingly likely to be it.

KJ: Has been a driving force behind every mislim in the game, weird fixation on the "double soft inno" thing, 180 read flip on me to chainsaw for Malakittens, extremely thick ATE, reckless ELo voting, and while a lot of that is a personality thing... PoE gets real thin here and you make the most sense to be aligned with Eira/Mala.

Yes because we are in fact double soft inno’d and I am absolutely telling the truth about that. We have a theory that scum pretty doesn’t target you if you’re 100% right or wrong. Our theory is you’re probably wrong on Elements but right only part of your solve is right because if you’re totally offbase, why would scum bother with you but if you’re totally right, scum wouldn’t likely want to confirm, so I think you may possibly be partially right. Joker of course still has some paranoia that you could still be scum and no nk but I don’t think so. What part? We’re still trying to figure that out. But you really need to explain to me why Mala vigbusses Enchant because that’s kind of a biggie.

~Harley

My problem with the "double soft inno" thing is that neither being vanilla nor not committing a kill one night make you inno. They do decrease the raw statistical likelihood of you being scum, and I'm fine with that being brought up to defend yourself, but when every single time anyone says anything about you you feel the need to remind everyone you have a "double soft inno," it just comes off as annoying and LAMISTy. Frankly, it reminds me a lot of your behavior around MMR's guilty on you in Cosmos.

As I covered yesterday, the best way to make any of this make sense is if Mala's a traitor and did not know Enchant was scum. It explains the miller claim, and the kill, and traitor is a natural thing to slot into Enchant's redacted information. It is also possible that it was just a galaxy brain play, and if it was... well, it's working.

I don't really have the attention span to be digging through and organizing ISOs in a game this length, so I'll just be summarizing for the cases, but if you have doubts, I encourage you to look through them yourself.

Eiralox: Suspicious since D1. Didn't like him floating the idea of a no-lim, has been consistently pushing Town for what I see as disingenuous reasoning, especially egregious with StD, has been trying to eliminate Elements ever since they claimed, treating it as a confirmed fact with the only evidence being the possibility of deception rather than any actual inconsistencies, and a hard chainsaw on me after I caught Malakittens lying. Also hard defended Enchant, who I will admit also thought was Town, but on top of everything else, not a great look. Refusal to engage today, and voting immediately, isn't helping my opinion.

Malakittens: I covered this better yesterday, but. A standard alignment Miller is implausible given the lack of any alignment investigatives in the game. If she's a Miller variant that interacts with the investigatives we DO have, Elements' result is impossible, as she should have been treated as Vanilla. She claims her role PM does not expand on what "Miller" means, which contradicts both basic accessibility design, and all of the flipped role PMs so far. And even allowing for the possibility of her having a role PM that doesn't explain anything, she presented it as though she did have information she thought scum shouldn't know, then later claimed no information existed at all: a clear contradiction.

Elements: Known to be a visiting role, and the claim of Vanilla Parity Cop isn't possible to prove 100%. Claims could have been partially based on Enchant's actual results combined with in-thread claims, but there were no inconsistencies until Mala/Gimli. Survived longer than expected of a claimed PR, and without being blocked until today. If the last surviving scum is the Roleblocker, she is overwhelmingly likely to be it.

KJ: Has been a driving force behind every mislim in the game, weird fixation on the "double soft inno" thing, 180 read flip on me to chainsaw for Malakittens, extremely thick ATE, reckless ELo voting, and while a lot of that is a personality thing... PoE gets real thin here and you make the most sense to be aligned with Eira/Mala.

The less amount of information that scum has the better. Can we just move on?

Unless you are telling me that I’m scum and enchant bussed me by fishing for my role.

So, to be 100% clear, all it says is that "you are a miller" with no elaboration on what that means?

Yes

I'll let the asshole thing slide since it was apparently influenced by outside forces, and I think that's mostly reasonable.

But these two posts should not exist in the same universe, EVEN IF we allow the possibility of a Role PM that doesn't explain the role.

The first one implies that information exists, otherwise there'd be nothing to hide from scum, and no reason to ask to move on instead. The answer would be "I already claimed everything" or something along those lines. The latter one claims that there was no such information.

And this isn't an instance of hiding a lack of power as bait either, because "I don't know" is completely neutral and doesn't influence what scum can or can't do with the role.

If she'd said she was only claiming miller to avoid the kill, and said so once the results discrepancy happened, I'd even buy that. But she didn't, and it's too late now that she's reaffirmed the claim multiple times.

Right here. This is the active lying. Explain how it isn't.

It is 100% possible that Elements lied.

What it isn't is confirmed. The only result that doesn't add up is today's, and that's better explained by Malakittens lying, because, again...

1. Miller doesn't make sense in this setup
2. If there is a Miller, it has to interact with non-alignment roles since there are no alignment roles
3. No way in hell Malakittens has a Role PM that doesn't explain her role
4. Even if she does have a Role PM that doesn't explain her role, she lied about it in-thread

Here's the crux of my point today.

Not pictured is that Malakittens has claimed responsibility for shooting Enchant, and my specific accusation is Traitor.

-46 posts remaining-

Well, I know I'm not a traitor, so that team being a possibility doesn't particularly bother me because that's where I'm pointing if Malakittens somehow flips green anyway, and if that is the team, scum probably is just a normal team of four.

But if I'm right then while Gimli/Elements is still possible, the evidence is tenuous at best, and Eiralox is pretty heavily implicated, which makes Elements make less sense.

I understand the fear of me being traitor, but I just can't reconcile Malakittens here, and don't understand how anyone else is able to. Just... Please. Don't let caught scum get away. We've been eliminating Town all game, and while I won't pretend I didn't contribute to HPE and especially Gamma.... This is different. We have hard evidence, and it leads here. Please don't ignore it for a maybe.

Yeah, 'course it makes sense. It's all very possible. But it is, at this point, nothing more than speculation.

What I'm missing is the evidence other than "I said so"

viewtopic.php?t=90193&user_select%5B%5D=36844

Why your Mala argument is bad.

~H

Cool. Thing there though is that Flavia didn't pretend to have information she didn't, and also checked and got clarification. Also her role PM did actually describe the role. Slightly ambiguously worded, but it did at least make an attempt to say what the role did, not just drop a name with no elaboration.

Malakittens claimed there was information worth hiding from Mafia, then said there wasn't any actually, and that's independent of whether there actually is or isn't or should be or shouldn't be. She lied about it, regardless of what's actually in the PM.

Your argument totally hinges on whether or not traitors exist, so it’s tinfoily at best. I’m not voting the first player to kill actual scum here. Traitors don’t usually gaf about getting towncred. It’s tantamount to gamethrowing for a traitor - if they do even exist in this game - to try to shoot groupscum for towncred because traitors just don’t normally do that unless god only knows what mind bending drugs an actual traitor would have to be on to do that. Just why?

~H

She wasn't trying to shoot groupscum in my theory; she wouldn't have known Enchant was scum. I said it was possible she just didn't care if she missed, but that is only a possibility, and I never once said I thought it was outright intentional.

You're right that it hinges on a traitor existing. But Malakittens has been caught lying, and her lying solves the problem with Elements' result. There's a reason I was hesitant when I first thought of the idea, but it really does just make sense once you accept the possibility.

In any case, Mala, as traitor, very likely does not know her teammates. So missing is always a possibility. And if she coasts to victory off of it, it won't even have been a miss.

Nah. I already answered your 'evidence.'

Mala NEVER EVER kills Enchant as a traitor. End of story, stop wasting our time.

Enchant kill is completely irrelevant if she doesn't know the main scumteam.

Stop being dense. Town! Enchant is limbait and you know it.

Sometimes he can be, yes. With this playerlist, and with the strongest voices townreading him? Nah.

Who tf other than Eira was tr Enchant? I had a nullread on him. Town!Enchant in most games is like Eira said, very easy miselimbait and unless you’re going to some how argue SvS with Elements, she wouldn’t know their results. Basically I think Elements’ results on both Gimli and Mala add up with her one shot vig role and Gimli probably a goon. In what game ever has a traitor even had a killing role.

Oh and I just realized why Mala can’t possibly be traitor: If Mala was in fact a traitor, why in the actual fuck would she ever claim miller because don’t traitors show up as town to ACs in general?

~H

Infernal Affairs had a traitor vig.

But also no, traitors do not automatically appear Town, though they sometimes can, and just in case the Mafia team doesn't know her identity (can go either way, not sure here how much she knows or how much information was on the main Mafia's side), Miller is a role that almost never gets investigated and almost never gets shot. It's a perfect cover for a Traitor.

Yes, my argument is exactly that she's traitor.

I have said this multiple times.

It's the only world where this makes sense.

The obvious problem is WE DON’T KNOW That TRAITORS EVEN EXIST In THIS SETUP, so not voting anyone based on a half-baked theory with no supporting evidence to back that up and why would traitor!Mala shoot Enchant of all people? Why Enchant? Triator would logically want to shoot obvtown or in our case, someone who’s death will make them look good upon flip, which would be us but not a slot no one maybe other than Eira was tr.

~H

And yet Joker's been floating Traitor ideas since D1, before we actually had compelling evidence to suggest it.

Also, while I concede the situation is different here due to the apparent lack of consent, you have shown that Malakittens is willing to shoot teammates for towncred. Maybe she wasn't sure and just didn't care either way. If she hits scum, it's towncred, if she doesn't she can either not claim or just go "Enchant's hard to read" and no one would question it.

But what is blatantly apparent is that she LIED. Unless there's a damn good explanation for that, then I value that more than the kill. Especially with the backing of Elements' result.

Like, I wouldn't have let an Enchant lim go through. At least not quietly.

I was wrong, obviously, but he was never really in any danger. A couple people floated him as scum, but nothing really materialized. Gimli's been hard pushing him for a while, do you think that was bussing? Do you think Malakittens would have thought it was bussing before shooting?

Nah. I already answered your 'evidence.'

Mala NEVER EVER kills Enchant as a traitor. End of story, stop wasting our time.

Enchant kill is completely irrelevant if she doesn't know the main scumteam.

Yes, my argument is exactly that she's traitor.

I have said this multiple times.

It's the only world where this makes sense.

...

This is definitely a bit tinfoily but...

What if Mala's the traitor?

Miller is a pretty solid claim for a traitor to make, and if she's a traitor who doesn't know the main scumteam, Enchant could have just been an accident.

It helps with the PR balance issue, and explains Elements' result... The informed bit could be the existence of a traitor... It all lines up.

Idk, someone tell me I'm crazy here

Why on earth would hypothetical Mala traitor shoot Enchant like ever? Mala’s locktown, no wonder this game’s such a mess.

Because she wouldn't have known Enchant was scum. Maybe she thought Gimli was scum and so thought the kill was safe, and saw that a mislim wasn't happening.

Okay so really nothing new then? I was hoping you had some more thoughts on this but here’s the thing, how do you ignore that she vigged a scum in afawk, a singleball type setup. I just don’t understand why scum!Mala would do that.

Why does Town!Mala lie about her role?

Whether you personally think they are likely or not, Mala being a traitor who doesn't know the scumteam, or it being a 9000 IQ galaxy brain bus are both things that are feasible for scum to do. I think the traitor option is significantly more likely, but both are possible.

The lying though? I haven't been able to think of ANY explanation for that. No one else, including Mala herself, the one person who would definitely know, has even really tried, just defaulting to "But she shot Enchant!"

And it's exhausting how it feels like I'm the only one putting in work here.

[Killing Joke]

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to imply you're lying about your dyslexia or anything else, and I didn't even mean to say I don't trust you specifically about it. That's why I agreed to go dig up the quotes for you instead of doubling down on not dealing with it anymore. I'm sorry I hurt you that way.

My point was just that you, as scum, have a vested interest in frustrating me, running up my post count, clogging the thread, etc. Asking me the same question a dozen times is conducive to those goals.

This is also something that can be explained by your neurological conditions,

and if you say that's what it is, I will trust you to have the basic grasp on ethics necessary to not lie about health issues to win a game on the internet.

I was trying to explain why I reacted the way I did before you clarified/reminded me of why you sometimes need that, and I did so poorly.

@RR, if you are seriously trying to trigger me with this, the, congrats you’re totally succeeding!

I majorly take extreme offence to the bolded. Wrongly sr me whatever but things like the bolded need to a gazillion percent be off limit.

This is just so extremely offensive. You do not have the right to - not saying anything more,I’m way too pissed.

[Radical Rat]

I... Think you might have misread me.

I'm saying I DON'T think you would do that

[Radical Rat]

I'm sorry, I should have made my phrasing more clear.

I do NOT think you are lying about any of your neurological conditions.

I do NOT think you are lying about their application here.

I DO think you are a better person than to do either of the above.

[Bellaphant]

I had a dream that I went for coffee with eira and they scum slipped.

[Eiralox]

I..... don't know what to say. Hope I didn't have a scaly hide or eyes growing on my feet or something.

I have to say this though, because I do seem not to have been succint enough despite being utterly blunt: Elements and Killing Joke are both mutineers.

[Eiralox]

Nancy, nancy I mean

[Bellaphant]

Can you bullet point the Nancy case? I honestly don't recognise this as their scum game.

[Eiralox]

Can? Yes.

I won't though.

I've already told Nancy Drew I'll talk once Elements is gone. That doesn't change.

[Flea The Magician]

Migraine Aura be fading... Probably a docs visit tomorrow if this continues.

Just ISO me backwards for Mala. I'm tired of repeating myself over and over and over and over when the reality is you probably are just scum. You're still free to ask for clarification if something confuses you, but this question is one I've been repeatedly answering since the very first post I brought up this theory. The answer's there if you care to look.

And then we're just not getting anywhere with the inno thing, and frankly at this point it probably doesn't matter. If it's Elements, that'll be obvious and it won't be an issue. If it's you, this whole discussion is pointless. If it's neither, then we need to be looking elsewhere anyway.

The reality to anyone not ludicrously confibiased is very obviously town. You aren’t winning this argument since I’m right and you aren’t.

Few things irritate me more than someone with 0 clue what they’re talking about is going to try to convince me that my role pm is any other than EXACTLY what I’m saying it is.

How many posts do you want to throw away with this pointless exchange before you actually buy a clue?

I’m dyslexic, have ADHD and otherwise multi neurodivergent, so if you’re sincerely trying to solve this game, I’d very much appreciate you being a helpful sport here and breaking down your thoughts on Mala in a single posts because none of this is even SLIGHTLY remotely helpful to me.

And yes, if you are going to persist in being unhelpful in your interactions with me, don’t expect anything less from me then.

Careful of OGI Nancy... <3 - I may be salty over something, and its not Bellaphant.

Step by stepping this.

Ok you know your PM, we dont.

We all know Titus has you as N1 going nowhere and Elements claims youre vanilla, which means youre not a PR. These two claims together mean you are N1 Killclear. All we know is you did not kill, in a game where we dont know the size of the scum team. At this point its 3 or 4 (total).

The only confirmed information is you went nowhere N1, you could still be a goon or VT. This assumes Elements is also telling the truth and is town. Elements check means youre not a Ninja or anything.

You are not even soft clear, you have a 1 night kill clear. And yeah the moment any sus is brought up ir go more hame then me with a stick at LARP - and people are wondering if I should just be given the lethal call instead of the non lethal one because of how hard I go. :3

[Flea The Magician]

Nothing personal but it seems almost every damn day on this site, I feel forced to defend myself for being neurodivergent and maybe I’m just seriously fucking tired of doing that.

Whole fuckin mood here...

[Flea The Magician]

Fucking hell more I read funkier it got.

I have a comment to make but ill get FR'd if i do lol.

What I Will say is - Nobody should be using their conditions to gain an extra edge. I realise intent isnt always enough and it can happen - as it has with me and Bella. And i trust the people I play with to do their best not to. I have a hell of a vent post game to unleash somewhere - probably my GTKAS - which if posted currently i believe would influence this game significantly despite being unrelated.

ANYWAY.

If I follow my instinct here, Eira is todays keelhaul. Haant quite sat right with me all game, and I dont like the stubbornness and deliberate non communication at YOLO.

[Eiralox]

As I told Radical Rat: Do it then.

I have given my guarantee.

I no longer waste my breath.

[Elements]

Can? Yes.

I won't though.

I've already told Nancy Drew I'll talk once Elements is gone. That doesn't change.

As I told Radical Rat: Do it then.

I have given my guarantee.

I no longer waste my breath.

This is the most anti-town behaviour I have ever seen. Eira is putting down an ultimatum: Vote Elements or I will not play this game.
Someone please tell me how this can possibly be a town slot?

[Eiralox]

Vote Elements and vote out a mutineer.

Anything else I say, I'm just wasting my time.

[Bellaphant]

I think we almost have to vote Elly or mala here?

@flea, I think I want people to be acting in good faith more than they are: i would have been really upset if I had quoted the bible at you and got that reaction, but that's because I would never have considered using it that way in the first place, Ans maybe that wasn't true here? Anyway, I don't want to upset anyone but j do think I need to shout a bit louder about the specific things that are frustrating me and maybe wedv communicated better earlier. I also have issues sometimes reading on tone rather than content, which is why I'm suddenly feeling better about you slot, but that own always accurate.

[Eiralox]

I had a dream that I went for coffee with eira and they scum slipped.

I also hope the coffee was at least good.

[Elements]

Bella, can you tell my why town!Eira plays like this?

[Flea The Magician]

I think we almost have to vote Elly or mala here?

@flea, I think I want people to be acting in good faith more than they are: i would have been really upset if I had quoted the bible at you and got that reaction, but that's because I would never have considered using it that way in the first place, Ans maybe that wasn't true here? Anyway, I don't want to upset anyone but j do think I need to shout a bit louder about the specific things that are frustrating me and maybe wedv communicated better earlier. I also have issues sometimes reading on tone rather than content, which is why I'm suddenly feeling better about you slot, but that own always accurate.

A lot of lgbtq folk hold religious trauma, as much as theres some of us who are faithful.
I get followed by the local churches except the JW who actively turn their backs on me, and im not welcome in the building where the local TARA meets because Sally Army.

I stand by my reaction, as someone whos spent an considerable amount of times filling these forms out and being psychoanalysed to the point i learned this stuff inside and out, I was safeguarding my own health which i know is sketchy at the moment.

I asked why and what was hoped to gain, and instead got the Bible yeet at me.

My traumas aside which i apparently dont own as well as I thought I did, moving from demanding a psychological analysis to responding a genuine query is ultimately bad faith.

Its "Do what I say or youre scum" which is disgusting behaviour as it is, unfolding as it did is nothing less than bad faith.

---

As for votes, Eiralox has been on Elements long enough for scum to have hammered at this point. Meaning its within those two, and those two are our consideration for today.

I am going to ISO Elements before making a move, i am leaning Eiralox currently.

[Flea The Magician]

Ebwop
My traumas aside which i apparently dont own as well as I thought I did, moving from demanding a psychological analysis to responding to a genuine query with any sort of push is ultimately bad faith.