Micro 1070 | a micro normal | Endgame

[biancospino]

Votecount

VC 1-VI

Aureal (3 = E-2):

Herta, Wavelength, mykonian

Herta (2):

Aristeia, Datisi

mykonian (1):

Aureal

Klick (1):

Andante

Datisi (1):

Alisae

Not Voting (1):

Klick

With 9 alive, it takes 5 for an execution.

Deadline:

(expired on 2023-02-26 00:51:00)

mod notes:

• I'm counting by hand, let me know if there is anything wrong.
  
• General reminder not to use "Lynch" to refer to the Village's communal mean of elimination. You may use Eliminate (or Lim), Execute, Yeet or whatever else carries the point across.
  
• The combined mod ISO can be found here.

[Alisae]

alisae, i gave you opportunities to explain to me how this solves the game past you transcending us mortals and having perfect insight into mod's brain

i don't appreciate being insulted like that for not agreeing with your worldview

I'm not giving more than I already have for you to tell your wolf buddy how to navigate this

[Datisi]

lurker

if i'm wrong on alisae then i can imagine scum being in the less active players and i wanna press them into giving opinions

that good?

[Alisae]

I don't see how I insulted you, I just think you're a wolf in this game.

[Aristeia]

alisae i think you are just wrong because you have a very different view of normal games than Datisi and the effectiveness of outguessing the mod.

[Aristeia]

you insulted him because you said if he's town then he is not practicing critical thought.

[mykonian]

lurker

if i'm wrong on alisae then i can imagine scum being in the less active players and i wanna press them into giving opinions

that good?

yup, happy.

[Alisae]

you insulted him because you said if he's town then he is not practicing critical thought.

Is saying that they're not thinking an insult?
I'm attacking the play. The play looks closedminded.

[Alisae]

not trying to attack the person

[Aristeia]

ok think about what that comment looks like if he is town and also thinking critically.

[Alisae]

I think my point with the post was that I really don't see that angle. I believe Datisi does critically think so when I just see what is essentially "no you're stupid, this is meaningless and goes nowhere" I just see that without how we got there. It feels like they're just shutting me down and refusing to show any consideration into opening that box and trying to see at my level.

I don't really know what else to think cause if they are thinking critically, I don't see it right now, and I think they could do a better job at showing that.

If I'm wrong and Datisi can show me how they can think this is meaningless and goes nowhere by bringing themselves down to my level and arguing on that front WHILE ALSO being able to prove that they're a villager I'll apologize.

[Alisae]

but otherwise this just looks like Datisi is just using his view to shit down on me which I think is more likely to come from a wolf than a villager

[Datisi]

shutting me down and refusing to show any consideration into opening that box

i literally went along your plan and claimed whether i'm informed, AND i asked you MULTIPLE TIMES to explain to me how the fuck do you plan to do this, in a way that doesn't involve mod guessing

but yeah sure

[Datisi]

like i literally didn't even tell anyone else to not claim! i am doing nothing to stop you from asking other people to claim! i'm just saying this plan is not going to work and i feel like you're using my thoughts for pushing me in bad faith!

[mykonian]

I’ll claim in full just to make things easier
Informed JOAT w/ w messenger shots and 2 fruit vendor shots.
I’m informed that if someone can perform a misc action, they have my role. So not only is this the JOAT shots but ALSO they are informed.
It’s the kind of role one looks at in this context and can easily go “yep, both wolves have this role” and I think writing said conclusion off entirely because my pm states that just because many exist with my role but it’s not necessary the same alignment is naive. Just considering the pov of a designer here and I can see someone wanting to design a game of this nature and call it complex.

so I had to look up what a messenger is.

So apparently Lisa got a PR that tells them something about the setup. I'm going out on a limb there and say that that's likely something a mod gives to scum. They are supposed to be informed and if the setup is a bit weird, might as well tell them. I don't quite understand how and what and honestly I don't care, but this is something I do not expect on a town role.

So a messenger gets to send a message to a player via the mod! I've had some of my most fun games as scum with that role. It's brilliant. Don't care much about the fruit vendors, they are w/e.

But this is such a scum role to claim. The hell?

[Alisae]

shutting me down and refusing to show any consideration into opening that box

i literally went along your plan and claimed whether i'm informed, AND i asked you MULTIPLE TIMES to explain to me how the fuck do you plan to do this, in a way that doesn't involve mod guessing

but yeah sure

I have expectations on what I think the game looks like and I want to see if that lines up with what I think is reality.
I don't want to comment on this anymore until it's done.

like i literally didn't even tell anyone else to not claim! i am doing nothing to stop you from asking other people to claim! i'm just saying this plan is not going to work and i feel like you're using my thoughts for pushing me in bad faith!

Okay ya...I think I get your angle here if you're a villager. I think if you're a villager you probably just don't know where I'm going with this? Maybe you haven't thought it through. I would encourage you to ponder this a bit and like try to create setups in your mind of what a game like this could possibly look like.

I think it is pretty unfair of me to say you aren't critically thinking you are a villager given this post because you are cooperating to a degree. Sorry, I think I could do a better job at trying to listen to you.

I don't see you as a villager in this game, I think you're a wolf. I think what you've posted in this game is pretty convenient to come from you as a wolf.

[Alisae]

I’ll claim in full just to make things easier
Informed JOAT w/ w messenger shots and 2 fruit vendor shots.
I’m informed that if someone can perform a misc action, they have my role. So not only is this the JOAT shots but ALSO they are informed.
It’s the kind of role one looks at in this context and can easily go “yep, both wolves have this role” and I think writing said conclusion off entirely because my pm states that just because many exist with my role but it’s not necessary the same alignment is naive. Just considering the pov of a designer here and I can see someone wanting to design a game of this nature and call it complex.

so I had to look up what a messenger is.

So apparently Lisa got a PR that tells them something about the setup. I'm going out on a limb there and say that that's likely something a mod gives to scum. They are supposed to be informed and if the setup is a bit weird, might as well tell them. I don't quite understand how and what and honestly I don't care, but this is something I do not expect on a town role.

So a messenger gets to send a message to a player via the mod! I've had some of my most fun games as scum with that role. It's brilliant. Don't care much about the fruit vendors, they are w/e.

But this is such a scum role to claim. The hell?

okay so like
i'm town

and also there are more players that are informed joats (2-shot fruit vendor, 2-shot messenger)
my role tells me this...

[Alisae]

I WILL SAY I AGREE WITH YOU
This role can definitely be given to a wolf! Which is why I think there are wolves that have this role pm!

The informed point as well, I imagine 1 wolf can be told that a player is informed of what I know.
I can also imagine the other wolf role is the exact same thing but instead of being told that they're given some information about the setup. This is the only anti-town reason I can think of for suggesting said massclaim and I feel like the pros outweigh the cons.

Like idunno I just think the potential for 2 wolves to have my exact rolecard is very high. Give it a bunch of villagers as well as wolves and you have yourself an idea for a mafia game!

[Aureal]

I don't really feel like Aureal is arguing in good faith. When Myko pushed back on their cross vote, Aureal took an incredulous angle that obviously town should hunt inside people voting them

I'm sorry, are you seriously trying to argue that town should not scumhunt among people who are voting for them??? I think that's often the most natural thing to do- who else is going to have a better perspective on what's accurate about arguments about me than me?

But then, when talking about Herta's vote asked

What makes you certain Herta's vote was RVS?

Which makes me feel like they have not actually looked at Herta at all

And they also have not appeared to make any statement about my own alignment.

So it does not really look like she is hunting in her voters, she is just fighting Myko. Which makes her response in the first quote I pulled feel like it was just a response to win the argument vs talking about what they were doing, which seems more likely to come from scum to me

You want a read on you? You hadn't done much to ping me so you were pretty null, but this post is full of hot garbage so you can have some scum points too. That better?

1) you wildly mischaracterize the very words you quoted, turning me saying it's "often the most natural" thing to do into some sort of proscription that one "should" scumhunt among their own voters. Did you miss that this was in response to myko claiming that one should

not

scumhunt there? Like obviously town should scumhunt wherever there can be scum and that's going to include the people voting for you.

2) have

you

looked into Herta? They've made two posts, it's not hard. I am not convinced the vote must be total RVS, I can see the possibility they had some reasoning for it and I don't know how Alisae especially can be certain without Herta coming back to explain. Are you 100% certain it's total RVS?

3) no really, obviously I'm fighting myko, they're the one giving me ammunition. Without going back to check exactly what your reasoning was, I'm pretty sure you've mostly just talked about how you

feel

about what I say, which isn't really something I can argue. When you start giving specifics like you finally did here, I can start telling you why your reasoning is bad.

[Aureal]

Alisae, do you think your joat role is the only non vanilla role in the game? I'm of the thought that massclaiming in general is bad, and your plan seems like it would nicely narrow the possibilities down for finding people who potentially have more useful roles.

[Wavelength]

2? I think 2 would be the bare minimum.
3? Sounds about right
4? A little bit too much
5? Way too much but possible if both are wolves

This makes me feel like the mass claim would not be as helpful as you think that it would be.

Even if you assume that both scum have the role, there is just enough ambiguity, that the scum could do a 1 claim it and 1 doesn't claim, and the final numbers are still falling in your realm of "possible"

I also am not sure that I agree with the premise, and think that if I were designing a game around that role I would only give it to one scum That role looks like Spicy Vanilla. A Villager/Goon, but with a fun provable name.

So unless you are operating under the assumption that this game is mountainous + Spicy Villagers/Goons, then my expectation would actually be 1 Spicy Goon, and 1 scum PM. And then a couple Spicy villagers +

redacted

And suddenly this mass claim helps the scum team find the redacted.

[Alisae]

Alisae, do you think your joat role is the only non vanilla role in the game? I'm of the thought that massclaiming in general is bad, and your plan seems like it would nicely narrow the possibilities down for finding people who potentially have more useful roles.

It's possible it's not the only non-vanilla role in the game! This is the only con I can see to this but I feel like it's still +EV regardless.

[Wavelength]

I agree with Ari that you seem very unlikely to make this argument this passionately as scum.

Which is good, because I was silently nursing a small but growing scum read on you, and just watching for a bit. And you shattered that.

[Wavelength]

I think that the mass claim on this feels like a day 2 activity personally

[Alisae]

Even if you assume that both scum have the role, there is just enough ambiguity, that the scum could do a 1 claim it and 1 doesn't claim, and the final numbers are still falling in your realm of "possible"

You get it, and I feel like I can identify if they're doing this.
I don't see a reason why both wolves can't have the role tho. If anything, giving the role to both of them gives them the option of deciding which one claims it, which one doesn't claim it. It also gives them the option to not claim at all or claim both. So I think both wolves have the role because it just gives them more options.

I'm with you on your hunt to find bad guys. I think this helps us find bad guys. Seems +EV to me.