Election! | GAME OVER

[Datisi]

We already know why meowth thinks it’s scummy, he said that in his post. “Non-committal”. Not a good reason.

i find that usually there's more thought for people's reads then purely what they said in the thread, but sure -- even if the reason is solely "the post is non-committal, therefore it's scummy" there can be multiple reasons why someone could think that that post itself is scummy for being non-committal. like, again, i don't wanna be putting words in his mouth, but i don't think "he said it's non-committal, therefore he excepts everyone to have a read on everyone by that point in the game, that's unreasonable, therefore he's scum" is a good conclusion to take from it. it feels like you're trying to take the worst implication from it.

[Datisi]

and inb4 "i didn't say he thinks everyone should have a read on everyone by that point" i know. but it is the only potential solution you're putting forward in 1142

[Ausuka]

why are constructed sentences scummy

do you guys usually play scum by constructing your sentences really hard? I don't think that's an effective strategy but maybe I'm out of the loop

[UNOwen]

+1 to GL face pulling

Datisi you are lost. Meow thing doesn’t expect everyone to have a firm opinion but therefore there’s no reason for that specific non-committance to be scummy.

[furtiveglance]

Hello friends I return from my dead brain.

I'm going to spend a lot of today writing on things that aren't mafia because I want to accomplish something today, but tonight I will be around and I'd love to do some live interaction style with players to generate better reads on them? Reading back is something I'll do in due time.

As for plans in the elected thread, they're coming along smoothly. I have some choice paralysis to overcome and make but I feel confident we can do powerful things.

I also have something (work ) to do today

[Datisi]

Meow thing doesn’t expect everyone to have a firm opinion but therefore there’s no reason for that specific non-committance to be scummy.

that is not how mafia works but i am not going to be making answers for him

[GuiltyLion]

do you guys usually play scum by constructing your sentences really hard? I don't think that's an effective strategy but maybe I'm out of the loop

when you are scum you are fabricating your thought processes and that inherently leads to a greater chance of 'constructed sentences'. there's a second order thinking to everything you post ('what is my read on this player, does this post sound believable/real, who am I trying to miseliminate/pocket, etc) that doesn't exist when you are town and makes you more likely to sound a bit robotic/awkward with how you phrase your fake thoughts.

yes, better scum players are able to more convincingly hip fire takes or sound natural but it should be pretty obvious why someone might think a sentence that uses "I think I lean [...] I think" is more likely to come from a player who is making up what they think versus naturally expressing it.

[Ausuka]

do you guys usually play scum by constructing your sentences really hard? I don't think that's an effective strategy but maybe I'm out of the loop

when you are scum you are fabricating your thought processes and that inherently leads to a greater chance of 'constructed sentences'. there's a second order thinking to everything you post ('what is my read on this player, does this post sound believable/real, who am I trying to miseliminate/pocket, etc) that doesn't exist when you are town and makes you more likely to sound a bit robotic/awkward with how you phrase your fake thoughts.

yes, better scum players are able to more convincingly hip fire takes or sound natural but it should be pretty obvious why someone might think a sentence that uses "I think I lean [...] I think" is more likely to come from a player who is making up what they think versus naturally expressing it.

Do people actually play scum this way? Like don't you already know what your reads are and what angle you're coming from when you write a post

Whatever

[furtiveglance]

do you guys usually play scum by constructing your sentences really hard? I don't think that's an effective strategy but maybe I'm out of the loop

when you are scum you are fabricating your thought processes and that inherently leads to a greater chance of 'constructed sentences'. there's a second order thinking to everything you post ('what is my read on this player, does this post sound believable/real, who am I trying to miseliminate/pocket, etc) that doesn't exist when you are town and makes you more likely to sound a bit robotic/awkward with how you phrase your fake thoughts.

yes, better scum players are able to more convincingly hip fire takes or sound natural but it should be pretty obvious why someone might think a sentence that uses "I think I lean [...] I think" is more likely to come from a player who is making up what they think versus naturally expressing it.

I think it's possible that there's a chance people

could

be reading into this

a bit

too much? Because sometimes I'm indecisive as town when I'm genuinely thinking...or sometimes I pretend to think as scum...not sure where I land on this one. Just my 2 cents anyway

[Ausuka]

I think that I will lean towards posting things that I think in this style so I can think harder and show my leanings

[Ausuka]

I don't particularly think it's scummy anymore though

[UNOwen]

I think it's possible that there's a chance people

could

be reading into this

a bit

too much? Because sometimes I'm indecisive as town when I'm genuinely thinking...or sometimes I pretend to think as scum...not sure where I land on this one. Just my 2 cents anyway

Snark = scum?

[Ausuka]

I don't particularly think it's scummy anymore though

Oh no I said the t word

[Ausuka]

ok maybe that one was unnecessary

[furtiveglance]

I think it's possible that there's a chance people

could

be reading into this

a bit

too much? Because sometimes I'm indecisive as town when I'm genuinely thinking...or sometimes I pretend to think as scum...not sure where I land on this one. Just my 2 cents anyway

Snark = scum?

I've done a bit of keen bean as well though, which you lack

[GuiltyLion]

it's not about whether you know ahead of writing the post what you want to say, it's just that what you're saying is inherently

not what you actually think

and so the post is more likely to be expressed artificially and over-use of phrases like "I think" might happen because when you're town you don't need to say "I think" because you just... actually think it

I feel I must be misunderstanding you somehow, do you really mean to argue that there aren't semantic tells between town and scum? you post the exact same way as either alignment?

@furtive - I agree town is often indecisive too, I personally don't think Ausuka's original post was scum-indicative, but the question she's asking strikes me as weird - even if you disagree with UNOwen's assessment of that post, it shouldn't be controversial to suggest that a sentence that feels artificial or like it was produced under unnecessary cognitive load is scummy

[Ausuka]

it's not about whether you know ahead of writing the post what you want to say, it's just that what you're saying is inherently

not what you actually think

and so the post is more likely to be expressed artificially and over-use of phrases like "I think" might happen because when you're town you don't need to say "I think" because you just... actually think it

I feel I must be misunderstanding you somehow, do you really mean to argue that there aren't semantic tells between town and scum? you post the exact same way as either alignment?

@furtive - I agree town is often indecisive too, I personally don't think Ausuka's original post was scum-indicative, but the question she's asking strikes me as weird - even if you disagree with UNOwen's assessment of that post, it shouldn't be controversial to suggest that a sentence that feels artificial or like it was produced under unnecessary cognitive load is scummy

I'm not saying I post the exact same way as either alignment, although I'm not really aware of any differences I think it's definitely possible there's something I know about.

Frankly I do think scumreading people for saying 'I think' is pretty absurd, would have about rand accuracy rate, and not something I recall coming across

[Ausuka]

it's not about whether you know ahead of writing the post what you want to say, it's just that what you're saying is inherently

not what you actually think

and so the post is more likely to be expressed artificially and over-use of phrases like "I think" might happen because when you're town you don't need to say "I think" because you just... actually think it

I feel I must be misunderstanding you somehow, do you really mean to argue that there aren't semantic tells between town and scum? you post the exact same way as either alignment?

@furtive - I agree town is often indecisive too, I personally don't think Ausuka's original post was scum-indicative, but the question she's asking strikes me as weird - even if you disagree with UNOwen's assessment of that post, it shouldn't be controversial to suggest that a sentence that feels artificial or like it was produced under unnecessary cognitive load is scummy

I'm not saying I post the exact same way as either alignment, although I'm not really aware of any differences I think it's definitely possible there's something I don't know about.

Frankly I do think scumreading people for saying 'I think' is pretty absurd, would have about rand accuracy rate, and not something I recall coming across

I'm honestly willing to move on from this anyway

[GuiltyLion]

ok but you're misrepresenting his point, it's not that you said "I think", it's that you said "I think" twice in the same sentence and also the first one was that you "think" that you "lean"

[Bingle]

okay but this information can come out later

This information absolutely needs to come out before the election on D2, and should come out before we decide whether to take the game off of evens today. What you're proposing is to attempt to hide the roles that exist in the game from scum so that scum can't manipulate them to their advantage when the overwhelming probability is that scum already has that info. As for your "We elected on reads, so actual numbers higher" argument, we elected self nominated people in pools of three. BloodBot literally ran unopposed, and Enchant had a landslide victory despite virtually no consensus on their alignment. If you think scum wasn't happy with the way the election panned out you're kidding yourself, because there was very little in the way of actually trying to argue election results.

There is utility in preventing scum from knowing exactly which JOAT has, say, protective abilities, if we're in the incredibly unlikely case that we actually have a pure council. There is more utility in town knowing that there is a JOAT with protective abilities. There's a reason massclaim can break setups, and we're in a setup where scum can't handle the problem via shooting the individual PRs.

And no duh I think I should have access to the mechanical information. I made that clear like a week ago when I said I didn't see a reason to run for the council when the information the council has should basically all be made public anyway.

What tangible gain do you expect to see from not sharing roles?

[Ausuka]

ok but you're misrepresenting his point, it's not that you said "I think", it's that you said "I think" twice in the same sentence and also the first one was that you "think" that you "lean"

k

[Save The Dragons]

Page 31. the bigger you are the townier you are

Furtiveglance

pookythemagicalbear

Datisi

Bingle

SleepyKrew
ActionDan
Enchant

Ausuka

Save the dragons

GuiltyLion

Meowth

Lady Lambdadelta

Herta

Unowen

SirCakez
Bloodb0t

[Bingle]

ok but you're misrepresenting his point, it's not that you said "I think", it's that you said "I think" twice in the same sentence and also the first one was that you "think" that you "lean"

What do you make of the fact that the "I think I wish I wonder" post was empty mechspec and thus likely AI neutral and real thoughts anyway?

Like, there's no motivation to lie or misrepresent thought processes from scumsuka there at all, because scumsuka and townsuka should have the same thoughts on whether it's good to manipulate council voting at that point in time.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

okay but this information can come out later

This information absolutely needs to come out before the election on D2, and should come out before we decide whether to take the game off of evens today. What you're proposing is to attempt to hide the roles that exist in the game from scum so that scum can't manipulate them to their advantage when the overwhelming probability is that scum already has that info. As for your "We elected on reads, so actual numbers higher" argument, we elected self nominated people in pools of three. BloodBot literally ran unopposed, and Enchant had a landslide victory despite virtually no consensus on their alignment. If you think scum wasn't happy with the way the election panned out you're kidding yourself, because there was very little in the way of actually trying to argue election results.

There is utility in preventing scum from knowing exactly which JOAT has, say, protective abilities, if we're in the incredibly unlikely case that we actually have a pure council. There is more utility in town knowing that there is a JOAT with protective abilities. There's a reason massclaim can break setups, and we're in a setup where scum can't handle the problem via shooting the individual PRs.

And no duh I think I should have access to the mechanical information. I made that clear like a week ago when I said I didn't see a reason to run for the council when the information the council has should basically all be made public anyway.

What tangible gain do you expect to see from not sharing roles?

for someone who seems to be acclaimed at mechanics, you sure struggle to read the OP.

Scum apparently have secret roles. Why should I increase the chance they get to use them effectively and backbreakingly by outing information?

You'll have full claims of actions from the whole council before day 2 elections. Not a moment sooner.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Oh, and?

"I didn't run for council because I thought it would all be made public anyway" sure sounds like scum complaining that they thought they did not need to expose themselves to scrutiny and could hide behind a facade of appearing town and still obtain all the information they needed to know, and run for elections later.

And it sounds to me like I've stepped in the way of your ambitions.

Such a shame.