Micro 1070 | a micro normal | Endgame

[Datisi]

you claimed i was not thinking critically and that i was a wolf trying to shut you down from doing this uber amazing strategy

i think ari explained that that's simply not how i view setups (and multiple people agreed with me!!) and i pointed out that i did literally nothing to stop you from the massclaim and even did my part

so what other arguments do you have

[Alisae]

Myko I am very curious on if you have a read on Andante

Mostly ok, doesn't post as much as I feared.

So you might want more votes on datisi, yes? A one vote wagon is a bit lame. Who could join you?

I'm sorry I don't get the question or your point, are you trying to make me come to the conclusion that I'm vanity voting?
I think there are some slots that probably still need to react.

[mykonian]

If it lasts, yes.

So how do you avoid that. There's a bunch of people not really tied to their vote. Who are you getting on your wagon and how?

[Alisae]

you claimed i was not thinking critically and that i was a wolf trying to shut you down from doing this uber amazing strategy

i think ari explained that that's simply not how i view setups (and multiple people agreed with me!!) and i pointed out that i did literally nothing to stop you from the massclaim and even did my part

so what other arguments do you have

WELL
- Your positions could come from a wolf I think your vote on herta is likely to come from a wolf
- You seem like you're playing to an audience
- I don't think you ever addressed my point of that I feel like you were basically just trying to make me look as stupid as possible. This is how I interpret you telling me that you think what I am doing is meaningless and goes no where. I actually think you're killing 2 birds with one stone by going along with it while also saying that it's stupid and pointless. If you're a wolf you like going along with it and you can make me look bad by saying it's stupid and pointless and don't read into mod kekw

[Alisae]

If it lasts, yes.

So how do you avoid that. There's a bunch of people not really tied to their vote. Who are you getting on your wagon and how?

I haven't really consider who and how I just presented the read and I want to see how people react to it.
How is this a productive line of questioning?

[Alisae]

Datisi, how has anything that happened a waste of time btw?

[Alisae]

this feels like outguessing the mod, and considering you spelled out what you are looking for wrt wolves in the massclaim - a complete waste of time.

This is the post it all started from.
Game exploded. It will probably make D1 super readable when looking at it from D3 or D4.
So like how has any of what happened a waste of time?

Even if you think that my idea is bad, was what happened as a result of said discussion a waste of time?

[Datisi]

- herta is scummy
- sure, why is that scummy
- if you think that's how i approach the "let's keep the town busy with dumbshit mechanical arguments" then you have a great misunderstanding of how my scum mind works

[Datisi]

Datisi, how has anything that happened a waste of time btw?

cool misrep.

your mechanical solving and outguessing the mod would've been a waste of time - that is what i claimed. OBVIOUSLY getting people to take stances on the shitfest we've created isn't a waste of time.

would it have been better to have spent that energy arguing actual reads of the game? probably. would it have happened? i don't know.

but quoting my post where i said "this mechanical discussion is a waste of time" and going "but look at the CONTENT that happened AFTER YOU CALLED IT A WASTE OF TIME, how can you think of it as a waste of time???" is disingenuous as fuck

[Alisae]

I think we can agree that Wavelength is pretty townie.
They hold a similar viewpoint to you.
Look how they address me.

2? I think 2 would be the bare minimum.
3? Sounds about right
4? A little bit too much
5? Way too much but possible if both are wolves

This makes me feel like the mass claim would not be as helpful as you think that it would be.

Even if you assume that both scum have the role, there is just enough ambiguity, that the scum could do a 1 claim it and 1 doesn't claim, and the final numbers are still falling in your realm of "possible"

I also am not sure that I agree with the premise, and think that if I were designing a game around that role I would only give it to one scum That role looks like Spicy Vanilla. A Villager/Goon, but with a fun provable name.

So unless you are operating under the assumption that this game is mountainous + Spicy Villagers/Goons, then my expectation would actually be 1 Spicy Goon, and 1 scum PM. And then a couple Spicy villagers +

redacted

And suddenly this mass claim helps the scum team find the redacted.

Engages with my arguments, sees eye to eye with me. Touches on what I see with the 1 claim it 1 don't claim it. Maybe I did a poor job at communicating it, but if they did this I think it we would be able to identify it and I feel like we would have been able to use said information to help us refine reads especially once we get 1 wolf down the line. How I thought of it I thought it could only help us. I think there was like an open setup where there was like 1 wolf in a group of 4 and the other in a group of 5 and I thought we were in a similar situation.

OP says they disagree with the premise, I argue that giving the role to both wolves makes them more flexible in what it is they're allowed to do as it's basically just a glorified goon. Obviously I mentioned why I feel like the powers support this and also why the informed aspect of the role also supports this.

I feel like Datisi's response to reading your suggestion seemed fairly in line with my own: Your base assumption that both scum would JOATs seems overly presumptuous. And the information that you would get from it seems like it would leave a fair bit of ambiguity.

From where I was sitting your scum read on him seemed to stem mostly from a place of : Datisi and I are thinking about this differently, and I think that that difference is because of us having different alignments.

While I think that it is town indicative for you that you came to that conclusion, the argument is not particularly convincing to me, given my thought about the mass claim were actually closer to Datisi's thoughts then yours.

Tries to see eye to eye with me while also disagreeing. Bringing themselves down to my level.

[mykonian]

If it lasts, yes.

So how do you avoid that. There's a bunch of people not really tied to their vote. Who are you getting on your wagon and how?

I haven't really consider who and how I just presented the read and I want to see how people react to it.
How is this a productive line of questioning?

Because I estimate nobody is going to vote Datisi with the game as it is, and it's your problem in a way.

And I'm not impressed with 3 pages of mechanics discussion on day one, you've had your time getting slowly into the game with 1/3rd of the total posts. I see too little substance and your datisi vote might be a thing.

So yes, why wouldn't you be productive about it.

[Datisi]

Engages with my arguments, sees eye to eye with me.

cool. i'd be doing that as scum. enabling you and drowning the thread.

no, this is NOT me saying that wavelength is scum for doing it.

but your "look, this person is discussing with me about my mech ideas wowee and you're not!" is a bad point. this isn't a place where you teach me about manners, this is a place where you discern alignments. and frankly i find it very weird that you would be taking his posts to be so uber townie because he humoured you. you know better than that, surely.

[Alisae]

And then this is Datisi

this feels like outguessing the mod, and considering you spelled out what you are looking for wrt wolves in the massclaim - a complete waste of time.

alright, let's dance

VOTE: alisae

i have designed many normals, and i am notorious for "please don't setup spec, this is a datisi game, god knows what he put in it" - i know mods throw curveballs that you cannot reasonably expect. which is exactly the mindset from which i'm approaching this.

nothing about your role seems "both wolves need to have this role". it's a nothingburger role. and IF, EVEN IF you are correct that all wolves have that role (which you don't necessarily have to be correct about, but for the sake of argument) - what sense does it make that wolves are just gonna claim that role?? "they can't hide" they can just not claim it???

like. if you had gone "btw guys does anyone else have role xyz" and then once people claimed or not claimed, you went "ackchually, i think scum is within people that have this role", i could buy it as a thought process.

but you're telling me that i'm supposed to look at you saying "i have a mystery role, which like i'm totally sure all wolves also have, and also can we claim who all has this role now that i've said it because i think wolves are gonna be honest about their roles" and NOT think it's bullshit?

roles have purposes in setups

the person who sometimes uses roles whose sole purpose is to fuck with the players is telling you to not outguess the mod? amazing. incredible. who would've thought.

i am trying to critically think about things. but unless you explain to me why scum would or wouldn't have the role you claimed, without it being the vague ~oooh mod wouldn't put this in game~ i'm gonna think you're making it up

ANOTHER PLAYER IN THE GAME CAN LITERALLY CONFIRM THAT I'M TELLING THE TRUTH

i don't think you're lying about your role LMAO

i think the "x number of townies and y number of scum are gonna have this role because i can read the mod's mind" is the part that's made up

making town get lost in meaningless mechanical discussion that goes nowhere is one of scumtisi's favourite past times and i would probably entertain your ideas if i were scum here

making town get lost in meaningless mechanical discussion that goes nowhere is one of scumtisi's favourite past times and i would probably entertain your ideas if i were scum here

no
not vs me
and not with what you've posted so far

also this isn't meaningless and this doesn't get us nowhere

no, i think it is

which is exactly why it would be very fun to pretend like i cared about it if i were scum

"outguessing the mod"
"complete waste of time"
"don't setup spec"
"there could be curveballs!"
(btw I don't know how the fuck you got from this that you think I thought both wolves would claim it. I think my whole point was I was just interested in who did come out with it).
"this role could be made to fuck with you!"
Using Hyperbole to make me look worse
"meaningless mechanical discussion"
"gets us nowhere"
"I would go along with you if I was a wolf"

[Alisae]

Engages with my arguments, sees eye to eye with me.

cool. i'd be doing that as scum. enabling you and drowning the thread.

no, this is NOT me saying that wavelength is scum for doing it.

but your "look, this person is discussing with me about my mech ideas wowee and you're not!" is a bad point. this isn't a place where you teach me about manners, this is a place where you discern alignments. and frankly i find it very weird that you would be taking his posts to be so uber townie because he humoured you. you know better than that, surely.

Obviously first line is wine, doesn't really do much for me.

I think wavelength is pretty townie and I think his body of work speaks to that. I think they're been pretty townie this game. Those parts are a part of that but not really the reason why.
I don't get why you're tying my wavelength read into this. I'm just using him as an example because he's obvious town.

[Datisi]

because you showed those posts to be a townie example

unless that was a "wavelength is townie, therefore this reaction is town" in which case why the fuck does his response matter if it was going to be townie no matter what he did

[Alisae]

Datisi, how has anything that happened a waste of time btw?

cool misrep.

your mechanical solving and outguessing the mod would've been a waste of time - that is what i claimed. OBVIOUSLY getting people to take stances on the shitfest we've created isn't a waste of time.

would it have been better to have spent that energy arguing actual reads of the game? probably. would it have happened? i don't know.

but quoting my post where i said "this mechanical discussion is a waste of time" and going "but look at the CONTENT that happened AFTER YOU CALLED IT A WASTE OF TIME, how can you think of it as a waste of time???" is disingenuous as fuck

ok ya that's not fair of me lmfao

[Alisae]

because you showed those posts to be a townie example

unless that was a "wavelength is townie, therefore this reaction is town" in which case why the fuck does his response matter if it was going to be townie no matter what he did

I'm just saying one of them engages in me that is way more likely to come from town there and the other is more likely to come from a wolf

[Datisi]

and i think your "this person was nice to me and humoured me and that is townie and this person was dismissive and said my idea was stupid and that is scummy" is a flawed read that you should absolutely know better but whatever, have fun pushing me on that basis i guess

[Alisae]

Well...
considering how convenient it is for you to have that stance?
ya no
I don't think I will

[Gimli]

Spoiler: page 1 stuff, might have a read or two already

Me, on my way to find some bad guys

VOTE: Aristeia

Too many As. Gotta get rid of some.

I played a newbie with aureal and she started strong and she was town and I think her entrance is nice here playing around the players names and stuff

VOTE: Myko
Holy what a Fossil!
Hello! I never thought I would play a game with ya!

Hiya Lisa, long time no see.

There's a mafiascum meet in ~2 months and I thought I'd see if I remembered how this game was played.


There's too many players who's name starts with A in this game. There's something up with that. I bet there's scum amongst them.

Vote Aristeia

VOTE: Aristeia

Too many As. Gotta get rid of some.

See. You might be alright.

For an A.

I don't know whether to be impressed or distressed by that joke theft.

I like all of this, players are naturally blending together and I feel they're >rand town for it

lol I just realized that there's 4 A's hahahahaha

A's versus the world!

VOTE: Datisi

and I'll agree with the next guy that this is kinda stiff

lol I just realized that there's 4 A's hahahahaha

A's versus the world!

VOTE: Datisi

You can't just go declare the strategy out loud like that! There's more of them than us!

Andante, are you m

a

fi

a

?

Not this game!!

VOTE: Andante

They have had the most stilted entrance so far. ITS THE GUILT

No, its okay. Dont tell me.

I will find them.

wavelength stuff is seriously >rand town, including the 'its okay don't tell me I'll find them', seems like organically processing things as a townie and then bantering their scumread on top of it

Spoiler: page 2, reads get more intense!

Andante you seem really excited to play mafia!

FACTS

Why is that? Not this game seems to imply that you were recently mafia.

lmao yeah I was and had 2 original partners rep out, and that game was stressful, cause what do you really do in that situation? then green pm here? LETS FREAKING GOOOOOO

andante seems TOO OVERLY F'ING EXCITED and IDK but it feels like a townie excitement. could be a fake thing cause it's so over the top but I like it nonetheless.

VOTE: Andante

They have had the most stilted entrance so far. ITS THE GUILT

lameee

This response does make me happy enough with this First Page Read

Andante, who is your partner?

These posts from you really don't seem great
VOTE: Wavelength

feels more like you're trying to assert yourself as this leader "hey all, listen to me, I am the great and powerful"
idk, I'm not a fan. game literally just started

I like the pushback from andante here and then I like later on when wavelength townreads this from andante, I think they're both >rand town for early start.

Huh, that response actually alleviates my issue with the "lameee" response

me voting you makes you no longer concerned with "lameeeeeee"? lmao what? If you have questions just ask, I won't shut up. it's day 1. page 1. I don't have a whole lot to go off of here, usually I show up like 3 hours late, and find something from RVS I can run with, feels odd being here so early lol not sure this is the move for me

good townie push imo

I have no desire to lead, but did try to skip the silly stages of the game

Ahh good attempt, probably should've picked literally anyone else cause picking me will get us no where lol

and this has townie mindset all over.

hello

VOTE: alisae

good night

dats did you roll town finally ?

huh, I hadn't thought about that.

Datisi can be my page one town read.

whats going on with these reads? they seem out of nowhere.

I have no desire to lead, but did try to skip the silly stages of the game

Ahh good attempt, probably should've picked literally anyone else cause picking me will get us no where lol

It got me post 26 from you, which was nice and serious.

Andante you seem really excited to play mafia!

FACTS

Why is that? Not this game seems to imply that you were recently mafia.

Does having recently been Mafia have any bearing on the likelihood of someone being Mafia here?

Answer: no, it does not.

VOTE: Alisae, defend the honor of Roger Rabbit!

That's not really why I went through that line of questioning?
Like yes, having been mafia recently does not have any bearing on the likelihood if them being mafia here. I'm trying to get a read on what alignment this excitement comes from and if it seems fake or not.

I kind of like aureal push even though it's not any good and it feels like WKing on page 2 which is maybe odd, and I kind of like alisae's investigation onto andante's emotions cause it's good perception. not sure if I should townread either. I think alisae is making sense and aureal is not making so much sense but IDK if that means alignment for either yet.

what if all the A's are town

yeah but what if they're all town except for you huh??????????

Spoiler: page 3: the thick plotens

Andante you seem really excited to play mafia!

FACTS

Why is that? Not this game seems to imply that you were recently mafia.

Does having recently been Mafia have any bearing on the likelihood of someone being Mafia here?

Answer: no, it does not.

VOTE: Alisae, defend the honor of Roger Rabbit!

VOTE: Aureal

This does not read like someone who is actually trying to understand what Alisae is doing, and then asking if it is town or scum. It reads like someone who wanted to pick someone to call scum.

this is late page 2 but I wanna point at wavelength and call it a townie once again for posts like these.

I like Wavelength so far. I like his read on Aureal and I like he was the first one to mention it, I kind of thought that the post from Aureal seemed pretty disingenuous.

it makes sense too. I like ali this game.

Makes sense. That sequential questioning style is actually similar to how I tend to play, but I don't tend to get into the swing of a game early on; I either make people think I'm scummy for posting fluff too long or make people think I'm scummy for picking at something they think is silly. And probably even fuzzier on what people are doing right now since I've apparently come down with COVID somehow. Sigh.

Still don't know how you can call that a mediocre movie though. Or a kids movie.

I like the self awareness here and I don't think flipping aureal this gameday is a good thing already, even though I agree her line of reasoning on page 2 can be construed as a fake push and whatnot.

VOTE: mykonian

Hello friend! I'm excited to meet again soon, if only for a short time.

I like Wavelength so far. I like his read on Aureal and I like he was the first one to mention it, I kind of thought that the post from Aureal seemed pretty disingenuous.

I think Wavelength's read on Aureal comes from town almost every time, but I also think Aureal is town.

I'm going to attempt to play D1 slowly. I suspect I'll fail at that.

I think klick is very unlikely to be mafia.

Only real town read so far.

I also liked klick's entrance things and I like the strength of wavelength's read on it even though I might not necessarily agree with that

I don't think that 61 comes from his as scum, for either possible alignment for Aureal.

There is also an attention to detail in his reading of Aureal's posts that reveals intent to sort.

so this is good. I'm writing off wavelength as a townie for now.

What content of Andante's are you townleaning her for and why?

Not sure I'm helping anyone if I answer this. For one, it's 3 pages in and Andante is probably the person I feel most confident I can read anyway, so I might as well wait till I'm not leaning one way or another from a handful of posts. There's no pressing need to answer, Andante isn't even being voted so I imagine you all agree she's pretty town. I also don't have to tell the scum who's the obvious town.

That's a lot of words to say that I don't like you and Klick asking about a townread 3 pages in. Go find some baddies. May I suggest Aureal?

this stinks though.

I have ali/wave/andante
klick/aureal?

as townies

aristeia and mykonian as scummies

I'm hitting send and picking up more parts of the game when I have time. I'm around for a bit for questions if anyone has them!

[Gimli]

I might wanna flip everyone that's on my slot's wagon and that's datisi and aristeia

I fail to see how herta not playing at all, not making a single read, dropping the game and replacing out is scummy. I might get aristeia's POV that this is a meta read so maybe herta just doesn't play when wolf? but I don't get how herta is vibing scummy, you know what I'm saying? it feels opportunistic in a 9er with a bunch of incredibly towny players.

[Gimli]

I'm continuing to read cause this game is fun.

question to datisi: how come you're not reading obvtown alisae as obvtown alisae?

[Datisi]

they're not obvtown. they're pushing me based on nonsense. i've explained as such, which you can see when you read.

[mykonian]

I fail to see how herta not playing at all, not making a single read, dropping the game and replacing out is scummy.

Yes, it has been a bad wagon, who's the worst vote on there?

[Gimli]

Spoiler: page 4/5 many things many posts

You'll have to get it from my insistence that Aureal is the one we'd want to vote. Aureal would be playing more or less the same way regardless of what else had happened this game, they are going through the motions of their normal game without actually "playing" their normal game.

That describes scum to me.

I have to say I like mykonian's reasoning for doubting aureal, I think it's quite an acute perspective and for someone who hasn't mafia in a while it looks like a real scumhunting attempt and not faking it. 'going with the motions' is definitely a scum strategy for some people and it makes sense to scumread someone who's openly stating what their normal game should look like and whatnot.

I do townread aureal regardless but I might also start townreading myko as well.

You'll have to get it from my insistence that Aureal is the one we'd want to vote. Aureal would be playing more or less the same way regardless of what else had happened this game, they are going through the motions of their normal game without actually "playing" their normal game.

That describes scum to me.

What is this based off of? Experience?

I'm not sure I understand your question.

I'm reading that she's going through the motions. That she's just playing how it always goes. That's in her posts.

I think if you are town you don't have to do that, you just read the posts and play. As scum you have to play as you always do.

So she's scum. I'm not quite sure where experience comes into this.

more of that good towny read imo.

huh, I hadn't thought about that.

Datisi can be my page one town read.

what

why

Also, iirc Dat would love to get away with a post like that as scum.

with a post like what. 9? in what universe is that a post that is exciting or cheeky for scumtisi to make?

Is there some reason u didn’t poke Ari here?

why do you think i should be poking ari there

From what I remember you like to poke @ people who have a read on your slot and Ari also got a tr from ur post apparently. I cant help but notice u left her out

maybe i will townread you this time you never know!

well i am town this time, so i hope!

normally he just pockets me by being sweet and kind - I am quite helpless against his charisma.

you'd think I'd like learn but I am quite bad at that and it feels nice to be in his pocket safe & sound.

I think there's scum between ari and dati and I think this whole thing is a little awkward.

Have you ever seen town go through the motions before?

Probably.

Got anything better?

Aureal's way of playing thus far lines up really well with her stated way of approaching the game in a way that runs counter to the reasons she's getting early suspicion

She's an easy target

My current theory is that there are indeed two A's on the scumteam and you voted the two wrong ones myko

I spent way too long trying to come up with a zingy way of expressing my Andante/Alisae tinfoil

strengthening my klick townread.

Aureal's way of playing thus far lines up really well with her stated way of approaching the game in a way that runs counter to the reasons she's getting early suspicion

She's an easy target

And that doesn't bother you, that they more or less open with: "this is how I always play, please don't vote me for it". Instead of just.. playing?

It's an easy target because it's the right target. Going for Andante we are going to do at some point, I don't think they get through an early game often. She's easy. You are the pot calling the kettle black here.

Not really I'd expect that kind of response from town more often than scum
This is a difference in philosophy where you seem to look for how you think town *should* play when they are doing what they should be doing
Whereas I look for how I think town *will* play without any particular expectation of quality
I remember this from playing with you previously

The only game I remember playing with Andante was a game that just ended and she was the most widely townread scum player
I didn't realise she normally doesn't get through early game?

she was the most widely townread scum player

The most widely townread player overall, even

that doesn't help my andante townread, lol.

one more time Dats <3

VOTE: Andante

one more time Dats <3

i am town, and i hope you're town with me so that we can finally win together <3

anyway uh
klick town
herta and myko alos scummy

i am very good at game

If what I was doing is similar to your play how come you couldn't identify it? I don't think it should be that hard to pick up on.

This seems to miss the point. Having a similarity in style doesn't give me insight into your thoughts on what to question. I'll try to be more aware of it now but the followup talk about Mafia teammates hadn't registered as an attempt to sort linked to the question about having been Mafia recently, just early game chitchat. Why do you think it should be that clear, when you don't present your thought process until I said something? You didn't even come to any conclusion.

@Aureal

Did you vote Alisae because you found thier questioning of Andante scummy, or would you say it was just an RVS vote?

Do you have even a read on her, even a weak one?

A little of both, but just that question specifically, as I hadn't really connected it to the later stuff. It just kind of stuck out like a possible attempt to color perceptions of Andante, which would be kind of silly as it's obviously invalid reasoning but I could see it having an effect anyway. People aren't perfectly logical.

I suppose at this point I have a vague townread on Alisae. While they're being a bit uncharitable, I do like that there was a thought process behind the talk about past Mafia games; and more importantly, that they didn't feel the need to force a conclusion out of it.

VOTE: mykonian

I don't think that 61 comes from his as scum, for either possible alignment for Aureal.

There is also an attention to detail in his reading of Aureal's posts that reveals intent to sort.

Can you paint me a better picture here. I'm missing how you got this conclusion.

I feel like if Klick is a wolf that could be pretty easy to fake, I imagine the process is just him pointing out what he sees.

Abstract mental calculus around the variables of [that being the only thing in the entirety of the first few pages which he commented on at all], [the angle in which he read and presented an alternative view of Aureal] [attention of detail of it] vs a world in which they are scum/town, and a world in which they are scum partners.

I doubt that painted a better picture, but that will have do. I don't know that convincing you of my read on Klick all that high of a priority for me atm, seeing as he is at *checks vote count* zero votes, and we are still in early day 1, so who is even married to their reads at this point?

wave/ali/klick

aureal/andante

myko

ari/datisi

I'm not sure if ari and datisi make much sense together due to the way they interacted earlier on but ofc I'm not solving the game on page 5, so this is where my reads went.