Newbie 2118 | Terrieresque! - Day 4

[JasonWazza]

Kinda concerns me that you managed to find that in 6 minutes.

[Merlyn]

egopost
UNVOTE:
Going afk pretty much right now, I'll start reading later tonight but probably never finish so if there's anything in particular you think I should look back at, please point it out.

Everyone's current reads, but you probably already know that. For you, I would in particular look at the all-encompassing fight that your predecessor was a part of that kind of dominated the early pages, leading up to your predecessor claiming. It kind of took over the early game and influenced the way a lot of us think (either thinking town or thinking scum) of your slot, and also I think influencing the way a lot of us think about Jason (again either thinking town or scum, a lot of it comes from that fight).

[Merlyn]

@Alianna, have you had a chance to get some reads going yet?

[Umlaut]

Kinda concerns me that you managed to find that in 6 minutes.

Well when I see the words "claimed tracker" at the very top of the page I replace in on it's kind of a tip-off.

[JasonWazza]

Makes sense, didn't recheck the page and notice that we were still on a page with that sort of discussion.

[Umlaut]

Page 1-5 thoughts

• JW and SSK reaction to Delta's vote is kind of over the top. SSK more so because I sort of understand the semantic debate JW and Delta got into about what 'random' means whereas SSK's response just seems omgus-y.
  
• 40 (Merlyn) - Oh, Merlyn gets it.
  
• 44 (Kowahbunga) is a really silly response.
  
• 52 (JasonWazza) - we all understand what Delta is saying so what's the point in continuing to litigate the meaning of words? But I sort of think Jason doesn't get this heated about it as scum so sure, this can be a townlean.
  
• 60 (Merlyn) - Reasonable reaction to a bad post by Delta.
  
• 63 (Merlyn) - Unvoting a scumread just because E-2? Roll to disbelieve.
  
• 65 (MafiaSSK) - noncommittal me-too is +scum.
  
• 66 (SeeEmpty) - good post but probably NAI overall.
  
• 70 (MafiaSSK) - "why so much defensiveness?" about someone who is being attacked is yikes.
  
• 74 (JasonWazza) -
  
• 78 (JasonWazza) - this explanation seems to require Delta to be town tho?
  
• 83 (Merlyn) - forming associative reads based on unflipped scumreads is a bad habit; moreover this readlist has basically no usable content at all and is +scum.
  
• 86 (SeeEmpty) - I'm sort of mind-melding here.
  
• 87 (Mewtaph) - Good reads, good vote.
  
• 88 (JasonWazza) - Bad reads, meh vote.
  
• 89 (Merlyn) - Fair question, but awkward timing to pop up in thread right after being voted.
  
• 96 (bewolkt) - Oh, I like you.
  
• 101 (T3) - I agree with the characterization of what Delta and Jason were doing but I don't think that makes Jason scum? Latching onto deviant/unorthodox play as scummy is a fairly common newbtown error.
  
• 102 (SeeEmpty) - right question
  
• 104 (Merlyn) - You said what you found wild, not why you found it wild.
  
• 106 (JasonWazza) - calling out Merlyn for the right reasons, good post.
  
• 108-112 (MafiaSSK) - not making me feel any better about this slot
  
• 119 (MafiaSSK) - loaded question
  
• 124 (Merlyn) - this is... actually OK. Not great but could come from town with whom I just disagree about what constitutes meaningful pressure.

Incidentally I probably would have made the same vote as Delta for the same reason (just because it's the biggest wagon) though I wouldn't have gotten into a slapfight over the semantics of it. But it looks like useful stuff came out of the slapfight so what do I know.

[Kowahbunga]

I'm going to actively sheep Umlaut from here. I need to see flips now.

[Umlaut]

Page 6-10 thoughts

• 125 (Kowahbunga) - sigh
  
• 128 (MafiaSSK) - aren't you still voting Delta? Why would you have a problem with someone voting your top scumread?
  
• 130 (MafiaSSK) - how did you feel about her before that post?
  
• 137 (SeeEmpty) - more goodposting
  
• 139 (Kowahbunga) - kind of think this certainty more likely comes from town but this is a lean at best.
  
• 141 (Kowahbunga) - reads genuine but NAI, if this is how they play then they would say so honestly as either alignment.
  
• 143 (MafiaSSK) - this vote is absolute BS.
  
• 146 (Merlyn) - misrepping bewolkt. They weren't pushing a townread on Mewtaph, they were asking you to justify your own read.
  
• 147 (Kowahbunga) - seems to contradict their stated "you're just scum" read on Delta.
  
• 159 (MafiaSSK) - ...okay, fair
  
• 161 (Kowahbunga) - lazy read
  
• 167 (Kowahbunga) - I disagree with pretty much every word of this post but it's NAI, even if they're scum they almost certainly really believe this
  
• 174 (MafiaSSK) - seriously are you reading this game at all
  
• 181 (Kowahbunga) - this self-defense doesn't make me feel any better about you. If you already thought Delta was scummy on page 2 why weren't you voting him then?
  
• 186-187 (T3) - unreadable as always!
  
• 192 (MafiaSSK) - this strikes me as mafia trying to be off the lim wagon but I admit I'm a bit biased to see SSK as scum at this point.
  
• 196 (MafiaSSL) - do you or don't you believe T3's characterization of their usual voting pattern? If you believe it then it's NAI here, if you don't believe it then feel free to meta dive them and disconfirm, but there's no point in arguing about it.
  
• 201 (bewolkt) - Oh, maybe I don't like you.
  
• 205 (Kowahbunga) - no, no, town definitely should not accept an elimination of the one person they know is town.
  
• 207 (Mewtaph) - not great but seems more townlurky than scumlurky to me.
  
• 211 (Merlyn) - stating the obvious
  
• 213 (Merlyn) - okay, I can't help but smile at this.
  
• 214 (JasonWazza) - what do you mean "second scum"? Who's the first scum?
  
• 216 (bewolkt) - we're on the same page here.
  
• 218 (MafiaSSK) - this response is just sulking about being caught in an unfair way
  
• 226 (Mewtaph) - I think openly saying that a pressure vote is a pressure vote is a good way to undermine it, so not that surprising if Merlyn didn't do that.
  
• 229 (Kowahbunga) - true but obvious

If I had to vote right now it would be SSK, no question.

Fortunately I don't have to vote right now! Eight pages to go.

[Umlaut]

...which I'm not going to read right now because I'm starting to get into "look at the words but don't actually read anything" mode, I'll get back to this in a bit. Ask me questions about what I have so far if you've got 'em.

[JasonWazza]

214 (JasonWazza) - what do you mean "second scum"? Who's the first scum?

Will at least respond to this, this post was directed at Merlyn, at the time, i was being quite dickish, felt like a lot of people weren't actually responding to everything (i come from back in the day, and i recall people being way more responsive to things) but Merlyn was voting Mewtaph, and basically ignoring everyone else (at least how it felt at the time, reread tells me i'm being a dick) and i was trying to get Merlyn to commit to more then the read list they posted with nothing in it.

[Alianna]

Here's three quarters of a readslist.
I didn't address absolutely everything, only the things that stuck out to me. If anyone wants me to comment on a specific thing that I haven't, I can.

Umlaut

Innocent until proven guilty. There are three setups where this claim could be real and two where it could be fakeclaimed without an immediate counter. If it’s B2, that claim probably gets disproven by flips. If we get to ELo and it’s evident we’re in either A2 or C2, we can re-evaluate the slot if needed.

Merlyn

60 and 280 feel like really genuine confusion. That could technically come from either alignment but my gut says town.
I think the non-committal readslist in 83 can be chalked up to her being a new player.
124 is a good response to the pressure from Delta, ditto for 224 with Jason. Also ditto for 233 as a response to Mewtaph’s questioning.
And an overall newbie town vibe.

bewolkt

Generally solid posting, nothing really scummy to point out.
I’ve got a theory that this might be towny scum though. We’ll see. Not something I want to pursue right yet.

T3

Meh, but I don’t want to execute this today.

Mewtaph

Meh. Just meh.

JasonWazza

The initial push on Delta feels like Jason is trying to find any point they can to make Delta look bad and exaggerate it.

Spoiler: quotes

Jason, can you clarify for me if your vote is still RVS?

Nope, not RVS, kinda weird to be random past the first vote.

I'd think a hammer vote would be ending the day early.

My aim is ending RVS nice and early, which is a fairly key distinction to make.

Then place an actual vote, not a random one?
Random 3 Vote =/= ending RVS.

This doesn't make much sense to say, since at that point, there was nothing for Delta to base a non-random vote on. I don't think that E-2 was inconsistent with wanting to end RVS quickly.

Gets us talking, gets us out of random voting and into the good stuff. RVS is a fundamentally useless stage of the game and the sooner we can break out of it, the better.

Scum would would RVS to continue for as long as possible to mitigate the amount of healthy, productive conversation we can all have.

He says while grandstanding and sticking to a random vote to try and stiffle discussion for as long as possible with the excuse of "but other people haven't said anything yet"

Do you want us out of RVS, or do you want to stick to RVS?

This is a stretch. I kind of see the grandstanding accusation, but I don't get the "trying to stifle discussion."

Let the record show that I started a discussion on page one of the game, and Jason and MafiaSSK are jumping down my throat for *checks notes* stifling discussion.

Let the record show that you are only generating discussion by *checks notes* being a mafia and trying to stall to burn time.

Like seriously, look at your own posts, each of them is an attempt to stop the discussion and stall, they aren't proper discussion questions, they are useless questions meant to stop a conversation then and there.

Well that's nonsense.

You're literally talking about it.

You're welcome

Example, there is nothing here, other then grandstanding about how you stopped RVS (you didn't)

There's more value to seeing reactions from the wider playerbase than placing my vote on you.

Stop misrepresenting my vote. It was not random. I very deliberately placed someone at E-2 in #11 and trying to paint me as doubling down on something random when that isn't the case is a vast misrepresentation of what's being accomplished here.

And here, you are basically telling me to stop talking and let other people weigh in, that's called trying to burn time.

Like hell, your still trying to focus on the theory of how your vote generates content, and not on the fact that you trying to stiffle it by saying "Stop talking this conversation is done"

All while still not voting your real opinion on me and sticking to your semi-RANDOM vote (it's still random if the only aim is E-2).

I realize Delta's approach was quite abrasive, but these are such misrepresentations of what they actually said. There's little basis to claim that they wanted anyone to stop talking, that they were trying to stifle/shut down discussion, or that they were "burning time."
Counter-example to the "stifling discussion" thing: 32 and 33 questioning SSK on their logic, looks pretty solvey to me.
There's nothing that suggests Jason is even considering the possibility of town!Delta here, and this is page 2.

That last piece does change later (sort of), but it's still overall a scummy-looking push.
That pattern basically just continues, so I won't quote any more posts from it unless someone wants me to.

I might have considered "maybe this is too scummy to be scum," but then they said they'd do it as scum.
I really don't know what to think of them wanting to execute Delta after that claim. A tracker claim can probably be proven or disproven pretty easily later on. Maybe it's the tunnel vision?
The readslist in 347 is alright. I see what they mean about the SSK/Kowah associatives being odd. Case on T3 is kind of shaky though, I don't think I agree with it.

Spoiler: another quote

Vibes. Also as I said previously I don't think Scum!Jason would commit to an argument like this for as long as they have because it is massively contrived. I get the impression that it's vastly overzealous town because of just how committed they are to the bit.

I don't see a world where scum (esp. experienced) run a gambit this risky. It's all risk and almost no reward - one mislim when town is entitled to a minimum of 2 doesn't work well mathematically for scum, and if I had been flipped, who would you all have focused on tomorrow as the main proponent of my lim?

Thats why I think Jason is town.

And that's why you are just bad at this game, i absolutely would do this as scum, your just too blind to see the actual town things i have done that i wouldn't have as scum.

I wouldn't try to gain content for 10 pages and then give up, i would have seen the town was being useless, and talked circles around you till you are limed way earlier.

This "gambit" has no risk, because i am right that we should continue the lim regardless with a PR claim that is the scum claim of choice, and can't necessarily be countered.

I swear Jason contradicted this somewhere, but I can't find it. Mostly just noting it here in case I do find it.

I do have things to say about their recent mechposting, but I'll comment on that tomorrow.
I won't discount the possibility of town!Jason, but I find it very easy to see a world where this is scum.

SeeEmpty, Kowahbunga

I'll get to these tomorrow. It's late and my brain is fried.

[Alianna]

If I had to vote right now it would be SSK, no question.

I don't actually know what my predecessor was doing.

[JasonWazza]

I really hope there is something decent in those last 2 reads, because that's kind of a nothing reads list.

[JasonWazza]

Honestly I think Alianna goes on my acceptable to lim list.

[Alianna]

No promises. This has been a difficult game to get into and I’m not trying to have all the answers right this second.
Also, I forgot to UNVOTE: .

[fferyllt]

V1.10

Bull Terrier/Corgi Mix, "Borgi"

JasonWazza (2): T3, SeeEmpty
bewolkt (1): Mewtaph
Kowahbunga (1): Merlyn
Mewtaph (1): bewolkt
T3 (1): JasonWazza

Not Voting (1):

Kowahbunga, Umlaut, Alianna

With 9 alive it takes 5 votes to eliminate

Deadline: April 7, 8 PM US Eastern Time

Countdown: (expired on 2023-04-07 17:00:00)

Mod Notes

• 

[bewolkt]

What do you mean with the mehs?

[bewolkt]

Anyway, I guess we should start aligning for the lim? We have a little bit more than 30 hours

[Umlaut]

Anyway, I guess we should start aligning for the lim? We have a little bit more than 30 hours

Deadline is wrong in the latest vc, I think, there was more time added after the replace-ins. I think we have more like 60 hours.

@mod

can you verify this?

(I should be trying to get back to sleep but happened to see this while failing to do that)

[Mewtaph]

UNVOTE:

[Mewtaph]

I read all of 435, there's a lot of words there just basically saying they scumreads Jason. Reads as more likely to come from scum than town imo.

[JasonWazza]

And committing to no other read other then Merlyn as town, which i mean, i think most of the town has that read.

[T3]

Kinda concerns me that you managed to find that in 6 minutes.

I get the logic behind this, but I think the way Jason expresses this scumread is bad.

[SeeEmpty]

@Jason - You seem to have missed my question at post 417. I'm still interested in the few things that you think Kowah's play was odd. Do you mind sharing them?

[fferyllt]

Anyway, I guess we should start aligning for the lim? We have a little bit more than 30 hours

Deadline is wrong in the latest vc, I think, there was more time added after the replace-ins. I think we have more like 60 hours.

@mod

can you verify this?

(I should be trying to get back to sleep but happened to see this while failing to do that)

The last vote count has been fixed with the new deadline. Thanks!