Mini 2297 | Conception | Postgame

[IceDragon70]

unofficial vc, at your service!

icedragon70 (4): actiondan, rautherdir, abnegation, feysal
rautherdir (3): enchant, icedragon70, furtiveglance
hugir (1): the keeper

not voting (5): bluesnakelet, goldfishfromthemoon, hugir, kawaiikame, hell froze over

Thanks!

@Blue, Kawaii, Hugir - may I have your thoughts on the Rauther wagon?
If you think it's a good wagon, why not vote it?
If you think it's bad, what's your alternative wagon?

[IceDragon70]

@Abnegation would you be kind enough to do a non official VC? I am just lazy here.

Why ask Abnegation specifically?

I know she loves doing them

[IceDragon70]

Cmon Dragon entertain me with claim.

Okay
All caught up now.
I am Ambition.
I don't really understand the relationahip between flavor and mechanics, because I basically prevent a player of my choice from being roleblocked. Which is just weird.

That was also why I speculated about scum having a roleblock and said I weren't surprised by Rautherdir's claim.

the flavour is that you give other people ambition to do their actions even if someone tries to stop them.

Makes sense i guess.

[IceDragon70]

it could be that they're scum and either invocation or the other scum faction has a roleblocker.
idk how that interacts with a checker.
my idea of setup design is to grab a bunch of roles and modifiers, throw them all in a blender, and hope the final product isn't too messed up.

How likely do you figure it is that scum would have this role?

[IceDragon70]

Also can I please ask what's exactly your reasoning for voting me? Is it just my interaction with ActionDan?

[Alianna]

Also can I please ask what's exactly your reasoning for voting me? Is it just my interaction with ActionDan?

it is.
i'm not really sold on rauther, so i don't have anywhere better to vote.

[Abnegation]

Also can I please ask what's exactly your reasoning for voting me? Is it just my interaction with ActionDan?

it is.
i'm not really sold on rauther, so i don't have anywhere better to vote.

i was doing SO WELL at not altslipping and look at me now!

[Abnegation]

it could be that they're scum and either invocation or the other scum faction has a roleblocker.
idk how that interacts with a checker.
my idea of setup design is to grab a bunch of roles and modifiers, throw them all in a blender, and hope the final product isn't too messed up.

How likely do you figure it is that scum would have this role?

hmm.
i think this is a role that could plausibly be given to either alignment. however, there is one thing that could point to you being town. if you're scum with only one partner, which is likely in a mini multiball like this one, there's really only one player you'd want to use the ability on (except in niche situations). if they die, your faction's power is just gone. that's pretty swingy.

[Abnegation]

there are scenarios where that argument isn't relevant though.
you could be scum with more than one partner.
you could only be claiming part of your role.
or enchant could just be correct about this:

benediction could be a benign scum group but i don’t know that it’s wise to make assumptions yet.

I'm not making assumptions one way or another, just pointing out a potential slip. Like I said, day two or once we get some flavor we might get more insight into what is happening in regards to what the threats to Invocation are.

It's not slip. RH9 are fan of multiballs and townsided of hell setups.

[KawaiiKame]

We need momentum
VOTE: IceDragon70

[furtiveglance]

We need momentum
VOTE: IceDragon70

IceDragon has just been unvoted a couple times...the momentum's with the Rautherdir wagon if anything?

Also, why is 'momentum' your big criterion for a vote?

[Feysal]

Nuh uh! You'll have to pretty ambitious to try and kill me tonight.

That was a pretty forced-sounding crumb btw.

Damn. Honestly, this crumb was the main reason I was suspicious of you. I thought you were hinting at being bulletproof or a treestump, and could not figure out why you would say this if that was the case. I also had a hunch you wanted to stop the setup discussion, as if there was something you did not want the town to think of.

Now what do we do? I honestly would not mind switching to KawaiiKame, but do we even have enough time for another wagon? They only have four posts, and no content whatsoever.

[Abnegation]

unfortunately, i don't think that's ai for them. we could try flashwagoning them though if you want to.

[Abnegation]

We need momentum
VOTE: IceDragon70

we have 6 hours left, we need an execution.
could you share reads if you've got any?

[KawaiiKame]

I will say my role name sounds much more powerful then the actual ability actually is. I'm actually not sure at all how to use my role to any benefit, though it is role madness so uh... maybe there's some use to even something like what I have?

You're not the only one. And I have seen the most useless roles turning out to be very beneficial in the end.

I think it's not more letter eating like "scum not scum" it's more that you assume that one of teams could benefit town which is not assumption commonly made.

Given the name Benediction for the green team, this is an understandable assumption though. But I think this is exactly why we were told not to rely on flavor. I have been in games where good and evil did not match with town and scum factions, and this looks like one of them.

I have only ever seen one informed minority that was actually compatible with the town. But the twist was that they

were

still threats to the town, but they did not realize it. I figured it out because I was a serial killer in that game, and my win condition was weird too. We managed to organize a shared victory between town and all third parties, but when one of them found out I was right about us being considered threats, he blew up in a way that got him modkilled.

The stretch to entertain the idea they aren't reads to me as a possible play to fake a dumb not-benediction faction tell more than honest concern.

I disagree. If memory serves, this kind of confusion usually comes from an uninformed perspective, therefore Rautherdir probably is town.

By the way - it was not Enchant who associated green with claiming scum in the first place. They were echoing Dragon, who did it first.

Is this game predicated on finding what faction is the town faction? I like you saying that only one informed minority was actually compatible with town, does an uniformed minority potentially exist/does only an uniformed majority exist? I like this post a lot, an informed minority compatible with town ending up being a threat to town is highly useful info, same with Rauth feeling uniformed thus most likely town

I like this post a lot this deep analysis feels town to me

[KawaiiKame]

Wait, this has already started?

@Narration, I did not receive a daystart PM.

Wait a sec while I read the thread...

This... is actually a massive towntell, right?
I think if Blue is scum he'd have, like, he'd know the day started by either scum PT locking or his buddy telling him, right?

A social deduction game is a game in which players attempt to uncover each other's hidden role or team allegiance. Commonly, these games are played with teams, with one team being considered "good" and another being "bad". During gameplay, players can use logic and deductive reasoning to try to deduce one another's roles, while other players can bluff to keep players from suspecting them.

Who do you think is bluffing to avoid being scumread?

[ActionDan]

Hi I am here now.

First just want to touch on this:

Ice can you specifically tell me what made my iso worse than Keeper's at the time?

Hi I've been away, only come back now.
To answer your question: I didn't actually look at Keeper's ISO - I think I had either missed them or otherwise had had a light town read on them. Right now however they are null and scum by default.

This would explain why you never called them out for not voting Rauth but its trading one inconsistency for another in that you had claimed to read all ISOs by that point. Anyway I don't want to relitigate this topic but my head is saying that your execution would be higher value than a lurker execute as sympathetic as I am towards one.

What remains to be done now is to see if Rauth would be the better option and for that I've got a couple hours to spend reading and rendering a verdict. So starting that process now.

[KawaiiKame]

We need momentum
VOTE: IceDragon70

we have 6 hours left, we need an execution.
could you share reads if you've got any?

I'm liking feysal with what I'm seeing, enchant feels okay, straight up claiming green is nai in rvs is nai to me, rauth feels slight town/null, I'm not liking that furitive is wagon flipping though this might be how town furitive acts, 0 conviction, I feel you okay, we do need an execution

Wait furitive said the momentum is with raith but I'm not feeling it
*rauth

[Feysal]

Unfortunately, I don't think that's ai for them. We could try flashwagoning them though if you want to.

I agree it is null, but right now I think both the alternatives are more likely to be town than a shot in the dark. And there is the theory that when multiple replacements happen, they are

slightly

more likely to be scum, because knowing you lost a partner can be demoralizing. Yes, I admit that is weak.

I'm setting my clock to wake me before the deadline, should I need to change my vote.

UNVOTE: IceDragon70
VOTE: KawaiiKame

*SNIP*

Is this game predicated on finding what faction is the town faction? I like you saying that only one informed minority was actually compatible with town, does an uninformed minority potentially exist/does only an uninformed majority exist? I like this post a lot, an informed minority compatible with town ending up being a threat to town is highly useful info, same with Rauth feeling uninformed thus most likely town.

I like this post a lot this deep analysis feels town to me.

Uhh... what...?

Seriously, I was not analyzing anything with this post. I was just sharing an anecdote from years ago, and its only relevance was how rare it is to have non-town factions that can win with town.

[Hell Froze Over]

Unfortunately, I don't think that's ai for them. We could try flashwagoning them though if you want to.

I agree it is null, but right now I think both the alternatives are more likely to be town than a shot in the dark. And there is the theory that when multiple replacements happen, they are

slightly

more likely to be scum, because knowing you lost a partner can be demoralizing. Yes, I admit that is weak.

I'm setting my clock to wake me before the deadline, should I need to change my vote.

UNVOTE: IceDragon70
VOTE: KawaiiKame

*SNIP*

Is this game predicated on finding what faction is the town faction? I like you saying that only one informed minority was actually compatible with town, does an uninformed minority potentially exist/does only an uninformed majority exist? I like this post a lot, an informed minority compatible with town ending up being a threat to town is highly useful info, same with Rauth feeling uninformed thus most likely town.

I like this post a lot this deep analysis feels town to me.

Uhh... what...?

Seriously, I was not analyzing anything with this post. I was just sharing an anecdote from years ago, and its only relevance was how rare it is to have non-town factions that can win with town.

A few hours until deadline and you start a new wagon?

WTF is this.

VOTE: Rauth

Fine with Dragon as well, but not sure Feysal is on about.

-Drew

[Feysal]

In short, I've lost faith in either alternative wagon being on scum. I know the odds of this going anywhere are slim at best. I will be here before the deadline to change my vote if needed.

[Feysal]

Okay, one more reply since I can't seem to get to sleep with this in my head. I mentioned I would not mind switching to KawaiiKame, and suddenly they declare a town read on me, misreading an almost irrelevant anecdote as "deep analysis". I mean... huh? What the hell is up with that reaction?

[ActionDan]

Popping in while working on another (what's turning out to be lengthy) Rauth post to briefly corroborate that feeling about Kawaii. Well I mean I liked that post of yours too but Kawaii does feel like they are exaggerating there and their posts on this page alone are weird af.

[ActionDan]

There is a lot to track here and I'm going over it with a fine tune comb. I'm going to start with Feysal's rauth vote (since undone later) and reasons.

Here the speculation whether Benediction was regular scum went on rather too long, and it occurs to me that Benediction would have a vested interest in getting us to believe they were not a threat. And for that, Rautherdir was largely responsible for.

... Rautherdir, who suspected Enchant of scumslipping for their belief Benediction would be scum.

Wait a minute... how does one simultaneously theorize Benediction being benign, and suspect someone of slipping they were not?

I think this is more or less the essence of the points against Rauth aside from the their scumhunting abilities which really didn't exist for a while and the questionable impetus behind the claim all of which still holds.

1) did Rauth go on about the possibility of Benediction being special in some way as benign for far too long? Definitely so. There are many posts which were interactions on the topic with others so I don't fault that entirely but there are also plenty of extraneous ones too though which are complete filler. The following would be examples 81 and 82, 87-89, 123, 137, somehow still a thing in 185... 214 I'm being generous. The fact that I was able to create this absurd list of posts is a but a taste of how speculatively exhausting Rauth's posts during this time period are, not limited to this one topic. Think claims (their own and the miller), Musings about the IC role even if not serious. Is all this scummy? I can't help but think yes. at some point there has to be some self-awareness of posting something like say 239 and maybe thinking along the lines of "well have I been doing a good job being my best townie self?" and just realizing no definitely not lol.

2) Took a second to think about if the accusation about Enchant potentially being scum because he implied green was scum as a scumslip is possible in the same headspace as bringing up the possibility that benediction is benign. That in itself is fine. The proposed slip at the time was that town couldn't be sure benediction was scum thus Enchant rolling with a fake green scum claim was not town. That narrowly works. I mean that would also imply everyone who thought that way was slipping but poor enchant was the first to publicly hard assume green scum are in fact scum. And Theres the other problem with that entire interaction, it deserves its own section:

Hmm. To be honest I was baiting to see who would agree with my stance or not, thus why I kept mentioning it as a possibility throughout the day. As mentioned Benediction would probably jump onto something like that as a chance to be town... so after reading through again (Unfortunately not everyone has commented on it, was hoping a bit more time would offer that but nope.)

I've reread all the early parts of the ISO. And I don't believe this; that is I think this is a straight up lie. Note this comes after votes on the wagon plus posts 356, 418 and 424; aside from the last two being very salient points and good posts about the situation I mention them also because they created pressure whereby what I quoted from Rauth above came into being as a way to try to undercut the points in them. Why do I not believe that what I quoted from Rauth above? Well simply posts like the discussion around enchants "scumslip" would never come into being , the point would have never carried water. so you wouldn't see 45, 53, 60!, 136!!

I don't think I could say anything one way or the other that would overshadow the above paragraph so I'm pretty set now.

UNVOTE: Ice
VOTE: Rauth

[ActionDan]

Two hours left btw who is here?